Sherlock Holmes and guineas

[paperbackwriter]

In the column In Britain, what's the difference between a pound and a guinea?, the questioner mentions that he came across these terms in Sherlock Holmes stories. The questioner could reasonable be left with the question of why guineas are mentioned so frequently if, as Cecil says, the guinea was not minted after 1813. The world of Doyle's stories was assumed to be London contemporary with the writings, from 1887 (A Study in Scarlet) to 1927 (The Case Book of Sherlock Holmes). Why did a currency that hadn't physically existed for at least 74 years get mentioned so often?

I have heard the explanation that gentlemen were paid in guineas, and tradespeople were paid in pounds. So that a lawyer maybe charged you 10 guineas for a will, and the mason charged you 10 pounds for a wall. You actually gave the lawyer 20 pounds and 20 shillings, and he gave the shillings to his clerk.

I have taken this explanation on faith for some time. Can the BritDopers confirm this?

[Rick Johnson]

The pound was the standard currency similar to our dollar.
But an auctioneer was paid one shilling for every pound he earned for his client so the guinea was a pound plus his commission.

[John W. Kennedy]

But the pound was always the standard currency. If you look at a ledger book going back to long before the reform, you will see everything worked out in pounds, shillings,and pence, with nary a guinea to be seen.

Such confusion, by the way, is not exclusively British. Did you know that, in theory, US money is measured in dollars, dimes, cents, and mills? Check it out -- a nickel says "Five Cents" on it, but a dime says "One Dime", even though no-one ever does arithmetic in dimes, or reads $1.86 as "one dollar, eight dimes, and six cents". And we call one-cent pieces "pennies", though they say "One Cent", and our five-cent pieces "nickels", though they say "Five Cents".

By the way, to get back to Sherlock Holmes, the new, reformed gold pound coin picked up the nickname "sovereign". So that's what that means.

[Mk VII]

it's largely a result of our 'we've always done it that way' mentality (and it made the price sound less than it truely was). The guinea lingered on longest in bespoke tailoring, certainly through the 1970s, but I haven't seen it quoted now for many years, except, as has been said in another thread, for bloodstock prices and prizes

[Pushkin]

Is the "tuppence" mentioned at the end of Cecil's reply not just a two pence piece? I was wondering becaue I can still remember using five pence and ten pence pieces marked as one and two shillings a piece and I think i can remember using 1/2 penny pieces as well in the early eighties.

[fortytwo]

Originally Posted by Pushkin

Is the "tuppence" mentioned at the end of Cecil's reply not just a two pence piece? I was wondering becaue I can still remember using five pence and ten pence pieces marked as one and two shillings a piece and I think i can remember using 1/2 penny pieces as well in the early eighties.

There was no "tuppence " piece before decimalisation.(not unless there was one in the distant past)
If you want to see pre/post decimal coinage there are many sites available using your favourite search engine.
Here's one with some pretty pictures
http://www.24carat.co.uk/britishcoinagesystem.html
It has some explanation of the common terms etc. too.

V

[Mk VII]

there was a tuppenny [two pence] coin in George III's time, but not thereafter, until decimal currency appeared. There was also a double florin (4/-) briefly in Queen Victoria's time
The old shilling and two-shilling pieces continued to circulate, as 5p and 10p, for many years afterwards, until they were all withdrawn in the 1990s' I think. A few years later all 5p, 10p and 50p coins were replaced by smaller, lighter versions as inflation had reduced their usefullness

[Pushkin]

Originally Posted by Mk VII

There was also a double florin (4/-) briefly in Queen Victoria's time

I always associate the Florin with Irish Currency for some reason, but then Ireland used English terms for a while too didn't it?

[John W. Kennedy]

Yes. Just as with Canada and the United States, Ireland and the UK are too entangled for it to be reasonable, merely for pride's sake, for the smaller country not to follow suit. However, now that money isn't based on bullion value, the relative values have slipped.

(Even the United States would probably have kept pounds, shillings, and pence, if it weren't for the fact that there were very, very few guineas circulating in the early US. The most common gold coin, by far, was the spanish Real, also known as the Piece-of-eight, also known as -- ta-da! -- the Dollar. But shillings and pence continued to be legal tender for many decades, at a standard exchange rate. So, for that matter, did wampum.)

[samclem]

Originally Posted by John W. Kennedy

(Even the United States would probably have kept pounds, shillings, and pence, if it weren't for the fact that there were very, very few guineas circulating in the early US. The most common gold coin, by far, was the spanish Real, also known as the Piece-of-eight, also known as -- ta-da! -- the Dollar. But shillings and pence continued to be legal tender for many decades, at a standard exchange rate. So, for that matter, did wampum.)

John, the Spanish gold coins circulating were escudos not reals, which were silver. The term "piece of eight" could have either referred to a fractional part of either gold(escudos) or silver(reals), as the largest of either was an "8" escudo or "8" real.

To others questions about a "two pence" coin--

The large "cartwheel" 2 penny of 1797 was the last regular issue, but the government continued to make "Maundy coins" every year which included a silver two pence(in addition to a 1,3,4 pence) in silver. These were legal tender and definitely some got spent.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by samclem

The large "cartwheel" 2 penny of 1797 was the last regular issue, but the government continued to make "Maundy coins" every year which included a silver two pence(in addition to a 1,3,4 pence) in silver. These were legal tender and definitely some got spent.

Sterling silver Maundy money continues to be made in 1, 2, 3, and 4 pence. The face values went from 1d-4d to 1p-4p in 1971, but, of course, they are worth far more, both as silver and as collectables. Every year on Maundy Thursday (the day before Good Friday), the sovereign gives n elderly people n pence in Maundy money (n being the sovereign's current age), as well as a purse of common money.

[rowrrbazzle]

Here's another obsolete US currency term that you still hear occasionally: two bits, referring to the quarter or an amount of 25 cents. When was the last time actual bits were used?

[samclem]

Originally Posted by rowrrbazzle

Here's another obsolete US currency term that you still hear occasionally: two bits, referring to the quarter or an amount of 25 cents. When was the last time actual bits were used?

The only countries that ever had a "bit" as official currency include British Virgin Islands, Danish West Indies, Dominica, Essequibo & Demerary(Guyana), Grenada, Martinique, Montserrat, St. Vincent, Trinidad & Tobago. (Start to get the idea, here?)

Bits was only a slang expression in the US and most other countries.

[LogicinMotion]

Originally Posted by paperbackwriter

In the column In Britain, what's the difference between a pound and a guinea?, the questioner mentions that he came across these terms in Sherlock Holmes stories. The questioner could reasonable be left with the question of why guineas are mentioned so frequently if, as Cecil says, the guinea was not minted after 1813. The world of Doyle's stories was assumed to be London contemporary with the writings, from 1887 (A Study in Scarlet) to 1927 (The Case Book of Sherlock Holmes). Why did a currency that hadn't physically existed for at least 74 years get mentioned so often?

I have heard the explanation that gentlemen were paid in guineas, and tradespeople were paid in pounds. So that a lawyer maybe charged you 10 guineas for a will, and the mason charged you 10 pounds for a wall. You actually gave the lawyer 20 pounds and 20 shillings, and he gave the shillings to his clerk.

I have taken this explanation on faith for some time. Can the BritDopers confirm this?

Britdoper checking in. Can confirm the above. Have a boxed edition of the Sherlock Holmes works, which arrived with a FAQ about many instances of various comments, or queries that have been questioned since the stories became popular. This very question is on that FAQ and your explanation is accurate. The reasoning for the mentioning of guinea as a currency is because it was still widely used as a form of currency, for long after it apparently disappeared from public useage.

Even if the guinea itself was never phsyically given or taken, the amount of the guinea as a currency was still used. (If that makes sense) Rather like walking into a candy shop in the UK and asking for a quarter of mint imperials. Most people still remember the imperial system and will still use it because they're so familiar with it, regardless of whether or not it was replaced by metric way back when.

Logic.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

OK, since this seems to be the thread for it.....I seem to recall that in one of Orwell's books, he mentions a coin called a "joe", which seemed to be an annoying coin that no one wanted in their change. Can anybody tell me what that is?

[jjimm]

Guineas are still used in the UK horse racing business - for prizes and purchases, AFAIK.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by Rube E. Tewesday

OK, since this seems to be the thread for it.....I seem to recall that in one of Orwell's books, he mentions a coin called a "joe", which seemed to be an annoying coin that no one wanted in their change. Can anybody tell me what that is?

The only coin that has been referred to in a slang sense(AFAIK) as a "joe/jo" is a Portugese Johannes. This was a commonly used gold coin in Colonial US.

Can you give a cite for the phrase/term?

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Well, samclem, as I recall, it was in the early pages of Keep the Aspidistera [sp?] Flying . Naturally, as with half of my books, I have no idea where my copy is, and now I'm wondering if I'm not totally misremembering. Sigh...too many years, too many books....This ring a bell with anyone?

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by samclem

The only countries that ever had a "bit" as official currency include British Virgin Islands, Danish West Indies, Dominica, Essequibo & Demerary(Guyana), Grenada, Martinique, Montserrat, St. Vincent, Trinidad & Tobago. (Start to get the idea, here?)

Bits was only a slang expression in the US and most other countries.

No, a "bit" was one-eighth of a Spanish dollar, which was actually stamped with eight pie slices so you could "make change" in a more literal sense than today. That's why they're "pieces of eight". US dollars were never made so, but the US dollar was intentionally made equal to the Spanish dollar, and the "bit" term stuck long after its literal sense was lost, even long after the dropping of the half-cent in the 1850's made it impossible to produce 12 1/2 cents in change.

In fact, the New York Stock exchange only stopped quoting stock prices in dollars and bits in the last year or so.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by John W. Kennedy

No, a "bit" was one-eighth of a Spanish dollar, which was actually stamped with eight pie slices so you could "make change" in a more literal sense than today. That's why they're "pieces of eight". US dollars were never made so, but the US dollar was intentionally made equal to the Spanish dollar, and the "bit" term stuck long after its literal sense was lost, even long after the dropping of the half-cent in the 1850's made it impossible to produce 12 1/2 cents in change.

In fact, the New York Stock exchange only stopped quoting stock prices in dollars and bits in the last year or so.

The Spanish 'dollar' was never struck with eight pie slices that I am aware of. If you could give me a cite....?

The term 'bit' was merely a reference to a small coin or thing. It probably referred to the 1/2 or 1 real silver coins which were correspondingly equal to about 6 cents and 12 cents US(equivalent to a 3 pence and a six pence in English silver coin in the late 1700's).

[DSYoungEsq]

If I have it correct, and samclem can let us know if I do, the "piece of eight" was the eight real or reale coin. The etymology doesn't have to do with cutting it into pieces, but rather with the fact that it is the Eight Real Piece, or, if you will, the "piece of eight reales," in the same way that you can have a $20 piece or a 10-pound piece.

It is true that reales could be, and often were, cut into smaller fractions when needed; this site shows a picture of a 2 reales coin cut in half. Please note that the site apparently buys into the mistaken concept of a 1 reale coin being a "piece of eight"; which fails to understand that the "piece of eight" was the 8 reales coin, not the fraction of same.

A perhaps better look at it all can be found here.

[John W. Kennedy]

I've seen a picture of such a prepared coin, but it was decades ago.

[bonzer]

Originally Posted by Rube E. Tewesday

OK, since this seems to be the thread for it.....I seem to recall that in one of Orwell's books, he mentions a coin called a "joe", which seemed to be an annoying coin that no one wanted in their change. Can anybody tell me what that is?

Eric Partridge (A Dictionary of Historical Slang, Penguin, 1972) has

(Also JOEY) A fourpenny piece: ca 1840-1910. Ex Joseph Hume, politician and financial expert (1777-1855). E. Hawkins, Silver Coins of England.

as the second sense of joe. No idea whether this still applied in 1936. Partridge also lists samclem's suggestion as the fourth sense.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Thanks bonzer -- that certainly makes sense in the context, as I recall it. A coin in an odd amount, that hadn't been made in years, showing up in your change -- kind of like an American getting a Susan B. Anthony.

[Mk VII]

the 'joey' was originally the fourpence [groat] issued for a while in Queen Victoria's time. When this coin became obsolete the name seems to have transferred to the sixpence - although I never heard it used, and only learned of it recently.
Five shillings was sometimes referred to as a 'dollar' and two-and-six as 'half a dollar'. Captured Spanish dollars [8 reales] once circulated at the rate of 4/9d

[samclem]

Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq

If I have it correct, and samclem can let us know if I do, the "piece of eight" was the eight real or reale coin. The etymology doesn't have to do with cutting it into pieces, but rather with the fact that it is the Eight Real Piece, or, if you will, the "piece of eight reales," in the same way that you can have a $20 piece or a 10-pound piece.

DS. You are correct. The OED cites from as early as 1610 make it clear.

1610 B. JONSON Alch. III. iii. 15 Round trunkes, Furnish'd with pistolets, and pieces of eight. 1670 NARBOROUGH Jrnl. in Acc. Sev. Late Voy. I. (1694) 97 The Spaniards..paid for what things they bought in good Pillar pieces of Eight.

They were talking about 'dollar-sized' coins.

The concept of cutting 'dollar-sized' eight reales coins into fractions is something, about which, I feel rather strongly. I have always maintained, after 33 years of buying coins for a living, that the practice was NOT common, probably was mainly confined to the Carribean Islands, and was not a general practice in the US mainland. I've bought thousands of coin hoards over the counter these last 30+ years. I have yet to buy a "cut" fractional piece of an "eight real"/dollar-sized coin, except for one or two pieces which were deliberately cut for use in the Islands. Can anyone tell me that all of the small, cut pieces were melted over the years so that they never turn up in collections/accumulations that are hundreds of years old?

Pshaw!