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  #1  
Old 05-04-2004, 10:11 AM
Surreal Surreal is offline
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Did Most Prostitutes & Female Porn Stars Get Molested As Children?

I've often heard it claimed that women who work as prostitutes or as porn stars usually get into that line of work because they were molested when they were younger. Is there any evidence to suggest that prostitutes/porn stars are more likely to have been molested than women who aren't prostitutes/porn stars?

It would seem to me that a person who was molested might have even *more* reservations about having sex with strangers than someone who wasn't. Why should there be any connection between getting molested and doing porn later in life?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 05-04-2004, 10:32 AM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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One theory is that people who are molested/abused have their sexual/moral compass thrown off kilter, particularly in case where the abuse was by family or friends: Daddy loves me; Daddy is good; Daddy touched me, ergo, this type of behaviour is okay. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who are
abused that also withdraw instead of "act out".

Here's some data I pulled from one Canadian study:

Quote:
history of childhood sexual abuse
• prostitutes: 38% -- 73%
• general pop: 19% to 50%
• male care-giver

Bagley & Young:
• compared prostitutes & general sample
• 73% vs 29%
So there does seem to be some correlation, although that study also indicates it is not causative.
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Old 05-04-2004, 10:46 AM
Satyagrahi Satyagrahi is offline
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If you can manage to find a copy of this movie, it is fascinating and cuts to the heart of your question: "Some Nudity Required," written, directed and narrated by Odette Springer. See if you can find it in a video store:

It is a documentary about the "B" movie industry, with interviews of several of the female stars.

The short answer to your question is, yes, many sex performers and entertainers had unhappy childhoods. The long answer is: see this movie. You won't regret it.
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Old 05-04-2004, 10:57 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Dunno about porn stars, but I recall seeing some quantitative evidence supporting the connection for prostitution. Not as strong as the connection to drug abuse and "cutting" (self-inflicted non-lethal injuries such as wrist slitting or maceration of the abdomen) but statistically significant.

For the "why" part of it, I can only surmise, but if we assume the mindset of a large plurality of non-molested females runs along the lines of "generally lots of males want sex from females pretty much whenever they can get it, I could collect on any of that, but hmm you know what, the absolutely coolest and most appealing prospect would be to have sex with someone I loved and who loved me in return", getting raped and/or molested a few times probably tends to knock you off that course, deleting the sense of being able to decide when not to have sex and stirring in a big gloppy dose of fury and hurt, and maybe ending up with a mindset that runs more like "generally lots of males want sex from females pretty much whenever they can get it and will force themselves on you if they can and they don't care how shitty it makes you feel, so maybe the only way a girl can have any sense of control is make them pay for it, and fuck "love", who'd want to love creatures who'd do what they've done to me?"
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Old 05-04-2004, 11:12 AM
scm1001 scm1001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShibbOleth
One theory is that people who are molested/abused have their sexual/moral compass thrown off kilter, particularly in case where the abuse was by family or friends: Daddy loves me; Daddy is good; Daddy touched me, ergo, this type of behaviour is okay. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who are abused that also withdraw instead of "act out".

Here's some data I pulled from one Canadian study:



So there does seem to be some correlation, although that study also indicates it is not causative.
I am sorry, but any survey that states 29% of the general female population has been sexually abused as a kid needs its head read, unless it defines sexual abuse so widely to be meaningless.


On a more lighter note theonion has a good line this month
"Woman Overcomes Years Of Child Abuse To Achieve Porn Stardom"
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4017&n=3
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  #6  
Old 05-04-2004, 11:38 AM
alice_in_wonderland alice_in_wonderland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scm1001
I am sorry, but any survey that states 29% of the general female population has been sexually abused as a kid needs its head read, unless it defines sexual abuse so widely to be meaningless.
I think you're deluding yourself - there are many studies that give 25%-30% as a rate for childhood sexual abuse.

A prof of mine - a sex counsellor by profession - estimated that 90% of women were sexually abused as children - I'm inclined to think his number is WAY too high and probably more accurately reflects the rate of abuse among his patients, however the 30% rate seems about right from all of the reading and research I've done on the subject. Additionally, I would guesstimate that of my female friends, probably 3 out of 10 of them were abused as kids.
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Old 05-04-2004, 11:42 AM
Satyricon Satyricon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scm1001
I am sorry, but any survey that states 29% of the general female population has been sexually abused as a kid needs its head read, unless it defines sexual abuse so widely to be meaningless.
Sexual abuse has a pretty broad spectrum, and does not pertain only to touching but also includes unwanted verbal comments, which many, many women receive at some point in their lives, particularly during puberty. So that 29% may be more accurate than you think.
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Old 05-04-2004, 11:45 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scm1001
I am sorry, but any survey that states 29% of the general female population has been sexually abused as a kid needs its head read, unless it defines sexual abuse so widely to be meaningless.


On a more lighter note theonion has a good line this month
"Woman Overcomes Years Of Child Abuse To Achieve Porn Stardom"
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4017&n=3

HAHAHA. The onion is hilarious in small doses, too bad they want payment now.

29% isnt unbelievable, i have heard 1/4 of women are raped. But that 29% may include things like 'being groped' or 'verbal sexual innuendos' that only happened once or something along those lines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

RESULTS: Early childhood abuse and/or neglect was a significant predictor of prostitution for females (odds ratio [OR] = 2.96). For females, sexual abuse (OR = 2.54) and neglect (OR = 2.58) were associated with prostitution, whereas physical abuse was only marginally associated. Childhood abuse and neglect were not associated with increased risk for promiscuity or teenage pregnancy. CONCLUSIONS: These findings strongly support a relationship between childhood victimization and subsequent prostitution. The presumed causal sequence between childhood victimization and teenage pregnancy may need to be reevaluated.
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  #9  
Old 05-04-2004, 11:52 AM
alice_in_wonderland alice_in_wonderland is offline
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Here are a few cites:

From http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...10179_fm.html:

Quote:
The adjusted prevalence estimate in males was 5.1% and in females 27.5%, which corresponds with rates in comparable countries.
From http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/...e071f_e.shtml:

Quote:
Canadian researchers have also found that 20%-30% of prepubescent children have been sexually abused.(3)
From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...dopt=Abstract:

Quote:
PARTICIPANTS: 710 Women randomly selected from Australian federal electoral rolls. RESULTS: One hundred and forty-four women (20%) had experienced CSA.
From http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/pub.../fsabuse2.htm:

Quote:
The National Resource Council estimates the percent of the U.S. population which has been sexually abused to range from a low of 20-24 percent to a high of 54-62 percent of the population; the higher estimate includes sexualized exposure without touching.1 The largest retrospective study on the prevalence of child sexual abuse found 27 percent of women and 16 percent of men reported abuse.4

I can find more if you like.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:06 PM
DocCathode DocCathode is offline
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I don't know about the porn industry, but I've known plenty of molested girls who were streetwalkers at some point.

I see it as a result of the defense mechanism-'It didn't mean anything. It was just my body. What happens to my body isn't important.' If the molester lives with the girl, she may run away. She finds herself without money or job skills. Having convinced herself that what happens to her body isn't important, she sees no problem letting strangers touch or enter it for money.
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  #11  
Old 05-04-2004, 12:18 PM
scm1001 scm1001 is offline
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hmmm I may have been a bit glib when I questioned the statistics. The incidence of terrible sexual abuse (the sort that would naturally lead to drug abuse, and prostitution) seems thankfully fairly low. The one-off exposure, or grope or worse is much higher, probably at least 20-30%. (good paper here http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...g/fleming.html ) Though by that criterion I would call myself molested at least three times growing up, though none had more than a passing minor effect (though I suppose I still remember them)

The problem is that the term "sexual abuse" covers too large a territory. So when you hear statistics like half of all female prisoners report they were abused, you may think that that explains their criminality. However, if by the same criterion, 30% of all women report the same thing then it becomes meaningless.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:27 PM
ouryL ouryL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon
Sexual abuse has a pretty broad spectrum, and does not pertain only to touching but also includes unwanted verbal comments, which many, many women receive at some point in their lives, particularly during puberty. So that 29% may be more accurate than you think.
My psychology teacher liked to tell us to be sceptical of all surveys involving any particular behavior as perception is often out of kilter with reality.

Sexual abuse, like drug abuse is such a overly broad term that any survey about it is useless due to its vagueness.

I heard some mental health worker actually state that any childhood sexual activity is child abuse.

I also heard from another that abuse directed from a male authority figure upon a female minor likewise is tantamount to sexual abuse.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:42 PM
alice_in_wonderland alice_in_wonderland is offline
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Originally Posted by ouryL
I also heard from another that abuse directed from a male authority figure upon a female minor likewise is tantamount to sexual abuse.
So you don't think that abuse from a male authority figure toward a female minor is abuse?

Perhaps you meant sexual contact between a male authority figure and a female minor. For instance a school principal and his 16 year old student. Or a male physician and his underage patient. Or perhaps a male sports coach and his underage athlete?

You would have a hard time convincing me that any of those scenarios are NOT abusive.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:49 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alice_in_wonderland
So you don't think that abuse from a male authority figure toward a female minor is abuse?

Perhaps you meant sexual contact between a male authority figure and a female minor. For instance a school principal and his 16 year old student. Or a male physician and his underage patient. Or perhaps a male sports coach and his underage athlete?

You would have a hard time convincing me that any of those scenarios are NOT abusive.
I think what he was saying is that some people define abuse of any kind perpetrated by an adult male upon a minor female as sexual abuse. I would disagree with such a definition. Not all abuse is sexual abuse, even if it's a man doing it to a girl.

And I am very skeptical of the idea that comments should be defined as sexual abuse unless the the comments are particularly vile and repeated, such as for harassment.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:50 PM
Gary T Gary T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alice_in_wonderland
So you don't think that abuse from a male authority figure toward a female minor is abuse?

Perhaps you meant sexual contact between a male authority figure and a female minor. For instance a school principal and his 16 year old student. Or a male physician and his underage patient. Or perhaps a male sports coach and his underage athlete?

You would have a hard time convincing me that any of those scenarios are NOT abusive.
I interpreted the statement as saying that any type of abuse -- e.g. physical, verbal -- even if it had no sexual aspect to it -- e.g. a punch, calling someone stupid -- would be called sexual abuse if it involved a male authority figure abusing a minor female. I don't find that viewpoint defensible.
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  #16  
Old 05-04-2004, 01:26 PM
Cillasi Cillasi is offline
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Many women discount the sexual abuse they endured as children. In fact, many men do too. We tend to equate sexual abuse to forcible rape and minimize the "keys in the pocket" uncles, the "ticklers" and "playing doctor" with the cousin who is 10 years or more older than you. I think there are many more non-prostitutes who were molested as children - they've just discounted or forgot their experiences. Just going by what I have elicited from friends about childhood experiences, I'd say that at least 50% and maybe as much as 75% of all children are victims of some sort of molestation.

Molestation is often non-scary and often does not feel bad especially if the perpetrator can avoid getting caught up in sexual urgency (i.e., hard breathing, increased pressure, self-focus, etc.). Coupled with the fact that sexual predators tend to give money, gifts and supply other benefits to the children they molest, a child's psyche can get pretty twisted.

What some children figure out is that they can exert a lot of control over adults if they can spark sexual interest. I believe some victims will translate this into a life of prostitution or other sexual arts (stripping, S&D, S&M, etc.). Just as many probably go on to live relatively normal lives, marrying, having children, etc.

However, I don't think you can pigeonhole what drives people into prostitution any more than you can pigeonhole what causes people to become anything other than heterosexual or what causes criminal or sexually perverted behavior.

What must also be considered is that prior to the recent public exposure and criminalization of child molestation, most times, the molested were the ones punished, or so it seemed. When molestation is uncovered and the only result is that the victim is forbidden to be around a beloved family member or friend, that victim feels punished. It was seldom that circumstances were explained to the child and the child never realized that what the perpetrator was doing was wrong.

With today's heightened awareness and willingness to expose perpetrators and educate children, things may slowly begin to change. What everyone needs to remember is that molestation does not have to be violent or unpleasant. In the words of an acquaintance's 12-year old daughter who ended up pregnant by her stepfather after several years of undetected molestation - "But I liked it."
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Old 05-04-2004, 01:36 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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If something is not scary, doesn't feel bad, is forgotten, and discounted -- in other words has no immediate or future harmful consequences, does it make sense to classify it as molestation or abuse?
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Old 05-04-2004, 01:40 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Let me clarify that in posing the above question, I'm talking about behaviour that is not overtly sexual -- in other words, no physical touching of sex organs or erogenous zones, etc. -- certainly nothing that could result in pregnancy.

What are the bounds here? I think before we start making decisions about what to do about abuse or sexual abuse, we have to agree on some common-sense boundaries of what it is.
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:07 PM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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Cillasi, I'd never heard of tickling classified as abuse or molestation before. Can you please clarify? Do you consider all tickling abusive?
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:18 PM
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My wife is a psychotherapist, and while I don't believe she's ever had a professional porn actress as a client (we won't go into amatuers), she has had quite a few strippers. She reports that from her professional experience, many more had been sexually abuses than had not suffered the same abuse.
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:29 PM
Gary T Gary T is offline
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Not all tickling is abuse, but some cases certainly are.

From here: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/.../behavior.html
"How can something that is fun possibly be abusive? Most times tickling is fun, but is it still fun when the adult refuses to stop the tickling? Children have been tickled by adults or teens who are much stronger until they cry, become hysterical, or lose bladder control--all humiliating experiences for the victim. Children who can't escape this treatment often experience nightmares for years. Tickling is not considered abusive, until it's carried to extremes."

From here: http://www.ivillagehealth.com/expert...150620,00.html
"Continuing any behavior that causes pain or discomfort to an individual -- child or adult -- despite pleas to stop is abusive. Tickling may sound like an innocuous activity, and indeed it can be fun and harmless if it's engaged in voluntarily. But it's clear from your description that what both your younger son and you experienced was painful and distressing."
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:31 PM
Gary T Gary T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acsenray
I think before we start making decisions about what to do about abuse or sexual abuse, we have to agree on some common-sense boundaries of what it is.
This site seems to do a good job of delineating it: http://www.capcsac.org/childabuse/sexual_abuse.html
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:53 PM
flight flight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary T
Not all tickling is abuse, but some cases certainly are.

From here: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/.../behavior.html
"How can something that is fun possibly be abusive? Most times tickling is fun, but is it still fun when the adult refuses to stop the tickling? Children have been tickled by adults or teens who are much stronger until they cry, become hysterical, or lose bladder control--all humiliating experiences for the victim. Children who can't escape this treatment often experience nightmares for years. Tickling is not considered abusive, until it's carried to extremes."

From here: http://www.ivillagehealth.com/expert...150620,00.html
"Continuing any behavior that causes pain or discomfort to an individual -- child or adult -- despite pleas to stop is abusive. Tickling may sound like an innocuous activity, and indeed it can be fun and harmless if it's engaged in voluntarily. But it's clear from your description that what both your younger son and you experienced was painful and distressing."
OK, now these statistics are starting to jive with what I have see of the world. According to these kind of ideas, 90% of people with older siblings would be abused.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:08 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary T
Not all tickling is abuse, but some cases certainly are.
Okay, you've given descriptions of acts that are noticeably causing discomfort or distress. That seems to me to be qualitatively different from acts that seem innocuous, don't feel bad, and are forgotten.

On the other hand, anyone with a family, or as flight says, older siblings, is going to experience some distressing or upsetting or cruel behaviour. Is all such behaviour to be categorised as abuse?

And even if it is, the descriptions of abusive tickling don't seem to me to constitute sexual abuse.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:57 PM
violet9 violet9 is offline
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[QUOTE=AHunter3]Dunno about porn stars, but I recall seeing some quantitative evidence supporting the connection for prostitution. Not as strong as the connection to drug abuse and "cutting" (self-inflicted non-lethal injuries such as wrist slitting or maceration of the abdomen) but statistically significant.
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:20 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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I think the point is that children sometimes run away from abusive family environments, and runaways are often forced into prostitution. So, yes, many prostitutes were abused as children.

However, sometimes grown ups choose that line of business because it appeals to them. I can't see that having been abused would influence their decision.
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Old 05-04-2004, 07:45 PM
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For that matter, does it count if the causation is abused=run away from home=destitute, desperate and vulnerable=prostitution? I don't know how much of a factor that chain is, but it must contribute something to the statistic.
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:11 PM
JDepp JDepp is offline
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Yes.

That's because you are ignorant and shoot from the hip. Before you respond to a question or post one, you should first do some research. Most 99 to 100% of prostitutes were molested -- I don't know what is meant by molested as children, as that is the only way one can be "molested." The Trauma associated with incest/molestations drives the survivor to replay the indent(s) in order to understand and make sense out of a traumatic experience.
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:37 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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And I'm sure that after a statement like that about the importance of doing research, that you have a cite for that figure.
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:37 PM
Doctor Why Doctor Why is offline
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Zombie Strippers 2: Zombie Prostitutes

Jdepp, why can't adults be sexually molested? Also, do you have a cite for your figures? I find it difficult to believe that all prostitutes were sexually abused as children.

ETA: Chronos beat me to it. Are you indeed the god of time?

Last edited by Doctor Why; 09-04-2010 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:20 PM
Dpimi Dpimi is offline
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Perhaps being molested takes the edge off of it. For instance, the could say, "no point in saving myself since I'm not a virgin anyway."

A large part (if not almost all of it these days) is drugs. The dealers give you free drugs get you hooked and boom how else do you get money for the drugs once the dealer cuts off the free drugs. You go to work for your dealer.

How good are memories of people who are all drugged up anyway? Are they going to be looking for reasons to justify what they did. I mean geez I do it with a cake. I ate the cake cause it was looking all delicious at me

If one can find an excuse to justify eating too much, you can bet someone would want to find a reason to justify being a prostitute.

I think the danger is in back measuring.

You'd really have to find people that were molested as children and follow them forward in life.

I can believe most prosititues were molested as kids. But I can also believe most pilots probably liked to fly as kids or most soliders in the army liked to play war as kids or most models liked to dress up as kids.

That doesn't follow that all kids who play dress up will be models or all kids that play war will be soldiers or all kids that like to fly will be pilots.
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Old 09-04-2010, 03:09 PM
astro astro is offline
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In these types of discussion it usually comes down to arguments between the perspectives

"If practically everything related to talking, touching and sexuality in childhood is somehow tantamount to "sexual abuse", then nothing is abuse. The abuse definition filter in these studies is absurd."

and

"There's lot of abuse people keep hidden" and "Who are you to say what is abuse and what is not. If professionals define an activity or action as abuse I trust their judgement more than I do yours."

In various candid interviews I've read with porn stars over the years, it was suprising to me how many said (when questioned) that were not molested or sexually traumatized as children, but generally made the porn choice almost 100% because of the big money they could make, and for a lot of them that lifestyle led to drugs.

Last edited by astro; 09-04-2010 at 03:11 PM..
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  #33  
Old 09-04-2010, 03:22 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
For the "why" part of it, I can only surmise...getting raped and/or molested a few times probably tends to knock you off that course, deleting the sense of being able to decide when not to have sex and stirring in a big gloppy dose of fury and hurt, and maybe ending up with a mindset that runs more like "generally lots of males want sex from females pretty much whenever they can get it and will force themselves on you if they can and they don't care how shitty it makes you feel, so maybe the only way a girl can have any sense of control is make them pay for it, and fuck "love", who'd want to love creatures who'd do what they've done to me?"
I'm not a prostitute or a porn star, but I was raped as a kid, so here's how I can imagine the thought process going:

Sex isn't sacred. Sex is sex. It's a physical activity shared by two or more people. I like sex. I may even be good at it. If I was good with my hands, I could get a job as a carpenter. If I was strong, I could use my body and get paid to move furniture. If I ran fast, I could use my body to get paid as a runner. If I wanted to, I could get licensed as a massage therapist, physical therapist or nurse, and make people feel better by touching them with my hands. Why on earth shouldn't I get paid to use my body to give someone pleasure with my mouth or cunt?

It's the first sentence that kicks things off, and that you'll have the hardest time getting "normal" people to agree with, even if they are not religious. Even atheists in our culture still have the sense that there's something extra special about sex, that is should be shared only with someone you love, that it's something that should only be shared for the pleasure of it and not made monetary.

But if your early experiences with sex aren't in the context of a romantic, consensual relationship, then you have two options: you can believe that sex is sacred and beat yourself up for violating that sacredness (or allowing that violation to occur), or you can conclude that maybe sex isn't sacred at all. If sex isn't sacred, why not get paid for it?

Last edited by WhyNot; 09-04-2010 at 03:26 PM.. Reason: added quote for context
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  #34  
Old 09-04-2010, 03:31 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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And that's a huge load of crap when they say that. They say that because it's better for them and for the industry financially to say that. I have seen interviews with former porn stars who said that their studios basically told them to always publicly deny any sexual abuse no matter what. The audience doesn't want to know that they're jerking off to a girl who was raped whn she was nine. They want to hold onto the complete and utter fantasy that some women are just "really sexual," that they just sincerely love doing 10 man anal gangbangs, and that they're completely healthy and happy doing what they're doing. Bullshit.

I'm all for porn, and think prostitution should be legal, but they're's no denying that most women don't end up in the sex industry if nothing ever happened to them as children.
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Old 09-04-2010, 03:39 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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For the "why" part of it, I can only surmise...getting raped and/or molested a few times probably tends to knock you off that course, deleting the sense of being able to decide when not to have sex and stirring in a big gloppy dose of fury and hurt, and maybe ending up with a mindset that runs more like "generally lots of males want sex from females pretty much whenever they can get it and will force themselves on you if they can and they don't care how shitty it makes you feel, so maybe the only way a girl can have any sense of control is make them pay for it, and fuck "love", who'd want to love creatures who'd do what they've done to me?"
I'm not a prostitute or a porn star, but I was raped as a kid, so here's how I can imagine the thought process going:

Sex isn't sacred. Sex is sex. It's a physical activity shared by two or more people. I like sex. I may even be good at it. If I was good with my hands, I could get a job as a carpenter. If I was strong, I could use my body and get paid to move furniture. If I ran fast, I could use my body to get paid as a runner. If I wanted to, I could get licensed as a massage therapist, physical therapist or nurse, and make people feel better by touching them with my hands. Why on earth shouldn't I get paid to use my body to give someone pleasure with my mouth or cunt?

It's the first sentence that kicks things off, and that you'll have the hardest time getting "normal" people to agree with, even if they are not religious. Even atheists in our culture still have the sense that there's something extra special about sex, that is should be shared only with someone you love, that it's something that should only be shared for the pleasure of it and not made monetary.

But if your early experiences with sex aren't in the context of a romantic, consensual relationship, then you have two options: you can believe that sex is sacred and beat yourself up for violating that sacredness (or allowing that violation to occur), or you can conclude that maybe sex isn't sacred at all. If sex isn't sacred, why not get paid for it?
This is a false dichotemy. Sex isn't sacred, but it IS intensely intimate and personal for most people (women especially), and it isn't emotionally or socially normative to do it for money, do it in public and do it with strangers. People don't arrive at those kinds of behaviors organically. It's not like being a carpenter, don't be ridiculous. And people who haven't had the experience robbed of emotional connection, intimacy and love are not making it "sacred."

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 09-04-2010 at 03:41 PM..
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Old 09-04-2010, 03:49 PM
astro astro is offline
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And that's a huge load of crap when they say that. They say that because it's better for them and for the industry financially to say that. I have seen interviews with former porn stars who said that their studios basically told them to always publicly deny any sexual abuse no matter what. The audience doesn't want to know that they're jerking off to a girl who was raped whn she was nine. They want to hold onto the complete and utter fantasy that some women are just "really sexual," that they just sincerely love doing 10 man anal gangbangs, and that they're completely healthy and happy doing what they're doing. Bullshit.

I'm all for porn, and think prostitution should be legal, but they're's no denying that most women don't end up in the sex industry if nothing ever happened to them as children.
A number of these interviews were alternative newspaper type interviews and were done well after the porn star's porn career had been over for quite some time, so I'm not sure I entirely buy into the "studio pressure" explanation. Beyond this if it was for the audience to like them they wouldn't say "it was all about the money". Being greedy and grasping doesn't make you any more sexy than being abused.
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:03 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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Even in indy papers, sexual abuse isn't a wound that most people want to open up. It's a lot easier to say it was about the money, even the money isn't usually enough for most women. Something else was already going on for them to have been ok with making money that way.
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:09 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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It's a lot easier to say it was about the money, even the money isn't usually enough for most women.
Nobody said that the money would be enough for most women. In fact, the hypothesis that the money isn't enough for most women would neatly explain the observed fact that most women aren't porn stars.
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:11 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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Exactly, so it's bullshit to say that the money alone is enough to turn a woman into a prostitute or a pornstar.
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:33 PM
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Exactly, so it's bullshit to say that the money alone is enough to turn a woman into a prostitute or a pornstar.
All women certainly, there are tons of women with killer bodies, who love sex and who would never be porn stars, but I would submit there probably "a" women (or two) out there who has a great body, is not sexually shy, looks at her alternatives and decides making 6 figures a year as a porn star is better than working at McDonald's.
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:36 PM
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Suggesting that abuse is the ONLY way one can come to the conclusion that sex can be used for anything other than an expression of intimacy within a monogamous relationship is pretty absurd. There are (depending on where you live) sizable segments of the community who are perfectly able to engage in sex for fun outside the context of a romantic relationship.

To me, the problem with pornography and prostitution isn't that it's somehow shameful or cheapens the institution of sex; it's that the way the industry works in this (and most) countries is extremely exploitative. It takes people on the margins of society who have very few choices in life and creates situations in which the balance of power prevents these people from taking charge of their lives or their work.

However, with the internet, the easing of laws and other factors, there is an increasing number of sex workers who set out on their own and make the educated decision to enter the industry. Aspects of the "mainstream" industry are also much less exploitative, as evidenced by the fact that there are big name porn stars these days who make a very good living acting essentially as independent contractors. Maybe some of these are more well-to-do types who were abused, but I think it's equally likely that they're just people who have come to the conclusion that sex can be fun (and profitable) outside of a monogamous romantic relationship.

So, IMHO, you need to make a distinction between the two aspects of the sex industry (not that there's no grey area there). I would strongly suspect that you would see a great deal more abuse in the history of people who are being exploited by the sex industry than those who work on a somewhat fair basis. Any porn "star" who is likely to be interviewed (like astro mentioned) is almost undoubtedly in the latter category. People get to be big names usually not because they're particularly good "actors"-- it's because they're savvy businesspeople.

I strongly suspect that if the statistics cited upthread were adjusted for socio-economic factors, the difference between sex industry workers and the general public would even out. Poverty, abuse (both physical, mental and sexual) and generally poor home lives all contribute to make people who are hopeless and helpless and have few prospects in life. This makes them far more prone to being exploited by anyone, the sex industry (be it pimp or sleaze producer) included. It's the same factors that lead to people becoming criminals.
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Old 09-04-2010, 05:36 PM
Clark K Clark K is offline
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Exactly, so it's bullshit to say that the money alone is enough to turn a woman into a prostitute or a pornstar.
Cite?

I think the evidence is clear that there's a very strong link between abuse and becoming a sex worker of some sort. But is there any evidence that, occasionally, a woman (or man) doesn't simply look at their job skills and their need for money and say, "Well, hooking is my best option"?
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:12 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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Is there any evdience that they do?

I think economic distress, and drug addiction can drive them to do it, i.e. desperation for money, but no, I don't believe that normal healthy women with no pressing econmic urgency don't just decide to become prostitutes for the great income and benefits.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 09-04-2010 at 06:13 PM..
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:20 PM
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Is there any evidence that they do?

I think economic distress, and drug addiction can drive them to do it, i.e. desperation for money, but no, I don't believe that normal healthy women with no pressing economic urgency don't just decide to become prostitutes for the great income and benefits.
These days this "no pressing economic urgency" qualifier is going to limit your cohort of "won't do its" pretty substantially.

Last edited by astro; 09-04-2010 at 06:20 PM..
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:21 PM
raindog raindog is offline
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I think it's entirely relevant to [at least loosely] define what is 'normal healthy' is in this context.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:15 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Exactly, so it's bullshit to say that the money alone is enough to turn a woman into a prostitute or a pornstar.
It's not enough for most women. That doesn't mean that it's not enough for some.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:52 PM
Rigamarole Rigamarole is offline
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I highly doubt it. It's great money. Most are just girls who realized that they could charge an hourly rate higher than that of a lawyer who busted her ass for 7+ years of law school and went hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and all they have to do is lie there. (yeah of course there are a lot of risks/dangers associated with it and they're only a desirable commodity for a limited period of their lives, but they still earn insane amounts of money)
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:58 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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I highly doubt it. It's great money. Most are just girls who realized that they could charge an hourly rate higher than that of a lawyer who busted her ass for 7+ years of law school and went hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and all they have to do is lie there. (yeah of course there are a lot of risks/dangers associated with it and they're only a desirable commodity for a limited period of their lives, but they still earn insane amounts of money)
Do they really, though? People say this and I'm sure there are a few high price call girls who do but it doesn't sound like it's all that easy to earn lots of money that way. Plus it's something you can only do for a fairly short period of time, as opposed to law, without any real security.
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:02 PM
Rigamarole Rigamarole is offline
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Do they really, though? People say this and I'm sure there are a few high price call girls who do but it doesn't sound like it's all that easy to earn lots of money that way. Plus it's something you can only do for a fairly short period of time, as opposed to law, without any real security.
$200-300 an hour is a pretty standard rate for your typical hooker (and often the quoted hourly rate doesn't end up being a full hour, but they still charge the full price ). For the "high end" ones the sky is the limit... $500-1000/hr and up is not unheard of. And those latter rates are also comparable to the average porn shoot, with really in-demand actresses of course commanding much higher wages. And trust me, they have no problems booking appointments/shoots one right after the other. I know all this from.. uh, a book I read.
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:29 PM
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Do they really, though? People say this and I'm sure there are a few high price call girls who do but it doesn't sound like it's all that easy to earn lots of money that way. Plus it's something you can only do for a fairly short period of time, as opposed to law, without any real security.
$200-300 an hour is a pretty standard rate for your typical hooker (and often the quoted hourly rate doesn't end up being a full hour, but they still charge the full price ). For the "high end" ones the sky is the limit... $500-1000/hr and up is not unheard of. And those latter rates are also comparable to the average porn shoot, with really in-demand actresses of course commanding much higher wages. And trust me, they have no problems booking appointments/shoots one right after the other. I know all this from.. uh, a book I read.
It has to be acknowledged there is quite a large slice of fugly, wouldn't touch them with ten foot pole, street hookers out there who charge whatever the local market will bear and that might pretty slim picking at times. These are the ones you see on COPS and in the Smoking Gun lineups. Most have severe drug issues. Having said this most can still make more doing that than almost anything else they are capable of doing (which probably isn't much).
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