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  #1  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:23 AM
astro astro is online now
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Why do women like "Slash Fiction" man on man action? Kirk/Spock! That's just wrong!

Per this article

Fantasitc Voyage - A journey into the wide, wild world of slash fiction

Quote:
The kiss was not at all like Kirk had expected... “Spock, wait... wait,” he whispered desperately.... “I can’t... We can’t... You... God, Spock... I want you. Don’t you understand? I want you so much!” Kirk still couldn’t believe that the Vulcan knew what he was getting himself into. But Spock was pressed tightly against him and Kirk could feel the hardness. Spock’s cock was pushing into his hip, hard as rock and insistent.... Spock smiled then, only a short, ghostly smile, but it was there. “Jim.” “Yes?” “You talk excessively.” —
That's just wrong! - So wrong!
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  #2  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:38 AM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Haven't we had lots of threads about this before?

I don't really go in for such things myself, but I had a lot of friends in college who did. In a big, big way. One was very well-read when it came to both slash and criticism/interpretations/defense of slash, and she also had a good sense of humor about the whole thing. I remember her saying it was a shame some women felt the need to write long essays justifying their love of slash as being about "subverting the dominant paradigm" or something, instead of admitting that it was really just about what got them hot. And "No man ever had to write an article to justify watching girl-on-girl porn!"

So that's why. Straight women who like slash probably do so for roughly the same reasons that many straight men like to see two chicks goin' at it.
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2004, 11:57 AM
Master Wang-Ka Master Wang-Ka is offline
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Watching (or envisioning) two members of the opposite sex going at it stimulates people in a variety of ways:

MEN: I think George Carlin put it best -- when a guy watches porn, he's watching the girl. The girl takes her clothes off, the girl gets you goin'... and then some OTHER GUY walks in and starts having SEX with her! Consequently, girl-girl action is twice as much girl, with much less jealousy and frustration!

WOMEN: A woman once told me she liked guy-guy slash because it was terrific sex without her personal involvement. She could stay detached, not having to identify with a woman in the actual act, and get off to all these hot guys.

Works for me.
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2004, 12:24 PM
shy guy shy guy is offline
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I imagine the same reason a lot of men like the seven billion Buffy/Faith slash fics out there.
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  #5  
Old 05-21-2004, 03:30 PM
Miss Mapp Miss Mapp is online now
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Slash writer checking in, but the basic question already seems to be answered: I like the thought of seeing two guys together, much as many, many guys like the thought of seeing two women together. The main difference as I see it is that women like me don't have a billion-dollar porn industry ready to cater to our sexual tastes, so we have to do it all ourselves.
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2004, 03:44 PM
tremorviolet tremorviolet is offline
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Yeah, I pretty much agree with the above. Heroines in romances are always perfect and annoying. There's also a theory that women like male/male pairings because the relationship is more equal; you don't have the inequality that seems to be inherent in many male/female relationships. There may be something to this, I find the few het pairings I like involve very strong women (i.e. Buffy/Spike).

Also, it's not a phenomena limited to North America. In Japan, they tell the stories though comics, instead of writing and it's a commercial product: women writing comics about male love affairs that are sold to other women. Here's a recent article on the subject.
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  #7  
Old 05-21-2004, 03:55 PM
tracer tracer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Mapp
The main difference as I see it is that women like me don't have a billion-dollar porn industry ready to cater to our sexual tastes, so we have to do it all ourselves.
Darn it, why is there no large market for porn-made-for-women? If you ladies would just go out there and do your patriotic duty by buying more porn, I'm sure this problem would fix itself!
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  #8  
Old 05-21-2004, 04:01 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Mapp
Slash writer checking in, but the basic question already seems to be answered: I like the thought of seeing two guys together, much as many, many guys like the thought of seeing two women together. The main difference as I see it is that women like me don't have a billion-dollar porn industry ready to cater to our sexual tastes, so we have to do it all ourselves.
What about gay porn?
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  #9  
Old 05-21-2004, 04:12 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Gay porn isn't the same thing. There was a great Aestheticism article on the imagery of m/m erotica for men a long time ago that I ought to hunt down and won't, about how gay porn is about inviting the viewer in - single-shot images for men are usually of men making eye contact with the viewer. The idea in the article is that women who like it don't want to participate, they want to observe.

Personally I dig it as an arena for the personal power dymanics - give me seme on seme, really. Oh, and it's hot. But when it's good, it's hot and interesting.
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  #10  
Old 05-21-2004, 04:21 PM
Miss Mapp Miss Mapp is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsofia
Gay porn isn't the same thing. There was a great Aestheticism article on the imagery of m/m erotica for men a long time ago that I ought to hunt down and won't, about how gay porn is about inviting the viewer in - single-shot images for men are usually of men making eye contact with the viewer. The idea in the article is that women who like it don't want to participate, they want to observe.
Plus, a lot of slash is extremely character-specific. For example, the ladies who write Kirk/Spock want to see those two go at it, not two anonymous guys.
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  #11  
Old 05-21-2004, 04:26 PM
tremorviolet tremorviolet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
What about gay porn?
Yeah, it's really different. I'm a big fan of the yaoi manga and have a lot of books. The manga written for women has a lot of character development, pretty slender men, and, a lot of times, not much sex. It's the relationship that's important. I do have a couple of manga written for gay men and the differences are obvious. The characters are all big beefy guys with huge penises and they get right to bonkin' within the first couple of pages.
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  #12  
Old 05-21-2004, 04:55 PM
yosemite yosemite is offline
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I'm with you, astro, it's just wrong to read about Kirk and Spock goin' at it. Wrong wrong wrong. No way do I want to read about that. I have no interest in reading about my favorite television characters behaving in such a different way, so different that they (to me) are no longer recognizable as my favorite television characters. There's zero appeal to me, and I daresay zero appeal for you either.

However, that's part of what fan fiction is about. People write what they want to see happen, even if it goes against what the original creators (Gene Roddenberry, etc.) had in mind. And on that level, it's no big deal. After all, there are a ton of fan fics that write about "crossovers" (Star Trek and Star Wars in the same story, MacGyver and Stargate SG-1 in the same story) and I love those. But probably not everyone does. To other people, "crossovers" may seem wrong and stupid, but then, they don't have to read such stories! 'Cause it's fan fiction!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamia
I remember her saying it was a shame some women felt the need to write long essays justifying their love of slash as being about "subverting the dominant paradigm" or something, instead of admitting that it was really just about what got them hot.
Yes, I wish some of the fans would just admit this!

I used to illustrate fan fiction and was routinely asked to illustrate slash, but I always refused. I saw no reason to illustrate stories that I had no interest in reading and could not (personally) identify with. But some slash authors really wanted me to illustrate their stories and would try to give me these persuasive speeches about how they really thought Kirk and Spock (or Luke and Han, Luke and Darth Vader or whoever) were in love with each other, and see, this little meaningless line here or that throwaway glance in this episode proves it (See? See?!?! ) but it was all just a bunch of bullshit.

I used to roll my eyes at slash fiction until one of my friends (well-read, very literate, also a TV writer) explained to me what it was about (basically some people like to see two hot guys go at it as an observer). That made more sense to me. I still don't want to read it and I sure as hell don't want to illustrate it, though, but hey—fan fiction is for this sort of thing—people write about their own fantasies in these things.
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  #13  
Old 05-21-2004, 05:13 PM
pepperlandgirl pepperlandgirl is offline
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Also, there's the subtext to consider. I can't speak for other fandoms, but there's so much gay subtext in Angel that it very nearly is text. Shoot, Spike/Angel is canon now. But consider this quote from Angelus in 5.08 Destiny

Quote:
Don't mistake me. I do love the ladies. It's just lately... I've been wondering...
(holds his own fist in the beam of sunlight)
what it'd be like...
(watches his hand sizzle)
to share the slaughter of innocents... with another man.
(turns his hand over so the palm is in the light now; looks admiringly at it as it smokes)
Don't... don't think that makes me some kind of a deviant, hmm?
(pulls his hand back close to his face)
Do you?
I mean, good Chirst, who hears that little exchange and doesn't think about sex? Of course, it became canon in ep 21. "We were never intimate...except that one..."

The long smoldering looks between Angel and Lindsay, culminating in "I want you Lindsay." (We're talking about subtext here...)

And god, there's so much between Angel and Wes that you'd have to be blind not to see it. My favorite was the episode where ANgel jumped on Wes naked and held him against the floor for a few second. Or wearing the pink helmet--"It'll mess up my hair"--and they were the best gay dads ever.

I know that I like the idea of gay sex and will read slash when it comes my way, but one of the main reasons for that is because AFAIC, it's very nearly canon. Well, some of it is canon now. Angel and Wes were the ambiguously gay duo for awhile there. Contrast that to people who like SPike/Xander in the BtVS fandom. I can't stand Spander. It would never happen. There's no sexual tension. THere's nothing there that would make me believe crazy monkey sex would ever happen. I have to believe a pairing is remotely viable before reading or writing fic, so that means I am discriminate about what slash I enjoy because there are some pairings that is nothing more than "these people are really hot! They should have sex!" But that happens with het fic too...

So in conclusion, Spike/Angel is canon...
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  #14  
Old 05-21-2004, 09:10 PM
DocCathode DocCathode is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl
Contrast that to people who like SPike/Xander in the BtVS fandom. I can't stand Spander. It would never happen. There's no sexual tension. THere's nothing there that would make me believe crazy monkey sex would ever happen. I have to believe a pairing is remotely viable before reading or writing fic, so that means I am discriminate about what slash I enjoy because there are some pairings that is nothing more than "these people are really hot! They should have sex!" ...
Spander would never happen. Spandrew OTOH

"Bloody 'ell! I just told the boy who's got 'is arms around me 'ow to make a bloomin onion."

"Uh . . . Spike we're on a motorcycle. My arms are only around you so I don't fall off. I'm not gonna fondle you or anything."

"Why not? Ain't I good enough for ya?"

"Uh . . . I'm not gay."

"Sure, an I'm the Bishop of Canterbury. I saw you pack for this trip. I damn well know that ain't a can of Pringles in your pocket. You're a young, naive poof who 'as low self esteem and needs reassurance. I'm a much older bisexual man with a fondness for chicken. Now, open me pants and find out the real reason they call me Spike."
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  #15  
Old 05-21-2004, 09:11 PM
capacitor capacitor is offline
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Are you kidding? There is material that can be considered Kirk/Spock slash throughout all of Classic Trek--that the original writers wrote in, and Shatner and Nimoy acted on! They thought nothing of it.

The flirting, the sighing, the Jackie Kennedy-like slumping when the two are together. Then there is the episode 'Amok Time', where the two showed more intimacy than Spock and T'Pring could ever muster ('Jim!').
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  #16  
Old 05-21-2004, 09:14 PM
capacitor capacitor is offline
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Slash that should be more of:

Wesley/Gunn;

Buffy/Willow!!!!

Darla/Druscilla;

Tara/Fred.
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  #17  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:07 PM
vivalostwages vivalostwages is offline
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Hell, I found out there was Goofus and Gallant slash by reading this Board!

There's even Aubrey/Maturin slash.

There's no end to it.
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  #18  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:29 PM
kushiel kushiel is offline
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Yaoi (Japanese slash, as aforementioned) is justified by a lot of girls by saying they don't like the female characters - so they put the guys together.

If this was an encyclopedia entry, it'd say 'See Relena Peacecraft '

*barely came out of the Gundam Wing fandom alive*
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:33 PM
Priam Priam is offline
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Can't speak for slash, but there appear to be plenty of college-aged women who really like gay porn. My friend's roommate is one of them... you can't move in their dorm without running into videos.

Let's not even talk about her computer. My friend just finds it funny.
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  #20  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:34 PM
racinchikki racinchikki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivalostwages
There's even Aubrey/Maturin slash.
You seem to say this with an air of incredulity. Have you read the same books I have? They're practically MARRIED to each other!
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  #21  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:49 PM
Annie Annie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl
Also, there's the subtext to consider. I can't speak for other fandoms, but there's so much gay subtext in Angel that it very nearly is text.
As Giles once said, "I believe the subtext here is rapidly becoming text".

Quote:
My favorite was the episode where Angel jumped on Wes naked and held him against the floor for a few second.
Refresh my memory; which ep was that??? roots through box o' tapes.



Quote:
and they were the best gay dads ever.
Yeah, until that little kidnapping incident
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  #22  
Old 05-21-2004, 11:08 PM
shy guy shy guy is offline
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Quote:
Also, there's the subtext to consider. I can't speak for other fandoms, but there's so much gay subtext in Angel that it very nearly is text.
Pepperlandgirl makes a really good point. I think there tends to be more slash when it comes to shows that are already kind of slashy in themselves. I mean, you barely have to do any work to write Smallville slash, and there are a hojillion Firefly slash fics when that show hardly aired.
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  #23  
Old 05-21-2004, 11:40 PM
pepperlandgirl pepperlandgirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie
As Giles once said, "I believe the subtext here is rapidly becoming text".



Refresh my memory; which ep was that??? roots through box o' tapes.
Heh, the same ep where Angel wore the pink helmet. First Impressions 2.03.
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  #24  
Old 05-22-2004, 12:52 AM
Annie Annie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl
Heh, the same ep where Angel wore the pink helmet. First Impressions 2.03.
"Hop on, gorgeous!" Yeah, that slash writes itself.
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  #25  
Old 05-22-2004, 01:09 AM
Miss Purl McKnittington Miss Purl McKnittington is offline
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Heh. You find slash disturbing? I find the weird incest stories that people in the Harry Potter and LotR fandoms craft FAR more disturbing. (Those are the only two I've read. Well, and a little Sherlock Holmes, which is generally not as disturbing.) It only gets weirder in the HP-verse when the author decides that ALL the characters are going to be in horribly age inappropriate relationships . . . gah! Now that's a peeve of mine -- I'm perfectly cool with slashy relationships. Heck, a Lupin/Black relationship even makes sense. But there's no need for Ginny or Hermione or Draco to seduce Professor Snape, okay? (Or DUMBLEDORE!) Even if all the pairings conveniently happen in seventh year.

Argh. Sorry. The Snape luvverin' just twigs me out.

Anyway, rest assured that there are stranger things out there than Kirk/Spock slash.
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  #26  
Old 05-22-2004, 01:18 AM
DocCathode DocCathode is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lillalette
Heh. You find slash disturbing? I find the weird incest stories that people in the Harry Potter and LotR fandoms craft FAR more disturbing. .
Than your lucky stars my selfcontrol has won a rare victory and this post does not contain Dawn/Buffy, and Connor/Angel
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  #27  
Old 05-22-2004, 02:52 AM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lillalette
But there's no need for Ginny or Hermione or Draco to seduce Professor Snape, okay? (Or DUMBLEDORE!) Even if all the pairings conveniently happen in seventh year.
I too am troubled that such stories even exist. Hogwarts is usually portrayed in the books as a great school, the sort any kid would love to attend. Sure, some classes are boring and some teachers are unfair, but most are good. Some kids are bullies, but most are nice. The stuff students learn is interesting and useful, and they have plenty of opportunity to play games, eat candy, and have fun with their friends. It's a bit upsetting to me that some people can look at the setting Rowling created and say "You know what would make this idealized learning institution even better? If teachers were screwing their adolescent students!"

And aside from being pervy, it's not even remotely consistent with the text. I can buy that the administration might be willing to turn a blind eye to late-teens students gettin' busy with each other, but there's no way Dumbledore would tolerate sexual relationships between teachers and students. And under Muggle law at least, it wouldn't be legal even if the student were of age. But people have the right to write whatever weirdo stories they like, just as I have the right to keep far, far away from them.
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  #28  
Old 05-22-2004, 03:22 AM
vivalostwages vivalostwages is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racinchikki
You seem to say this with an air of incredulity. Have you read the same books I have? They're practically MARRIED to each other!
Yes, I've read a lot of them.

No, it wasn't incredulity. I would have used the Incredulous Smiley for that.
Just pointing out a fact.
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  #29  
Old 05-22-2004, 08:29 AM
Miss Mapp Miss Mapp is online now
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About text and plausibility:

I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm writing a slashy story, I'm not seeking to write a dissertation on "Homoerotic Subtext in Star TreK" or in LOTR, or whatever. This is not my doctoral thesis; it's a sex fantasy. I'll use whatever I can get out of the book, film, TV series, etc. as a basis for story ideas, but I'm not trying to provide incontrovertable textual proof that my two chosen characters are actually "doing it." After all, if that were a Yes or No question with only one possible answer, then I'd only have one story to write about them, and where's the fun in that? The more subtext there is to base a multitude of scenarios on, the better.

Having a near-canonical relationship to work with is very good. For example, I've written Garak/Bashir for years; Andy Robinson has often said that he's played Garak as being attracted to Bashir, and it's nice to have his support. However, it's not absolutely necessary to have that to write about a pairing. Some people can do it on the slenderest of premises, using only their desire to see two characters they find attractive get together, without worrying about how plausible it might be. And some pairings, yes, I do find extremely bizarre, highly unlikely, or even a bit disturbing, but if it's what the writer likes, who I am to tell her she shouldn't do it? If it's something I don't care for, I just don't read it.
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