Nuclear Power Is Green!

No, seriously. Ever hear of Dr. James Lovelock? Invented the Gaia hypothesis way back when. Smart guy, creative. Good thinker. He says we need nuclear power. Now, I’ve been saying this, in a low key way for years, that nuclear power has a bum rap, and it’s no more polluting than coal, for example. That it is possible to run it safely, and that it’s a lot better than our current issues in Cali. (Of course, I also say that we need deep ocean current turbines. Free energy is a good thing)

Any comments? Una?

I have to agree with this guy - increased nuclear power could greatly cut back on the need for coal power plants, to provide steady, round-the-clock power; solar and wind still have problems in providing steady amounts of power. Of course, to reduce the amount of nuclear waste produced, and the amount of uranium mining you need to do, the US needs to start reprocessing its waste - the French and Japanese manage to reprocess their waste with minimal problems.

I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. Clearly from the point of view of greenhouse gas emissions, it is beneficial relative to fossil fuels. However, the issues of waste, accidental release of radiation, terrorists attack, and nuclear proliferation are real problems.

Also, in the U.S., nuclear power seems to have failed economically. Now, one can argue that this is because there are lots of subsidies and effective subsidies (in the form of externalized environmental costs) associated with the use of fossil fuels. [Indeed, comparisons with France and Japan show that nuclear power is not really cheaper there but rather that using fossil fuels to generate electricity is much more expensive than here in the U.S.] However, nuclear power is the second most subsidized form of energy after fossil fuels, so the solution should be to reduce the subsidies on fossil fuels rather than to increase the subsidies on nuclear power, since the latter approach will advantage it relative to clean alternatives that do not have as severe downsides as nuclear power does.

Unfortunately, this issue has gotten too politicized on both sides. I think some environmental groups have been too close-minded on nuclear power. On the other side, the Bush Administration and other conservatives have endorsed it too knee-jerkly…i.e., been too willing to subsidize the heck out of it and not seriously recognize its drawbacks and consider other fossil fuel alternatives and conservation measures.

This is the key to the debate.

Nuclear power was promoted until the 70s as being cheap or even free. The costs of potential environmental damage were minimised or ignored. Once the full costs of containment, site rehabilitation and waste disposal were factored in, nuclear power was uncompetitive.

We’re seeing the same thing now with fossil fuels. Potential costs of environmental damage is being discounted by the Bushies. At the moment, fossil fuel is cheap, because of the failure to regulate and account for externalities.

I think many of the problems with the US nuclear industry can be fixed by standardizing, rather than having every energy company do it themselves (I think the US navy has demonstrated that we know how to do this stuff). Although having a single or a few nuclear companies probably makes more sense then having dozens of independent nuclear power companies.

Finding a safe and NIMBY-proof waste disposal location/method is another issue, but not necessarily a deal breaker.

The biggest problem, as Jshore notes, is that fossil fuels are just so damn cheap. Cost per Kilowatt-Hour is the driving force in choosing between nuclear/fossil/miscellaneous. As long as the industry feels that oil prices in the long term aren’t going up much nukes don’t make economic sense (except in areas with poor access to fossil fuels). The market is largely in charge here.

A somewhat flip question: is the US uranium (or other appropriate radioisotope) independent? Will we merely be replacing dependence on one set of semi-stable resource dependent countries with another?

Monty Burns made a great case last night (Sunday, 8 pm Eastern, on Fox) that nuclear power is cheap and safe. He also pointed out that the windmills used for turning wind into electricity is very dangerous. They can chop the head right off of a hippie.

According to the Canadian Nuclear FAQ:

Nuclear does not have to be expensive. I’ve been fighting for nuclear power for 20 years. IMO, the environmental movement’s hatred of nuclear power has been a disaster.

Just as a point of correction, only a few percent of our electrical power is produced by oil. Here are the numbers from memorty: Coal is the biggest player (producing somewhere around half, I believe). Natural gas is the next biggest now, I think, although it may be neck-in-neck with nuclear. Nuclear produces about 20%. And, renewables (mainly hydroelectric) contribute about 8%.

Oil is used primarily directly, i.e., to run our vehicles. So, oil doesn’t really play into the issue until we start to think about electric cars or hydrogen-powered cars in which case we would be replacing oil with whatever we used to produce the electricity or hydrogen.

If nuclear power is so cheap, why hasn’t it succeeded in the marketplace (despite heavy subsidization)? One possible answer is that fossil fuels are even more heavily subsidized, but I am not sure this is the whole story.

And windmills are dangerous to whom? I don’t even think the windmills blades come close to the ground. There is some possible concern about danger to birds but I believe that it’s considered to be a soluble problem, with things like not siting them in major fly zones and the fact that the newer windmills have more slowly rotating blades than the old ones.

I always thought nuclear power cost so much in the US because the plants cost so much to build in the US. And one of the main reason that plants cost so much to build in the US is all the environmentalist foot dragging that makes them so hard and costly to build. Try to build a plant and the first thing you run into is protests, delays in work, court battles, etc. I know that we’ve seen our share of nuclear power plants that had their building delayed by environmental groups repeatedly, and end up costing a hell of a lot more than they WOULD have otherwise.

A friend of mine works as a contractor on the Yucca Mtn. waste disposal project in Nevada. He says that the various environmental groups have basically tripled the cost of the thing (at least)…and its STILL not a go. People want scientists to give them a 100% guarentee that in 25,000 years nothing possibly could ever go wrong there…and NO scientist is going to ever make an absolutist statement like that. Politicians and environmental groups use this to insert uncertainty into the equation and scare folks who don’t know about probability statistics, nor understand why scientists can’t and won’t give 100% guarentees on things like this. And so, the costs go up and up…and its we who pay.

So, if people wouldn’t protest so much and be so resistant to having the things, I think the costs would go down. I’m not saying that safety standards shouldn’t be kept at a high level, or that people shouldn’t be concerned and demand the best possible protections…just that this constant knee jerk protesting and foot dragging helps no one. Even if nuclear power DOES cost more than fosil fuel buring plants, I think it would be a good idea to start weening ourselves of dependance on them. Better to get started now, while we have the choice, than later when the fosil fuels start to run low…

-XT

Count me as another supporter of Nuclear Energy.

It seems that it has a few things going against it, some of which are pernicious memes and bad experiences that aren’t likely to be repeated (e.g. Chernobyl, Three Mile Island).

As I see it:

Cons:

  1. Very expensive to build new plants.
  2. Lead time to build new plants is large. Much of this seems to be bureaucratic constraints however.
  3. Finite supply of appropriate starting materials (how much?)
  4. Very bad P.R. problem. It has not helped that environmentalists have condemned Nuclear Energy to the extent that they have, without giving realistic alternatives. I get the impression that much of the objection to nuclear energy by the average person on the street has not been well thought out and is purely visceral distaste.
  5. Potential for proliferation of nuclear devices, weapons if not regulated well.

Pros:

  1. Clean, compared to coal, oil, wood!
  2. Properly disposed of, the waste generated should not be a deal-breaking issue. I honestly do not see what the big fuss with Yucca Mountain is! Also, why are people so worried about transport of nuclear waste through their cities, but almost never make a peep about radioactive materials being transported TO reactors?
  3. Relieves some of the pressures on natural gas and oil, allowing those resources to be used for transport, where energy sources that are storable and have high energy densities are most appropriate.

To give a bit of historical perspective, when the nuclear power industry was set up they had three basic tenets they were supposed to follow:
1.) Build the plants in remote areas
2.) Keep each reactor small
3.) Build in redundancy

The unfortunately reality was that each of those principles were ignored in the late 70’s early 80’s. The problem is that with population growth in the US it is getting harder to build in remote areas (especially Cali.). Small reactors are slightly less efficient, and slightly more costly than larger ones. And redundancy costs money. Those last two were sacrificed to keep costs down.

I also think the terrorism angle is over played. I won’t deny that for a terrorist (or criminal) to get their hands on large amounts of radioactive material is a bad thing. But at the same time, we offer no protection for the thousands of tanker trucks hauling petrolium and natural gas that would make for a spectacular disaster. DHS has also had come to realize that ocean tankers are a huge risk moving in and out of highly populated harbour/river areas.

But before you criticize nuclear power, try to keep in mind that chances are everything you know about it is based on 50 year old technology. I really wish Canada would make use of its remote north, surrounded by extremely cold water, and our personal supply of uranium. Sadly I fear Greenpeace has won out on this issue…

I think you were whooshed here :slight_smile:

Definitely a whoosh. :slight_smile: This was definitely said tongue firmly in cheek:

-XT

Seems like most of the commercial power plants are unique plant designs. How much of the red tape could be saved by having a handfull of “pre-approved” designs that the energy contractors would have to build to specification, rather than having the energy contractors design (and sometimes build) the plants and then submit them to NRC for review/approval?

The problem with such claims is they often never seem to come with any hard evidence. Maybe it’s true but maybe it ain’t. And, in fact, if you go to the nuclear industry’s own website, you don’t even seem to be able to find claims like these. In fact, what they do seem to do is play up the fact that nuclear power actually saves in “compliance costs” that are increasing for fossil fuel plants as pollution regulations get tighter (see here and here). In that sense, the Bush Administration’s relaxation of the New Source Review regs would be working in the wrong direction.

The fact is that nuclear plants are very costly to build because they are very costly to build…Very capital-intensive. And, sure a lot of this cost is due to safety systems but noone has shown that the safety regulations are too strict and in fact there have been a number of close calls. (Unfortunately, it is hard to come up with probabilities for rare events such as a serious accident at a nuclear power plant, so we are left to estimate probabilities and to look into “close calls” and less serious accidents for guidance.)

I was sort of wondering this myself. However, the fact that that statement was said tongue-in-cheek does not necessarily mean he wasn’t making a real claim about them being dangerous. I guess only Ravenman himself can answer that.

By the way, there was an article in Scientific American a few years ago about some new ideas for nuclear power plant designs including ones that are said to be “inherently safe”. I don’t know how far along these designs really are…i.e., if they are ready to be tried out.

A long time ago France concluded that since the had no oil, no gas, no coal, that they had No Choice but to go Nuclear. Their National School turns our officers for the armed forces and the national nuclear operations. A class of reactors is designed, built, commissioned and operated. If a change is deemed neccessary the same change is made to all reactors in that class.

In the US a large number of students were taught nuclear theory, reactors, etc. Their employers each went their own way designing their own versions. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission imposed the design restrictions, etc. Hence, in general, every nuclear reactor in the US is different from every other, no co-ordination, no real sharing of experiences etc.

An accident like 3-mile island and everyonce goes ape. Inadequate and or inaccurate information resulted in unnesessary panic and fear.

Monty Burns + nuclear power + 8 pm Sunday + Fox + decapitated hippies = the latest episode of the Simpsons.

Let me say this as clearly as I can: I do not believe that windmills constitute an imminent threat to the noggins of anti-nuclear activists.

That’s what I get for not having a tv set! I was wondering why I couldn’t find “Monty Burns” in a google search. Is he Homer’s boss at the plant?

January 2002 issue. You can read the first couple of paragraphs here.

My impression is that the high-level radioactive waste has much higher levels of radiactivity than the original fuel materials.

The US actually has another nuclear program whose experience which pretty much duplicates that of France - the navy. Standardization, rigorous training and brutal safety monitoring all have allowed the navy to safely run dozens of nuclear power plants (albeit under somewhat different circumstances than land based plants.) My understanding (which, admittedly, comes from a biased source) is that US nuclear plants which employ substantial numbers of ex-navy guys tend to be better run then those run by internally trained personnel. And poorly managed plants tend to bring the rep of the whole industry down.
Jshore: Okay, substitute fossil fuels for oil. I think the point still stands. I think you are right about fossil being subsidized, effectively if not explicitly.

Interesting links for current power generation:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html

Apparently nuclear is already number 2 to coal.

here Electricity - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) there is an excel file with proposed electrical generating units - my home excel is old so if anyone can take a look and see what the immediate future holds. . .