Free Will is possible, but relative

Free will is possible, but it is relative.

The argument against the possibility of free will I have usually seen is this:
Either rules determine what we choose, or they do not. If rules determine our actions, then they are not free. If rules do not determine our actions, then our actions are random, and therefore not choices.

I see no flaw with this argument. However, I think it leaves room for a different view of free will – a relativistic view of free will.

This argument implicitly places the reader in the frame of reference of one who is omniscient – it refers to all the rules that could determine a choice. From this frame of reference, indeed, there is no free will. However, if we remove the omniscience, then there is certainly room for free will.

Suppose I ask you to guess whether I will choose either ‘A’ or ‘B.’ If you are omniscient, you would be able to determine which choice I will make. If you are not omniscient, however, it will seem to you that I have a choice.

Lets put some money on it, and actually make it a bet. You guess whether I will choose ‘A’ or ‘B.’ If you are right, you get $1 from me. If I am right, I get $1 from you.

  1. Suppose I get to hear your guess before I make my choice – then in this situation I am truly free. I can completely control whether you get $1 or I get $1, regardless of your choice.

  2. Suppose I have to write my choice down before you make your choice – then neither of us are free – we cannot control who gets $1. In essence, because there is no inherent difference between ‘A’ and ‘B’ both of our choices are random. If we cooperate, then together, we can both be free – if we both have the same will (say for you to receive $1, then we can negotiate to both pick ‘A’), then, together, we are free.

  3. Suppose you get to read what I wrote down (my choice) before you make your guess. In this case, it is you who is free – you can completely control how money will change hands, regardless of your choice.

But all of this freedom is relative to you and me.

Suppose you add a third person, Bob. Suppose you and I are playing game #3 above. Suppose that unbeknownst to me, You and Bob are playing a side game. Bob doesn’t get to look at my paper, but he gets to hear your guess before he makes his guess. In your side game, if Bob chooses the same thing I choose, then he wins $1 from you. If he chooses the opposite of me, then he loses $1 from you.

So we have:

  1. I write down ‘A’ or ‘B’.
  2. You look at my choice.
  3. You choose ‘A’ or ‘B’ aloud.
  4. Bob chooses ‘A’ or ‘B’ aloud.
  5. Bets are settled.

From my point of view, you are still free. You can still control which of us gets $1.

But from Bob’s point of view, your choice is constrained. If Bob chooses what you choose, then no matter what you choose, you will break even – you are only choosing whether I get $1 or Bob gets $1. On the other hand, if Bob chooses the opposite of what you choose, then no matter what you choose, Bob will break even. In essence, Bob can choose whether you have control over your own money, or his money. In Bob’s more knowledgeable frame of reference, you are not completely free.

Suppose we go one step further. Suppose Bob gets to look at my paper too before he makes his choice.

Now, from my point of view, you are still free. You still control who gets $1.

But from Bob’s point of view, you only get to choose how much money will be split between Bob and you. Bob gets to decide how the money is split. Even if you give me money, Bob can still take money from you at will. Relative to me, you are still free. But relative to Bob, you are not free.

I’m not going to comment much on your logic here. I think it has flaws, but after an awful day at work, I’m having trouble thinking clearly.

My view: I believe there is no such thing as free will, but I believe wholeheartedly in the impenetrable illusion of free will.

So you think my “logic is wrong” but you’re too lazy to say how –

Thanks for the contribution. Maybe you should try to get it published.

Play nice now. No need to get personal.

Alright, two computers are programmed to play paper-rock-scissors. Computer A has to reveal first. Therefore computer B is free to choose whether it will win or lose. Therefore computer B has free will?

You seem to be implying that control over the situation is equal to free will. Why do you make this leap?

I’d be more excited about your conclusion if I thought that the concept of “free will” made any sense to begin with.

Free will is not possible per my relatives, they are all Calvinists.
:smiley:

Ok, that’s better :wink:

So yes, relative to the first computer, the second computer has free will – the second computer determines the outcome of the game. This assumes that the outcome of the game is significant to the behavior of the first computer, which is unlikely.

Relative to its programmer, the second computer is still deterministic.

Yes, I am implying that control is required for free will. How can you make a choice if you don’t have a choice?

Would you like sugar with your coffee or sugar?

I believe that “free will” is a meaningless phrase. The illusion of ‘choice’ comprises two parts: a calculation and a random element.

As I asked in that thread, if you made the same choice every single time given the same situation, ie. if your brain persistently calculated the same ‘answer’ from similar ‘input’, would that be free will? I would say not - that would seem to be the very epitomy of determinism.

So what about a ‘random’ element? Does a dice ‘choose’ the face it shows? Is a neutron ‘free’ in when it is emitted? This does not sound like ‘will’ either.

And so, what if the ‘calculation’ took in a vastly complex multitude of inputs, some of which were constant, some of which were from a ‘feedback’ loop and some of which were essentially random? Would such a calcuation, which was to some extent predictable in that there were some answers it never gave, but whose answer was highly unpredictable amongst the possible answers, have any ‘free will’ inherent in it?

I would disagree straight away here. Omniscience in this sense would require knowledge of all of the ‘rules’ of quantum states, whose values are fundamentally unknowable.

Fundamentally unknowable to elements contained within the network(“Universe”). I doubt we can claim that an actor from outside who can somehow inject its self into the network would necessarily be constrained by the same rules.

Free will is an absurd concept. To paint in broad strokes, humans categorize Change mostly as motion. Within this temporal flow of motion, events have been demarcated as a cause->effect framework, where within the constraints of human perception and comprehension, the cause counterpart of human motor action is designated as Intent and the effect counterpart as {Behavior,Attitude…}. From personal experential analysis, the cause counterpart consists of thought processes. Based on human conceit, lack of comprehension, and inaccessibility of qualia of the chain of events between thought and motor action, “free will” is said to be injected into human Change. So far, this is just a conceited assumption with no real basis behind it. True “free will” requires a soul. Since if there’s no discrete counterpart behind the facade of our selves, free will is injected into all elements of the Universe, or into none. Either case belies the essential human understanding of free will.

Agreed. In which case, the omniscient agent will know all of the three agent’s ‘decisions’ in advance, including precisely when one of them will change their mind.

I believe your first statement is not accurate.

We in the U.S. live in a free country, but there are laws. We can do what we will as long as no one is harmed, and what we do is by choice. You can’t do anything without thinking about it.
If you are speaking of greater realities, the law is “you will reap what you sow”, but you have freedom to choose what you will do and that will determine your life.

Love

If the choice between ‘A’ and ‘B’ is decided by quantum states which are fundimentally unknowable, then in what sense is it a choice? It is just a coincidence. The person choosing between ‘A’ and ‘B’ is not really making the choice; the quantum states are in control. But it seems very unlikely that the quantum states have any reason to prefer ‘A’ or ‘B,’ much like game #2 in my OP, so there is no free will here, from the perspective of the omniscient entity.

That is my whole point – from the perspective of something omniscient, of course there is no free will. In order to experience free will, (in order to see control through superior information) you must have incomplete information.

I think we are fundamentally in agreement, jawdirk. A “choice” is simply a calculation from many different inputs, some of them essentially random. Even a ‘choice’ by an omniscient entity is a calculation - it just has no random inputs.

Possibly free will doesnt exist. Only the illusion of free will, because the causes of our behavior are so complex that we can’t trace them back. if you’ve got one line of dominoes knocking each other down one by one, then you can always say, look this domino fell because that one pushed it. But when you have an infinite number of directions, you can never find where the casual change begins. So you think, tThat domino fell because it wanted to.

Even if there is no such thing as free weill, we have to treat each other as if there were free will in order to live together in society because otherwise, every time somebody does something terrible, you can’t punish him, because he can’t help it, because his genes or his enviornment or God made him do it, eand every time somebody does soemthing good, you can’t honor him because he was a puppet too. If you think that everybody around you is a puppet, why bother talking to them at all? why even try to plan on anything or create anything since everythign you plan or create or desire or dream of is just acting out the script your upuppeteer built into you. So we conceive of ourselves and everyone around us as volitional beings. We treat everyone as if they did thigns with a purpose in mind, instead of because tehy’re being pushed from behind. We punish crimnals. We reward altruists. We plan things and build things together. we make promises and expect each other to keep them. It’s all a made up story, but when eveybody belives that everybodys actions are the result of free choice, and takes and gives responsibilty accordingly, the result is civilization.

I don’t agree with this. Suppose you have an ant problem in your house. You buy ant poison and kill them off. Did you do that because the ants had free will, or because they were getting into your food? Why not just punish people who do bad things, and reward people who do good things, because that is what must be done? Why must free will come into the equation at all?

The justice system acts as an input into the wondrously complex “calculation”. If CRIME, then PUNISHMENT becomes hard-wired from childhood. ‘Free will’ remains an unnecessary entity.

Well whos to judge what a person does is bad or good? People need a reason to punish people, and if we had no free will, no choice to do what we did, then how could they punish you. If the ant had no choice but to go in and get into your food you could not punish it. Throw free will into the picture and it seems as though the ant intended to ruin your food, therefore giving you reason to punish the ant.

I don’t really care whether the ant has free will. If it gets into my Cocoa Crispies it is going to die. Are you saying that isn’t fair?

To put it a little closer to home – if you try to kill the president, the secret service is not going to stop and ask you if you have free will. You will be shot. Does anyone (besides me) think that is unfair? No, because punishment is sometimes justified regardless of whether the criminal had free will.

I don’t really care whether the ant has free will. If it gets into my Cocoa Crispies it is going to die. Are you saying that isn’t fair?

To put it a little closer to home – if you try to kill the president, the secret service is not going to stop and ask you if you have free will. You will be shot. Does anyone (besides me) think that is unfair? No, because punishment is sometimes justified regardless of whether the criminal had free will.

Well they wouldn’t have to ask if you have free will, seeing as everyone assumes that everyone has free will. And whether or not its fair isnt the question. Life isnt fair, we all know that.

I’d like to hear your arguments against the existence of free will.

To me free will is so obviously true, I can’t imagine it to be imaginary!