When games of chance become games of skill, and the house gets an attitude

Factual Questions
1

After watching a History channel program on the MIT Blackjack Team, I have to ask, what is illegal about what they did such that they were banned from various casinos?

Understood that there are very few games which aren’t those of chance. However, they weren’t using computers other than those in their heads, and weren’t utilizing any form of cheating such as slugs, loaded dice, or marked cards.

Highly skilled poker players aren’t thrown out, and this is obviously not a skill which the average schlub will acquire, so why the big deal-other than some very smart young men and women under the tutelage of a mathematics professor learned how to make the odds of probability work in their favor? :21 smiley:

2

Basically it’s very simple. Casinos don’t want to lose money. They are in the business of winning, and they can do that by having the odds in their favor. If someone is using a system, they aren’t “cheating” but the casino, because it doesn’t want to lose money, kicks them out.

I don’t think that card counting is “illegal”, ie, they couldn’t go to jail for it. But casinos can kick you out for any reason. If they think you are counting cards they’ll kick you out. That’s their right. It’s an economic decision not a moral one.

Anyway, now the casinos use more decks and shuffle often, so basically you can’t count cards anymore, I don’t think. It won’t help you.

3

It is my understanding that casinos can throw out whoever they want and certainly don’t have to serve someone they don’t want to. They see someone who wins a lot, they simply don’t serve him. It isn’t a legal matter, just a matter of policy.

4

There was a case recently in London, where a gang were using a camera hidden in a mobile phone to track the motion of the roulette ball, and report back on the mobile phone the best portion of the wheel to bet on. IIRC, they’re banned from just about every casino in the country, but the police went on record that no law had been broken.

5

Poker players also aren’t winning the house’s money. They’re winning money from other players and the house takes a rake off the pot. So there’s a lot less interest on the part of the casino if a good poker player sits down, and if the player has a reputation (is a professional or has won a big tournament) then players who might not otherwise sit down might do so to take on the rep.

6

There are methods that can shift the odds even against multi deck shoes. Its less effective but still helps. From my ex-gf the blackjack dealer, they were taught some of the common counting systems and would “play along” with the system in their heads. If a player consistently makes decisions in line with the “count system” they will notify the pit boss at the next dealer change and security will watch you via cameras. If you still play by the system for a while they will ask you to leave. Having said that, its usually not a huge issue at a $2 blackjack table. If someone comes in with $20, pumps it up to $100 and starts on the bigger tables and starts winning again there, they will be watching.

7

Customers pay to play, liabilities are paid to play. :smiley:

8

Counting multi-deck shoes is, if anything, easier than counting single decks.

The real weapon against counters is to deal many decks, and re-shuffle after only about half the shoe has been dealt. This means the average count will stay low, and make it hard to overcome the house advantage. This forces blackjack counters to do things like ‘wonging’, which means to stand up and not play if the count is bad, and only sit down and play at all when they have an advantage. And the casino can spot this unless it’s done very cleverly.

Most dealers are not taught how to count cards, nor are they expected to do it while dealing.

9

Like **Sam ** said-- most dealers don’t know how to count. And even if they do, it would be very difficult to keep an accurate track of the count and deal and pay out accurately at the same time.

Dealers don’t seem to even understand Basic Strategy so it follows that they can’t count cards well either.

Some casinos track the count from above via camera. If players start betting high on the good counts and lower on the bad counts, this is a red flag. Or, if a player suddendly shows up at the table when the count is high and plunks down a large bet, this is also a red flag. (That’s how the MIT guys did it I think-- it’s team playing.)

It pretty easy for a casino to track counters. If the stakes are low, sometimes they just let it pass.

Again, as **Sam ** said-- it’s not hard to count through 6, 8 or even 45 decks (contrary to what the movie “Rain Man” would have you believe). It’s the shoe penetration (when they choose to reshuffle) that effectively kills counting, although some places still have decent penetration.

10

Whats to stop a casino from just re-shuffling after every game? Seems like that would stop any card counters.

11

Shuffling slows down the game, which reduces the casino’s profit.

12

That’s right. Nothing illegal about card-counting.

I recently read the book about the MIT guys, and IIRC the author said that Nevada casinos are much more likely to turf you out for counting than casinos in Atlantic City. Apparently, Nevada laws are much more friendly to the owners of gambling establishments (for obvious reasons) than the laws of other states where gambling is allowed.

13

Don’t they have automatic card-shuffling machines? They could just keep 2 or 3 decks in rotation and it wouldn’t slow down the game.

14

If a casino were to eject someone because of race, religious observation, or sexual orientation, the ACLU would be all over them like a bad suit, choose clubs, diamonds, or paisley. Is that a matter of policy? Shouldn’t intelligent people receive equal protection from discrimination?

15

I don’t know if I’m being whooshed here. Your point is so ludicrous that I would assume so, except that people do make pretty laughable analogies when discussing discrimination law. But assuming you’re serious, why are the situations analogous? Smart people aren’t a class that’s frequently discriminated against. Nor are smart people discriminated against here - it’s people who count cards. “People who count cards” hardly makes sense to me as a protected class. Blackness, for example, is an unavoidable, unchangeable aspect of who you are. Counting cards is not.

16

Can you cite the law which you believe prevents casinos from ejecting either people who count cards or “intelligent” people? State or federal, take your pick.

17

I’ve been ejected from several casinos, and it has never been for “counting cards”. Typically, when you count unsuccessfully (meaning you were detected. Anyone can count with practice, doing so while remaining undetected is the difficult part) usually a pit boss or even a floor manager will approach you. If you are actively involved in a hand, they will wait till you finish your hand. At that point they will get your attention either directly, or directing the dealer to not deal to you anymore.

There are several creative ways which casinos will inform you that your business is no longer welcome, but I have never had a casino employee give me the reason as “counting cards”.

When I ask why I’m being asked to stop playing, I’ve had them tell me,

“Here at the xxx casino, we don’t appreciate your style of play.”

“You’re too good for us.”

“I think you know why.”

And always after I’ve been told to stop playing, I have always been told that I’m welcome to play any other game in the house, just not blackjack. So really, you don’t get kicked out per se. However, if you attempt to play again either a short time afterwards, the next day, or some future time and they realize that the casino has already asked you not to play, you will most likley be informed of the state laws regarding tresspassing and told that the next time you enter the property you will be arrested for trespassing. Not counting cards.

From what I’ve been told, it would be difficult to arrest you for trespassing prior to informing you of the laws against trespass. Therefore, it is of little risk to continue to attempt to thwart the casino, until such warning is given. Of course, this is assuming the casino doesn’t take you to the back and put your head in a vice, like in the movie Casino.

Automatic shuffling machines exist at several casinos I’ve been to, but you generally wouldn’t have multiple decks going at the same time. I have seen places that utilize a continuous shuffle, which periodically reintroduces burnt cards back into circulation. There is not beating this, and card counters would not play at these places (maybe a single deck, but not a multi deck game).

Keeping a count while dealing would be quite difficult. Keeping a count while conversing casually takes a bit of effort. Keeping the count while interacting with customers, and trying to calculate 3/2 odds on a $46.50 bet and then watching as 6 other people at the table who are inebrieated demand a “hit card” after they’ve already busted to see if they can get the dealer to make a mistake makes it even more difficult. Combine that with the fact that most dealers get training of about 8 days (the training I and my coworkers got) and are sent to the floor, leads me to believe that most of the dealers that know how to count, can do so while activley dealing, and choose to do so, would have done so outside the scope of their normal employment.

I tried it when I was a dealer a while back. I could do it, barley, probably not that well. The payoff for doing it, none. I stopped and just had fun dealing blackjack shortly thereafter.

18

[QUOTE=danceswithcats]
After watching a History channel program on the MIT Blackjack Team, QUOTE]

Can you tell me the name of that program? I’d like to catch it when it’s on again.

19

Here ya go.

And here’s the book that it’s based on. I haven’t seen the documentary, bit i read the book recently and really enjoyed it.

20

The counter is not being blacklisted for who he is, but for what he does, specifically a “what” that is relevant to the implicit terms of the transaction. If you’re a mathematical genius who could not avoid counting and betting the count consistently even on a vicodin-rohypnol cocktail, you’re expected to do the sporting thing and let others have their fun and the casino its profit.

Think of it this way: the buffet can’t kick you out for race, religion or sex, but if you pull the whole tray of chicken-in-orange-sauce from the steam table and take it to your seat, or move your stool over to the salad bar and sit right there chowing down on the hummus, they will – even if it’s “all-you-can-eat”.

The thing is, the non-counters (including people who think they can count but really are nowhere near) generate enough revenue that the casino finds it more cost effective to try and stop those who can count, than to do away with blackjack.