Now I really am pitting Lance Armstrong directly (And yes, he is doped)

[threemae]

I started a thread a week or so ago pitting the Tour for generally being lackluster and missing excitement. Frankly, things have turned around a bit, and things ended on a more exciting tone than the first flat stages turned out. Maybe LeBlanc will get smarter and not choose to front-load the Tour with flats next year leaving every single mountain stage to the last week. Anyway, what is leading to me deciding to pit Armstrong directly is his actions on Stage 18. But before we get there, let’s get a bit of background first.

Like it or not, Armstrong is doped. This doesn’t automatically and singularly make him evil. I believe that dope is widespread and extremely problematic for the entire peleton. Even as it pains me to say it, this is almost certainly true even for the riders that I admire most, such a Tyler Hamilton. Again, Armstrong didn’t invent dope. It was there before, it’s certainly there now, and it will be there over the next few years, but that doesn’t mean that it should be the case. Now, of course hordes of, “He survived cancer,” “He’s a nice guy,” “He’s and American and the victim of a vast Froggy conspiracy!,” “He raised my puppy from the dead,” “He’s never failed a drug test!” Lance fans will quite reasonably ask for proof of this claim.

First off, it is obviously possible to be a full Tour-level elite cyclist and be doped without failing drug tests. See David Millar: 2003 World Time Trial champion who ended up to be on EPO, steroids, the whole gammut of illegal doping materials. Again, he never failed a single drug test, but this was uncovered via. careful work from French police to investigate on of their nation’s own cycling teams, Cofidis.

Cite:http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6619.0.html

There are individuals within the peleton that have made statements to the effect of saying the entire peleton is doped. Jesus Manzano rode for Kelme in 2003 in the Tour, and collapsed unexpectedly (he says he nearly died). He claims that he was injected with something unknown that morning and told by the team to use that day to attack; he should expect to have a good day that day. He is yet another rider that was clearly doped and never failed a drug test. He only spoke out in anger to Kelme’s management. Basically, they sacked him under the pretense that he had sex with a woman in the Vuelta against team rules, but in reality the team was facing financial implosion and desperately needed out of contracts with its riders.

Cite:http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5763.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5759.0.html

Now, what about Lance directly?
Respected journalist David Walsh, who has an extensive history of cycling journalism published LA Confidential last month detailing how several sources said that Lance Armstrong had engaged in doping. Its primary source is Emma O’Reilley, a former soigner for US Postal, who was once described as the, “Heart and Soul,” of US Postal. She left the team on good terms and was not paid for her statements in the book. The contacted Walsh on her own initiative.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6295.0.html
http://velonews.com/news/fea/6276.0.html

Last Thursday three time American Tour winner Greg Lemond made statements that he clearly believes LA to be doped, and talking about how doping is a serious problem within the sport that threatens both the safety of the riders and to implode the sport. An English version of the statements is here:
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Sto613945.shtml

Important excerpts:

@Eurosport

The Sunday Times quoted LeMond as lamenting Armstrong’s well documented association with Dr. Michele Ferrari, an Italian who is recognized as the chemical architect behind some of cycling’s more dubious teams.

“EPO is no more dangerous than orange juice,” Ferrari once told French sports daily L’Equipe.

Also:

“Lance insinuated that I couldn’t have won the Tour without EPO,” LeMond continued.

“That’s impossible because EPO wasn’t even around at the time,” LeMond said, nonetheless pegging the drug’s exact entry into the pro peloton.

“In 1990 I won the Tour and my team [Z] won the top-team classification. One year later, not one of us could follow the pace in the pack. There had been a radical change.”

Finally, this excelent from former American Tour-level pro Andy Hampsten:
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6660.0.html

What I found more compelling was the complete Le Monde. text. It clearly shows Greg, who remains unquestionably the father of the modern era of American cycling champions, standing up and declaring that professional cycling has been and, regrettably, still is rotten with drugs.

Like Greg, I, too, saw what I believe were the effects of EPO when it entered pro cycling in the early '90s. In the first years it grew from a few individuals reaping obscene wins from exploiting its “benefits,” to entire teams relying on it, essentially forcing all but the most gifted racers to either use EPO to keep their place in cycling, quit or become just another obscure rider in the group.

I had the honor of racing in eight Tours. Being happily retired, I can reflect on my small part in that race and enjoy seeing it motivate kids just as it did me. So like Greg LeMond, I cannot just sit idly by watching our sport continue to suffer from cheating. It’s time to tell the truth.

What does Lance do? Deny it all, and bad-mouth Lemond:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/news/articles/6571.0.html

I’m disappointed and dismayed that for the past four years Greg has continued to question my performances and character."

So, you say? Everybody dopes. He’s just doing it to stay even. Well, I’ll tell you what, he’s not just staying even. And if you’re doping with EPO, steroids, etc., I doubt that you’re submitting cute little notes to all the other teams, asking them what they’re using to maintain absolute parity in doping. You’re going out and looking for that extra edge with any drug that you can use. We can all pray that Postal doesn’t have some type of extra-advantage in doping that no one else has, but when a hundred thousand dollars has been dropped to develop a skin-suit for LA to shave a few seconds in the ITT, it’s hard to believe that they don’t also have a bit of an edge in dope over a D-II team like R.A.G.T Semences-Rover, this year’s pity-pick for the Tour.

Like it or not, doping is an integral part of Armstrong’s victories, and most likely an integral part of the fact that he managed to win SIX IN A GODDAMNED ROW!!!

But, whatever, right? Everyone’s looking for an edge, so what’s the problem?

This, my friends, is the truly pit-worthy act:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/details/articles/6647.0.html

First, a little history: Simeoni is a relatively unimportant rider that has worked with Armstrong’s former coach and current “advisor and friend” Dr. Michele Ferrari, the same one that we heard about earlier in this post that publicly stated EPO to be as safe as orange juice. Ferrari is soon to be tried in France for helping to dope riders, and Simeoni provided deposition against him in 2002 and publicly to the media in 2003, stating that Dr. Ferrari had advised him to dope. He never even said anything directly about Armstrong, only his direct experiences with Dr. Ferrari. So on Stage 18 of the Tour, when Simeoni managed to work himself into a break, Armstrong unexpectedly jumped his way up to the break and refused to leave until Simeoni did.

What type of bully, maffia-type, squeal and I’ll fuck up your career shit is that? That’s Mr. Armstrong’s way of defending himself against doping charges, and he’s being a huge, immature bitch about it.

Considering that doping poses very real and important safety risks, and that Armstrong himself might nearly have succumb to it’s risks (testicular cancer is linked to the use of testosterone), it would be cool if he could perhaps provide a bit of leadership against it. At the very least, simply deny it and ignore it, rather than acting to vindictively and personally bring down someone that has more foresight, and frankly, balls, to speak honestly about dope.

[WernhamHogg]

I would just say that if it’s true he’s using steroids, I’ll be mildly disappointed, and I know a couple of people who will be <i>very</i> disappointed. There’s something about Lance Armstrong that has inspired some people… his achievements have been (at face value) incredible. If he cheated, I can only say that it sucks that so many people were duped.

[unclviny]

Allright,
I just read through all of your supposed “cites” and NONE of your sources PROVES anything!, this is more chest thumping and some flimsy third party “evidence”. Once again if LA is doping PROVE IT!!!.

Unclviny

[casdave]

Personal rivalry, extremely bitter emnity has been traditional in proffessional cycling for generations.

In recent years it has been very mild indeed, perhaps too little spirit and too much capitulation in the might of recent multiple winners such as Indurain and Armstrong.

This kind of bitterness between Simeoni and Armstrong is not all that new, even if the reason behind it is.

You haven’t mentioned perhaps the real reason Armstrong is so ticked off with Simeone, which is that the latter has given testimony against Ferrarri, and Armstrong called him a liar, and for that Simeoni is suing Armstrong for defamation of charactor.

Whatever the claims and counter claims, Armstrong has no business getting involved, since Simeoni has not made any claim against him.
My guess is that Armstrong is angry that Simeoni’s testimony against Ferrari might tarnish his six victories, since Armstrong has worked closely with Ferrarri.

http://www.supercycling.co.za/default(a).asp?var=4410&id=119498&des=article&cl=&scat=supercycling/international&print=

I’d imagine sometime in the future, when Ferrarri comes to write his memoirs to fund the debt built up by his defence team, he might name names, and there will have to be something in there to get the publicity to increase sales.

[threemae]

@casdave

You haven’t mentioned perhaps the real reason Armstrong is so ticked off with Simeone, which is that the latter has given testimony against Ferrarri, and Armstrong called him a liar, and for that Simeoni is suing Armstrong for defamation of charactor.

Yes, Casdave is absolutely correct. I wanted to wrap up the post quickly (heh, that worked out well…), but this is an important aspect to the entire case. Simeoni has sued Armstrong becasue he called him a liar. I’m certainly no fan of litigousness, and Simeoni certainly doesn’t smell purely of roses, but ultimately Armstrong shot off his mouth about Simeoni’s testimony. Simeoni, again, didn’t say anything about Armstrong, just his own personal experiences, and I tend to believe him when Dr. Ferrari has publicly claimed that EPO is just dandy.

Also, Armstrong is no stranger to baseless libel suits himself; he sued David Walsh over LA Confidential, but the suit was dismissed by the court immediately, and Armstrong was fined 1 euro for “abuse of the courts” or some such thing.

unclviny, frankly, the OP should be enough to do just that. No, it isn’t proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but this isn’t a criminal court, and it is the truth. I suppose that you would need someone to deliver a hand-written and notarized note from Mr. Armstrong himself admitting to using dope and the lot-numbers of the drugs themselves to cross-reference with pharmacutical companies to constitute, “proof.” :wally

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

The OP failed to mention that Simeoni was asked to fuck off by the lead group of bikers and that Armstrong was roundly thanked by the rest of the bikers for what he did.

The OP also didn’t bother to point out that the Tour de France is a fucking race and that it’s pretty stupid to suggest than any contestant in the race has any obligation to let another person get in front of him. If Simeoni doesn’t want Lance to ride along side him, here’s a suggestion- fucking beat him.

Can you imagine any other sport in which an athlete would be pitted for not letting someone else beat him? Should NFL teams with big leads not be expected to tackle third string running backs in garbage time of the 4th quarter?

I know that on certain days of the TdF it’s a courtesy for the leaders to lay back and let some of the nobodies win a meaningless leg, but that doesn’t mean they have to.

Complaining about this is like complaining about a team running up the score in a football game. If you don’t want them to score, fucking stop them, don’t just bitch about it.

The OP also failed to support such a categorical allegation of a doping.

I say way to go, Lance. Way to show that little shit who’s in charge. Now go finish this thing out tomorrow in style. Then go fuck the shit out of Sheryl Crow.

[Dead_Badger]

@threemae

unclviny, frankly, the OP should be enough to do just that. No, it isn’t proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but this isn’t a criminal court, and it is the truth. I suppose that you would need someone to deliver a hand-written and notarized note from Mr. Armstrong himself admitting to using dope and the lot-numbers of the drugs themselves to cross-reference with pharmacutical companies to constitute, “proof.”

You must have some new meaning of the word “proof” that I’ve not come across. Here’s a hint though: it generally isn’t synonymous with “baseless accusation”. I have to say though, I do love the way you hold Armstrong’s denials against him. This one was particularly good:

What does Lance do? Deny it all, and bad-mouth Lemond:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/ne...les/6571.0.html

I’m disappointed and dismayed that for the past four years Greg has continued to question my performances and character."

That bastard! How dare he publicly question a man who’s accused him of cheating! Why, that lowdown, dirty … why I oughta…

Oh, and from your linked article:

The Irishman, co-author of the just-released “LA Confidential - The Secrets of Lance Armstrong,” suggests that “it is not relevant what I think. (Pierre Ballester and I) have done what journalists are supposed to do: we have asked questions. Many, many people have helped by providing answers. We then write a book and the reader gets the chance to make up his or her own mind. What matters is the evidence of those who worked and rode with Lance Armstrong. The people who have been in his world.”

Translation: “I’m treading on eggshells so as not to commit verifiable libel. My insinuations are enough to make me money in France, where they hate Lance enough to spit on him as he rides past. Please don’t ask any hard questions.”

[Lamar_Mundane]

Frankly, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Armstrong were doped. I think most all athletes in several sports (swimming, track, cycling) are using performance enhansing drugs.

Having said that, the OP is a mishmash of hearsay and accusations, and doesn’t prove a thing. It is sorely lacking in facts. It reminds me of a december post - a statement sprinkled with links to kinda-sorta related topics, but in the end unrelated to the post itself.

What I see is one person claiming to have evidence, and a bunch of people saying “everyone else does it, so he must, too.”

I think a much better circumstantial case can be made against someone like Marion Jones, who has also never failed a test and claims innocence. She was married to a guy who used (and who accuses her of using), her current partner uses, and her performance has fallen off the charts since she’s been under scrutiny.

I’ll bet Armstrong has been tested a bunch of times in the last few weeks. He’s either really good at cheating, or really good at cycling.

[Futile_Gesture]

I see the OP is from the “if I say it often enough and in lots of different ways it starts to become true” school of thought. “And if I do it even more than that, why, it becomes a iron-clad fact!”

I don’t see any facts or proof here.

[Mehitabel]

This article in the New Yorker is two years old, but nobody interested in Armstrong should miss it.

Lance Armstrong’s heart is almost a third larger than that of an average man. During those rare moments when he is at rest, it beats about thirty-two times a minute–slowly enough so that a doctor who knew nothing about him would call a hospital as soon as he heard it. (When Armstrong is exerting himself, his heart rate can edge up above two hundred beats a minute.) Physically, he was a prodigy.

Because Armstrong is the best cyclist in the world, there is an assumption among some of those who follow the sport that he, too, must use drugs. Armstrong has never failed a drug test, however, and he may well be the most frequently examined athlete in the history of sports. Whenever he wins a day’s stage, or finishes as one of the top cyclists in a longer race, he is required to provide a urine sample. Like other professionals, Armstrong is also tested randomly throughout the year. (The World Anti-Doping Agency, which regularly tests athletes, has even appeared at his home, in Austin, Texas, at dawn, to demand a urine sample.) Nobody questions Armstrong’s excellence. And yet doubts remain: is he really so gifted that, like Secretariat, he easily dominates even his most talented competitors?

…he can rely on his aerobic powers longer, and his anaerobic abilities are unusually high as well. When muscles begin to work beyond their aerobic ability, they produce lactic acid, which eventually accumulates and causes a burning sensation well known to anyone who has ever run too far or too fast. Somehow, though, Armstrong produces less lactic acid than others do, and metabolizes it more effectively. “For whatever physiological reason–and science can’t really explain it, because we don’t know that much about what is occurring–the effect is clear,” Carmichael said. “Lance goes on when others are done.”

And so on. Fascinating article.

[threemae]

@Diogenes

The OP failed to mention that Simeoni was asked to fuck off by the lead group of bikers and that Armstrong was roundly thanked by the rest of the bikers for what he did.

The rest of the riders asked Simeoni to leave becasue that break wouldn’t go anywhere with LA in it. When Simeoni first joined the break, no one objected. They wanted him out of there because LA was there and the break simply wouldn’t have survived. To mistake their wanting Simeoni to leave the break for moral or ethical reasons, I’m afraid that you’ve grossly misunderstood what cycling is. And maybe some of these other riders that thanked LA should speak up, cause he hasn’t been able to pinpoint any real names.

I know that on certain days of the TdF it’s a courtesy for the leaders to lay back and let some of the nobodies win a meaningless leg, but that doesn’t mean they have to.

Absolutely, if LA wants to chase threatless breaks on the last road stage of the Tour, more power to him. But he wasn’t playing by any concept of sportsmanship that I’m aware of. A more adept anaolgy would be one in which a NFL team decides that indeed, the opposing team is allowed to score points if they like, excpet for the one guy that we don’t like because he spoke out about all the 'roids we’re on. To mistake this as anything but a personal, vindictive act is a mistake.

Translation: “I’m treading on eggshells so as not to commit verifiable libel. My insinuations are enough to make me money in France, where they hate Lance enough to spit on him as he rides past. Please don’t ask any hard questions.”

How else are investigative journalists supposed to work except by asking people questions and publishing their answers. So he doesn’t take the risk of a libel suit? So what? He used real facts, real interviews, and published them.

Also, Lemond says that he resents Armstrong saying that he won the Tour via EPO, especially considering that EPO wasn’t even available to anyone when Lemond won, but all of the sudden after a year his formerly top ranked team could barely even hold the god-damned peleton.

I think a much better circumstantial case can be made against someone like Marion Jones, who has also never failed a test and claims innocence. She was married to a guy who used (and who accuses her of using), her current partner uses, and her performance has fallen off the charts since she’s been under scrutiny.

Lamar, I guess that I sort of see the same thing happening with Lance and Dr. Ferrari. And it is clear that somehow (I’ll be damned if I could figure it out), pro cyclists are indeed quite capable of evading these dope tests. That is the reason that I’ve included Manzano and Millar. I’m not claiming guilt by assosciation, I’m trying to pre-empt the arguement that, well, he never failed a drug-test, so he must be innocent.

Badger, Diogenes, etc., I guess what I would like to know is what exactly it would take to convince you that LA was a doper?

You have team staff claiming that he doped. You have coaches with ongoing relations publicly stating that they think EPO is just fine. We know that the UCI’s drug testing program has broadly failed in picking up doping. A good number of the retired cycling community has spoken out against doping, and quite clearly stated that they believe LA to be doped. Maybe you guys simply don’t understand the phenomenal increases in average speed that pro-cycling experienced in the early 90’s. Was it all those 100-gram lighter wheels? What exactly is it tht you expect to evidence itself here?

This evidence is not circumstantial and baseless, it’s exactly the type of evidence that one might expect to show up if he were doped.

This is like a december thread? Well, goddamn, with some of you its like a bunch of Bush apologists when it comes to prisoner abuse in Iraq.

Diogenes, you might like this:
Bush: Lance will win, “and I’m going to win.”
http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/news/articles/6585.0.html

[Dead_Badger]

@Lamar Mundane

I think a much better circumstantial case can be made against someone like Marion Jones, who has also never failed a test and claims innocence. She was married to a guy who used (and who accuses her of using), her current partner uses, and her performance has fallen off the charts since she’s been under scrutiny.

While I agree with your broader point, she has also had a baby in the last year, which has to be a bit of a crimp on ones Olympic ambitions. That said, she surely must be pretty dopey (pun intended) to associate with the sort of people she has. But again, if she’s innocent and didn’t know that her companions were cheating, she’s been betrayed in the most comprehensive manner. Not a fun story for anyone involved.

What I hate about the present doping scandals is that it means I have to suspect everyone involved in certain sports, people I’ve really enjoyed watching, and respect. Michael Johnson, for example. I’ve seen a lot of him, and he seems like a lovely guy; he was fun to watch, had a great style and is a great pundit now he’s retired. A guy I’d like to have a beer with, in short. Why have all these cheating shitheads made me have to wonder whether he was doped too? Fuck you, Linford. Fuck you, Dwayne. You fucking idiots. Not only have you condemned yourselves, you’ve condemned everyone you know by association. You utter, utter fucks.

On the flip side, I refuse to condemn someone on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. I’m going to believe Armstrong is innocent until I damn well see some better evidence than “everyone must be doing it because I’m not, and I’m slower”. If it comes, I won’t be surprised, but I think everyone deserves that consideration.

In the meantime, I guess I’ll just have to follow sports that aren’t drug-dependent. Cricket, then, and maybe curling. Oh well, at least England are having a sort of renaissance. I don’t think Flintoff’s on anything stronger than Abbot. And Key has made the team despite an obvious pie dependency. Anyway, this concludes this evening’s digression :).

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

How would doping even help Lance Armstrong. He doesn’t have remarkable greater strength or speed than the rest of the field, he just has exceptional cardio-vascular ability. he wins his races in the mountains because he has extraorinary stamina, not speed.

he wins because his heart is (literally) bigger. Steroids didn’t do that.

[threemae]

@Diogenes the Cynic

How would doping even help Lance Armstrong. He doesn’t have remarkable greater strength or speed than the rest of the field, he just has exceptional cardio-vascular ability. he wins his races in the mountains because he has extraorinary stamina, not speed.

he wins because his heart is (literally) bigger. Steroids didn’t do that.

They’re is also a lot more than just EPO to use in doping. In fact, I’ll agree with you on this point; not because Lance Armstrong could just naturally just kill everybody, but, because, like everyone has said, he trains like a bad-ass mo-fo. Also, with the use of altitude simulation, EPO has become virtually obsolete.

But, here’s just Manzano’s list: “naming several brands of human growth hormone - Humatrope, Norditropin, Genotonorm, as well as IGF1, which he describes as HGH mixed with insulin.” Plus stimulants, hormones, etc. There are probably thousands upon thousands of these compounds which could potentially be used; suffice to say, the list is probably extensive.

[threemae]

Also, I meant to say that he does have a lot of speed and strength. He won a field sprint in the Tour of Georgia, no small feat, and his explosiveness in attacking has long been considered a primary strength of his.

From just a numbers standpoint, there are riders with higher VO2 maxes, and more straight forward “endurance.”

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Seeing as there is no proof that LA uses drugs, any insinuation is pure speculation. I’m sure the French are beside themselves to prove LA uses, and I find it hilarious to imagine myself in the shoes of the French technologist charged with the task of uncovering the nanogram of illegal drug in LA’s urine that would disqualify him.

[andros]

So, according to you, threemae, he’s fast and strong as hell, uses altitude training, and trains like a bad-ass mofo.

Does that frost you so much you have to believe he cheats as well?

[Dead_Badger]

@threemae

Badger, Diogenes, etc., I guess what I would like to know is what exactly it would take to convince you that LA was a doper?

Oh, that’s easy. A positive test, or direct first person testimony to the authorities. Not self-serving “you decide” articles in shitty money-maker books published in the country that hates Lance the most, not inferences by fading stars who can’t hack the pace, and not, repeat not, repeated point-blank assertions by people who’ve never met the guy and have no basis for their accusations past the fact that he damn well wins. I want someone with access to the facts to put their money where their mouth is. It’s not too much to ask; after all, if he is indeed cheating the person who blows the whistle will have the sincere respect of the entire sports-watching public. Why have all these selfless souls limited themselves to snide insinuations in sensationalist books? It’s a mystery, to be sure. After all, it’s not like anyone in charge of the sport could be interested in what they have to say, right?

[threemae]

@Dead Badger

Oh, that’s easy. A positive test, or direct first person testimony to the authorities. Not self-serving “you decide” articles in shitty money-maker books published in the country that hates Lance the most, not inferences by fading stars who can’t hack the pace, and not, repeat not, repeated point-blank assertions by people who’ve never met the guy and have no basis for their accusations past the fact that he damn well wins. I want someone with access to the facts to put their money where their mouth is. It’s not too much to ask; after all, if he is indeed cheating the person who blows the whistle will have the sincere respect of the entire sports-watching public. Why have all these selfless souls limited themselves to snide insinuations in sensationalist books? It’s a mystery, to be sure. After all, it’s not like anyone in charge of the sport could be interested in what they have to say, right?

Okay, well at least you’re being somewhat reasonable in what you’d consider your “burden of proof,” although I’ll have to take issue with some of them.

First off, I know that LA has never failed a drug test, and I agree that it is an important indicator to the opposite of what I am arguing. It’s not worthless, but, you have to concede that it certainly is neggated a bit by the fact that just this spring, numerous pros have been revealed to be cheating without failing drug tests, including Manzano and Millar, but also many of Millar’s team mates. A total of seven former Cofidis riders (Cofidis was the team that dumped Lance when he got testicular cancer) have either been fired or left before they could be fired. Again, I’m not trying to make the arguement that, hey, they dope and aren’t as fast as LA, so therefore LA must be on super-duper-extra-special-dope, I’m just using them to make the point that the WADA’s and UCI’s drug testing protocol is obviously flawed and inneffective at catching dopers. I’m not trying to force you to prove a negative, I’m just saying that not failing drug tests doesn’t mean much.

Also, I don’t recall the exact circumstances of the Festina affair in 1998, but did anyone fail any drug tests in that? Wasn’t the whole thing blown open because a team car was searched at a check point?

Second, Simeoni’s testimony was to a French court under oath. Dr. Ferrari’s statements have been well reported and are public. There’s no real doubt that he said that he supported EPO. And Armstrong has never denied a link to Dr. Ferrari; Armstrong has not tried to keep his relationship secret by any means.

Yeah, it would be cool if LA Confidential were published in English; I hope that it eventually is, but then again, it’s hard enough to get OLN in this country and I’m not positive that the publisher can make a good business expense to bother publishing the material here.

Also, a soigner is not an insignificant position on a cycling team; and having Postal directeur sportif Johann Bruyneel refer to Emma O’Reilley as the heart and soul of the team is not insignificant. Also, her claims aren’t snide insinuations, she specifically states that she was instructed to dispose of medical waste including syringes and needles and empty medicine containers securely so that it could not be linked to Postal and also to obtain makeup to conceal injection site bruising.

Finally, I really must take issue with you refering to Greg Lemond as simply a fading star. His position in 1990 was akin to Lance’s in 2004 or even 2002. If next year all of the sudden T-Mobile rode so fast that Postal could hardly even avoid getting dropped, you wouldn’t see something fishy? Again, we’re talking HUGE speed increases; the pro-peleton now routinely averages well above 30-32 miles an hour on flat stages. I’ll go look up some of the speeds before when LeMond claims that doping became widespread in the peleton.

Nobody that I’ve posted here is making random speculations without having even met LA. If I wanted to start posting some rabidly anti-LA French sources, I am sure that I could find some, but I haven’t. Also, you might be underestimating Lance Armstrong’s popularity in France. From what I understand, he’s accusing Germans rather than French fans of doing the spitting.

[Typo_Negative]

Are there any quotes from people who say they have *witnessed * him doping? Or witnesses that have sold him the stuff?

And lastly, do use of these substances rate any penalties from the Tour? Or does the Tour have no stated policy against them?