Names of Nations and Peoples

[rippingtons_fan]

Has there ever been a movement whereby a Nation or a People would be called by others what they call themselves?
For example, the people of Egypt call their nation Misr, so everyone else would call their nation Misr.
I understand that there'd probably a lot of resistance to something like this, but it seems (to me anyway) like it would be a good first step for people from other lands and cultures to learn a little more about each other (with a minimum of effort.)

[Ephemera]

A recent thread about Cote d'Ivoire would seem to indicate it fits your question.

[UDS]

Can't see the point, really. All we would learn is that the people of Egypt call their land "Misr". So what? We could have guessed that they didn't call it "Egypt", and I don't see that our understanding is profoundly advanced by knowing what they do call it. And, in any event, we could know that without using the term itself. I mean, I am aware that Germans refer to their country as "Deutschland"; my awareness is not diminished by the fact that I call it "Germany".

Besides, what do you do with multiethnic countries? Some Belgians refer to their country as "Belgique", others as "Belgie". Which should we prefer?

On the whole it's not a great idea to introduce foreign words into English where a clear and unambiguous English word already exists; it's usually regarded as pretentious. I don't see any pressing need to make an exception for the names of countries.

[Johanna]

In the 1930s, Persia's government announced that the country's name was now Iran, and they expected the rest of the world to follow suit. The name change stuck internationally. AFAIK, Iran is called Iran in every single language in the world.

Also in the 1930s, the government of Siam announced that the country was being renamed Thailand (in English at least), and they expected the rest of the world to follow suit. The name change stuck.

A few years ago, Ivory Coast tried to get everyone to use the French form of the name, Côte d'Ivoire. They have had mixed success so far. The U.S. State Department, for one, has officially accepted the name change, but I still hear ordinary people saying "Ivory Coast." In Arabic they call it by the Arabic translation of the name: al-Sâhil al-‘Âjî. I don't know about Chinese or Hindi... although in general Hindi tends to imitate English. I'd be curious to know if the Hindi press still uses the English name "Ivory Coast" transliterated into Devanagari. You don't see much French transliterated in Hindi, that's for sure. Hindi has a strong preference for borrowing from English. Did Abidjan insist on the Russians, Uzbeks, etc. switching to Côte d'Ivoire? Or was that only for English?

I don't know if any of you have noticed, but the Turkish government has for several years been insisting that the only proper form of the country's name in English is the Turkish spelling: Türkiye. That includes the two dots over the u. Everyone outside Turkey has simply ignored this.

[HeyHomie]

So why is it that we respect Ivory Coast - Cote d'Ivoire, Siam - Thailand and Burma - Myanmar, but not Turkey - Türkiye?

I have a suggestion, and the SDMB, with its cosmopolitan population, is just the place for it. I say we petition the federal government to insist that every nation on earth, in every language, say "The United States of America" for our nation.

No "Etats Unites" for the Francophones.

No "Estados Unidos" for the Span~~ er, however you spell it.

No "Amerika" for the Japanese.

Nope. Say it right or don't say it at all. Say it with me, everybody. "United States of America. United States of America. United States of America."

_{In case anyone doesn't get it, I'm kidding.}

[ruadh]

Originally Posted by HeyHomie

So why is it that we respect ... Burma - Myanmar

Er, a lot of us don't.

[DelawareEng]

We're sorry Turkey, but we are going to pass on the idea to change every english keyboard in existance so we can put two little dots above your U. Your name will hereby stay synonimous with a big ugly stupid American bird!

[brix11]

Originally Posted by DelawareEng

We're sorry Turkey, but we are going to pass on the idea to change every english keyboard in existance so we can put two little dots above your U. Your name will hereby stay synonimous with a big ugly stupid American bird!

Hate to burst your bubble, but there's no need to change the keyboard. Just hit option-u, then u again. Like this—ü. Instant umlaut.

[Gest]

Burma was named as such by the British for the dominant ethnic group however this doesn't recognise other groups like the Shan, Karens or Kachins among others. It's like renaming the US California (or Texas perhaps) and the revert back to Myanma(r) merely reflects the short form of the Burmese word for the entire country rather than the group itself. Similarly, Rangoon became Yangon and the Irrawaddy became the Ayeyarwady again.

The problem is that Aung San Suu Kyi and the opposition (which should be in government) oppose it as they oppose everything done by the regime. Because of her popularity and the brutality of the regime, there is a reticence in the West to accept the name change against her say. Although the US and UK don't accept the junta's legitimacy, is it reason to not accept the legitimacy of its reason for doing it?

[HeyHomie]

Originally Posted by Gest

Burma was named as such by the British for the dominant ethnic group however this doesn't recognise other groups like the Shan, Karens or Kachins among others. It's like renaming the US California (or Texas perhaps) and the revert back to Myanma(r) merely reflects the short form of the Burmese word for the entire country rather than the group itself. Similarly, Rangoon became Yangon and the Irrawaddy became the Ayeyarwady again.

The problem is that Aung San Suu Kyi and the opposition (which should be in government) oppose it as they oppose everything done by the regime. Because of her popularity and the brutality of the regime, there is a reticence in the West to accept the name change against her say. Although the US and UK don't accept the junta's legitimacy, is it reason to not accept the legitimacy of its reason for doing it?

If your post is directed at me, then let me state for the record that I, personally, could care less what the Burmese/Myanmarese want to call themselves. They could insist that we call their nation "Walt Disney World," for all I care.

I just don't get why Spain isn't insisting everyone call it España, why Germany isn't insisting on Deutschland, etc. If two or three nations are going to demand that everyone call their country such-n-such, then why not all of them?

[Gest]

It needn't have been directed at anything other than the subject of the thread. But since you mentioned that you 'respect' the name change and ruadh dissented, I thought I'd add my own view and understanding of the issue. Of course, even if it wasn't directed at you, you're still free to state whatever you like for records or what have you.

[Mops]

Originally Posted by Jomo Mojo

...
I don't know if any of you have noticed, but the Turkish government has for several years been insisting that the only proper form of the country's name in English is the Turkish spelling: Türkiye. That includes the two dots over the u. Everyone outside Turkey has simply ignored this.
..

It's curious, then, that Turkey uses Yunanistan for Ellas

[Hyperelastic]

Originally Posted by Jomo Mojo

I don't know if any of you have noticed, but the Turkish government has for several years been insisting that the only proper form of the country's name in English is the Turkish spelling: Türkiye. That includes the two dots over the u. Everyone outside Turkey has simply ignored this.

San Jose, California has recently taken to putting an accent over the "e", even though diacritical marks are explicitly disallowed by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names. It is apparently in recognition of the fact that the city government now takes orders from Mexico City instead of Washington.

[ruadh]

Gest, accepting the change of name would be tacitly accepting the right of the regime to change the name. This is something I refuse to do.

[spectrum]

Originally Posted by brix11

Hate to burst your bubble, but there's no need to change the keyboard. Just hit option-u, then u again. Like this—ü. Instant umlaut.

Only on a Mac. On Windows, it's harder.

[brix11]

Originally Posted by spectrum

Only on a Mac. On Windows, it's harder.

Oops...my bad. Sorry Windows users!

[Ephemera]

Originally Posted by Hyperelastic

San Jose, California has recently taken to putting an accent over the "e", even though diacritical marks are explicitly disallowed by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names. It is apparently in recognition of the fact that the city government now takes orders from Mexico City instead of Washington.

Takes orders from Mexico City? What? Am I missing some joke?

[Cervaise]

Originally Posted by Jomo Mojo

I don't know if any of you have noticed, but the Turkish government has for several years been insisting that the only proper form of the country's name in English is the Turkish spelling: Türkiye.

Interesting, because the official tourist guide distributed by the Turkish consulate at the recent Seattle International Film Festival uses the Western spelling. I guess they're willing to insist only up to just shy of the point of shooting themselves in the economic foot. ("'Turkaya'? Where the hell is that?")

[Bookkeeper]

ü = Alt 0252 for WindowWatchers

[LavenderBlue]

The Ukranians did get the rest of the world to call their country simply Ukraine instead of The Ukraine.

[SnakeSpirit]

Originally Posted by brix11

Hate to burst your bubble, but there's no need to change the keyboard. Just hit option-u, then u again. Like this—ü. Instant umlaut.

option-u? Where's that option key? I don't seem to have one on any of my PC keyboards.... I struggle through the alt-130, alt-131 etc, until I hit the right one, or go consult my notebook text file ascii list.

[SnakeSpirit]

Originally Posted by Hyperelastic

San Jose, California has recently taken to putting an accent over the "e", even though diacritical marks are explicitly disallowed by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names.

Oops, we're in violation, too. maybe we'll get kicked out!

We use the `ukina (`) to represent a glottal stop (like the pause in "Uh oh") for Hawaiian place names, like:

Hawai`i
Kahalu`u
Kane`ohe
Kapa`a

I don't think other states or the feds recognize it, though.

[rippingtons_fan]

I guess one thing I hate seeing is linguistic imperialism, whereby in this case, the English language is used to try to direct the destiny of every other language in the world.

So, if the English-speaking powers-that-be say that, unless a nation is called by it's English name, well...it just won't be put on the map until the people who live there "come to their senses"!!
Hey, while we're at it we can bring back the name of Rhodesia!! As long as English-speakers can pronounce it, then it's all right! (Whats this Zimbabwe stuff anyway??!!) And let's not forget French Indochina!!! (Then we'd be using the English translation of the French designation of their former colonial possessions!)
And Finland -- the English-speakers can't seem to pronounce the name Suomi, so you are henceforth and forever called Finland (no matter how that makes you feel!!) And the Malvinas? In English it's the Falkland Islands!
And don't forget the "Eye-talians" and "Eye-rack" and "Eye-ran"!!!!!

It's been said that if you shout LOUD enough in English at someone who can't speak the language, then they'll eventually understand it!!

Learning a little about other nations and peoples (even if it's just the name of their country in their language) shouldn't prove such an insurmountable obstacle!! Can you remember the name of one thing? How about two or even three things?
Four things? Hey, you're ready for MENSA!!

There's nothing wrong with making an effort to take a step in trying to know another-- even if it means having to learn a word of their language.

[Johanna]

The names Burma and Myanmar are two variants of the same ethnic name. The strange thing is, neither name has an r in the original Burmese. The forms of these names in the Burmese language are Bama and Myanma. Now you can see why they changed it: they wanted to avoid confusion with (Ala)bama.

The name of Rangoon wasn't changed in Burmese, only the spelling in English. Its name in Burmese script is still spelled the same as it always was. The reason for the difference is a sound shift over time in Burmese phonetics. The letter that historically corresponds to r is now pronounced y. If that sounds odd to you, consider how many English speakers pronounce February as Febyuary.

[Meeko]

Ok, so Siam changed it's name. Next your gonna tell me 'Owah' and "Taygu' have followed suit.

[Polycarp]

Originally Posted by rippingtons_fan

Hey, while we're at it we can bring back the name of Rhodesia!! As long as English-speakers can pronounce it, then it's all right! (Whats this Zimbabwe stuff anyway??!!)

Well, if you're going to get picky, Zimbabwe is the former Southern Rhodesia; it's only fair to require Zambia to change back to Northern Rhodesia. After all, if Korea can put up with it, the Rhodesians can too!

And Finland -- the English-speakers can't seem to pronounce the name Suomi, so you are henceforth and forever called Finland (no matter how that makes you feel!!)

Hey, even their national music is called "Finlandia"! The main reason English speakers won't buy into Suomi is their stubborn refusal to adopt as their national anthem George M. Cohan's song about them: "Suomi! How I love ya, how I love ya, my dear old Suomi!"

[Askance]

Originally Posted by HeyHomie

I just don't get why Spain isn't insisting everyone call it España, why Germany isn't insisting on Deutschland, etc. If two or three nations are going to demand that everyone call their country such-n-such, then why not all of them?

Because they don't care so much. Are you under the impression all non-US countries feel the same about every issue?

[Johanna]

About the same time that newly independent Ukraine dropped the "the" from its name, the Sudan dropped the "the" (band name!) too, becoming just Sudan. It kind of makes sense for Ukraine, since the Ukrainian language lacks a definite article. However, the Arabic name of Sudan does use the definite article: al-Sûdân. So why they would drop it in English while keeping it in Arabic makes no sense.

A name change that probably went under most people's radar: In 1992 or so, newly independent Kazakhstan dropped the h from its name and became Kazakstan. Then, but I'm not entirely sure about this, they seem to have changed their minds a few years later and became Kazakhstan again. I admit I can't tell any more what the country's name is really supposed to be. Neither spelling exists in the original Kazakh language: the Kazakh name for the country uses neither k nor kh. It uses q: Qazaqstan. The people's name for themselves is Qazaq, which is neat because you can type it using only the leftmost keys on the keyboard, going down and back up again. The letter Q in the modified Cyrillic alphabet used to write Kazakh is adapted from K with an extra stroke added. The Russians have not bothered to use the modified letter and just make it plain K. The rest of the world followed Russian usage when Central Asia was cut off from the rest of the world by the Iron Curtain and everything Central Asian was filtered through Russian. Thirteen years after independence, they still have not shaken off their Russian hangover.

Another example is Uzbekistan. The Uzbek language is now officially converted to the Roman alphabet, and they are gradually weaning themselves off Cyrillic. The Uzbeks call themselves O'zbek, because the initial sound is actually pronounced o, not u. The country's name is O'zbekiston. But we call it Uzbek, just because they used to write their O' sound with a modified Cyrillic U, and the Russians of course changed it to a plain U.

[Polycarp]

Well, just southeast of the Qazaqs is the autonomous part of O'zbekistan called Qaraqalpaqistan -- probably the most Q's in any legitimate English word!