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  #1  
Old 08-25-2004, 10:11 AM
badmana badmana is offline
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Fuck stupid-ass security measures!!!

I don't go to work expecting to be 100% safe. I don't get in my car and expect to be 100% safe. I don't fucking take an airplane and expect to be 100% safe. Like all shit in life, I understand there are some inherent danger involved just being alive.

So last week some stalker gets inside my work place and flashes and gun. He left, the police caught him. The end.

Now, my work place is trying to be fucking fort knox. What the fuck, half the doors are disabled. "Security" guards are stationed at every entrance and even when I beep in the doors, they want me to beep in again using a card reader and check over my ID. What's even more fucking silly is that there are plenty of ways to get around without having to jump through fucking hoops.

I am fucking sick of all this security bull shit!

I CAN'T EVEN GET MY MORNING COFFEE without getting stopped by "security" and told to go to the "front" and beep in. What the fuck is wrong with this world? I am not a fucking coffee drinking terrorist! My normal 3 minute coffee run takes twice as long. My normal walk from the parking lot takes twice as long. If I (gods forbid) forget my card, it takes 25 fucking minutes to "clear" me.

Today I ignored the fucking wanna-be-security guard and got my coffee without stopping. The fucking guard just let me go! WTF? If you're going to fucking screw with people, at least be consistant!

Fuck you safety pussies. Fuck the laws that let people sue over this shit. I'm sure our building security isn't fucking worried about us workers. No, their worried about being sued. Fuck, it's not like we're a bank. We have no money, nothing worth stealing.

Gods damnit. I hope someone else gets in and causes trouble. Just to make management realize these sorts of security measures don't work. All they do is piss off the people they're "protecting". I hope our governments (Canadian and American) fucking realize this as well. All the stories I read about 90 year old people getting harshly searched just pisses me off.
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  #2  
Old 08-25-2004, 10:35 AM
Casey1505 Casey1505 is offline
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So this extra security which probably makes a larger percentage of the building feel safer and inconveniences you by 3 minutes is bad how, again?
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  #3  
Old 08-25-2004, 10:58 AM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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Because if it only makes people feel safer without causing them to be safer, it isn't worth much. If you re-read the OP, you'll see that the poster ignored the security guard at one point and nothing happened.
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  #4  
Old 08-25-2004, 10:59 AM
badmana badmana is offline
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But that's just it. "Feels" safer is right. We're not any safer. A mad man with a gun would blow through our "security" without breaking a sweat. Our doors are glass and wouldn't take much to get through them. In fact, our security has so many damn holes I just see it as a waste of time (this building wasn't designed with security in mind).

We're as secured as we're going to be. All this extra effort is just a fucking pain in the ass. The only plus is that I'm getting plenty of excersize taking several stairs getting around security (saves me time and works on my legs!).

I assume this is the same shit Americans have to go through at an airport. I just hope this hysteria doesn't spread too much up here (airport security here isn't very special and wasn't any better than pre-9/11).
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  #5  
Old 08-25-2004, 11:14 AM
Casey1505 Casey1505 is offline
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I understand what you're saying. I work in an office building with several dumb security measures in place. Can only enter and exit through one door, despite the fact that there are at least 6 or 7 doors around the perimeter. Must show a badge to get past the guard station, although they never take the time to actually look at the badge. I could wave someone else's badge or even a video rental card at them, and they'd never know. We do have to swipe our badges to enter the department, but this was the case since well before 9/11. If we forget our badge, a department head is supposed to come down and vouch for us, but that sometimes relaxes to a phone call "Yeah, he's OK, let him up" without ever verifying my identity.

Having said that, the sense of security around here is pretty good. Sure we have a few wackos who think that every delivery truck that drops off supplies, food, payroll, whatever, is loaded to the roof with explosives, or that any plane that flies in a little low (we're about 5 miles from the local airport, and our department overlooks the runways. Low airplanes are a fairly routine sight) is going to take a sudden turn into the building. I'd imagine every workplace has people like that.

Yeah, we're as secure as we're gonna get, but doing something that increases the sense of security isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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  #6  
Old 08-25-2004, 11:15 AM
Exgineer Exgineer is offline
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Ah yes, the appearance of security, rather than the real thing. We have that annoying crap here to.

Just to cheer you up a bit, I think I'll share a truly laughable "security" measure. Post 9/11 the management company that maintains the building where my girlfriend works decided to beef up their "security." They decided their biggest problem was that people were using the back door on Broadway for possibly nefarious reasons (like cutting a block and a half off of the walk to the parking lot), and they wanted everyone to use the front door on State Street. So they put up a sign on the Broadway entrance, "Please Use State Street Entrance." They didn't bother to lock the door or anything. I think they were saving that little drastic measure for a future upgrade. It was airtight, I tells ya.

I say "was" because they've since taken the sign down.
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  #7  
Old 08-25-2004, 11:25 AM
Eliahna Eliahna is online now
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Yeah, we're as secure as we're gonna get, but doing something that increases the sense of security isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Unless it makes people complacent by lulling them into a false sense of security... If security is both highly visible and ineffective, chances are people are not going to question something slightly odd that they've seen because they assume the security guys have everything under control.
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  #8  
Old 08-25-2004, 11:44 AM
Danalan Danalan is offline
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My favorite stupid-ass security measure:

No metal butter knives inside the secure zone at airports, including on airplanes. So, you go to a restaurant in the airport between flights, or ride first class with a meal, and you get...

A plastic knife.

So, you ask, what's the problem?

The plastic knives are sharper than the metal butter knives. Plus, you can quite easily sharpen the plastic knife into a serious weapon using a brick wall. The metal knife won't cut through a pizza, much less a person, and it would take hours of work to sharpen it to a useful weapon.

The metal knife is less of a weapon than the replacement plastic knife. This has been pointed out to the TSA, and the Homeland Security Department, but their policy remains unchanged.

Most security measures are all for show.

The locks on your car? Just to keep the the average guy, (and the inept) honest. Those locks clearly don't stop real, determined theives. Same for the locks on your house -- they'll keep wandering idiots out, but even you can break in pretty easily, can't you?

As long as there is wealth inequity, racial bigotry, or religious strife (to name but a few causes) there will be people struggling against other people. And always, more will lose than will win. Before someone points out that this is the Pit, not IMHO, realize that this struggle is the true obscenity of our time.
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2004, 12:47 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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I somewhat sympathize with the OP, and rest assured, my building has a hell of a lot more security than yours, and there certainly are holes that could be exploited, no doubt.

However, I am fed up with all this attitude of "this security is worthless because I can see that it's not perfect" crap. Well, no shit. Nobody wants to work in a maximum security prison. The point of guards and badges and checkpoints and cameras and stuff is 99 percent of the time not to make a building inpenetrable, but simply to make it harder to penetrate. It's the difference between being a soft target and a harder target; that doesn't mean that security is 'just for show.'

And if I hear one more time silly allegations like "plastic knives are actually really dangerous," or "even *I* could kill someone with a ball-point pen, which *they* let through airport security!!!" I will challenge that person to a fight. You bring your plastic knife or ballpoint pen and try to hurt me. I will laugh my ass of as I kick yours around the block.
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2004, 12:54 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is offline
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Originally Posted by Danalan
Same for the locks on your house -- they'll keep wandering idiots out, but even you can break in pretty easily, can't you?
Yep. I stopped obsessing about locking, or even closing, my back door after I realized the plate glass window wasn't much of a deterrent...
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  #11  
Old 08-25-2004, 01:08 PM
The Devil's Grandmother The Devil's Grandmother is offline
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I understand what you mean, but in my dull house in my dull neighborhood I have to worry far more about bored teenagers than professional thieves. Locking my car and house does what I want it to. I have enough security without having to feel like I'm living in a prison.
A reasonable amount of security in exchange for a reasonable hassle seems to be what the OP is asking the universe for. His company has increased his hassle without increasing the amount of security hes actually getting. That does not seem reasonable to me, other than it's providing desperatly-needed jobs in our still sucky economy.
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  #12  
Old 08-25-2004, 01:52 PM
Merijeek Merijeek is offline
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Anyone else remembering the episode of News Radio with the security guards?

Wahahahahaha!

-Joe, misses Phil
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  #13  
Old 08-25-2004, 01:53 PM
badmana badmana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman
I somewhat sympathize with the OP, and rest assured, my building has a hell of a lot more security than yours, and there certainly are holes that could be exploited, no doubt.

However, I am fed up with all this attitude of "this security is worthless because I can see that it's not perfect" crap. Well, no shit. Nobody wants to work in a maximum security prison. The point of guards and badges and checkpoints and cameras and stuff is 99 percent of the time not to make a building inpenetrable, but simply to make it harder to penetrate. It's the difference between being a soft target and a harder target; that doesn't mean that security is 'just for show.'

And if I hear one more time silly allegations like "plastic knives are actually really dangerous," or "even *I* could kill someone with a ball-point pen, which *they* let through airport security!!!" I will challenge that person to a fight. You bring your plastic knife or ballpoint pen and try to hurt me. I will laugh my ass of as I kick yours around the block.
The deterrant in this case is that we have nothing to steal and nothing of any importance except maybe some hot women in Customer Service. We don't even have an onsite store! We do have a cash counter but that's secured via security plastic (like a bank teller).

It's not so much that I don't like security. I don't want to see bums walking around my work place (homeless bums, not the bums I normally see ) but getting harrassed at 3 "check points" is just busy-work and no use to anyone. I don't even need to show my card, only that it works!

I hope I never get "carded" going to the washroom.

What's truely sad is that because they have stationed guards at 6 entrances (other than the main) there are LESS revolving patrols. If I wanted to let my buddies in from the back, it's much easier!


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Devil's Grandmother
A reasonable amount of security in exchange for a reasonable hassle seems to be what the OP is asking the universe for.
Exactly.
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  #14  
Old 08-25-2004, 02:11 PM
The Asbestos Mango The Asbestos Mango is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman
And if I hear one more time silly allegations like "plastic knives are actually really dangerous," or "even *I* could kill someone with a ball-point pen, which *they* let through airport security!!!" I will challenge that person to a fight. You bring your plastic knife or ballpoint pen and try to hurt me. I will laugh my ass of as I kick yours around the block.
I don't think Danalan's point was that plastic knives are really dangerous. The point is that the plastic knives are actually more dangerous than your average metal butterknife. Which, I can tell you from experience, is true. I've gotten more than one unpleasant cut from a plastic knife, never from a metal butter knife. And the plastic knife could be fairly easily transformed into something truly dangerous. It's fairly easy to put an edge on a plastic cutting tool, and some plasticware is actually quite sturdy so it wouldn't easily break before it could be put to nefarious purposes.

It isn't so much "a plastic knife is a dangerous weapon" as it is "a plastic knife is something you could easily make a dangerous weapon out of."
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  #15  
Old 08-25-2004, 02:56 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Asbestos Mango
I don't think Danalan's point was that plastic knives are really dangerous. The point is that the plastic knives are actually more dangerous than your average metal butterknife. Which, I can tell you from experience, is true..... It's fairly easy to put an edge on a plastic cutting tool, and some plasticware is actually quite sturdy so it wouldn't easily break before it could be put to nefarious purposes.
So we both acknowledge that is it possible to rub one object against something and create something sharper.

I don't want to give any terrorist secrets away, but if one could sharpen a plastic knife in such a way, might there be some kind of technology or techniques that could be used to, say, covertly sharpen a butter knife? Or do you contend that butter knives have some kind of anti-sharpening properties that insure that they cannot ever be used as weapons?

We know that plastic knives are generally smaller, and always more bendy, than stainless steel knives. Right? So the corellary would be that stainless steel knives are generally bigger and stronger, and moreover, even more capable of holding a sharp edge. So explain to me again why "plastic knives are actually more dangerous than your average metal butterknife," as you put it?
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  #16  
Old 08-25-2004, 03:11 PM
The Asbestos Mango The Asbestos Mango is offline
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OK, first off, plastic knives are more dangerous than metal butter knives because metal butter knives have blunt edges and plastic knives have those little sharp teeth. Handle it the wrong way, and you can end up with a nasty cut on your finger or hand, which is not true of a metal knife butter knife. You really have to put some effort into hurting someone with it.

As to the sharpening issue. Sure, technology exists for sharpening metal knives. But, say you wanted to improvise a weapon on the spot in a short period of time, say a few minutes. Even with a good knife sharpener or whetstone, it's going to take you a good, long while to put a good edge on a metal butter knife. A plastic knive, a few minutes of rubbing on pavement or a stone/brick/concrete wall, pillar or doorjamb would make it lethal. And yes, plastic is bendy. Easily compensated for by holding more of the handle in your hand than you would with a sturdier knife, and bracing the flat edge of the blade with your finger.
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  #17  
Old 08-25-2004, 03:38 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Nobody in their right mind is saying that a plain ol' standard issue butterknife is dangerous. Butterknives can be made very dangerous because they can be sharpened to easily slice through flesh. I'm sure today's busy terrorist could spare a minute or two to sharpen a steel knife if he really wanted to; it's not that difficult. I Thus, it makes a certain amount of sense to ban them from airplanes.

(Further, I question whether you've used a whetstone recently. I'm no expert, but the few times I have done it, it only took a minute or two -- maybe three, tops -- to put an edge on a dull, unfinished knife.)

Plastic knives without sharpening can cause superficial cuts, but it'd take a ninja to be truly deadly with them. I don't think that airport authorities are worried about cuts on one's fingers. Thus, it is a better choice of utensil for airplanes.

I'm still waiting for an explaination of why a sharpened metal knife is less dangerous than a sharpened plastic knife.
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  #18  
Old 08-25-2004, 03:55 PM
Danalan Danalan is offline
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It's not that the sharpened plastic knife is less or more dangerous. It's that replacing a dull metal knife with a sharp plastic knife is a stupid-ass security measure.

Does anybody really think that hijacking airplanes with knives is possible anymore? I don't care if the hijackers are armed with fucking machete's -- the passengers ain't going down without a fight.
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  #19  
Old 08-25-2004, 04:14 PM
Starving Artist Starving Artist is offline
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Originally Posted by badmana
But that's just it. "Feels" safer is right. We're not any safer. A mad man with a gun would blow through our "security" without breaking a sweat. Our doors are glass and wouldn't take much to get through them. In fact, our security has so many damn holes I just see it as a waste of time (this building wasn't designed with security in mind).
Like you said previously, these precautions aren't really to keep you safer; they are to guard against lawsuits. Effective or not, they allow your company to demonstrate that after a dangerous incident they took measures to increase security, thereby making it much more difficult for someone to claim negligence in a lawsuit.
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  #20  
Old 08-25-2004, 04:18 PM
Cheesesteak Cheesesteak is offline
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A butter knife is made of steel which won't bend or break easily when you stab something with it. Yes, the plastic knife has a sharper edge that can cut pizza, but you're not carving a turkey or slicing a tomato here, you're trying to hurt someone. If you want to do damage, steel beats plastic any day of the week.

Most security is designed to keep out only the more ambivalent criminals anyway, like the wandering loser with a gun that was in badmana's office. He get's questioned at a doorway, maybe he decides to go away. If nobody questions him or puts up even the smallest hurdle, why would he turn around?

Having security might not prevent all crime, but it at least takes away the welcome mat.
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  #21  
Old 08-25-2004, 06:49 PM
aruvqan aruvqan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak
A butter knife is made of steel which won't bend or break easily when you stab something with it. Yes, the plastic knife has a sharper edge that can cut pizza, but you're not carving a turkey or slicing a tomato here, you're trying to hurt someone. If you want to do damage, steel beats plastic any day of the week.

.
If I was going for maximum disturbance and terror, a good slash wound can put out WAY more blood than a deep narrow stab unless you hit a major vessel. I knoe more people would freak out at seeing a waterfall of blood pouring out of a relatively innocuous slash across a face or neck than a seeping stab. I have gotten totally harmless cuts on my forehead that made my bathroom look like an abbatoir. Seems to me that ripping the throat or face of a flight attendant and 'tossing' her into the crowd would be way more effective at cowing the mass of sheeple on a plane, making them take time and personnel to care for her, and saving the other one to threaten someone else with.
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  #22  
Old 08-25-2004, 07:27 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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This just in... We've just gone to plaid alert. Yup, we're going plaid. Now feel free to be afraid. We won't tell you what to do about it, or free up any funds to do anything useful, but be scared anyway. It's all about the "appearance" of doing something, without actually doing anything useful. Keep the locals riled up and make them jump through hoops, so they THINK something is being done.
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  #23  
Old 08-25-2004, 08:45 PM
badmana badmana is offline
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Well, since you bastards have semi-hi jacked my thread I'm going to jump in

What about CDs? As I understand it, regular CDs are still ok on a flight. A CD is pretty strong plastic and I'm sure can take a good edge. It even comes with a handy finger hole.

Hell, I'm sure today's prepared terrorist could fastion a metal CD with a nice fancy label. I mean, we are talking about serious terrorists with some fairly decent funding.

Stuff like this doesn't protect anyone. It used to be that when a terrorist takes an airplane, you let him do whatever. These days that's not going to happen. If I'm on an aircraft I'm not going to sit on my hands.

The reason why shit like this was allowed to happen is because the FAA's own "rule book" was fucking wrong. I'm all for keeping guns and bombs off an aircraft but stupid nail files don't protect anyone.

And that's pretty much why the world is so fucked. Too many people are sheep. If I'm at work and someone starts going off, I'm going to help take them down.

I'm just hoping things return to normal at my work place. The security guard (the same one from the morning) asked to see my ID when I went out on break. My manager (who was smoking next to the door and who I spoke to) burst out laughing. What a joke.
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  #24  
Old 08-25-2004, 11:31 PM
jsleek jsleek is offline
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to pick an example:

remember when some hero killed a bunch of people in a McDonald's? The lawyers lined up to sue because McDonald's didn't provide enough security. (As if MickyD should surround the place with armed guards.)

Management knows security is a fraud, but it will protect management from lawsuits.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2004, 12:56 AM
Declan Declan is online now
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Originally Posted by badmana
Now, my work place is trying to be fucking fort knox. What the fuck, half the doors are disabled. "Security" guards are stationed at every entrance and even when I beep in the doors, they want me to beep in again using a card reader and check over my ID. What's even more fucking silly is that there are plenty of ways to get around without having to jump through fucking hoops.
I hate to ask , but where do you work ? if you dont mind mentioning it.

I can understand if you choose not too.

The reason I am asking is if your company has also taken into concideration the litton truck bombing back in the eighties , in Malton.

Sounds like some bright soul in your company put together an action plan to keep the rest of the sheep feeling somewhat safe.

Declan
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  #26  
Old 08-26-2004, 09:42 AM
badmana badmana is offline
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Originally Posted by Declan
I hate to ask , but where do you work ? if you dont mind mentioning it.

I can understand if you choose not too.

The reason I am asking is if your company has also taken into concideration the litton truck bombing back in the eighties , in Malton.

Sounds like some bright soul in your company put together an action plan to keep the rest of the sheep feeling somewhat safe.

Declan

I work at Bell Mobility in Mississauga. If you're going to attack my building please inform me so that I can take a vacation day. Thanks

There was a truck bombing in the eighties around here? Do you have any online article about that?

We're not stopping any trucks or anything here at work. Even though we're very vunerable to that sort of thing (we're all glass with 3 buildings facing a centre court yard). We'd be screwed if something like that happened here.

I'm starting to feel bad about how I'm treating the security guards. I'm pretty pissed about being forced to "check in" that I've started pointedly ignoring them and treating them like furniture. I know it's not their fault (they probably make less than the people they're "guarding") but it's hard to be nice while being treated like a fucking terrorist.

I'm just going to ignore them now. This morning I wasn't paying attention and entered through the front (where I have to "check in) instead of walking in from the side (there I don't have to check in, how silly is that?). I even saw the same women guard that I ignored yesterday and she wanted me to sign in. Gods damnit when will it end?!
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  #27  
Old 08-26-2004, 10:34 AM
Chairman Pow Chairman Pow is offline
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Originally Posted by The Asbestos Mango
It isn't so much "a plastic knife is a dangerous weapon" as it is "a plastic knife is something you could easily make a dangerous weapon out of."
And it's not even that so much as, "if we remove what would be the obvious, but on second thought really isn't," then people will feel safer. Goes back to the perception of safety vs. not.

Ravenman is one of the few sensible people I've heard on this topic. No, your car lock won't stop someone from breaking into your car by smashing a window, but it will give someone pause (or at least ensure that you're attacked only by a more competent/desperate class of criminal). Does that mean you should lock your door? Yes. I know people who have open-top Jeeps that lock the doors because it keeps the criminals out! When they don't lock the doors, their stuff gets stolen!

Re: plate glass doors. In the High Middle Ages when people started getting locks on their doors, thieves just started going in through the walls. Does that mean that since a criminal could shoot out the hinges of your door with a shotgun or drive a bulldozer through the door, you're not safe?

You see we're quickly getting into the excluded middle/slippery slope here. Read the book DESIGN OF EVERYDAY THINGS wherein there's an interesting discussion of how what something is constructed of will affect what people think they can do with it, specifically why people would spraypaint/smash plexiglass phone booths, but leave the plywood that was used to replace it alone.

Back to butterknives though, if you want to take someone up on the offer of plastic knife vs. no weapon, I'll do it (of course, we'll use training knives instead). No one is going to use the sharpened KFC knife as a weapon unless they've got some skills to begin with. Having a weapon gives several advantages to the "knifer," mostly psychological, including 1) they have a weapon and you don't 2) they managed to sneak through security and now you're alone 3) if they immediately knife someone, as the hijakers on 9/11 did, it's a show of force and will demoralize the people in the audience. The issue, clearly is not that the knife itself is strong.
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  #28  
Old 08-26-2004, 11:39 AM
Declan Declan is online now
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Originally Posted by badmana
I work at Bell Mobility in Mississauga. If you're going to attack my building please inform me so that I can take a vacation day. Thanks

There was a truck bombing in the eighties around here? Do you have any online article about that?

We're not stopping any trucks or anything here at work. Even though we're very vunerable to that sort of thing (we're all glass with 3 buildings facing a centre court yard). We'd be screwed if something like that happened here.!

Litton Bombing

Scroll down a few seconds and the gist of the litton bombing incident comes up .

But a short review , is that some "activists" decided to take direct action , hence their name and place a truck bomb in the litton facility on the east side of hwy 27 , with the intent on destroying or disruption construction of components for the then new cruise missile guidance system.

12 people injured , 5 million clams damages , and total disruption of the microwave oven supply for at least a year.

Declan
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  #29  
Old 08-26-2004, 12:07 PM
catsix catsix is offline
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Quote:
badmana said:
A CD is pretty strong plastic and I'm sure can take a good edge.
And it takes all of about one sharp fling against a plaster wall to give it one.

Crack a CD in half and you have 2 fairly sharp knives.

Creating a 'torrent' of blood does have more psychological effect on witnesses than doing massive physical damage that is virtually bloodless, also.
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  #30  
Old 08-26-2004, 04:09 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Originally Posted by Ravenman
And if I hear one more time silly allegations like "plastic knives are actually really dangerous," or "even *I* could kill someone with a ball-point pen, which *they* let through airport security!!!" I will challenge that person to a fight. You bring your plastic knife or ballpoint pen and try to hurt me. I will laugh my ass of as I kick yours around the block.

If it weren't illegal, I'd take the challenge. In a large part because it's not a matter of being defended when you're expecting an attack, but what things would work for weapons in an ambush situation. After all, I sure as shit don't worry about being taken out with boxcutters when I go to the local supermarket - and I've met some pretty scary people working retail.


Likewise, Cheesesteak, the issue isn't about what's more dangerous - I'd rather have a lacrosse stick in a good old fashioned fight than a box-cutter. But the box-cutters were what was used on 9/11.


Having said all that - to perfectly honest, I'm in 100% agreement with the OP. 99.9% of the security measures taken since 9/11 are window dressing, pure and simple. In a large part because the public wouldn't accept the real delays, and intrusions that effective security would require. Some of the changes at airports that have been made since 9/11 are real, and should be effective. But most of the crap they're handing us, from the HSD, to my crack-smoking junior senator's desire to make the US/Canada border 'airtight' is simply smoke and mirrors.

The fact is that any free society is going to be vulnerable to terror tactics. I don't see how to change that. But I don't like the placebos we've been getting. (While I was at UMass Amherst in the late 90's there was a clause in the student handbook that no weapons, nor anything that could be used as a weapon was to be permitted in dorm rooms. And the silly fuckers still put in beds, desks, pillows for godsakes, and allowed textbooks.
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