Sex Before Marriage-mandatory!

I think that sez it all, really.

The topic has come up on some other threads here and this happens to be an issue I feel very strongly about. While I truly can appreciate and respect that some people wish to save something so special for that person they believe to be their one true love, I think biological reality makes it impossible to make a healthy decision in this matter.

I have known SO many people who waited and regretted it. Both elderly people who were simply following the mores of the time they were young, and younger people who were at one time deeply religious. 9 out of 10 feel that they made their decisions foolishly.

The sex drive (for most people, Adam, apparantly not you) is so incredibly powerful...for heaven's sake it has driven enough people to murder, steal, lie and every other crime imaginable, hasn't it?... that it can crowd out any semblence of sanity.

I have always believed that people get married and divorced way too capriciously, and that marriage is a truly sacred commitment. I am saddened and confused by the number of people who enter into marriage almost as though it were just "going steady". I think we should all have plenty of time and experience under our belts before we can even HOPE to be able to really understand what tru love and commitment are, and what we are really doing when we are marrying someone.

I finally found mine... and it took 40 years. I had been engaged in the past, but I recognized that I was doing it for the wrong reasons. For most people, especially those who want children, one would hope it would come sooner. But for me, I would have gone nuts if I hadn't had sex until I was into my 40's, not to mention the fact that if I had been a virgin all those years it would have made me a radically different person and I never would have found the true love I did.

Besides all of that, most of know that sex is something we did very badly in the beginning, and that years of practice and exploration has taught us about ourselves, what we need, what we want, what we can live without. And finding out that those things are not in sync with your spouse after the deed is done would be horrible.

In conjunction with this I think that marriage should be DIFFICULT to get into, and divorce should be easy.

Just my thoughts this evening.

nothing to argue about there!

Not only do I strongly agree with the sex, gig, I think that all couples should live together before marriage.

The down side is that after the honeymoon, everything is pretty much the same other than you are married, but...

The up side is that you don't have to deal with the "first few months of pissing each other off because you are a slob/your are a neat freak BS". After you get married you have to consolidate finances, change your credit cards, license (bride) and other BS and if you throw a new "roommate" into the picture, that can make the first few months of marriage an argue-fest.

I have seen it done, both ways and the happier people for the first six months of marriage are clearly the "we've already lived in sin" crowd.

------------------
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it.
George Bernard Shaw

I knew that you would pick this one up Stoidela.

In a world where marriage is put off until the late 20's or later, sex before marriage has become a reality.

However, as with all things, there are shades of grey. I do believe in living together. But sex should be confined to long term, committed relationships. You shouldn't be having sex with people who are not marriage candidates. Sex carries some very heavy consequences, both emotional and physical. When you have sex, it should be with someone with whom you are willing to share the consequences of sex.

I say this out of 20/20 hindsight. I was promiscuous in college. So, yes, I am a hypocrite. But if I had it to do over, I would have done it radically differently.

I would just emphasize that "living together" (which would include sex) is a "good idea" (rather than "should be mandatory"), before marriage.

The states can legislate on these matters all they want; making laws that make marriage and divorce harder or easier, but they will never have any influence on how people approach relationships. Not that it was ever any of the government's business in the first place!

Interesting that several studies which have come out in recent years have indicated that the divorce rate is higher among couples who co-habitated prior to getting married. . .

I would hazard that the same people who believe that pre-marital co-habitation is a sin also believe that divorce is a sin!

"The sex drive (for most people, Adam, apparantly not you) is so incredibly powerful...for heaven's sake it has driven enough people to murder, steal, lie and every other crime imaginable, hasn't it?... that it can crowd out any semblence of sanity."

Are people who wait for sex until after marriage the ones who are more likely to commit crimes of passion? Let's see, when OJ Simpson murdered Nicole, he was on his second marriage and had already fathered kids in his first marriage. I kind of doubt Nicole was a virgin when she married him, either. I don't see how loosening marriage/sex values will reduce crimes of passion. In fact, I think people with loose marriage/sex values probably commit the most crimes of passion.

Also, money has driven enough people to murder, steal, lie and every other crime imaginable. So has crack and heroine abuse. Should we stop using money? Should we stop using banks to stop bank robbing? Should we legalize crack/heroine?

If you think a vice causes crimes, that doesn't mean the vice should be legalized or promoted by society.

Cheese, I think you misinterpreted Stoidela's post. She was just sayint that the sex drive is very powerful and overrides discretion and good sence (and the law.)

Stoidela, I agree with you and with Emerson on the "you are the acme of your past experience." Perhaps regret was too strong. How about: If I had to do it over, I would have done it differently ?

BTW, there were long term consequences to sex in the 70's. Namely Herpes and babies, not to mention emotional damage.

It sounds as if you feel fine about your sex life, and that is great. But Some folks do not fare so well.

The cycle is "I feel horrible about myself so I will have sex to gain acceptance, but being promiscuous makes me feel horrible about myself so I will have more sex for acceptance."

All I am saying is that sex with someont who is loving is healthy. serial sex can be healthy, but is usually not.

Cheesehead:

My first reaction to your post was going to be: HUH?

But evidently you did not undeerstand me. Mr. Z has pointed this out. I was merely saying that the sex drive is extremely powerful, and often crowds out common sense.

As for your assertions regarding who is more likely to behave badly, I would hesitate to say that whether someone is sexually active or not has any bearing whatsoever. But if it did, I would have to come down on the side of the abstinate as being more likely to lose it; they have a whole lot more frustration.

Mr. Z:

I do feel fine about my sex life, yet I made all the mistakes you mention...in spades. For reasons I won't go into here, I was very promiscuous, and for the most part it wasn't a great idea. I was very fortunate that I came out of it ok.

But I wouldn't take it back. It was part and parcel of who I have become, and I learned alot about myself and about other people. I have no shame, and no regrets. And if anyone ever judged me for my behavior, then they weren't the sort of people I wanted to be in my life anyway.

And about herpes? Yeah, it's incurable. It's also highly overrated as a disease. (Not that I'm recommending it, of course). For the enormous majority of people who have it (and the number is mindboggling: some estimate that over half the adults in this country carry the virus) it's nearly a non-issue. You get a cold sore on your genitals once or twice, end of story. Not true of everyone, but of most.

Babies? Well, that's a whole 'nother topic.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

I just remembered a story i saw on Dateline. After watching it, my fiance and I turned to each other and said "How sad".

It was about this couple, extremely religious. He asked for her hand in marriage from her father before he even let her know he was interested. Got the ok, began courting. During the entire courting/engagement they did not even hold hands, much less kiss. Nothing. Zero. The first time they touched each other was on the altar after they said "I do".

Less than a year later, they already had their first child.

She's 19 or 20, I believe.

And yeah, I think that is incredibly sad. Those two people dont' even know each other, she's already saddledd with kids...and I predict that by the time she's 30 she'sll be utterly miserable, but of couse probably won't do anything about it.

(shiver)

------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

VegforLife--"If the first few months or marriage are an argue-fest because one partner is a slob and the other partner is a neat freak, then neither partner knew the other well enough to begin with."

Spare me. You said it yourself, "I just got married" Call me in a year. Marriage changes things, don't ask me why, I don't know, but it does. Don't believe me? Ask your married friends who have been married over two, three years. I'm not saying it gets worse or better, it just changes, fact.

Living together prior to marriage, just reduces the number of changes.

------------------
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it.
George Bernard Shaw

I've done it both ways. Before my first marriage, I lived with my girlfriend/fiancee. Long story short, the marriage did not work out.

Before the 2nd marriage, I did not live with my girlfriend. Instead, we tried something really wild and bizarre--we talked. We shared our feelings, our likes and dislikes, and what we thought our life would be like. We did not sleep together until the wedding night. We are happily married to this day.

I'm not going to be disingenuous and say sex is not important. It's just not the prime reason for the relationship. Besides, sex is like dancing--you can get better at it by practicing with a caring partner.

In both relationships I had arguements with my wives. In the first one, we never resolved any of the issues, and they festered and drove us apart. In my current marriage, we made an agreement to never go to bed mad at each other. It's hard to do, but it's important to our relationship.

Guy:

I will say this about the man I love: I conducted the relationship completely differently than I ever had before. I was forced to by geography.

While we did sleep together the very first night (although we had known each other casually as friends for 6 months prior) and a whole bunch more after that, we only saw each other on weekends. That went on for 2 years. Lots of phone calls and e-mails during the week, and then lots of sex on the weekends. When he finally moved, we did not move in together, he moved directly next door to me in his own apartment. We almost always slept apart in our own homes, but of course saw each other every day. That went on for 2 more years.

We just finally moved in together 4 months ago. (We have also owned a business together for 2 1/2 years - lotta togetherness, lotta extra stress) And in spite of living right next door...living together is different. We are adjusting.

Interestingly, we have separate bedrooms. We almost never sleep together. We have very different internal clocks, and we do not get good rest sleeping together. But we are the kissingest, cuddliest pair you will ever meet.

I think it helped our relationship grow strong that we did not end up together all the time from the very beginning, which is how most of my other relationships had gone.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

VegforLife;
I have to jump in here and support Jahender's view. I know that everyone hates to hear it, but he is absolutely right in saying that it is different after you get married. Give it a few years---in my experience it takes at least 2 or 3. Then you wake up one morning and say, "My god! How could I have not seen what he/she is really like?" This doesn't always mean the relationship ends badly, but it does mean there will be some adjusting.
Before I married, my views were very much like yours, and I thought that those other people who were getting divorced just didn't put as much thought and effort into their relationship as I had. HA! Save yourself the humbling experience of eating your words and give it a while. Best of luck to you, and congratulations.

------------------
"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

Stoidela, can you fix me up with any of your girlfriends with similar values?

I read a frightening story once, in some Dear Abby-like forum, about a woman who saved herself for marriage. Her new husband, it is important to note, was a mortician.
He could not have sex with her unless she first took a long, ice cold bath; then she had to lie perfectly still in order for him to perform.

Wouldn't that be a pleasant surprise on your wedding night?

Holly:

YAAAAAAAR!!!!!!!

I wonder how many morticians are necrophiles? And I wonder how many necrophiles are morticians?

But this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm talking about.

yar.

There would be no question if it was me: instant divorce.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

[[VegforLife--"If the first few months or marriage are an argue-fest because one partner is a slob and the other partner is a neat freak, then neither partner knew the other well enough to begin with."

Spare me.]] Jahender

Nope, sorry.

[[You said it yourself, "I just got married" Call me in a year.]]

Of course, that would be substantially after that "first few months" you mentioned, wouldn't it?

[[Marriage changes things, don't ask me why, I don't know, but it does. Don't believe me?]]

Of course I do. And I'm sure that if you'll go back and re-read what I wrote earlier you'll see that I never referred to whether or not marriage changes anything, I was simply discussing the subject that you brought up, which was "argue-fests" in the first few months of living together caused by differences *that already exist*.

[[Ask your married friends who have been married over two, three years.]]

No need, I did plenty of that *before* I got married.

[[I'm not saying it gets worse or better, it just changes, fact.]]

No disagreement here, and, as noted above, there never was.

[[I have to jump in here and support Jahender's view. I know that everyone hates to hear it, but he is absolutely right in saying that it is different after you get married. Give it a few years---in my experience it takes at least 2 or 3. Then you wake up one morning and say, "My god! How could I have not seen what he/she is really like?"]] Lucky

I fully expect that to happen. Maybe not to that degree, but to some degree, certainly. I mean, anyone who thinks they know someone else inside and out is at the very least somewhat naive. However, if whether or not the person in question is a "neat-freak" or a "slob" makes you wake up after two or three years, well, I'd say "naive" is too kind a word.

Rich

I just remembered a story i saw on Dateline. After watching it, my
fiance and I turned to each other and said "How sad".
It was about this couple, extremely religious. He asked for her hand in
marriage from her father before he even let her know he was interested.
Got the ok, began courting. During the entire courting/engagement they
did not even hold hands, much less kiss. Nothing. Zero. The first time
they touched each other was on the altar after they said "I do".

Less than a year later, they already had their first child.

She's 19 or 20, I believe.

And yeah, I think that is incredibly sad. Those two people dont' even
know each other, she's already saddledd with kids...and I predict that
by the time she's 30 she'sll be utterly miserable, but of couse probably
won't do anything about it.

(shiver)

Ok, it's probably not a good idea to quote an ENTIRE post, but I couldn't omit any of it, so sorry guys.

I think it's beautiful that a couple could abstain from any sort of contact until the altar. Now, personaly, I don't think kissing, or holding hands before marriage is bad. But waiting to do even that, makes it so much more special on your wedding day.

Now, Stoidela said, "Those two people don't even know each other." Why is it that you must kiss somebody to know them. Why must you live with them to know them. Well, you don't. Before marriage, you should know your fiance's heart of hearts. If you truly know somebody's personality, and habits, then living together won't be so much of a surprise.

Aparently, few of you realize the power in waiting for your mate. I have yet to fully realize it myself. But when I marry, I'll know that I'll have saved ALL of myself for her. And it will make our bond so much stronger. What's that phrase? "Two will become one."

Adam

With my current wife, we never had "argue fests" the first few months or ever. While we were abstaining from sex we had time to establish the manner in which we would settle disputes. that was one big advantage to waiting. Without the sex, we had time to focus on each other as people and not as sex playmates.

SOmeone once said that in the first 6 weeks you establish all of the rules and expectations fo your entire relationship. I believe that that is true.

Poo.

Where are the flames?
There have to be [flames[/i].

Never mind - this software burns my ass.

Ummm...ok:

Nickrz! You stupid ASS! How could you be such a MORON?

Happy now?



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

Arg, did you actually read the post you quoted? Here, we'll do it again, bit by bit.

"He asked for her hand in
marriage from her father before he even let her know he was interested. Got the ok, began courting."

Ok, so basically, without her knowledge or her consent, this man and her father decided her future. Nice. This is the 20th century, right? I thought so, but then again... anyway, getting on...

"During the entire courting/engagement they
did not even hold hands, much less kiss. Nothing. Zero. The first time
they touched each other was on the altar after they said "I do"."

Hmm... I don't know about anyone else, but this is SCREAMING "bad idea". I don't care how devout a person is, if you are in love with someone, you'll AT LEAST hold hands every now and then.


"Less than a year later, they already had their first child.

She's 19 or 20, I believe."

LESS THAN A YEAR? After ZERO touching throughout the "courtship"? Not to put too sharp a point on it, I'd have to conclude that she probably didn't have much choice in matters of sex. I seriously doubt that, since getting married to this guy was not her decision in the first place, she actually WANTED to have sex with him, much less, children.

Now to quote you.
"Why is it that you must kiss somebody to know them. Why must you live with them to know them. Well, you don't. Before marriage, you should know your fiance's heart of hearts. If you truly know somebody's personality, and habits, then living together won't be so much of a surprise."

You don't "know" someone because you kiss them or live with them. You kiss someone because you know them (or because you want to ) and most unmarried couples who live together already know each other well. It's not so much "we're only living together so we can decide whether or not we want to get married" as it is "we care about each other a lot and we like to spend time in each other's company and this makes sense for us."

At any rate, I seriously doubt that you, a young male who is inherently a sinner (this is all from what I've derived by reading threads you've figured prominently into) have never had sex, been kissed, or held hands. (Please keep in mind that this is NOT a religious thread, so should you reply to this, I would appreciate YOUR thoughts, not your selfserving misinterpretation of the Bible.)

Sex and cohabitation before marriage is a choice for everyone. Some choose to do it, some choose not to, and everyone's reasons are unique for them. But choosing NOT to do it solely because you want to "become one" with your new spouse is just silly. "Becoming one" happens when you take your vows, not when you have sex a few hours afterward.

I agree with Papabear

perhaps it is a good thing, but I am definately against making it mandatory

Mr. Zambezi:

First of all: never regret. Unless of course, you hate yourself. If you love yourself and love how you've grown, remember that you got there through your experiences, both bad and good. Without failure, mistakes, and challenges, you would never have become who you are today. Embrace failure, it's the only real teacher.

Secondly, while I understand the idea of only having sex with potential marriage candidates, for most people I dont' think it's really very practical. And yes, sex is special...but maybe we need to strike a balance between treating it like using the toilet and treating it like a holy sacrament. I think if you take it TOO seriously, you take all the fun out of it.

My parents both taught me these values. My parents emphasized that I should never even think about marrying a man I hadn't slept with first, and she also said something that really stuck with me. When I asked her how old I had to be to have sex, she didn't give me an arbitrary number, she said this: "When you're old enough to take responsibility for the consequences." And I think that was great advice. For while I did start having sex young, I was the last among my peers to do so, and they had been raised in houses of silence.

I also grew up in Hollywood in the 70's, when most people were some version of slutty. It would have been hard not to participate. This is not the case any more.

My friends and I look fondly back on those days...the only period in the history of the world when sex was completely safe and free of long term consequence. No AIDS, all the other venereal diseases were easily cured, and we had the pill. It was a blast.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

You don't "know" someone because you kiss them or live with them. You
kiss someone because you know them (or because you want to ) and most
unmarried couples who live together already know each other well. It's
not so much "we're only living together so we can decide whether or not
we want to get married" as it is "we care about each other a lot and we
like to spend time in each other's company and this makes sense for us."

Yep, I read you loud and clear there Chris. Don't you think I KNOW why unmarried couples live together? I still don't think it's right though.

At any rate, I seriously doubt that you, a young male who is inherently
a sinner (this is all from what I've derived by reading threads you've
figured prominently into) have never had sex, been kissed, or held
hands.

You can doubt all you want to, but I've never had sex. As for holding hands and kissing...well, that's a different story.

When I responded to Stoidela, I was mostly pinpointing the fact that she thought it was "sad" that they hadn't had any contact before the altar. As for the whole, "she may not have wanted him in the first place" idea...well, we don't know that for sure. So I'm not going to assume anything on the couple's part.

Adam

[[The up side is that you don't have to deal with the "first few months of pissing each other off because you are a slob/your are a neat freak BS". After you get married you have to consolidate finances, change your credit cards, license (bride) and other BS and if you throw a new "roommate" into the picture, that can make the first few months of marriage an argue-fest.]] Jahender

If the first few months or marriage are an argue-fest because one partner is a slob and the other partner is a neat freak, then neither partner knew the other well enough to begin with. If you spend any appreciable amount of time at your partner's residence -- which is something that most dating couples do -- you should know how they live, and if you have a brain at all you should be able to compare that to the way that you live, and be able to assess the differences that will come up when you start living together. As long as you have good communication and are willing to work together to come up with a solution to those differences, there shouldn't be any trouble, whether you move in together when you get married or before.

I just got married, and my girlfriend of three and half years moved in one week before the wedding (and that was only due to timing considerations, I would have been just as happy waiting until after the wedding). It felt a bit more special to me to start our life together as a co-habitating couple at the same time we started our life together as a married couple, even though neither one of us is religious in the least, or harbors any negative feelings about "living in sin." We operate very differently, yet we've had no arguments at all because we approach the differences with respect for the other person.

[[I have seen it done, both ways and the happier people for the first six months of marriage are clearly the "we've already lived in sin" crowd.]]

Interesting that several studies which have come out in recent years have indicated that the divorce rate is higher among couples who co-habitated prior to getting married. . .

Rich

Stoidela:

I think that marriage should be DIFFICULT to get into, and divorce should be easy.

Made difficult by whom? The government? Why do we need more interference? All the stories told here (and the many untold ones) suggest that success in marriage doesn't depend on living together or not before marriage.

Most of the couple I know who lived together before getting married had an 'argue-fest' for a while after the wedding. (I'm not knocking co-habitating before marriage - did it myself.)

However, that little ceremony does change things for some people. My opinion is that, as long as no ceremony has taken place, each partner is still tiptoeing just a little bit around the other - after all, they could get mad and leave at any time, what's to stop them? However, after the ceremony there is a formal legally binding tie that makes separation harder, so that partners feel a little freer to complain or argue a point than they did previously. There may also be a sense of 'testing the new limits'.

Not in every case, but in some.

------------------
sosumi

Takes 6 months of bullshit to get a divorce. I think there should be some kind of similar hurdles to getting married.

But of course, we know that I am functional liberal with the secret heart of a fascist, so there ya go.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

Stoidela:

I response to your suggestion that getting married should be difficult, I must tell you that in some cases, it is. I realize my situation is somewhat unique, but I am engaged to a Nepali man. I have been battling with Immigration and Naturalization services for 7 months now to try to get him a visa to come here so we can marry. The process will require an additional 4 months, at the minimum. Let me tell you, having your future in the hands of bureaucrats bites.

------------------
"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

just a few comments on this thread.....

stoidela,
you said that the sex drive can cause people to do acts of violence, commit crimes, etc.........
I read many of the posts on the PEOPLE HUNTING thread and saw that many of yall are anti gun becuase of the damage they can cause------IF we apply the same princaple (pardon spelling) to this subject, shouldnt sex be outlawed, or at least be only permited to those who have special sex licenses????

Also about the 19 year old girl having kids------Hello!!! sex was intended to MAKE kids----not pleasure------the pleasure part is so you will enjoy it and thus have sex more often--thus creating more kids.......

------------------


"In wildness is the preservation of the world, so seek the wolf inside thyself"

Also about the 19 year old girl having kids------Hello!!! sex was intended to MAKE
kids----not pleasure------the pleasure part is so you will enjoy it and thus have sex
more often--thus creating more kids.......

Gee, I guess since I had a vasectomy I'm not allowed to have sex anymore.

Also about the 19 year old girl having kids------Hello!!! sex was intended to
MAKE kids----not pleasure------the pleasure part is so you will enjoy it and thus have sex more often--thus creating more kids.......

No one is disputing the ultimate reason for sex. The point is that this girl was probably not given full choice in the matter.

PL: Yesh, I guess me neither. (Been spayed)

Justin:

--IF we apply the same princaple (pardon spelling) to this
subject, shouldnt sex be outlawed, or at least be only permited to
those who have special sex licenses????

Uh...no. I think you are reaching really, really far.

------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

I'm for the sex before marriage. I have too many friends than I care to mention that gave me the evil eye because I was ::start evil music:::having sex without the benefit of marriage. I don't regret any of the grins and giggles I had before I met My Reason For Living. These narrow minded twits of girlfriends were what I use to refer to as the Virgin Brigade and that the holiest thing you can give your husband is your hymen. None of their husbands, might I add, were virgins BUT THAT WAS OK WITH THEM. I don't get double standards. One is married and have 5 kids in 8 years and one is my sister in law and she is a terrible prude. I haven't talked to two of the three in ten years and the last I can't avoid.

As for living together before marriage, no way. If I had lived with my husband before the Big Day, I would have decided to be a cat lady for the rest of my life. The man only cleans for company, and then it's only when his mom comes over. I've become a neatnik by default.

Obviously the mandatory issue has been discussed and we agree that such is not our gov't's business.

First, let me say that what ever others want to do is fine by me.

Second, I do believe in not having sex before marriage. I got married at 22 and was a virgin. I had done as others have mentioned and looked at my future wife's life to see if we would be compatible. As someone else mentioned sex gets better with practice, especially with a caring partner.

My fiance and I had discussed sex and we were both virgins. We decided that we would remain virgins until we got married. We also discussed having and raising children and many other aspects of our future life.

We had more arguments before we were married than we have after. We dated for 3 months and were engaged for a year. We have just celebrated 7 years of marriage and have a 2 1/2 year old. It has gotten better every year. We have been comfortable enough to talk about sex, even during sex, for our entire marriage. This has helped us learn how to please each other.

For us waiting was the right thing to do.

Jeffery