Can anyone convert to Judaism?

[emacknight]

This isn't much of a debate, but I'm sure there will be more than one *right* answer.

Can anyone convert to Judaism? And once converted, would they be accepted as a traditional Jewish person?

[zev_steinhardt]

Anyone can convert to Judaism, provided that the prospective convert can convince the Beit Din (the court supervising the conversion) that s/he is sincere. It's not so easy.

Generally speaking, once converted the person is regarded as a full-fledged Jew. However, Orthodox Jews will not recognize conversions carried out under non-Orthodox auspecies. (I'm sure I spelled that wrong, but you get the drift). Conservative Judaism, I'm pretty sure, will not accept conversions done by Reform Rabbis as well.

Zev Steinhardt

[RickG]

I'm pretty sure that most Conservative congregations will accept Reform conversions if and only if the conversion included mikvah (ritual immersion) and milah or hatafat dam brit (ritual circumcision or blood drawn in place of circ. for the those who were circumcised already) for men. Some qualify, some don't.

Other than that, what Zev said.

Rick

PS Isn't this more of a General Question?

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally Posted by RickG

I'm pretty sure that most Conservative congregations will accept Reform conversions if and only if the conversion included mikvah (ritual immersion) and milah or hatafat dam brit (ritual circumcision or blood drawn in place of circ. for the those who were circumcised already) for men. Some qualify, some don't.

You may be correct, RickG, but I've got to ask - doesn't the Conservative movment hold of the requirement of kabbalas ol mitzvos (accepting the commandments) as a requirement of conversion? Since Reform holds that halacha (Jewish law) is optional, wouldn't that invalidate Reform conversions according to the Conservative movement?

Zev Steinhardt

[rackensack]

Originally Posted by zev_steinhardt

. . . doesn't the Conservative movment hold of the requirement of kabbalas ol mitzvos (accepting the commandments) as a requirement of conversion?

It occurs to me that I don't know the official position of the Conservative movement, but it was certainly a requirement of the rabbi who oversaw my (Conservative) conversion, as well as of the beit din.

[C K Dexter Haven]

I'd like to comment that on this issue (accepting a convert as a "traditional Jewish person"), as on so many, there's the theoretic (or legal) angle and the practical angle.

Remember that Judaism is not just a religion, it is also a code of law. Thus, there is a "legal" side to the question of whether one accepts a convert. Zev and RickG are discussing this aspect, where the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform movements have different requirements for conversion.

However, there's also the practical side that no one is going to question bona fides. If you show up at a synagogue service and participate, no one will stop to ask you who converted you. If you ask for an aliyah (saying the blessings before the Torah is read), no one will ask about your conversion process. (PS, if you a guest and someone offers you an aliyah and you're not Jewish, you should say so. That's good manners and being respectful of another religion. But you are not required to say that you were converted.)

In short, the practical side is that if you say you're Jewish, you will be accepted as such in almost every normal situation. (One can imagine complex situations where your word might not be enough, but those are the legal cases, not every day life.)


PS - Zev, I notice that you are careful in your wording:

Originally Posted by Zev

Orthodox Jews will not recognize conversions carried out under non-Orthodox auspecies.

Let me just clarify, that doesn't mean that Orthodox Jews won't recognize conversions carried out by Conservative rabbis, it means that it depends on the conversion process. I've talked with a leading Orthodox rabbi in Chicago, who said that he knows most of the Chicago-area rabbis who do conversions, and he would accept the conversions by this Conservative rabbi but not that one, because he knows the standards each one uses.

(And the word is spelled "auspices".)

[Rune]

Don’t Jews consider themselves the chosen people? God chose the Jews, they didn’t choose themselves. How can a convertee choose himself?

[rackensack]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

However, there's also the practical side that no one is going to question bona fides. If you show up at a synagogue service and participate, no one will stop to ask you who converted you. If you ask for an aliyah (saying the blessings before the Torah is read), no one will ask about your conversion process. . . . In short, the practical side is that if you say you're Jewish, you will be accepted as such in almost every normal situation.

As a convert, that's certainly been my experience. It's hardly possible to look less stereotypically "Jewish" than I do -- ethnically, I'm almost entirely Scots-Irish/English, with very pale white skin liberally freckled, brown hair with reddish highlights, etc. And my name couldn't be any more lowland Scots/English. I've never had anyone question my Jewishness (at least not to my face) at any synagogue I've been to (and my wife has relatives all up and down the east coast who've had weddings, bar/bat mitzvahs, etc. since my conversion).

Converts are just as Jewish as Jews by birth under Jewish law (the only exception that comes to mind is that a Kohen is prohibited from marrying a convert), and the rabbis have also injoined against calling attention to a convert's status or reminding them of it, so Jews who are at all aware of this would naturally not mention a convert's status unless they had compelling reasons to believe that an individual was not a legitimate convert and that some imminent danger of a liturgical or halakhic problem existed.

[Johnny Bravo]

Originally Posted by Rune

Don’t Jews consider themselves the chosen people? God chose the Jews, they didn’t choose themselves. How can a convertee choose himself?

God chose the Jews to be a 'light unto nations' by upholding the laws he provided for them. There's no reason why a gentile can't decide to become a Jew and uphold those laws himself. I've even had one rabbi say that converts are more blessed because they have chosen to become Jews, while most of us are born that way and stuck with it. ;j

[rackensack]

Originally Posted by Rune

Don’t Jews consider themselves the chosen people? God chose the Jews, they didn’t choose themselves. How can a convertee choose himself?

G-d chose to have a special covenant with the Jewish people: you follow this set of laws about how to live, and I'll make you a "light unto the nations" and have a special relationship with you. The covenant is with those who accept the yoke of the commandments, not necessarily with those born of a particular bloodline, and thus it is eminently possible for someone to "choose" to be part of the chosen (though those born of a Jewish mother are implicitly assumed to have accepted the covenant -- in Jewish tradition all Jews who ever have existed or will exist were present at Sinai to accept the commandments for themselves).

[RickG]

Originally Posted by zev_steinhardt

You may be correct, RickG, but I've got to ask - doesn't the Conservative movment hold of the requirement of kabbalas ol mitzvos (accepting the commandments) as a requirement of conversion? Since Reform holds that halacha (Jewish law) is optional, wouldn't that invalidate Reform conversions according to the Conservative movement?

Zev Steinhardt

C K Dexter Haven has expressed the practical side of this pretty well. I have been looking around on the net for a definitive statement of the Conservative policy on this, but all I have been able to find are indirect statements. It does not appear that there's much Conservative responsa online.

My understanding, again, is that the movement's standards absolutely require immersion for all and circumcision for men, along with a course of study in preparation for conversion. If these requirements were met by the Reform conversion, and the local Rabbi is satisfied of the sincerity of the convert (and the kashrut of the rituals) then the conversion is accepted for the purposes of synagogue honors, marriage, etc.

While Conservative converts must accept the yoke of the commandments, I think conversion is considered the beginning of growth in observance, and converts are not expected to be completely shomer mitzvot immediately (although, of course, it is certainly not discouraged). I always thought the proper answer to a question about whether one observed a particular mitzvah that one could theoretically observe, but did not, was "Not yet." ;j

All the above is with the disclaimer that I am not an authority on these issues. I will try to ask my Rabbi sometime soon, though.

-Rick

[emacknight]

Great answers, thanks.

As a followup, does Judaism ever push to recruit non-believers the way so many other religions go door to door? If not, why not?

[SuaSponte]

Originally Posted by emacknight

Great answers, thanks.

As a followup, does Judaism ever push to recruit non-believers the way so many other religions go door to door? If not, why not?

No. In earlier times, Judaism was an evangelical religion; a non-insignificant percentage of the Roman Empire was Jewish or accepted at least some tenents of the Jewish faith.

These days, however, the prevailing position is that the choice to accept the yoke of the commandments is an individual choice, and not to be unduly influenced. Indeed, it is proper to point out to the potential convertee the downsides of becoming a Jew, such as centuries of persecution, etc.

That's not to say that there is no such thing as Jewish prostelyzing. The Lubavitch Hasidim are famous (or infamous) for their efforts to bring Reform, Conservative and non-practicing Jews into their sect. The Mitsvahmobile is a well-known sight in New York City.

Sua

Apologies for any misspellings. No coffee yet this morning.

[Captain Amazing]

Judaism doesn't really proslytize. In fact, it almost discourages conversions. Why is that? I think there are two factors. For one, Judaism doesn't believe that only Jews can be good people, or go to heaven, or whatever. It's not religiously exclusionist, like Christianity or Islam, so there's not the "save the heathens' souls from hell" mentality.

Secondly, for almost 2000 years, most Jews have lived in societies where trying to convert people to Judaism was a bad idea. If I were to stand on a street corner in medieval Paris or medieval Baghdad (or, for that matter, modern Baghdad) and started preaching to people that their religion was wrong and that they needed to become Jews, that would just be a fairly creative way to commit suicide.

[SuaSponte]

Well, Captain, even non-Jews have to obey the Noahide commandments in order to achieve the afterlife. So why aren't you guys out on street corners prostelytizing the need for proper criminal courts?

Huh? Huh!!



Sua

[Lochdale]

I have nothing to add other than to say that this is a fascinating discussion. I work in an almost exclusively Jewish law firm in Chicago so this is very interesting to me. Keep it up!

[acoop]

Originally Posted by emacknight

Great answers, thanks.

As a followup, does Judaism ever push to recruit non-believers the way so many other religions go door to door? If not, why not?

that has happened in about 2000 years, and you now see that man on a cross

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

Secondly, for almost 2000 years, most Jews have lived in societies where trying to convert people to Judaism was a bad idea. If I were to stand on a street corner in medieval Paris or medieval Baghdad (or, for that matter, modern Baghdad) and started preaching to people that their religion was wrong and that they needed to become Jews, that would just be a fairly creative way to commit suicide.

Worse, in some of those societies, it was a good way to start a pogrom.

[vibrotronica]

Here's a related question:

I have a friend who I don't see very often. He was raised in a mainline Protestant family that wasn't very observant (Christmas and Easter Presbyterians, I think). I recently heard that he had converted to Messaianic Judaism and was driving from Nashville to Louisville (or maybe Lexington) every week to attend services. I think it's pretty out of character for him, but hey, as a hardcore-fundamentalist-raised atheist I'm not here to judge anyone's religious choices.

But a) isn't Christianity technically just Messaianic Judaism anyway? and b) Isn't the whole idea of Messainic Judaism that members are Jews who accepted Jesus as the messiah? How does one go about converting from nominally-Christian-but-basically-nothing to Messianic Judaism? Do you have to convert to Judaism first and then to Messainic Judaism or do you skip the middle part?

And please forgive me in advance if anything I said was too offensive. Due to my upbringing, I am quite ignorant about Judaism except for what I read in the Old Testament in Church of Christ Sunday school. Well, that and I understand that there are some tasty potato latkes involved in there somewhere.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by vibrotronica

But a) isn't Christianity technically just Messaianic Judaism anyway?

Disclaimer: IANA Messianic Jew. As I understand it, Messianic Judaism is theologically Christian but culturally Jewish- they celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Here's a personal story of someone who is a former Messianic Jew that talks about what the services were like in his church.

I converted to Judaism, and by far most of the stuff I learned during the conversion process was about Jewish culture and history, not theology. It really is different from most forms of Christianity that you find in the US in that way. Maybe something like Greek Orthodoxy has more emphasis on the culture, too, but my exposure to Greek Orthodoxy consists of having seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding", so what do I know?

[rackensack]

A couple of the reasons why Jews don't proselytize have been mentioned already, but perhaps the most important one today (now that most countries no longer make it illegal) has only been alluded to (by Captain Amazing and -- sort of -- SuaSponte). In Jewish theology, salvation is not limited to Jews, but is available to anyone who lives a righteous life by fulfilling the Noachide Covenant -- the seven commandments that make up the convenant between G-d and Noah after the flood. These basically are:

• Don't murder;
• Don't steal;
• Don't worship false gods;
• Don't commit certain acts of sexual immorality;
• Don't eat the limbs of an animal before it's killed;
• Don't blaspheme;
• Set up courts of law and bring offenders to justice.

You should also believe in a single God (see the third item in the list). But basically, if you can manage those seven, you're already entitled to whatever Jews who fulfill all 613 mitzvot (or at least as many of them as are possible in this post-Temple age) get. So the problem, for most rabbis, is that by allowing/encouraging you to convert to Judaism, they're actually making it much harder for you to attain salvation -- you've got a lot more to do, and a lot more ways to mess it up. Who needs that kind of guilt on their conscience? ;j

[Noone Special]

Originally Posted by rackensack

the seven commandments that make up the convenant between G-d and Noah after the flood. These basically are:

• Don't murder;
• Don't steal;
• Don't worship false gods;
• Don't commit certain acts of sexual immorality;
• Don't eat the limbs of an animal before it's killed;
• Don't blaspheme;
• Set up courts of law and bring offenders to justice.

Off the top of my head (and IANA religious Jew), I think this list isn't quite right. It should be, IIRC, commandments 3 & 5-10, which are (not exactly in order):

• Don't blaspheme
• Honor your parents
• Don't steal
• Don't commit adultry
• Don't murder
• Don't covet
• Don't bear false witness

(which is pretty close to your list - but how did the bit about the animals' limbs come to replace honoring parents? )

Dani

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Noone Special

Off the top of my head (and IANA religious Jew), I think this list isn't quite right. It should be, IIRC, commandments 3 & 5-10

No, this is the Seven Noachide Laws, which are different from the Ten Commandments. These are the laws that were given to Noah after the Flood, and since (according to the Torah) all people alive today are descended from Noah, these laws are binding on everyone. They have some of the same laws that later show up in the Ten Commandments, but are two different sets of laws given at different times.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Originally Posted by Rune

Don’t Jews consider themselves the chosen people? God chose the Jews, they didn’t choose themselves. How can a convertee choose himself?

It has always been possible for others to join the Israelite people. The bible records that a "mixed multitude" joined the Israelites in the Exodus. And Ruth, of course, is the most famous convert, the great-grandmother of David. (The clear lesson being that Jew-by-birth has no claim to superiority over Jew-by-choice.)

[WeRSauron]

Also, traditionally, Orthodox rabbis are supposed to refuse a potential convert's request three times. This is to make sure the potential convert is really sincere.

Why this discouragement? Some reasons have been mentioned. I'd like to state another reason explicitly (it was implied by the reference to pogroms). Throughout history, people have accused the Jews of recruiting "innocent" people to their religion. These accusations were false at the time they were made, but the impact remains to today. With a few exceptions, Jews did not go about to make converts. There were always the so-called "G-d-fearers," those who were attracted to Judaism and even practiced a few mitzvot (Sabbath, prayer, diet, etc.) but who did not convert. There were, of course, converts, but these came from the G-d-fearers rather than from hearing Jews preach their religion in an attempt to get converts. Conversion in ancient Judaism was a passive affair, as far as Jews and Judaism is concerned: they let the converts come to them rather than otherwise. When they came, they were welcomed (for the most part). This is very much the opposite of what exists in Islam and more so in Christianity.

It's a measure of self-defense to not be eager to convert others or accept converts. Jews did not want any more accusations of trying to "ensnare" "innocent" people. Non-Jews who are hostile to Jews would have considered and today still consider people converting to Judaism as being ensnared by some Jewish plot, when the facts are quite the opposite. (Members of the convert's old religion will find someone to blame for brainwashing the convert. They cannot accept that a person would consciously make the choice of abandoning their religion and become a Jew: they had to be brainwashed, fooled, or trapped. Conversion to Judism is not the only case wherein this happens, though.) Of course, in today's world it's safer for a person to become a Jew, safer for the convert and the Jews, but the lively existence of anti-Semitism should not be ignored.

For what it's worth, I told a Lubavitcher rabbi I was very much interested in Judaism and, at times, even thought I have a nefesh yehudi. He was a bit distanced with me - I could see he was not very comfortable. He said that G-d made me the way I am. Therefore, I should find fulfillment where G-d made me. It does not make sense going about converting to other religions. Besides, there is never any need to convert to Judaism since all humanity needs are the Noachide Laws. He told me that I could share what I learned from Torah with those of my religion. Nonetheless, I would be free to participate in whatever Jewish services I could attend. At the end, however, he did say that conversion to Judaism is only done as a last resort, if spiritual fulfillment simply cannot be found elsewhere. (I told this to a Jewish professor at my alma mater, and he informed me that the rabbi would give me a similar response two more times. The fourth time I approach the rabbi, he'll accept my interest without hesitation.)

WRS

[yBeayf]

Maybe something like Greek Orthodoxy has more emphasis on the culture, too

Only about as much as Roman Catholicism is about Italian culture.

[Noone Special]

Originally Posted by Anne Neville

No, this is the Seven Noachide Laws, which are different from the Ten Commandments. These are the laws that were given to Noah after the Flood, and since (according to the Torah) all people alive today are descended from Noah, these laws are binding on everyone. They have some of the same laws that later show up in the Ten Commandments, but are two different sets of laws given at different times.

Huh. I always had the impression that "Sheva Mizvoth Bnei Noah" referred to those commandments that were not specifically about the technicalities of worshipping Jehova Itself... (Well, I did say that I'm not religious, so this was anecdotal "so-called knowledge" all along). I stand corrected. Thanks for the link!

(And appologies to rackensack too, for "correcting" his correct posting)

Dani