$14.6 Billion wasn't enough to get the job done correctly? Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

[danceswithcats]

Granted, it is/was one of the most complex engineering projects ever undertaken, but having failures of this magnitude just astounds. If problems were identified 5 years ago, why weren't they addressed then? Now there are not a few, but "hundreds" of leaks in the tunnel, such that the dewatering system engineered into the project cannot keep up.

Oversight/management at Bechtel or Modern Continental (perhaps both) has screwed up mightily, and I hope the Massachusetts taxpayers don't get hosed over the remediation, which may take up to ten more years.

Link , link , link.

[Typo Negative]

Amorello promised repeatedly that contractors - not taxpayers - will pay for repairs.

Yeah. That'll happen.

[World Eater]

It's Boston though, they deserve some misery after beating rhe Yanks.

[Sublight]

That's appropriate I guess, seeing as how the Dig lasted almost as long as the Bambino's curse.

[Agent Foxtrot]

Why do none of the articles actually describe what Big Dig is?

Adam

[ralph124c]

No corrupt official ever goes to jail in this state..that ended with Mayor Curley! The big dig was a disater in the making..the tunnel runs through filled land, which soaks up water like a sponge..and the fact is, the walls werenever properly grouted (this was known since 1998.)
There will be a big investigation plus noisey hearings..but in the end, the taxpayers will pay, and the politicians wll keep on stealing.
For you MA Dopers: anyone remembe the Boston Underground Parking Garage scandal of the 50's50's?It was built by a corrupt contractor, who paid bribes to virtually every politician in Boston..and when it started to leak (and collapse) in the 70's, it cost MORE to fix than to build it!
One of my grandfather's neighbors got a jail term out of this!
So MA taxpayers..tighten your belts and prepare to get screwed!

[Earthworm Jim]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Why do none of the articles actually describe what Big Dig is?

Adam

From the first linked article in the OP:

The project replaced the elevated Central Artery of Interstate 93 with underground tunnels through downtown Boston. It also connected Interstate 90 — the Massachusetts Turnpike — to Logan Airport, and added the Ted Williams Tunnel beneath Boston Harbor.

[Sublight]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Why do none of the articles actually describe what Big Dig is?

Adam

Interstate 93 was built going straight through Boston. To get through a city that was already a tight fit back when the work was done 40-50 years ago, the highways were elevated, with one direction stacked atop the other. This worked well, except that the roads soon became too narrow to handle the traffic loads, and it's a bit tough to add a lane to a road fifty feet in the air.

The solution? Bury it all. Make a giant tunnel going under the city, and have I-93 go thataway. Of course, it's almost as hard to add a lane to a tunnel that's too narrow as it is an elevated highway.

But that's not all! There was also a slight problem with Interstate 90 (the one running East-West all the way from Seattle). While it went in a straight line across the state heading right for Logan airport, it ended abruptly, about a mile (and a moderately sized stretch of harbor) short of what everyone thought should be its goal. Getting to the airport required a very awkward series of on- and off-ramps, usually resulting in awful snarl-ups and lost tourists.

The solution? Bury that too. Send I-90 through a third harbor tunnel (there are two other tunnels a little further north, which come out near I-93), where it can pop back up again right in front of Logan.

Now, this all sounds like pretty complicated work to me, but it doesn't sound 20 years and $20 billion complicated.

[tdn]

You know, it's funny -- the thread title is very vague, and has little indication of what this thread is all about, and yet I knew immediately.

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Why do none of the articles actually describe what Big Dig is?

It's the Massachusetts version of the Grand Canyon, only it's taking longer. Big Huge Colossal Fucking waste of taxpayer money. It's a big hole that we're all throwing our money down. And if you think it's just Massachusetts money, you're wrong -- there's federal funding going down The Big Hole, too. Of course, it's all for a good reason. It will relieve traffic snarls. Except, as experts predict, it won't.

[Ponder Stibbons]

All of the early "ads" for this thing showed idyllic pictures of how downtown Boston will look after this thing was done. You know, no more elevated eyesores, parks running through where highways used to be, and so forth. Did any of that come to fruition? Are there pictures?

[ElvisL1ves]

Not yet, the surface is still a construction site. [url=http://www.bigdig.com/thtml/corridor.htm]Here are some artists' renderings.

[LilyoftheValley]

Originally Posted by tdn

You know, it's funny -- the thread title is very vague, and has little indication of what this thread is all about, and yet I knew immediately.

Me too, me too. ::shakes head sadly::

It's the Massachusetts version of the Grand Canyon, only it's taking longer. Big Huge Colossal Fucking waste of taxpayer money. It's a big hole that we're all throwing our money down. And if you think it's just Massachusetts money, you're wrong -- there's federal funding going down The Big Hole, too. Of course, it's all for a good reason. It will relieve traffic snarls. Except, as experts predict, it won't.

Not to mention, it's a big hole that everyone in the state is throwing a lot of their money down. Including folks who go to Boston once a year, once a decade. While their bridges fall apart. Does Massachusetts exist outside the 495 belt?

***

Coincidentally, I happened to go through the Big Dig yesterday (which is funny because I drive to Boston less than once a year). I noticed that those "lovely" tiles inside the tunnel are already falling off. I can't imagine how much it cost to tile the whole damn tunnel, and it's already looking tacky.

[Debaser]

Another big dig fun fact: The estimated cost of the project was about 2 billion. The project ended up costing in excess of 15 billion.

Federal money was used to fund 75% of the project. So this project is ripping the whole country off.

[Rufus Xavier]

Originally Posted by Ponder Stibbons

All of the early "ads" for this thing showed idyllic pictures of how downtown Boston will look after this thing was done. You know, no more elevated eyesores, parks running through where highways used to be, and so forth. Did any of that come to fruition? Are there pictures?

My family and I just visited Boston for the first time (just a quickie, Oct. 10-11), and we liked it a lot, but BOY was driving around there expensive! I think we figured out we spent like $60 in car-related expenses (tolls and parking). $28 to park overnight at the hotel, $10 to park downtown the first night, $15 to park by the aquarium the next day, and about $8.00 in tolls for driving in from out of town and driving back and forth from the airport area. I like to think we did our little part to help defray the cost of the Big Dig.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Another big dig fun fact: The estimated cost of the project was about 2 billion. The project ended up costing in excess of 15 billion.

I wonder how much of the overrun was due to the site being flooded for several weeks in 2001. I don't think anyone knows the real monetary cost of that flood, the best they can do is estimate at least $41 million.

[ElvisL1ves]

A common practice in starting a big government program is to lowball the cost estimates, get it far enough along that it can't be stopped, and then adjust the budget to match reality. This has to be done in steps, of course.

Who among us truly believed in the 80's that the entire thing could be done for $5B, anyway?

[JohnBckWLD]

Billboards throughout Boston (c. 1999):
If Rome Was Built In A Day, We Would've Hired The Contractor

Proposed New Billboards (2004-2014):
We Must Have Infinite Faith In Public Works Projects & Never Let It Leak Out That We Don't

[tremorviolet]

Originally Posted by Sublight

The solution? Bury it all. Make a giant tunnel going under the city, and have I-93 go thataway. Of course, it's almost as hard to add a lane to a tunnel that's too narrow as it is an elevated highway.

Actually, it's harder and a lot more expensive to tunnel than to go up. Adding another lane will cost way more than extending a structure.

Now, this all sounds like pretty complicated work to me, but it doesn't sound 20 years and $20 billion complicated.

I dunno, that doesn't sound way off to me. Tunneling is insanely expensive and requires a lot more engineering than structures do. You only do it when it's a last resort which is what the Big Dig was, I guess.

But every huge, innovative engineering project is gonna have unexpected problems. It's pure hubris to think you can control and anticipate every aspect. And, historically, engineers have underestimated the realities of natural forces like water. Sublight is in Japan where they have their own version of the Big Dig: the Kansai Airport built on ground filled in on the bay which is sinking much faster than the experts anticipated.

But, I'm not saying the Big Dig wasn't mismanaged. For all I know, it may have been. (disclaimer: I work for a company associated with the Big Dig although I have no direct involvement or inside knowledge about the project) But, massive projects are always gonna be a lot more than originally planned, no matter what the experts say...

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by tremorviolet

I dunno, that doesn't sound way off to me. Tunneling is insanely expensive and requires a lot more engineering than structures do. You only do it when it's a last resort which is what the Big Dig was, I guess.

That reminds me, one tunnel had to be dug through soft soil which required them to essentially invent a new way to tunnel. They ended up circulating hundreds of gallons of supercooled saltwater through pipes embedded the soil, which caused the soil to freeze. They also had to ensure that nothing above ground was disturbed so the digging for that particular tunnel was done in such a way so that the tunnel boxes wouldn't push the soil upwards when moved into place.

cite

[ElvisL1ves]

Part of that problem was a series of misleading soil samples in the Fort Point Channel area, Bechtel, that required a complete redesign of it, to a series of prefab tubes that had to be sunk onto pilings that kept them above the Red Line subway tunnel.

The main portion of the roadway required another novel technique, pioneered in Germany, to allow it to be built directly under the existing freeway without shutting it down. Slurry walls were poured alongside the Artery into trenches, temporary bracing was placed under the Artery, the main supports were removed, and the new tunnel was dug between the slurry walls. That got expensive just from relocating all the downtown utilities around it.

The best joke about it, and about Gov. Mike Dukakis: Former MA Speaker Billy Bulger said "If Mike wants to depress the Central Artery, all he has to do is talk to it."

[badmana]

I hope our GTA city politicians are fucking listening to this shit. A few years ago people were talking about burying our Gardiner Express Way, citing that it was a big eye sore (6 lane raised highway) and that burying it would be the best way to go (and cost ~2 billion).

I even burst out laughing when one "traffic engineer" cited that traffic would be fine without the Gardiner. You know, the only one of two public highways spanning Toronto (north and south) that I take daily that STALLS both ways in the morning and evening.

I swear politicians should all be thrown in jail after their term is up to make up for all the shit they do

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves

The main portion of the roadway required another novel technique, pioneered in Germany, to allow it to be built directly under the existing freeway without shutting it down. Slurry walls were poured alongside the Artery into trenches, temporary bracing was placed under the Artery, the main supports were removed, and the new tunnel was dug between the slurry walls. That got expensive just from relocating all the downtown utilities around it.

Quite right. That was a veritable spiderweb of utilities they had to dig up and reolocate, some of them must have been at least a hundred years old.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

I never noticed there was so much partying going on in the alphabet!
BRAVO!

There's also:

GOLFing and HOTELs, and all your friends: CHARLIE, JULIET, MIKE, OSCAR, PAPPA, ROMEO, VICTOR, and that's not to mention all the ZULUs in UNIFORM!

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Originally Posted by Ponder Stibbons

All of the early "ads" for this thing showed idyllic pictures of how downtown Boston will look after this thing was done. You know, no more elevated eyesores, parks running through where highways used to be, and so forth. Did any of that come to fruition? Are there pictures?

No parks to speak of yet, at least not in the areas I pass through. But the view from North Station is now breath-taking. For the 50-plus years I've been entering Boston from that train station, there'd always been the great green hulking framework of the elevated highway and the dingy structure supporting the elevated railway filling the skyline between the station and downtown.

And now they're gone. Over the last couple of weeks the final segments have been torched apart, craned down, and removed. What had been a cramped street passing in front of the station is now a wide-open boulevard. The tangled clutter of steel that had dominated the near view beyond it is gone, leaving a clear view of the Custom House Tower and the skyscrapers of the Financial District.

Of course it's still messy, with construction laydown, debris piles, machinery parking in a large cleared area that once was under the Expressway. The vast expanse of pavement in front of North Station is chopped and scarred by the treads of construction machinery. The promised parks are still a good ways away.

BUT MY GOD WHAT A DIFFERENCE!

[Cisco]

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

My dad is gonna love that one.

[JamesCarroll]

Ah, the Big Dig. America's homage to the graft that drives the Democratic party.
Override Reagan's veto of this boondoggle, pay the unions tons of money, bail out a local government who had no foresight in the 60's. UGH!

Even one JF Kerry fed at this trough.

Gee, sure wish HE was gonna be Pres.

[rjung]

Could've been worse, could've been a Halliburton job.

[ralph124c]

James Carrol is right-the Democratic party in MA is hopelessly corrupt. The funding for the "Big Dig" was approved by Congress, during the reign of House Speaker Tip O'Neli..this guy was so corrupt that he openly went on junkets with guys from PERINI CoNSTRUCTION, Modern Continental, and other Big Dig contractors. President Reagan tried to veto the bill, but was overridden by His Majesty King Tip.
What's really going to be fun: in the coming years, as the unstable soil around the tunnel shifts, a lot of shyscraper foundations , sewr lines, etc., are going to be damaged. The Mass Turnpike (the political hack organization that runs the project) will likely have to pay out hundreds of millions in damage claims. This will mean that we'll be paying tolls on the Mass Turpike well into the NEXT century!
Anotherbit of MA history: this disaster never needed to be built..a certain Governor(Frank Sargent) vetoed the extension of Rt.95 into Boston (the City had already taken the land for the right-of-way)..this happened in the late 1960's. Extending Rt. 95 wouldhave taken allof the traffic load off the old expressway..but then. the democrats wouldn't have gotten all that graft (which was the main object of the Big Dig).

[ElvisL1ves]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

a certain Governor(Frank Sargent) vetoed the extension of Rt.95 into Boston (the City had already taken the land for the right-of-way)..this happened in the late 1960's. Extending Rt. 95 wouldhave taken allof the traffic load off the old expressway..but then. the democrats wouldn't have gotten all that graft (which was the main object of the Big Dig).

The Central Artery and Southeast Expressway were already there, kid. The I-95 / Innerbelt project (much more extensive than you're hinting) kept that damn ugly overhead freeway system from cutting across Roxbury, Allston/Brighton, Cambridge, Somerville, Revere, Lynn, and Peabody. It would not have alleviated the ugliness of the I-93 segment at all. It did, however, contribute to the still-present traffic nightmare on 128. Sargent was a Republican, yes, but don't be misled - he was a social liberal and one of the staunchest environmentalists of his time.

As eddy points out, the tunnelling part of the project was intended as a beautification project for the downtown area of a historic city - a history that included being one of the first to tear down an entire neighborhood in the name of urban renewal. The tunnelling started during the construction of the original Artery in the Fifties, too - once the true monstrosity of the North Station / Haymarket section was visible, it was redesigned to send at least the Financial District / Chinatown section underground. Remember the Dewey Square Tunnel? That's it. It's part of the new project as well, or will be when the rerouting and retiling are done.

The Turnpike extension through the Ted Williams Tunnel to Logan was simultaneous but really a separate project with separate goals, involving (as it was said then) "Untying the knot at the heart of New England's transportation system". It is now possible to go from west or south of Boston right to the airport without passing through the Artery or the old tunnels, and if you lived west or south you'd know how important that is. It also provides an access road from the South Boston waterfront, a pretty important addition if you're in the fresh seafood business.

O'Neill and virtually the entire New England congressional delegation made Fred Salvucci's plan happen, certainly, but you dismiss the reasons too ignorantly.

[Ale]

Originally Posted by tdn

You know, it's funny -- the thread title is very vague, and has little indication of what this thread is all about, and yet I knew immediately.

Me too.

Read my location and make of that what you´d like.

[Gatopescado]

Originally Posted by tdn

You know, it's funny -- the thread title is very vague, and has little indication of what this thread is all about, and yet I knew immediately.

I thought for a second it was about a Wilco album...................

[kniz]

<hijack>$14.6 Billion is also the amount that Saddam pocketed from the "Oil for Food" program thru smuggling. So I guess he'd say it is just pocket change. </hijack>

[Enderw24]

I was up in Boston for three days a little over two years ago. It was during a 5000 mile trip across the country and I can say with all certainty, the roads in that city were the worst I had experienced EVER.

Here are some of the fun things I encountered:

A toll road leading into a tunnel where there was absolutely no warning I would be entering a toll road until it was too late to stop.
Right after the toll lane (with 8 booths), you had to condense traffic down to 2 lanes within 100 feet. I don't think I'm exaggerating on the distance.
A muffler just sitting in the middle of the highway traffic had to weave around.
Construction everywhere. EVERYWHERE.
At some points, the highway just stopped. It was necessary to get off the highway and travel back through contruction infested streets to get onto the proper highway again.
Lack of signs and parking. I was to meet a fellow Doper at the Aquariums and, despite me being within a mile radius of the place, it took me a full hour (seriously, an hour) to figure out where this place was, what exit to take, and find parking.

Negotiating New York's streets was a walk in the park compared to Boston. But gosh...the Big Dig's white bridge sure does look purty.

On the plus side, I think by law they're required to put a Dunkin Donuts in the all the Dig's tunnels.

[Declan]

Originally Posted by badmana

I hope our GTA city politicians are fucking listening to this shit. A few years ago people were talking about burying our Gardiner Express Way, citing that it was a big eye sore (6 lane raised highway) and that burying it would be the best way to go (and cost ~2 billion).

The American Feds are picking up 75 % of the big dig , but can you really see Ottawa doing the same ?

I even burst out laughing when one "traffic engineer" cited that traffic would be fine without the Gardiner. You know, the only one of two public highways spanning Toronto (north and south) that I take daily that STALLS both ways in the morning and evening.

Sounds fine for pet causes , like making everyone take the TTC , by forcing people to leave their cars at home or designated subway stations and the like. But until you actually see concrete plans being made , remember this and other loony tunes ideas have been floating around ever since the spadina express way , and the lawrence freeway (can't remember the name off hand) were canceled back in the early seventies.

With the Feds and Queens park kicking money into extending the 404 up to hwy 69 ? , the 427 somewhere , and the 407 being extended in both directions, the money is just not going to be there , the only thing , is that this may be a green dream, with the short term promise of making a lot of money , only to suggest that maybe the damm thing would be cheaper by burying the whole kit and kaboodle and killing the gardiner that way.

The next twenty years in Toronto are going to be a mess though, with traffic, no question there.

I swear politicians should all be thrown in jail after their term is up to make up for all the shit they do

How long is it , another 3 years for mcsquinty ? too long by far.

Declan

[ralph124c]

Mass. Atty. General Tom Reilly has annouced that he will "get to the bottom of this mess"..now it turns out that he has accepted bribes (campaign "contributions") from all of the contractors who built the "Big Dig"! And, embatteled project manager Matt Amarillo (AKA Fat Matt) defiantly announces that the project is safe, and he will stay on!
Sen. Ted Kennedy was interviewed as well..looking befuddled (perhaps he had a few bad ice cubes)..looking like a deer in the headlights, Sen. Kennedy said that it was up to the contractors to correct the problems.
Well, here we have a major project that is fast becoming a disaster..and NOBODY is responsible!
The Turpike Authority employs 25 lawyers, the state has 800+, and literally miles of contracts have been signed..yet nobody knows WHO is responsible.
Perhaps the counsel should have counsel.
Buck up taxpayers! You areabout top get shafted once again!

[ElvisL1ves]

Listen to Howie Carr's show, do you?

[Ponder Stibbons]

Originally Posted by Enderw24

On the plus side, I think by law they're required to put a Dunkin Donuts in the all the Dig's tunnels.

Well, if that's not worth 14.6 gigabucks, I don't know what is.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Originally Posted by Enderw24

I was up in Boston for three days a little over two years ago. It was during a 5000 mile trip across the country and I can say with all certainty, the roads in that city were the worst I had experienced EVER.

Here are some of the fun things I encountered:

Well, let's look at this from a local's perspective:

A toll road leading into a tunnel where there was absolutely no warning I would be entering a toll road until it was too late to stop.

Hey, we have to raise revenue any way we can to pay for all this road work, you know?

Right after the toll lane (with 8 booths), you had to condense traffic down to 2 lanes within 100 feet. I don't think I'm exaggerating on the distance.

You know that passage in the Bible about the quick and the dead? And those Southern Baptists think us Northerners are all godless heathens! Plus, for the Darwinists among us, it's a stellar example of natural selection at work on the gene pool.

A muffler just sitting in the middle of the highway traffic had to weave around.

So, did YOU stop your car, leap out, and retrieve the offending item? I didn't think so. Road crews demand combat pay for removing stuff like that, ya know.

Construction everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

Naw, it only seemed like that. There are always isolated pockets of peaceful inactivity, if you know where to look. Like out in the Berkshires.

At some points, the highway just stopped. It was necessary to get off the highway and travel back through contruction infested streets to get onto the proper highway again.

Well, hell -- try building a new superhighway directly underneath the old one, running through the heart of a city whose downtown streets were mostly laid out in Colonial times, and see how you do. At least you didn't have to leap your car across the gaps.

Lack of signs and parking. I was to meet a fellow Doper at the Aquariums and, despite me being within a mile radius of the place, it took me a full hour (seriously, an hour) to figure out where this place was, what exit to take, and find parking.

Street signs? Those are for wimps. If you don't know how to get where you want to go, what are you doing here anyway?

Negotiating New York's streets was a walk in the park compared to Boston. But gosh...the Big Dig's white bridge sure does look purty.

Yeh, it looks even purtier now that most of the construction is done and you can get a good look at it. Skyline's looking mighty fine, too, from a bunch of new perspectives. And the Red Sox beat the Yankees, nyah nyah nyah!

On the plus side, I think by law they're required to put a Dunkin Donuts in the all the Dig's tunnels.

No, only on every second street corner. It's the McDonald's that own the tunnel rights.