(Appearent) Execution of Margaret Hassan by Iraqi insurgents: Reaction?

[XT]

I haven't seen a thread on this, and its not exactly recent news so thought I'd start one. Appearently one of the things captured in Fallujah was several DvD's showing various people being executed...including (appearently) director of CARE International (in Iraq) 59-year-old Margaret Hassan.

I'm curious why no thread on this exists to be honest. Are we so numbed to random acts of cruelty and violence in Iraq that the senseless execution of an unarmed, blindfolded civilian doesn't even get a rise out of us? Appearently not, since I got a pretty heated response to my Ouch thread about the slaying of an insurgent by a US marine.

So, for debate: What effect (if any) will this most recent slaying of an unarmed (and FEMALE this time) civilian have on the world community? What reaction? What effect will it have on muslims in general and Iraqi's in particular (again, if any)? Was this slaying justified due to the struggle of the Iraqi (and friends) insurgency? Will it help their cause? Do you feel that this slaying is comparable to the slaying of an insurgent (albiet appearently wounded and disarmed) by a US serviceman in the assault on Fallujah?

Extra points if you can tell me why there is/was no thread on this (unless I'm mistaken and I missed it of course).

Oh...a story. Since I know how much everyone here loves Fox I've chosen them for my OP link (even though AP ran the same story). Cheers!

-XT

[Kimstu]

Didn't you see the Pit thread(s)? I think most people probably concurred that the event was more worthy of a Pitting than a debate, though of course there's nothing wrong with your launching a debate over it either.

[XT]

I never really go to the pit unless someone links a roast of some member into a thread I'm involved in (or my one shinning moment when someone actually bothers pitting me ). I guess I should have said...why weren't there any GD threads on it?

-XT

[esquimalt]

X

Tough to find anything to debate about, unfortunatly her murder has gotten lost in all the uproar about the Marine killing the insurgent. Very sad.

[gum]

There's even a thread in General Questions about her death.

I know the average Iraqi is as shocked and disgusted as we are. I saw some interviews on TV.

[Malodorous]

No thread in GD (well, one actually) because everyones pretty much on the same page about it. Can't really debate if everyone agrees. It's also not unexpected or the first time (or sadly the second, third, etc.) something like this has happend, so neither the outcome or reactions are very interesting debates.

Still, I'll go out on a limb and say that the taking and killing of hostages is despicable, we shouldn't negotiate for thier release, hopefully the Iraqi people will not support hostage takers, and it's particularly tragic when its a women and a aid worker.

Anyone want to debate?

[Blalron]

Originally Posted by esquimalt

X

Tough to find anything to debate about, unfortunatly her murder has gotten lost in all the uproar about the Marine killing the insurgent. Very sad.

We expect the insurgents to act barbaric. But if its our own men that are senselessly murdering helpless victims that's an even bigger cause for concern. We are supposed to have the moral highground.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Blalron

We expect the insurgents to act barbaric. But if its our own men that are senselessly murdering helpless victims that's an even bigger cause for concern. We are supposed to have the moral highground.

I guess I hadn't realized we were a different species. I thought we were human...and so were they.

I guess there really is not debate here (unfortunately). We can close this one down.

-XT

[uglybeech]

well here's a reasonable gd question for this: why?

i mean even in the most twisted ideology-crazed-ends-justify-the-means-morality-doesn't-apply-to-me-god-will-smite-mine-enemies-and-i can-do-no-wrong universe this still doesn't make sense. This alienated not just the whole world, but pretty much all their potential allies, didn't it?

It's just such a totally nihilistic action. Don't even terrorists want to create goodwill and allies among their own people? I was just listening to an interview with Jessica Stein on CSPAN who said that an important part of most terrorist groups is the charity work they do at home to consolidate support at home.

Well that makes me think - maybe that makes aid workers their biggest competition/threat. Maybe that's why.

I don't know. Maybe evil is just evil. Maybe it's the heart of darkness effect.

Discuss.

If you can stomach it.

[Reeder]

Thank you GWB.

Without him. She would still be alive.

[El_Kabong]

So, for debate: What effect (if any) will this most recent slaying of an unarmed (and FEMALE this time) civilian have on the world community?

Pretty much universal revulsion, but the OP could have determined that by simply following current news reports, or checking out the many threads that have been posted on this general subject since the first such execution was publicized months ago, rather than asking that question here.

What effect will it have on muslims in general and Iraqi's in particular (again, if any)?

Again revulsion, as borne out by news reports and informal discussion with several of the muslim employees of the company I work for. Also, since the OP apparently has severely limited access to news sources, said revulsion extends to a considerable portion of the Iraqi population. I somehow doubt, however, that htis would automatically grant a free pass for continued brutal behavior by US military forces.

Was this slaying justified due to the struggle of the Iraqi (and friends) insurgency?

Of course not, and I seriously doubt you would find any single person on this board who would ever argue such.

Do you feel that this slaying is comparable to the slaying of an insurgent (albiet appearently wounded and disarmed) by a US serviceman in the assault on Fallujah?

No, and again I doubt anyone here would argue such. Now, since we're asking absurdly simplistic questions, here's one for for the OP: do things like the televised execution of a wounded, unarmed combatant, or referring, as the US military seems to be doing at the moment, to every single Iraqi killed in Fallujah as 'insurgents' enhance or worsen the 'world community's opinion of the US?

If the answer is 'worsen', I suspect we've also found the answer to the question about world opinion concerning the parties that carried out the Hassan killing, which as I'm sure anyone here would say, is a more heinous and unjustified crime. If the OP disagrees, I welcome specific factual evidence that this is not the case.

There. Not much of a debate, I know, but those were, frankly, piss-poor questions on which to build one.

Extra points if you can tell me why there is/was no thread on this

Why, to give the OP a chance to feel morally superior to everyone else on this board, of course. Obviously, rending one's garment in front of a bunch of strangers is very important to some people, so why should we spoil the chance for them to show how much more caring they are than everyone else here?

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by uglybeech

well here's a reasonable gd question for this: why?

That is a decent GD question.

Hostage taking seems to be a somewhat effective tactic, it chased Bangledesh from the coalition, chased away CARE, chased out Turkish companies doing work for the coalition and has probably made other organizations and nations much more cautious about getting involved. Chasing out aid organizations makes life tougher for Iraqis, which makes them less likely to support the US occupation, while chasing out companies and countries working for the coalition further extends the work the already stressed US forces have to do and further lessens the occupations claim to international support. Finally, it's suspected to be a revenue stream for the insurgents, as several organizations are suspected of paying bribes to get thier people released.

Of course the downside (if your an insurgent) is the bad PR of killing helpless captives, especially in this most recent case where they killed an Iraqi doing aid work. One would like to think this would alientate the populace, but really if the other forms of indiscriminate attack haven't alienated the people from the insurgency, these targeted individual killings are unlikely to. I also think that perhaps these killings are less shocking to a society used to public execution then to us westerners who are accostumed to rare, relativly humane death sentences carried out after much deliberation.

[BwanaBob]

Originally Posted by Reeder

Thank you GWB.

Without him. She would still be alive.

Ridiculous:

you should have said "Thank you terrorist scumbags, without you Ms. Hassan would still be alive."

Come on, how dare you justify any terrorist act? Are you saying because GWB acted foolishly that every attrocity that occurs in Iraq is his fault? Grow up.

The only person responsible for her death is her killer.

If I had the time to waste I would pit you.

[tagos]

Originally Posted by BwanaBob

Ridiculous:

you should have said "Thank you terrorist scumbags, without you Ms. Hassan would still be alive."

Come on, how dare you justify any terrorist act? Are you saying because GWB acted foolishly that every attrocity that occurs in Iraq is his fault? Grow up.

The only person responsible for her death is her killer.

If I had the time to waste I would pit you.

Absolutely. The responsibility for the death of a person is the responsibility of those weilding the knife, pulling the trigger or dropping the bomb. Or those that ordered it.

This principle of course also applies to blaming insurgents or wedding parties for air strike 'collateral damage'.

[Walker in Eternity]

My reation to the whole event is horror and revulsion.

I also think that everyone should avoid watching footage of the execution, by watching it we encourage media attention of the likes of Al Jazeera and thus mena that the events will be repeated.

As an addtional piece of news, I heard on BBC Radio 4 news today that a mutilated body of a woman had been recovered, but that it had not be confirmed as Margaret Hassan's.

If it is it shows the complete lack of regard these people show for any of the values of civilised people. (By this I mean the specific murderers and not iraqis in general).

[BobLibDem]

This all reminds me of the scene in Apocalypse Now where Col. Kurtz describes how the Viet Cong would hack off the arms of vaccinated children. In a perverse way, they are stronger because they are willing to use horror and all we can do is wonder how they can do it.

[TLC1]

What's to debate? What idiotic moron would think there are two sides here? An innocent woman who meant nothing but good was brutally murdered by semi-human "COCKROACHES".

[TLC1]

Originally Posted by Reeder

Thank you GWB.

Without him. She would still be alive.

This twisted logic that you espouse is not realistic in the least. Are your views of reality really that simple?

[TLC1]

Originally Posted by tagos

Absolutely. The responsibility for the death of a person is the responsibility of those weilding the knife, pulling the trigger or dropping the bomb. Or those that ordered it.

This principle of course also applies to blaming insurgents or wedding parties for air strike 'collateral damage'.

Blame Blame Blame Blame Solves everything doesn't it!!

[jjimm]

Reaction? Universal disgust.

A memorial service was held for her in Kerry, Ireland, where much of her family still live. The scenes on the TV news were heartbreaking.

[tagos]

Originally Posted by TLC1

Blame Blame Blame Blame Solves everything doesn't it!!

I've no idea what you're on about but no matter.

An interesting question is:

Who killed Hassan?

Iraqi authorities yesterday admitted they still had no clear idea about who killed the aid worker Margaret Hassan. Investigators are being hindered by the uniqueness of the case, and the complexity of the insurgency.

Her kidnappers were unmoved. At one point they threatened to hand her over to Tawhid and Jihad, the extreme militant group based in Falluja that is led by a young Iraqi named Omar Hadid and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the wanted Jordanian militant.

But Tawhid and Jihad, which has produced several videos of gruesome murders including that of Ken Bigley, the British contractor, promised to release Mrs Hassan if she was handed over to them.

So even the mad-dogs wanted her freed.

It is most likely she was captured by a radical Sunni Islamic group, since they form the core of the violent guerrilla movement that has fought the US occupation.

Canon Andrew White, of Coventry Cathedral and the international director of the Iraqi Institute of Peace, was involved in negotiations to obtain Mrs Hassan's release. He said that "rogue terrorist groups" had begun to emerge and that her kidnappers were "very likely criminal".

One day these people will face justice.

[El_Kabong]

This twisted logic that you espouse is not realistic in the least. Are your views of reality really that simple?

TLC1, since I realize you probably haven't seen many of the threads lunched by that particular poster, I'll just say "Yep".

[El_Kabong]

er, launched, that is.

[MMI]

Originally Posted by xtisme

I guess I hadn't realized we were a different species. I thought we were human...and so were they.

I guess there really is not debate here (unfortunately). We can close this one down.

-XT

If we reach the point at which we are all the same species, at which the only discernable difference between US troops and terrorists is the flags under which we fight then, in the most serious, most literal, most accurate way, the terrorists have already won.

[Mbossa]

Originally Posted by tagos

An interesting question is:

Who killed Hassan?

That is an interesting point, and one that I was about to bring up.

I reckon it was a group of al-Zarqawi wannabes. They wanted to kidnap a foreigner and send them on to Tawhid and Jihad in order prove that they are worthy to join their prestigious group. But then they thought, "hey, if the person we kidnap is famous, then Tawhid and Jihad will really be able to stick it to the world! Al-Zarqawi will love us! Yeah, let's kidnap a famous person!"

Hassan was a likely candidate. She was quite well-known in Iraq (cite), and what's more, she was of foreign descent. Perfect! So they plotted and carried out the kidnapping and offered her to Tawhid and Jihad.

But Tawhid and Jihad's goal is to gain power in Iraq. To gain power, they need the support of a lot of people in Iraq. They are killing soldiers and contractors because many Iraqi people see them as the invaders. But Hassan wasn't a soldier or a contractor -- she a full citizen who had been living in Iraq for over 30 years. What's more, people in Iraq loved her. If they killed her, they certainly wouldn't gain any support, and would likely lose a lot. So Tawhid and Jihad told our anonymous little group, "naw, we don't want 'er. You best put 'er back where you done found 'er."

So all the effort the group took to kidnap her was in vain. They were pissed! They were so angry that they slipped into a child-like temper tantrum. "You can't tell me what to do!! You're not the boss of me!! I'm gonna kill her anyway!! How do you like that?!"

Well, that's my wacky theory, anyway.

[Rashak Mani]

I think killing Hassan was just about the stupidest thing Zarqawi has done... killing americans is all fine and dandy with the Iraqis. Killing an Iraqi national (she was married to one) and especially someone from CARE... and a woman !

It does show that both sides aren't that bright about how they handle violence... and do not fanthom the political consequences.

( I sure hope her death is a false report... )

[holmes]

Originally Posted by Mbossa

...So all the effort the group took to kidnap her was in vain. They were pissed! They were so angry that they slipped into a child-like temper tantrum. "You can't tell me what to do!! You're not the boss of me!! I'm gonna kill her anyway!! How do you like that?!"

Okay, then why hack her up? To prove how scary tough they are?

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by holmes

Okay, then why hack her up? To prove how scary tough they are?

Maybe just to help dispose of the corpse, though desecrating the body of your enemy is a sign of disdain and hatred that goes back at least as far as the Iliad.

[XT]

<rant alert>

So, to recap here...a US marine shoots an insurgent in a combat zone and it gets 4 pages of mostly rants against said young marine, though we all know that this will be investigated and if found guilty said marine will face punishment.

An innocent woman is murdered by these same insurgent (along with countless other innocent civilians based on the DvD's found at the 'slaughterhouses' throughout Fallujah...were said insurgent was killed by the marine) and this rates a few half hearted 'well, thats really bad' posts, and a few that ask who killed her (not sure what the implication of the original poster on this tact had but I have my own guess).

And I'm told basically that of course everyone knows that these insurgents are animals and do these kinds of things...and that the US is held to a higher standard (and we hold ourselves to a higher standard). Ok....I buy that to a certain extent. It still smacks of a double standard to me...and an out of wack double standard to boot. The US is held to an unattainably high standard (i.e. our troops aren't expected, or appearently allowed, to be human), and these insurgents are given a pass because they aren't expected to act like humans, being as they are some kind of subspecies or something.

A US soldier kills a fellow enemy combatant in a combat zone. A US soldier who is obviously under the stress of combat. Yes, he may have done wrong. Yes, its something that we, as Americans, don't feel good about. But come on...the vitriol in that thread was thick enough to spread, the knee jerk jumping to automatically try and convict the man without all the facts set new speed records. And I notice the world has jumped on board in condemning both the marine and the US has been fairly heated...to say the least.

On the other hand we have a woman who is an aid worker in Iraq...striving and devoting her life to helping the Iraqi people. She is captured, though she has exactly zero to do with the war, taken to one of these 'slaughterhouses' by basically thugs, held in captivity...and eventually blindfolded and executed. For absolutely no reason at all.

Where is the outrage? Where are the strident denounciations of this behavior? Where is the understanding for a young US marine who if fighting these kinds of people? Where is the praise for the US for taking out Fallujah...a nest of these kinds of people?

Ok, my rant is over. This test of the emergency fairness system of the SDMB is over. Had this been an actual fair and balanced look at these two issues the OP would have dropped over dead on the spot. Thanks for your participation.

-XT

[furt]

You assumed that people would see the moral difference between evil deeds happening in the pursuit of good ends and evil deeds happening in the pursuit of evil ends. That was erroneous.

You also assumed that people would be able to recognize evil. That also was erroneous.

[Donovan]

OK, I'm guilty as charged. I do hold a double standard. I wasn't involved with any discussion or pitting of the marine, but I am definitely troubled by the killing. I guess I kind of expect that behavior (kidnapping and killing of innocents) from the groups kidnapping foriegners, but then again I consider them to be criminals. Kind of like if I hear about some criminal walking into a bank, shooting the security gaurd, and taking money, I think 'I hope they catch that bastard'. If I hear my dad did the same thing, I would be much more emotional and upset. I guess I wouldn't shed any tears if I heard the murderers or Hassan were gunned down like dogs, but I don't think the marine should meet the same fate. Still, the fact that the 'good guys' did that bothers me immensely. I want to think of us as the good guys, but actions like that make it harder to do so. So I am more upset over the killing by the marine.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Donovan

OK, I'm guilty as charged. I do hold a double standard. I wasn't involved with any discussion or pitting of the marine, but I am definitely troubled by the killing. I guess I kind of expect that behavior (kidnapping and killing of innocents) from the groups kidnapping foriegners, but then again I consider them to be criminals. Kind of like if I hear about some criminal walking into a bank, shooting the security gaurd, and taking money, I think 'I hope they catch that bastard'. If I hear my dad did the same thing, I would be much more emotional and upset. I guess I wouldn't shed any tears if I heard the murderers or Hassan were gunned down like dogs, but I don't think the marine should meet the same fate. Still, the fact that the 'good guys' did that bothers me immensely. I want to think of us as the good guys, but actions like that make it harder to do so. So I am more upset over the killing by the marine.

I understand...and even agree to a certain degree. We SHOULD be held (and hold ourselves) to a higher standard. And we DO...after all, this came out immediately (i.e. it wasn't censored in any way), and its being investigated by our military.

But to my mind its a hugely unfair double standard...one situation was a COMBAT situation involving a stressed out KID who 'murdered' a fellow combatant in a tense situation. The other was premeditated and cold blooded murder of a WOMAN...and a woman who was not only a non-combatant but someone who was there to frigging HELP the Iraqi's. And yet I see a hell of a lot more rantage both here and on the internet about this marine than I see about this poor woman.

Originally Posted by Furt

You assumed that people would see the moral difference between evil deeds happening in the pursuit of good ends and evil deeds happening in the pursuit of evil ends. That was erroneous.

Well, nothing new me making erroneous assertions.

-XT

[Si Amigo]

Originally Posted by Rashak Mani

I think killing Hassan was just about the stupidest thing Zarqawi has done... killing americans is all fine and dandy with the Iraqis. Killing an Iraqi national (she was married to one) and especially someone from CARE... and a woman !

It does show that both sides aren't that bright about how they handle violence... and do not fanthom the political consequences.

( I sure hope her death is a false report... )

I agree. Killing her was the most politically inept move that Zarqawi has commited yet. Did he really think that killing her was going to win him the hearts and minds of the Iraqis? He is getting desparate and will soon make his last mistake.

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by xtisme

So, to recap here...a US marine shoots an insurgent in a combat zone and it gets 4 pages of mostly rants against said young marine, though we all know that this will be investigated and if found guilty said marine will face punishment.

It seems somewhat ironic that you critisize people for being more fixated on this marine then on the murder of Ms. Hassan when its fairly obvious that in this thread you really wanted to focus attention on the fixatation on the marine, and didn't give a carp about discussing the murder of Ms. Hassan.

An innocent woman is murdered by these same insurgent (along with countless other innocent civilians based on the DvD's found at the 'slaughterhouses' throughout Fallujah...were said insurgent was killed by the marine) and this rates a few half hearted 'well, thats really bad' posts

And a four page pit thread and a thread in General Questions, as was pointed out in the second post of this thread. The meaning and guilt or innocence of thse involved involved in the mosque shooting is debatable, so there's a long thread about it in Great Debates. Everyone agrees about the meaning of the murder of Ms. Hassan, so threads on this subject are in the pit. None the less, when you started this thread, several people made an effort to find some interesting related topics to debate. I speculated on what the goals of the hostage takers were and the signifigence of the mutilation of her body, there was the always annoying but inevitible debate about whether it was Bush's fault or not, and most interestingly tagos chimed in with the interesting fact that unlike most hostage killings, Zarqawi has apparently not claimed responsibility, which you responded to by making shady insinuations about his motive:

....and a few that ask who killed her (not sure what the implication of the original poster on this tact had but I have my own guess).

My guess for tagos's motive was trying to save your trainwreck of an OP with actual information and a topic to debate. The article he links to actually tells us something about Ms. Hassan's captors, and about the insurgency in general. If you wanted to debate the supposed double standard by which the marine and the insurgents are held, then perhaps you should have stated so clearly in the OP instead of offering a free for all "lets discuss Ms. Hassan's killing" thread, then blowing by all of the posts people wrote to actually discuss issues related to the killing so you could have your sanctimonious moment of "Where Is The Outrage!!".

The US is held to an unattainably high standard (i.e. our troops aren't expected, or appearently allowed, to be human), and these insurgents are given a pass because they aren't expected to act like humans, being as they are some kind of subspecies or something.

No one gives the insurgents a free pass. We are actively trying to kill them with bombs. They act like we expect, but its not like anyone is saying that makes it OK, we're saying that their punishment is not debatable, while the punishment of the marine is.

I agree a few posters in the marine thread (well Diogenes, anyway) were taking their fustrations at what they see as an unjust war out on the marine, and were far too eager to condemn him. But the place to critisize this is in that thread, not start a "trick" thread about Ms. Hassan so that you can rag us all out about not being outraged enough.

Where is the outrage? Where are the strident denounciations of this behavior? Where is the understanding for a young US marine who if fighting these kinds of people?

The outrage for Ms. Hassan is in the pit thread about her murder. The understanding for the marine is in the Great Debate thread about his actions. Where is the point of this thread?

[XT]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

The outrage for Ms. Hassan is in the pit thread about her murder. The understanding for the marine is in the Great Debate thread about his actions. Where is the point of this thread?

So, if there is a pit thread on it that pretty much fully releases the outrage on an issue? I assume there must not have been a pit thread on the marine shooting then.

I guess there really is no point to this thread (your description of a train wreck was accurate) as it hasn't gone the way I had hoped. Basically I was looking for some reactions to the events, and some comparison and contrast to the marine shooting...but mostly I wanted to talk about this womans death and then got peeved when no one really wanted to talk about it (thus my rant earlier). My bad. The thread can sink into obscurity as a failure on my part for not being able to articulate what I was looking for and for lack of interest.

-XT

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by xtisme

Where is the outrage? Where are the strident denounciations of this behavior? Where is the understanding for a young US marine who if fighting these kinds of people? Where is the praise for the US for taking out Fallujah...a nest of these kinds of people?

For me - and maybe a lot of others - the reaction is pure speechlessness. I honestly can't form words on it; nothing seems right. I can put it all together, I just can't express a reaction.

It literally boggles my mind. It's much like 9/11 for me - I couldn't and still can't get angry, because I can't even process the mechanics of how it could happen, let alone react put it all together and react to it.

The soldier? I'm upset with his actions because he's one of ours, and he's supposed to be doing his best. I can understand his mistake, but he's got to pay for it too.

[Malodorous]

Sorry about the overly long rant. The "Where is the Outrage" attitude gets to me, as I think the last thing that this forum needs is more outrage, whether about Iraq, the election or any other hot button topics. I didn't mean to question your sincerity in wanting to discuss the hostage killing.

That said, I think your wrong in saying that no one wants to discuss the hostage's murder. As I said before, several folks have chimed in with interesting (if perhaps not adaquately outraged) posts. It's easier to see if you skip the usual blabber posts about whether it's Bush's fault or not. tagos's link, especially was news to me, anyways, as I think it makes clear that this hostage killing happend outside of the control of Zarqawi.

I think this is interesting because it suggests:
1. How uncentralized the insurgency is becoming.
2. Zarqawi didn't want this women killed, and thus presumably does have some sort of sense of managing his PR inside Iraq.
3. That tactic of using the execution of hostages is spreading to other groups

[Avenger]

Originally Posted by Rashak Mani

I think killing Hassan was just about the stupidest thing Zarqawi has done... killing americans is all fine and dandy with the Iraqis. Killing an Iraqi national (she was married to one) and especially someone from CARE... and a woman !

It does show that both sides aren't that bright about how they handle violence... and do not fanthom the political consequences.

( I sure hope her death is a false report... )

Erm, didn't we already establish that Zarqawi didn't do it? Or, at the least, there is no evidence connecting him or his group to it?

[tagos]

Originally Posted by Si Amigo

I agree. Killing her was the most politically inept move that Zarqawi has commited yet. Did he really think that killing her was going to win him the hearts and minds of the Iraqis? He is getting desparate and will soon make his last mistake.

Read my link. He wanted her released. He, in this particular instance, isn't the murdering scumbag.

[Malodorous]

Another aid group has announced it's pulling out of Iraq. link

The attacks on aid organizations certainly seem to be having an effect. The BBC says the organization pulling out today was "one of the last". Even the intrepid Red Cross has pulled its international members out of the country and won't enter Fallujah because it can't get the insurgents to guarentee thier safety.

These aid organizations are an important tool for winning the hearts and minds, so I imagine expelling them is a victory for the insurgents and a sign that their hostage taking, bombings and assasinations are having effects other then just pissing off their fellow Iraqis.

[Si Amigo]

Sorry, but your link doesn't prove to me that he wasn't involved. Just that he didn't want to associated with it. It's easy to have your buddies commit a crime, pretend that they don't know you, and claim that you were outraged by thier actions. Of course they didn't cut off her head on video so it must not have been him! Please. . .

The fact that they did not give a reason for picking her out and where unwilling to release her just tells me that they didn't want it tied to him.

[tagos]

Originally Posted by Si Amigo

Sorry, but your link doesn't prove to me that he wasn't involved. Just that he didn't want to associated with it. It's easy to have your buddies commit a crime, pretend that they don't know you, and claim that you were outraged by thier actions. Of course they didn't cut off her head on video so it must not have been him! Please. . .

The fact that they did not give a reason for picking her out and where unwilling to release her just tells me that they didn't want it tied to him.

How about you proving he was involved then?

[Malodorous]

Yeah, but its not like Zarqawi is shy about taking the blame for hostage killings. The article doesn't explicitly say so, but I belive that this is the first killing unclaimed by any established group.

Hostage taking is something you do if you want to maximize the attention given to killings. If Zarqawi wanted to kill Hassin without the bad press of taking her hostage, he could have had her assasinated as has been done to the heads of other aid organizations, who later decided to pull out.

Also note that from the beginning the kidnappers didn't identify themselves, they weren't suddenly suprised by the bad publicity and decided to try and confuse their identitiy after the fact.

Your right none of this proves Zarqawi wasn't involved. Applying logic to religious fanatics is always a dicey business. But this really doesn't fit his MO, and I think the evidence is heavily in favor of this having been a new group.

[Si Amigo]

Well he is the known killer/terroist in the region. Why should he be discounted from the list of suspects? It could benifit him to have people believe that there is a wider movement than just him and his followers. He is a terrorist after all, he doesn't have to be predictable. The killing of Hassan sends a message that even people who are considered off limits to his particular jihad are still at risk, even though he may still be pulling the strings.
I can't believe that anybody would give this SOB the benifit of a doubt.

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by Si Amigo

Well he is the known killer/terroist in the region.

If only he were the only one. There are several loosely allied groups. He's the one whose name we know, mainly because of his association with OBL.

Why should he be discounted from the list of suspects? It could benifit him to have people believe that there is a wider movement than just him and his followers.

Could be, but in the past they seem to have tried to claim credit. There are very few unclaimed terrorist acts historically (Al-Queda doesn't usually claim responsibility, but usually has distinctive simultanious bombings by which it identifies itself), and often more then one group tries to take credit.

He is a terrorist after all, he doesn't have to be predictable. The killing of Hassan sends a message that even people who are considered off limits to his particular jihad are still at risk, even though he may still be pulling the strings.

Maybe, he is a religious fanatic, who knows what he thinks Allah is telling him to do this week. Kill people and deny it, kill people in alphabetical order, who knows. Still, even insane serial killers have MO's, and its usually a good method to track their actions by.

I can't believe that anybody would give this SOB the benifit of a doubt.

Well, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, I'm a cold, calculating machine incapable of outrage. But seriously, it's not like we're defending Zarqawi (he's certainly responsible for enough murders already to hang him for in any case), but it's worthwhile to try and understand the various factions inside the insurgency. If the kidnappers are a bunch of loosely allied groups rather then under the sway of one single master, that's worth knowing. I haven't lived through many wars, but I get the sense that this one is unique in how little the general public understands our enemies, their organization, their motivations or their tactics.