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  #1  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:22 PM
saluki_fan saluki_fan is offline
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unlucky hands of poker

I was playing poker over thanksgiving break and I made a comment about a dead man's hand. Now I know that there is a hand in poker, perhaps not known as a deadman's hand, but something; I just can't think of what it is. The guys around the table laughed and thought I was stupid, so please help me prove them wrong. I believe the legend goes something like a person got a good hand and then right before he laid it down he was shot (or something along those lines). Am I just imagining this, or did this really happen and there is a hand out there that is known to be unlucky?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:32 PM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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The "Deadman's Hand" is supposed to be Aces over Eights. Wild Bill Hickok was supposedly shot while hold it. I believe that the story is apocryphal.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:33 PM
Crimmsy Crimmsy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki_fan
I was playing poker over thanksgiving break and I made a comment about a dead man's hand. Now I know that there is a hand in poker, perhaps not known as a deadman's hand, but something; I just can't think of what it is. The guys around the table laughed and thought I was stupid, so please help me prove them wrong. I believe the legend goes something like a person got a good hand and then right before he laid it down he was shot (or something along those lines). Am I just imagining this, or did this really happen and there is a hand out there that is known to be unlucky?

Thanks.
The Dead Man's Hand is the hand that Wild Bill Hickok was allegedly holding when he was shot on 2 Aug 1876.

The Master speaketh

Another cite
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:35 PM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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Oh, here's a link to a quesion on Ask.com:

Quote:
According to legend, this was the hand Wild Bill Hickok was holding on August 2, 1876 at the Saloon No. 10 in Deadwood, South Dakota, when he was shot in the back of the head and killed, hence the name.
I'd wager it's been discussed here at least once, and wouldn't be surprised if Cecil's taken a crack at it.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:40 PM
jimpatro jimpatro is offline
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Also, the fifth card is the 2 of spades, otherwise it's not a "true" Deadman's Hand.
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:45 PM
filmyak filmyak is offline
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It's two pairs, aces over 8's. And the story is absolutely true (or so I've heard). Heh. Anyway it was Wild Bill Hickock's hand right before he got shot.

Googled it and found this:

http://www.robohoo.com/poker_26.html

This site says the story is legend, but I've heard it as confirmed in many other places. YMMV.

Also:

http://www.pokernews.info/pokerterms...mans-hand.html

Two pair - Aces and Eights (The hand Wild Bill Hickock was holding when Jack McCall shot him in the back).
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:48 PM
filmyak filmyak is offline
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Crap, I replied and all of a sudden there were 5 other ones. =)

As for the 5th card, no one knows for sure what it was. See previous link for possible options.
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2004, 08:53 PM
Tammi Terrell Tammi Terrell is offline
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Beware the Dead Man's Hand . . .

Quote:
[As reported in Western Folklore 10: 178, 1951.]

The Eugene, Oregon, Register-Guard has this story, date-lined Vancouver, B.C., December 20, 1950:

William Holma, 63, looked at his poker hand Tuesday night at the Broadway Social Club and slumped over the table. He held the traditional Chisolm cattle trail "dead manís hand" -- three eights and a pair of aces. He died a few hours later in the hospital. The winning hand was worth $10.62.
Worse yet, it was worth $10.62 Canadian.

-- Tammi Terrell
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:32 AM
samclem samclem is offline
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Since this one is about a question that Cecil covered, let's move it to CoCC.

samclem GQ moderator
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:48 AM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmyak
It's two pairs, aces over 8's.
It's aces and eights. Aces over eights would be a full house.
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  #11  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:55 AM
samclem samclem is offline
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Sorry to disappoint everyone(including Cecil), but there is absolutely NO proof about any of the cards in Wild Bill's hand. None. Not about any of the cards.

There are NO contemporary accounts concerning the shooting that mention the cards. Hickock's biographer, Rosa, said in his 1974 book something to the effect of "the identity of the cards is in dispute." Cecil wrote his column before Rosa's book.

Hickock was killed in 1876. The oldest print reference to " a dead man's hand" in cards is in 1888, and it indeed said "aces and eights" but said nothing about the origin of the phrase.

Another cite from 1891
Quote:
I have drawn a pair of sevens. I now hold jacks full on red sevens. It is a fatal hand. No one ever yet held it and left the card table alive. ....
1895
Quote:
Finally Cherokee said:'I ain't aimin' to invest Wolfville in no superstitious fears, but I jest chronicles as a current event how I was
settin' into a little porker [sic] last night an' three times straight I
picks up "the hand the dead man held" -- jacks up on eights, an' it win
every time.'
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  #12  
Old 12-14-2004, 09:50 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
It's aces and eights. Aces over eights would be a full house.
No, aces full of eights would be a full house.
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  #13  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:46 AM
RM Mentock RM Mentock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
No, aces full of eights would be a full house.
As InvisibleWombat said, Aces Over Eights is a full house. The "over" order distinguishes it from Eights Over Aces, which is a weaker full house.
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  #14  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:54 AM
don't ask don't ask is offline
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unlucky hands of poker

It's AA and the idiot who calls all in with 2 4 off proceeds to flop 442.
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:57 AM
RM Mentock RM Mentock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don't ask
It's AA and the idiot who calls all in with 2 4 off proceeds to flop 442.
except when the turn and river are A and A
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  #16  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:59 AM
RM Mentock RM Mentock is offline
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turn OR river
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  #17  
Old 12-16-2004, 08:37 PM
Duke Duke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
No, aces full of eights would be a full house.
Quote:
As InvisibleWombat said, Aces Over Eights is a full house. The "over" order distinguishes it from Eights Over Aces, which is a weaker full house.
Stop--apparently, you're both right. I was all about to weigh in on Otto's side, when I went looking for cites and found many conflicting definitions:

From PokerNews Info:
Quote:
Aces Over
1) Pairs, one of which is aces. 2) A full house with aces over any pair.
From Westside Poker Club:
Quote:
The river brought another A, flipping his full to Aces full of eights.
These cites were only two of literally dozens of references to a hand of A-A-A-8-8 as alternatively "Aces full of eights" and "Aces over eights." Guess there's no solid answer here.
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  #18  
Old 12-16-2004, 09:47 PM
Manduck Manduck is offline
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I don't think aces and eights is actually considered to be an unlucky hand (it's middling decent in draw poker), it's just called the dead man's hand because of the Bill Hickock association, not because you're gonna die soon.
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  #19  
Old 12-17-2004, 07:42 AM
RM Mentock RM Mentock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke
Stop--apparently, you're both right. I was all about to weigh in on Otto's side, when I went looking for cites and found many conflicting definitions:
I don't think anyone was disagreeing with Otto's term for it, it was just his claim that Aces Over Eights did not designate a full house. As you've found out, people also often refer to a two pair in that fashion--but it's redundant in that case, since the order of "Over" is determined by the card rank. A full house can have Eights Over Aces, but two pair cannot.
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