Amway

[Maxwell Edison]

Can anyone give me the straight dope on Amway/Quixtar? (I used the SD search engine and found nothing - this seems like too obvious of a topic not to have been covered before). The reason I ask is that I had a friend I had not seen in a while drop by the other night, and it did not take long for the visit to degenerate into an Amway sales pitch. The way he explained it works screamed "pyramid scheme" to me, and there are several websites out there slamming it. So is it really a viable way to make money? Does anyone out there really buy Amway products on a regular basis?

[Sofa King]

It's not really a pyramid scheme. It's more like a trapezoid.

[tcburnett]

Obviously no one wants to get into this. No, it's not a way to make money but the Amway (and other) lawyers have clouded the pyramid issue in the courts by claiming that it is a viable 'multi-level' marketing plan. It isn't. Neither is Herbalife. Be nice to your dumb friend, but see how much money he makes from Amway.

[Sofa King]

Here's a previous thread that gets progressively more detailed until someone (Mr. B, I think) tosses in some interesting links near the end.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...?threadid=3244

[Arjuna34]

I know some extremely succesful Amway people. It basically is a pyramid scheme, with the twist that there actually useful products to sell. You make most of the money getting others to sell for you, and getting them to get others to sell for them (hence the pyramid). From what I've seen, to make it work well, you have to be an extremely good salesman/people person, with a large network of friends and associates. Don't forget to be in sales mode 100% of the time, pitching Amway to friends and relatives. If you're like that, it seems to me that you'd be even more successful with a normal job.

I think Amway's on the decline somewhat because at the lowest level, there are the people actually selling products (Amway soap is the traditional one), and with Wal-Mart, warehouse stores, etc., Amway's actual product advantages are disappearing.

Arjuna34

[Arjuna34]

Ack, after reading my previous post, it sounds like I'm suggesting that someone try Amway. Although I know some people who've made a ton of money, it's still a pyramid scheme that can't work well for the vast majority that try it.

From what I've seen, there's almost a cult-like transformation that happens to those who join, forcing them to turn every get-together into an Amway pitch.

Arjuna

[tcburnett]

It's not really a pyramid scheme. It's more like a trapezoid.

I hate elegant answers like that. Because I didn't think of it first. Thank goodness I can steal it for future use.

[Minxsmom]

We had a pretty normal friend. About 10 years ago she started up with Amway. Now she's one of those Amway pod people. You can't talk about the weather she'll start with, "if you join Amway, you could get an Amway umbrella, then you wouldn't have to worry about the weather."

Whether she really makes money at it or not, I'm not sure. I don't really have the nerve to ask. She owns her own diner, is really pushy, and NEVER stops going on about it - so she probably has a pretty good network under her belt by now. But, I'm the last holdout - the last friend that hasn't been sucked into the Amway web of death - and I intend to stay that way.

[Minxsmom]

I just realized I never answered the questions you asked.

1. Looks like a pyramid, acts like a pyramid .... They'll deny it to the ends of the earth. But, basically, it's a pyrmaid.

2. I can't really speculate on the money with any certainty - I'm sure someone makes money. But, at this stage of the game, you'd probably be too far down the pyramid to make any real money, unless you were VERY aggressive.

3. I wouldn't touch Amway anything with a 10 foot pole. It's probably the cleaning products that turn you into one of those Amway pod people.


BTW, are you majoring in medicine or are you just fond of silver hammers?

[Danielinthewolvesden]

Well, Amway WAS a pyramid, but after the Attorney general got on their asses (this was during the heyday of such Pyramid schemes) they changed it JUST enough so it did not barely qualify. When I reviewed tax returns for a BIG company, I must have seen thousands of "Amway" sch C's. The only one that had a profit (and a rather nice one too) was an Amway "promoter" who did those 'rah rah' meetings & stuff. Sold about $1000 of product, made 200K in 'meetings'. So, YOU CAN'T MAKE A PROFIT BY SELLING THE STUFF! The only ones who make a profit are those who tell YOU that you CAN make a profit. The products, themselves, are pretty good, tho- but kinda expensive.

Oh, and warning, in some areas, "Amway" has turned into a psuedo-Fundie-religion. No, really.

[Sycorax]

If you CAN make money, you have to work your ass off and be aggressive in roping in every friend, relative and acquaintance. I had a girlfriend/co-worker about 15 years ago. She quit the office job. I didn't hear from her except weeks later she called and invited me to her place. There was some hint of there being a purpose for it, but said she didn't want to say what (my first thought: oh God, not tupperware). Well it was an Amway sales pitch (she hosted but a strange man did the pitching)for me and a few others. It turned me off completely. Okay with the "you'll be a millionaire in 5 or 10 years" thing, and he even said you have to be willing to put in the time and effort, but then he goes on and on about how it's dumb to work for someone else doing whatever it is we were doing. (Like, God, how could you poor schmucks earn a living that way?) Seemed like a real put-down to me. After a few more phone calls from her urging me to get into it and me saying no thanks, I didn't hear from her any more. Some friend. Another co-worker was into Amway about 10 years ago; he's still working at the office job.

[Xgemina]

I remember when my parents got into Amway about 15 years ago, seems that was its heyday in the early-mid eighties. They used to get magazines every month from Amway talking about the silver, gold, platinum, pearl, and diamonds distributors (diamond was the highest) and the vacations to resorts that Amway would send these people on. The vacations were actually sales seminars in disguise.

The only way to make money as most of the above posters have mentioned was to get others to sell products under your umbrella. Thus while increasing your base you automatically increased the base of those above you. You had to get several levels before you saw any benefits, selling the products yourself barely paid for the products and shipping.

You had to make sure that each of the people below you where activly recruiting as well, most of the upper echelon people, that's all they did. They would go recruit for the lower levels, it wouldn't help them much to sign someone up directly under them, so they would get people under the lowest level (thus adding another level to them). These people in the upper levels (the gem levels: ie. pearl and diamond) made some bucks (similar to a pyramid) and was impressive as hell to those trying to get started. (you to can make it with amway)

My parents never got their initial investment back as far as I know. Still think there is some old amway cleaning stuff left over from those days at my parents's house now that I think about it.

[Doug Bowe]

Here's a link that's not very complementary

http://www.skepdic.com/amway.html

[Ringo]

More to the subject of MLMs in general than just Amway.

Some people do make money off of them. A very few. Most lose. A common theme amongst the pitchers I've run across in the last few years, which may have some truth to it, is that the time to get in is when it's a young deal (makes sense for a pyramid scheme), i.e., the time to get into Amway was 20 years ago.

I have a friend of 20 years who has also been my business partner for over 10 years (in a conventional business). She hooked up with an MLM company about a year ago. She knew better than to pitch me (I try to take that as meaning she'd like to still be friends 20 years from now), but the thing became a bit of a sore issue between us, as our business was going through a very tough period and I was working hard to keep it flying while she pursued this MLM deal. It became a 'let's talk about it as little as possible" thing. Anyway, about three months ago I went to work as an employee for one of our clients, so I don't work at our company anymore. I still get over there once or twice a week to help her with administrative and technical things, and I see that she has taken that step few who sign on with the MLMs do: she's made it her job.

Our conference room is full of promotional stuff for this company, I know she's holding regular meetings in our office. I dropped by at lunch about two weeks ago and two offices were occupied by women working the phones, from scripts (who incidentally, challenged my entry - hell, I pay the rent on that office and own the damn phone system, computers, copier, fax machines, etc. that they're using - ugh!, sorry, end of rant). Our email has become an electronic accessory of this marketing machine.

The company she's signed on with, whom I'll not name, sells a dumb Internet terminal, i.e., you can surf the web and use it as a phone, but it's got no disk drives nor mouse. It's Internet connectivity for those who are disinclined to know what a computer is. I think you can buy one for ~$150, but the deal is pay ~$500 to get one and become a distributor. They also have some discount deals on office supplies. So, as with the Amway deal, there are bona fide products, but my partner knows the real deal.

What has surprised me is the extent of her commitment; a former client and old friend in my business has been contemplating putting together a project with our company and called to express some technical concerns and talk the deal - all normal stuff - and then he finished the conversation by asking me about what I thought of her MLM deal. She's pitching everybody! She got the property manager for our building and her gal Friday. She got a couple of the attorneys two offices down the hall. When I go by the office, I see mounds of business cards from people not even barely associated with our business.

OK, so on to the point..., some can make some money if they make the commitment my partner has. She is on full time - any human who appears to have $500 dollars gets talked up - and she is providing (at least, probably, until our lease is up) a recruiting and boiler room facility where she can run her charges and see that they (or, I suppose, give them the opportunity to) produce. Very few MLMers do that. Frankly, I wondered when she started why nobody who's going to be gung-ho ever rents some mall space and puts a bit of product out - hmmm, I sure that's been tried.

Another aspect of the MLM deal I'll mention quickly is that it is really not like being in business for yourself. When you have your own venture you have a lot more flexibility regarding your primary effort, marketing, policies, etc. When you're a distributor you are really a self replenishing extension of the company. You have very little say in policy, market direction, etc. It makes me think of my years as a cabdriver - I owned my cab and the guys who drove for me were my employees. So, I was an independent business entity. I got a lot out of it (my college job) in the sense that it instilled the sense of respnsibility that goes with it being your ass on the line if commitments are not met, and I learned the whole business capital depreciation, workforce tax, etc. drill in a simple lesson (I've thought before that it was the perfect college job and one that some insightful business prof should require as a learn the basics drill for aspiring business students). But I was nevertheless still just an extension of the parent company from whom I leased a city cab permit. I could go just so far. This latest part might not be of interest to those who just want to make some money.

I won't even attempt a comment on the "cult" thing that some people perceive in some of the more hyper MLMs. Anybody else want to address that?

I have yet to encounter (and I'm not looking, but lots of folks are) an MLM that was a good thing to do with your life.


Let me add that my partner is still one of my best friends - I'm just a bit in awe of what I've watched happen in the last year.

[lswote]

I tried Amway in early 1991. I didn't have any allusions about it as far as hitting it big, but I was told I would be able to buy products at wholesale plus 10%. I figured I couldn't lose even if all I did was buy products for personal use. But when I actually ordered products, I found I also had to pay shipping costs and also was billed $1 for every 800 number call to the Amway order center. This made the cost more like wholesale plus 20-25%, plus many of the products were the more expensive brand names so generic products bought at regulars stores were actually cheaper than the Amway product when all the costs were factored in.

I did try to pursue the networking side of things but the person who recruited me went through the list of friends and co-workers I came up with and then dropped all attention toward me when my contacts had been used up.

Attending my only Amway meeting was like attending a fundamentalist church service. I was in Amway for about 2 weeks and and bought $100 worth of product I was required to purchase when I joined. Much of the products were things I didn't use, like carpet cleaning fluid or bathtub lime remover. I would disuade anyone considering Amway from joining it.

[KCB615]

Hmm...a thread started by Maxwell Edison (did you major in medicine?), with an additional post by Beatle. Go figure.

[tcburnett]

[HIJACK]

Since we are bashing Amway (Don't look at me, I was at the top of the bashing list) Would anyone with personal knowledge give me the story on Herbalife?

And, since we are on pyramid schemes, there is a cute one called "Le Club Prive" circulating on the internet via SPAM. I was told that I could make up to 100% PER MONTH interest. Did I believe that? Fuck no. But I have a good friend that is sending them all the money he can get his hands on. Jeeeeez, I can't convince him it's a scam, either.

Caveat Emptor.

[David B]

Some friends of ours got into Amway. They invited a whole group of us over to dinner ... and an Amway presentation by the people who got them involved. We didn't know about the latter. None of the rest of us joined, but they thought they'd be able to make lots of money, quit their jobs, etc. They went to retreats, met supposed millionaires, etc. They just didn't understand that there can only be so many people who do well at something like this. In fact, one of our friends who was at the dinner with us asked about saturating the market, and the presenter gave him some song and dance, which all of us (except the couple hosting dinner) immediately recognized as bullshit.

So let's just say they didn't make lots of money and are still working at the same jobs. Now they're not even buying their own stuff from Amway any more, let alone selling any.

[Nurlman]

tcburnett:

Would anyone with personal knowledge give me the story on Herbalife?

Sure. Go through the posts above, and replace "Amway" with "Herbalife" and "cleaning products" with "diet pills and vitamins."

I had an aunt become a small time Herbalife distributor. HL's main hook, beyond the MLM angle of course, is losing weight. Ever seen those "Wanted: 30 People Looking to Lose 20 lbs. in 6 weeks" signs stapled to telephone poles? That's an Herbalife distributor.

My aunt bought several hundred dollars worth of various bottles of herbs and vitamins and supplements. Not being the most sophisticated person in the world, she was convinced that she could make a small but steady income (c.f. the thousands of dollars a month the recruiters talk about) just by selling the products to friends and co-workers, rather than trying to create her own heirarchy. Big mistake. 15 years later, those pills are still in her basement.

HL is no different than Amway, the Blue-Green Algae people, phone card pyramid schemes, or any of a million other MLM's floating around out there. The only thing different is the product that's being pushed.

[Saint Zero]

You can probably find this out by reading any of the links you come across, but one telling note: Upper level people do not sell any of the products. They make their money and keep on the top by selling the books and tapes. They don't give a crap how much coffee you sell, but how many books you buy.