Harvard's President says men have a natural advantage in math and science

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/
Dr. Lawrence Summers said in a conference on economics:

  1. Women are less likely to succeed in science and engineering fields because the long hours required make it near impossible to have children and care for them.
  2. The pool of applicants for math and science degrees doesn’t include many women.
  3. Innate differences in men and women show that men are naturally better suited for math and science, citing math scores in high school and an anecdote about his daughter.

He also said these are hypotheses and research needs to be done on the subject of gender diversification in science and engineering.
I would say statements 1 and 2 are more or less correct.
Is there any truth to statement 3? If not, what accounts for the large gap* between men and women in graduate science and engineering degrees? How big a role does gender discrimination play?

*Gender statistics from undergraduate to doctorate degrees, 1970-1999.

The problem is that there so much cultural influence on the problem that it is next to impossibe to clearly identify what is due to gender. Then number of women in math and science is going up. Is this because women are evolving to become better in these areas? Obviously not. Culturally it has become acceptable and somewhat more encouraged, so those who have an aptitude are entering fields from which they would have been discouraged years ago. These are still viewed as more masculine areas though, so the numbers are lower than would be reflected by any inate differences between the sexes.

Often this question is taken as directly offensive and it is suggested that the questioner is just a bigot. This seems silly to me. There are many obvious dramatic physical differences between males and females, and no real reason to assume that their brains have to be identical in aptitude in all areas. It seems obvious to me that the genders will have a differing average ability in these areas, the questions then are: are these differences in natural abilities between genders large enough to even be noticeable over the natural range of abilities in people within a given gender, and is the difference small enough that we will never be able to compensate for cultural effects? I think these are interesting questions, and the last time it was discussed I was unable to find any good answers.

Some people have commented that research in this area is a bad idea in general and only contributes to reinforcing stereotypes without any benefit for humanity. I think this is wrong as learning how the brain develops and what skills it is better adapted to in males and females may help us to understand what contributes to those skills (hormonal effects?) in such a way as to be improved upon. Note that I have not made any assumptions about which gender would in fact have the highest aptitude in these areas outside of the influence of society, it is entirely possible that cultural influences have negated women’s natural superiority in math and science.

Oh, and I missed your last question. I don’t see how gender discrimination is making much of a difference now. I imagine there are several profs who may avoid working with women due to their own beliefs, but in the engineering programs I have seen they have been doing a great deal to encourage female students. They just have a hard time finding recruits.

I suspect it will be difficult to differentiate cultural and genetic causes. When I went to MIT there were about 10 - 15% women, now there are 50%, and I doubt that this can be attributed to anything but social influences. None of the women I knew reported any obvious bias by the admissions office, including the radical ones.

I don’t know about science, but my family is traditionally good in math, and both my daughters are. I have no idea how much of this is genetic and how much of it is environmental.

I’ve not often ventured into this board, because these are topics on which it is difficult to change someone’s opinion, but…

The link doesn’t make the same claims that you post. Here is a quote:

Being willing to state that they need to be studied is great, INMHO. Science is a great tool for studying itself. Let’s get at it, instead of claiming it is all cultural find out. I recall reading, from a feminist, that the normalized difference in standardized measures of math ability is greater than the difference in height between men and women. So there is a difference. Is it cultural? Is there an innate difference? If the difference is cultural, how to we address this issue? The political question is “Should we?” (Perhaps society is better off getting more men in “nurturing” fields than getting more women in “hard” sciences.)

Answering difficult questions like this is what science is about. Interesting that it was a biologist who was so closed minded as to walk out. (Heck, I can’t even remembe who the president of my undergraduate college was. He hardly “led” me.) Seems to me biology is pretty close to an even split, it is in math, physics, and the more mathematical engineering fields that the difference arises.

No one is claiming there haven’t been great female mathematicians, and that there wouldn’t have been more if less sexist societies had existed. He is just bringing up the obvious, that there might be an innate difference. I don’t see it within my own family, but 5 kids is hardly a reasonable sample, and let’s face it, most high school math is mere calculation. My kids certainly played with different toys when very young, and payed with them differently, so I find the possibility of an innate difference to not be far fetched.

No one has a transcript, but I’m not aware of ANYONE who was there, or who interviewed participants later, who have claimed that he said men have a natural advantage in math and science. As I understood it, he cited some research on gender differences and aptitudes and said that such findings MAY help explain the gender gap in those careers/academe.

I think he put his foot in his mouth by not being diplomatic enough, but you’re sure not doing him any favors with your misattribution.

Here’s a link to an interesting four-page article. The article outlines tested and brain differences between the genders and offers some opinions based on that – To get an idea – here’s the intro portion of that article -

http://www.brainconnection.com/content/91_2

I think biologists are a little more sensitive to charges of racism and such being interpreted into their work, as biology is most closely linked with some of the excesses of the past such as eugenics projects and claims that non-westerners were “less evolved”. I recall their was a lot of backlash amonst biologists to E. Wilson’s attempts to explain social structures through evolution, because people thought it might be interpreted or misused to justify racism and biological determinism.

And I agree that there may very well be some psychological differences that predispose different genders to different activities and occupations, and that Universities shouldn’t be afraid to examine such things.

I’ll also add that as someone studying mathematics that while there may be fewer females studying math, the ones that do take it up are certainly able to hold thier own against their male conterparts, so while I might be able to belive men have more of a predisposition towards math, women are certainly not incapable of it by any measure.

Your memory serves you well. After Wilson published Sociobiology he experienced attacks on his reputation, shouting during his lectures and speeches, and at least one physical attack. A description of those encounters, Wilson’s words, is at the link –

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wilson01.html

Sorry, I’m not that experienced with coding, so I only listed the CNN article.

  1. Women are less likely to succeed in science and engineering fields because the long hours required make it near impossible to have children and care for them.

http://news.com.com/Harvard+chief+defends+talk+on+women,+science/2100-7337_3-5540130.html
2) The pool of applicants for math and science degrees doesn’t include many women.

http://mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?cg=BreakingNews-InternationalNews&ao=178124
3) Innate differences in men and women show that men are naturally better suited for math and science, citing math scores in high school and an anecdote about his daughter.

http://mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?cg=BreakingNews-InternationalNews&ao=178124
I agree that research needs to be done in the area, and I am interested in the results. The President’s remarks just brought the subject to light.

The thread title was an attempt to find a balance among the news stories that I read, like “Harvard President says male scientists best,” “Harvard President: Why women are poor at science,” and “Harvard president touches off gender debate.”
As no transcript is available, no one knows what was said. I agree that what he said was probably taken out of context and blown out of proportion, especially by the woman who walked out on the speech. I was trying to present the debate in a provocative manner, and I apologize for my error.
Could a mod please change the title to: Harvard’s President’s remarks spark gender controversy."?

This sounds like yet another hysterical attack on anyone that even mentions that there might be worth studying whether or not there are innate differences in the sexes beyond the obvious physical ones like muscle mass and the effect of hormones on things like impulsiveness, libido, etc. A lot of people at Harvard don’t like Summers for a lot of reasons (he’s an economist, foremost), and they’ve gone after him by mangling his statements before and putting scare-quote headlines on his speeches.

What’s really ironic is that as long as you are a woman, and woman studies-type, you can go on and on about how women speak in “different voices” and so on, or have special insights, or have some sort of fancy menstural moon power. And what do you get? Fawned over. But if you are a man, or, god-forbid, a scientist that actually practices the scientific method instead of a “woman-centered method of psycho-social text-based interpretation,” who raises the issue: well then here come the fireworks!

Let’s face the facts: there may well be some variation difference between (straight) men and (straight) women (gay or transgendered people may also thus be different as well, though in what ways would be murkier). The reality is, if you look at the animal kingdom, you’ll find a curious fact: social animals in which the sexes are similar tend to be those in which monogamy is the norm. Social animals where the sexes are different tend to involve lots of harems. Where do humans fall? Well, especially if you count only first-time life-long partnership as monogamy (which is what it’s like in many animal species: no “wild oats” period), humans overwhelmingly look to be a harem species. The vast majority of human civilizations before the modern age with first both sexual repression and then liberation and equality have been harem cultures. And even now, our attempts at “monogamy” are fairly pathetic.

Now, what does that tell us? Not a whole lot, really, and indeed even the handful of human generations that have passed since harems were the norm may be enough to make changes in our gene pools that make men and women more alike than they once may have been. But it does open the door to speculation.

And frankly, it’s offensive to want to shut that door. We’ve fought long and hard to get to a point where our civil rights and values and dislike of stereotyping aren’t based on literal equality. If women really are more inclined towards literature and men towards math (and then, only on the average in a distribution where some women are way better at math than some men!) then finding this out should not threaten our society or laws. Ethically and legally, we deal with people as individuals, looking directly at their own qualities independant of grosser group traits.

And think about this: if men and womens brains don’t work quite the same way, then by refusing to acknowledge it, we might be passing up the ability to better deal with depression by doing it differently among men and women. Just as it would insane to treat everyone with the same blood type, so too it might be stupid (though not quite as deadly wrong) to give Welbutrin to both men and women.

I have the same issue with race. Yes, race is a pretty gross and superficial construct, I agree. Except, well, people that can trace their ancestry to certain lines really DO tend to have different medical problems on than other ancestries. And yes, you can’t really tell if someone really has that ancestry simply by looking at the color of their skin or their features (though, troublingly enough, you’d often have a pretty good chance of being right, which is the virtual definition of it being useful information). But that’s not the same thing as saying ancestry makes no difference, and that ancestry doesn’t at ALL match up with “racial” features.

I would disagree. In my experience, women seem less interested in science and math. That is not the same as being worse at it. All (well, most of) the female engineers/scientists I’ve known could handle math just fine, at least as well as men. But outside that group, there seems to be a rapid drop off because women just don’t give a damn by and large. I see that as social conditioning. People tend towards the roles they feel society wants them to fill, and the image put out is that girls don’t belong in science.

My sister and I went to school with Larry Summers, and we both sucked in math and science.

Do science and engineering fields require that more and longer hours than any number of other fields where women have made strides and succeeded?

There are definitely differences between men and women. If men really have a natural advantage in those subjects, though, I’d be surprised. If nothing else, “math and sciences” is such a large and vague description - what would provide anybody with an advantage?

That was precisely one of the things Summers said we should look at.

For instance, to be very very simplistic, let’s say that testosterone creates in men the urge to be obsessive about projects that are dull, repetative, and often require very little social interaction. By lucky chance, this behavior also happens to be necessary in fields like math and computer science to gain mastery of certain tasks and concepts: lots of endless “fooling around” is needed. And thus, from this much larger pool of loner technical obsessives, we are more likely to draw geniuses in these subjects.

Now, realize what this doesn’t say. It doesn’t say that women lack intelligence in these fields or are less capable or smart. What is says is that they tend on average to be less willing and less habitually inclined to fall into the sort of behavior necessary to gain mastery over them, and thus we are less likely to see as many great women mathematicians or computer scientists. Not because of any lack in “spatial thinking” or anything else. In fact, in part because they lack what in all other respects are somewhat anti-social and obsessive behaviors that are unhealthy and warp ones’ judgement.

I think it’s mostly social conditioning. No one told me “Now Sarah, don’t bother with math and science, you are just a girl.” Granted they were busy telling me that I might be metally retarded because I couldn’t read, but that’s for another time. No one stopped me from taking the hardest math courses I could. No one stopped me from pursuing the sciences in high school. No one stopped me from majoring in chemistry and no one, if they value their lives, will prevent me from getting my degree summa-cum-laude-thank-you-very-much-girls-aren’t-good-at-science-go-to-hell in June. That being said, I am the only girl in my graduating class in chem, and there wasn’t any the year before or two years before that. And most programs that have large numbers of girls are in the softer sciences, notable biology, notable pre-med, in my experiences. In truth, no one wants to be a chemist as far as I can tell. It’s hard, dangerous work that smells bad and stains your clothes, and that’s on a good day. However, most girls bale ship long before the boys do on the sciences. It’s never said (at least in my experience) “science is for boys” but it permiates society, making girls that like science feel out of place. It’s almost as well known as the foolish notion that men are better with maps.

I can’t speak on the sciences, as I don’t have enough personal experience with teaching them to make a statement one way or the other. As a mathematics tutor, though, I feel that I am in somewhat of a position to make this statement: My students make approximiately the same grades in mathematics regardless of gender, once I’ve had some time to work with them.

The plural of “ancedote” is not evidence. However, because of my personal experience with this, I am somewhat skeptical of assuming that biological differences are responsible for the lack of women in mathematics-heavy fields. My own experience combined with frank discussion with others sharing my major (computer science) suggests that we should not be so quick to discount sexism of the “good ol’ boys” variety in these fields. But again, this is just an opinion.

Meaning it’s not at all foolish? It’s pretty well accepted by damn near everyone involved in such things that males are better at spatial tasks than women.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to understand but the plural of anecdote is not data. The claim was that it’s a TREND, which means that there might be a million people who might be exceptions to the trend but 100 million more who aren’t.

I’m not surprised that there are a buttload of females on this board who can claim to be better at science than all their male peers at school/university etc. I’m willing to bet that they were better than all their female peers as well and good at damn near everything else to boot. The dope isn’t exactly the place where stupid people congregate.

For about 6 years I helped my parents teach people math and english. Most of the participants were young children, although we did get a few adults. The children came from a wide variety of backgrounds although, in order to afford the program, they had to be middle or upper class.

Asians, as a group, were not better at math. Boys, as a group, were not better at math. The only way I could tell how well a child would do is how their parents encouraged their learning.

I think the difference (which is small 5-15 points) might have developed from the types of test. A 1997 University of Michigan study found that boys did much better at multiple choice science exams (how most of them were/are conducted), however, when they gave exams which required a constructed response, girls did much better.

What I would be interested in seeing, would be test scores from other countries and see if they get similar responses. Could any of our overseas dopers give us some results?

Just managed to find a nice site for internation test studies. (warning pdf.) According to this, in the fourth grade males had an average score of 535 while females had a 533. In eighth grade rolled around the males had 519 versus 512. And by the time secondary school rolled around, males were far outperforming females with 519 versus 482. Since the gap starts out so small, I believe the widening in gender gaps is due to cultural rather than inherent characteristics.

In science, males led from the 4th grade with 534 versus 525. In eighth grade it was 525 versus 509. By secondary school males had surpased females with 523 versus 469. The data seems to suggest that males do have a slight advantage over females in science. It was noted in the study, however, that while males did better in sciences like physics and chemistry, girls did better in life sciences such as biology.