The Legacy of Johnny Carson - Gone & Now Forgottem By Today's "Interviewers"

While listening to all the tributes now coming in from stars, celebrities, and ordinary folk alike, there is one story that is repeated again and again - as an interviewer, Johnny Carson actually listened to his guests.

Sure, The Tonight Show was an entertainment show. But Johnny went beyond the obvious. He listened to his guests. Now with his death we get to find out more how during commercials Johnny would have indepth conversations with his guests about the topics of the guests.

The interviewers of our day from Jay Leno and David Letterman, to Oprah, and anyone else who interviews people for a living ought to take note and start doing what Johnny did for so long and so successfully. He listened.

It is any wonder the news interviews, the celebrity interviews, the “indepth reporting” interviews are so crappy? It’s all about the interviewer and not the person being interviewed.

Unfortunately, most of us don’t have the attention span or patience of that slow-cooked, analog generation. Even if we did, I doubt broadcasters would want to indulge us. Time is real estate today in the media – every second of it has to maximize revenue.

On the Tonight Show, all but the highest class guest stayed the entire time, which let there be interaction among the guests, which Carson knew how to manage. (Especially when he got the drunkies.) The guy was a master.

I saw him when he was doing Who do you Trust, and he was great during commercial breaks too.

Actually, I think that back then there was a better rapport between all the guests and the host than there is today. Part of the reason keeping the the guests on the show worked so well was because the guests could be counted on to be well behaved, or if they misbehaved they did it for good comedic effect. Today’s shows just seem to have lost that group dynamic. Even Letterman and Shaffer have never managed the kind of easy relationship that Johnny and Ed had, along with Doc and Tommy Newsome and the rest.

Some of the funniest moments on the Carson show happened because of the guests sitting on the couch. Dean Martin dumping his cigarette ashes in George Goebbel’s drink, Funny quips from the couch, etc. Sometimes it was like watching a bunch of really funny old friends having a drink together. Entertainers just don’t seem that close any more.

I can’t imagine Truman Capote surviving on today’s talk-show circuit. I remember him from the Carson show, and can imagine the host going into conniption fits because … he … talked … so … slow at times.

Exactly. Back then, the Carson show was just a stop on the cocktail circuit, where guys like Capote thrived. Do Vegas for a week, hit LA, drop in and see Johnny…

Today it’s all much colder. Run like a business. The stars walk off stage between commercials to have their makeup adjusted. None of these people are friends. It’s all just business.

Time is money. About 90% of the people who go on talk shows these days are there specifically to plug their product. They’re protected by layers of publicists and assistants and people from the studios. They have 1000 other stops to make besides the Tonight Show: they’re on three-month-long world wide junkets. Late night shows have lost too many viewers. Carson had power to make or break. Nobody does anymore. It’s like Ed Sullivan after the rise of rock. He once could dictate to whoever came on on penalty of never inviting them back. By the time of the Doors, rockers no longer cared whether they came on Ed Sullivan. Their didn’t need him to sell records. Nobody needs one particular late night show today, not even comedians. When was the last time you heard of somebody making an appearance and breaking out big? It’s not a community, if it ever was: it’s purely one stop on the merry-go-round.

You can tell the difference when people are there just because they’re weirdly humorous. And they have to be humorous. There are no talk shows; only comedy shows. That’s why Leno’s ratings shot up after the first two years. He abandoned his old format, got close to the audience, started with a 10-14 minute monolog followed by a comedy bit. Letterman has never come close again. The audience wants jokes, and there’s a bigger audience for it than whatever it is Letterman’s doing these days. Or the audience wants celebrities and late night has to put on whatever no-talent flash-in-the-pans are making appearances no matter how much they stink up the joint.

You can’t go back. You can’t even trust your memories. Maybe there was a time when Carson really was all that and a bag of chips (you can’t go back for slang, either) but for years, maybe a decade or more before he quit, he was a hack. There was a time when he did bad jokes so that he could play off them, but his jokes grew so old and stale and repetitive that he needed to rely on those takes, which grew phonier and more obviously contrived all the time. He rode his standard bits into the ground long before SNL was accused of doing so, and they never got newer or better.

And let’s destroy the myth that he was a great listener. Again, maybe at one time. But by the end he was a laugh hog that stepped on everybody else’s lines so that he could get the applause. He stopped listening sometime during the Carter administration.

Carson was almost unwatchable on a good day by 1992. And, given how seldom he bothered to show up at all and how often he just phoned it in, there weren’t very many good days.

He was of his time. That time is no more. I blame the audiences. I always do, and I always mean it. The audiences want this style, and performers know they have to give it to them. Every first guest gets the same amount of time, no matter what they have to say. They must be worth it, after all: they’re famous enough to be the first guest and that’s all that counts.

On Dateline, Carson quoted Jimmy Durante. “How do you know when it’s time to go? When the audience stops showing up.” The audience stopped showing up for talk shows many years ago. And Carson stayed on ten years too long and prevented somebody from turning the show into something new as he had done with Paar and Allen’s shows.

I admire Carson tremendously, I really do. But nobody should get 30 years on a show that accounts for 20% of a network’s revenues. Power corrupts and Carson allowed himself to be corrupted.

Letterman should leave now. Leno has already punched his ticket out. Conan needs to clean up his act: the first half hour of the program stinks and doesn’t come alive until the guests come out. Throw it all out and start over. Ten people will fail before somebody figures out what works, but we’ll all be happier when it happens.

I have to admit I’m just a bit skeptical of the notions that

  1. Entertainment’s too much of a “business” now, or
  2. That people’s attention spans are shorter.

I think point 2 is utter bullshit, and point 1 does not match with the simple fact that the entertainment biz has been a bloody cutthroat business since the days of Mary Pickford. And I’ve seen some very obvious familiarity between Leno and Letterman and their guests. Just a few weeks ago Letterman had Jay Thomas back on and Thomas told his famous story about the Lone Ranger; you got the obvious sense that the rapport between them was much the same as between Carson and many of his guests.

So why do the talk shows hosts not seem as good now? Because Carson was the best. Someone’s gotta be the best, and Carson was it. Sure, Leno and Letterman aren’t as good as Carson. And no ballplayer’s as good as Babe Ruth. No rock band is as good as the Beatles. No hockey player will even be like The Great One. That’s not a knock on present day ballplayers, hockey players, or rock bands. It’s just that everyone looks band when compared with the master. And Johnny Carson was the master.

Exapno’s right, of course; Carson, the last few years, was awful. He still had the timing and the savoir faire but his jokes sucked and he was out of touch. But Babe Ruth was pretty bad there at the end, Wayne Gretzky couldn’t shoot anymore his last few years, and we all remember the horror that was “Wings.” In his prime, Carson was the best there’s ever been.

I have to argue the case that attention spans are smaller and that programs are faster.

It’s pretty easy. Just watch a 1950s drama to see how glacial the pace feels to us today. Watch comedy shows of that era. They’re longer but they rarely have A stories and B stories (I think Dick van Dyke may have introduced these) just one narrative that got nowhere in fewer words. People even talk much faster and say more during a show.

Hitchcock may be an icon but his movies creep along so slowly that they seem to take six hours to watch.

Bob Newhart told long stories to a telephone. He’d never get a chance today. Woody Allen, Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Danny Thomas, Jonathan Winters, the Smothers Brothers, all those Ed Sullivan comic teams except a few old-timers like Henny Youngman, all told stories instead of oneliners. They’d never make it on Premium Blend.

A skit on Your Show of Shows would go on for as many as ten minutes. Many SNL skits seem to take that long but never do.

Although a few of the more famous screwball comedies had extremely fast-paced scenes and dialog, they were the exception. Scenes normally lasted longer, contained more dialog, required more set-ups (i.e. we had to have establishing shots of people going from place to place and going through all the doors to ground the audience, whereas today we’d just jumpcut), and took longer to advance the plot, which we normally much less convoluted.

Every facet of entertainment I’m familiar with operates on a much faster pace. And MTV, sports highlight programs, 10-second ads, and IMing are creators/products of the shorter attention span.

Every example could be multiplied by a 100 if not a thousand.

As for today being more of a business, two comments. One is that the business is far huger and more spread out than it ever was. You have all kinds of people being celebrities, and they don’t run in the same worlds. It’s harder to know everybody and relationships are built on product and not on acquaintance. Two is that everything is geared to the first weekend sales: movies, DVDs, records, books. The product drives the business to a far greater extent than ever before. And if you don’t make it to the top the first weekend you’re not likely to have the chance to build it and let it grow. The world is busy publicizing something else.

Wow, Johnny did get everybody, didn’t he?

(Yes, I realize you misspelled his last name…)

It’s “conventional wisdom” that attention spans are shorter these days, but I’m not so sure. Back in the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s - films were often so short that a modern audience would feel ripped off on the ticket price. And look at the recent big-business blockbusters - Spider-Man 1 &2, Pirates of the Carribbean, the Harry Potters, and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy - none of these are short films. The Lord of the Rings movies in particular are enormous - and yet, did very well.

Don’t think it’s as simple as ‘audiences today have a shorter attention span.’

The movies of yesteryear were indeed shorter, but the movie goer also had a newsreel, a serial, maybe a toon or two to watch. The entire experience was often just about as long as today.

I think a part of the change is that there are many more movies opening in a year and every weekend is covered with mutiple openings. So those films have one or two or three stars on the talk show circuit.

I seem to recall that Johnny would sometimes have a person, a regular person that maybe did something strange on the show and he would sit and talk to them.

Leno does the man on the street stuff and only puts on the dumbest people. I hate that bit.

Ah, but we get a half-dozen commercials and a dozen previews. I think we’re still “ahead”. :wink:

I think the shortening of TV segments probably has more to do with jamming in as much advertising as we can without ticking people off.

Sorry for the hijack but I want to know:
Did Johnny say, “Sure, move the cat !”, to Raquel Welch?
and
“I’ll bet that makes his putter rise!”, to Jack Nickolas’ wife.

I don’t think it’s shorter attention spans so much as the segmentization of the TV audience. When Carson started hosting The Tonight Show in 1962, your typical TV market had three channels (one for each network) and maybe an independent station that mainly showed old movies. By 1992, there were still the three networks but also PBS, Fox, and hundreds of cable stations. During those 30 years, the emphasis changed from trying to grab as broad an audience as possible (see, e.g., a typical list of acts for the Ed Sullivan Show during the 60’s) to targeting increasingly smaller parts of the audience (e.g., males aged 18 to 34). In the past, it wasn’t uncommon for Carson (or Paar before him) to feature–in addition to the expected comics, singers, and popular movie and TV stars–authors like Capote and Paul Erlich and politicians like Barry Goldwater and Hubert Humphrey on the guest panel. (Carson’s competitor, Dick Cavett, was even more eclectic. I once saw an old show of his repeated on VH1 that featured newsman Chet Huntley and Janis Joplin. And it wasn’t like they do now where one guest goes on and leaves before the next one. The last 10-15 minutes of the 90-minute program had Huntley, Joplin, and the two other guests–whose names I can’t recall–in a group discussion with Cavett.) Now, people are more likely to watch only what they’re specifically interested in and then start channel-surfing when something outside their range of interests comes on. (That, incidentally, is why the prime-time TV variety show is dead in the U.S.) Carson, toward the end of his run, was a rare figure in that his show still attracted a fairly broad (in terms of 1992) audience. I’m not sure if there’s anybody around now–or ever will be again–who can still do that on a regular basis.

According to Snopes, no and no.