I heard Frank Zappa for the first time yesterday

[Bill H.]

I was not impressed.

I'm 41, a musician and a lover of music, especially rock and it's variants from the 60s to the 80s. I'm kindof surprised myself I haven't heard Frank Zappa before.

It was on a SNL I'd taped, and he did 3 numbers. one of them he had Don Pardo reading some long text on, and another he had John Belushi yelling and playing bad saxaphone on. Which is way cool, except it wasn't. It was one of those things where I could tell there was a whole lot of talent there and it was definitely unique, but I didn't get it. No melody, no cool lyrics, no beat to dance to. It was like bad jazz on acid.

I like Steve Vai, and I could see the obvious Zappa influence.

Is all Zappa stuff like this? I mean he had a big following and was touted as genius; is he just over my head?

[Loach]

It sounds like a cop out but you just can't judge him from three songs. He was an incredibly diverse musician. I'm not saying that you have to like him , much of his music is at best an acquired taste but you haven't even scratched the surface. On top of his own talent, he always surrounded himself with fantastic musicians. I think Steve Vai started playing in the band when he was 18.

[silenus]

Genius he is, but a hard genius to understand. Try Strictly Commercial for a good overview of his more commercial, or accessible work.

[mack]

I was moderately into Zappa until I saw him live. Then it was Holy Fucking Shit.

At the time I lived and breathed drumming, and he always had the best drummers on the planet and wrote the most amazing things for them to do.

I think his most accessable stuff is from the early-mid 70's: Overnight Sensation, One Size Fits All, Roxy and Elsewhere (Live). I was into that as well as his late 70's early 80's output: Bongo Fury; Zoot Allures; Joe's Garage; You are What You Is (the tour I saw when I had my Zappa revelation).

As for his 'genius' - to me it was mainly illustrated by the fact that he wrote just about every note and every lyric of every one of his albums, spanning or spoofing every musical genre, for nearly 3 decades. And he played absolutely blistering guitar solos on most of them. Just an astonishing amount of high quality output. He was an unstoppable musical force.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

I also recommend Strictly Commercial for a more accessible introduction to Zappa, who I found impenetrable at first, before I became a huge fan.

However, even better than that... listen to any of the You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore double-CD live albums, which will blow you away. If those can't convince you of the man's greatness, nothing will. He was a virtuoso and one of the only true GENIUSES of late-20th Century music, and he only surrounded himself with the finest musicians. I can only imagine the experience of seeing him live, but those albums really help.

[unclviny]

MACK,
I have a buddy Chuck who owns a "cool, independent record store" and I swung by there one day but he wasn't there, it was just his Flunky. I was cruising the aisles when I came up with both volumes of Bozzio/Wackerman "Alternative Duets" naturally I jumped and bought them, I talked to Chuck about a week later and he told me "I knew no one was going to buy those but they were so cool that I had decided to keep them, when I saw that they were gone I knew it was you". FZ always had incredible Musicians and Terry/Chad were 2 of the best (Chad was a kid when he got the gig with F.Z.!).

Unclviny

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Try Freak Out!, his debut from 1966. Searing blues based rock outs, freak-out psychedelia, and hilarious doo-wop sendups all jostle each other for an inch or two of vinyl on this startling debut!

OK seriously, it's a fun album. I had a hard time with the joke songs until I listened to them and appreciated how...carefully they are produced. No really...the instrumental arrangements are superb. Only, the longer, more freakish numbers, It Can't Happen Here and Help, I'm A Rock are weak in places, but still have some good moments.

[Bryan Ekers]

Was he saying _{help, help, I'm trapped in this box}?

[mack]

Chad was my idol. He was this geeky-looking little guy who made it look so easy.

He's the only drummer I saw with Zappa (I saw Zappa 4 times). I wish I could have seen Vinnie Colaiuta play with Zappa (my consolation was seeing him do a clinic in Denver).

I first learned of Bozzio when he took over for Bill Bruford in UK. I saw them at the Palladium in NY in '79 or '80. I really liked his playing on Bongo Fury and especially Zoot Allures.

Amazing drummers, all.

[Hail Ants]

I remember seeing that SNL when it first aired. I thought Zappa seemed like a neat guy, but I had no idea who he was (I was like 10). That was the one where there's a running joke about constantly saying that he doesn't do drugs.

Growing up the only song of his I ever got to hear was the only one my local AOR station ever played, namely Joe's Garage, which I thought was a decent song. Because of this I always thought of Frank Zappa as kind of a more talented Weird Al. That he was a comedy-musician, but I don't think that's quite right...

So Steve Vai started out in his band? Vai never really impressed me. He was talented, but I could never think of him as anything other than an Eddie Van Halen clone hired by David Lee Roth.

[Bill H.]

Hmmm. I knew that Vai had played with him, but I didn't know Bozzio did. I also like Bozzio a lot, in fact I was listening to Jeff Beck's Guitar SHop earlier.

A friend loaned me We're Only In It For The Money; I'll check it out tomorrow. Appreciate the album recommendations; I'm listening to this one first really only because it was immediately available.

[Made in Macau]

Didn't Chester Thompson also graduate from the Zappa school?
Anyway my recommendation would be FZ and the Mothers 'Live at the Filmore East' because the playing is amazing and the show is outrageously funny.

I think Zappa's like Everest - there's such a body of work it's hard to know how/where to start. But worth it.

MiM

[RealityChuck]

That SNL performance was when he introduced "Dancing Fool," one of his attempts to have a hit. Watch it again. "Dancing Fool" is a disco dancing song that is impossible to dance to. Really -- the rhythm constantly changes so that either you were off the beat, or you'd have to jerk around in such a way that you'd look like a . . . well, a fool.

To me, that is a sure sign of his sheer brilliance.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by Bill H.

I heard Frank Zappa for the first time yesterday

You'd never heard Don't Eat The Yellow Snow? Amazing.

[mack]

Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.

You'd never heard Don't Eat The Yellow Snow? Amazing.

Now that you mention it, Apostrophe is a great place to start off. Ruth Underwood, the incredible percussionist, is in the lineup playing marimba mostly. The first half of the album (Yellow Snow, Nanook Rubs It, St. Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast, Father O'Blivion) is amazing.

Zappa wrote 'The Black Page #1' specifically for Bozzio.

Others:
Chester Thompson (previously mentioned)
Captain Beefheart
George Duke
Aynsley Dunbar (John Mayall, Jeff Beck, Starship, Whitesnake)
The Turtles (Happy Together) sang for him in the early 70's. But that's kind of porno rock ("My dick is Harley! You kick it to start!).
John Guerin (Joni Michell's Court and Spark)
Jean-Luc Ponty
Adrian Belew (King Crimson)
Lowell George (Little Feat)
Jim Gordon (Derek and the Dominos)
Bruce & Tom Fowler
Don Preston
basically the cream of '70s LA studio musicians.

Speaking of Bozzio and Wackerman I Saw this while googling.

In Zappa's book he talks about what a trooper Steve Vai was. Vai had some kind of stomach virus and would puke into a bucket just offstage, run out and play, puke, play, etc.

[Bill H.]

Wow, I've met Chester Thompson. It was at a NAM convention, and not only did I meet him, but I saw him join in a spontaneous 5 minute jam session with Brian Setzer if you can believe it. Very nice guy (and Brian too). Still have both of their autographs around somewhere. He was playing with Phil Collins back then.

Well, I've listened to We're only in it for the money, and I'm no closer to enjoying Mr. Zappa. I liked the "Hi boys and girls. I'm so-and-so, and I'm the indian of the group", but that was about it. I could see why songs were supposed to be funny, but it wasn't my humor. Mojo Nixon, now that's funny. Weird Al, now that's funny. "I'm going to San Francisco and be a hippie and be a manager for a band and join love ins", well, it just wasn't my thing.

I'm thinking this is just one of those different strokes things.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

I forgot to mention about Freak Out! that one of the great things about it is all the copious info that comes with it (except lyrics, naturally). A mix of serious deposition and jokes, it really is an artifact of the Southern California music scene from the late 50s to the mid 60s when it was made, if only for the LONG list of people who Zappa says have "materially influenced our music" and asks the reader not to hold it against them.

Zappa wanted to produce the Doors, but they didn't even have a contract yet so it didn't matter.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by Bill H.

Well, I've listened to We're only in it for the money, and I'm no closer to enjoying Mr. Zappa. I liked the "Hi boys and girls. I'm so-and-so, and I'm the indian of the group", but that was about it. I could see why songs were supposed to be funny, but it wasn't my humor.

Well take one last stab, ditch the humour and try one of his all ( or rather mostly ) instrumental albums like Hot Rats, Burnt Weeny Sandwhich, or The Grand Wazoo. Frankly that's what I tend to prefer ( and I wasintroduced to them by a big jazz buff ), though I really like most of his stuff. His earliest albums like Freak Out!, [b]Absolutely Free[/i], or We're Only in it for the Money do little for me as well.

He also did some later period instrumental albums, but I'm blanking on the titles - Sleep Dirt perhaps? Or maybe Studio Tan? I haven't listened to my Zappa in awhile.

- Tamerlane

[Cabbage]

Bill H., I notice you didn't mention anything about Zappa's third number on SNL; what did you think of that one?

That number was Peaches En Regalia (one of my favorites) from his jazzy album Hot Rats. I see Tamerlane just mentioned this album, so I'll second it. Hot Rats is mostly instrumental, so if Zappa's sense of humor isn't your style, maybe this will be. Some of his more melodic stuff is on this one, such as Son Of Mr. Green Genes and Little Umbrellas, so you might give this one a shot.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

He also did some later period instrumental albums, but I'm blanking on the titles - Sleep Dirt perhaps? Or maybe Studio Tan? I haven't listened to my Zappa in awhile.

- Tamerlane

Definitely not Studio Tan, which is four weird songs (with lyrics); mostly offbeat humor like the Frankie and Annette-style beach party parody "Lemme Take You To the Beach" and the 20+ minute cartoony epic "The Adventures of Gregory Peccary."

[Cabbage]

I thought I'd add one more thing, regarding the stupid lyrics in some of Zappa's songs (actually, I generally find his lyrics quite amusing) from FZ himself:

I don't have any pretensions about being a poet. My lyrics are there for entertainment purposes only--not to be take internally. Some of them are truly stupid, some are slightly less stupid and few of them are sort of funny. Apart from the snide political stuff, which I enjoy writing, the rest of the lyrics wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the fact that we live in a society where instrumental music is irrelevant--so if a guy expects to earn a living by providing musical entertainment for folks in the U.S.A., he'd better figure out how to do something with a human voice plopped on it.

--FZ, quoted from The Real Frank Zappa Book.

In other words, don't let his lyrics get in the way of his music.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by Big Bad Voodoo Lou

Definitely not Studio Tan, which is four weird songs (with lyrics); mostly offbeat humor like the Frankie and Annette-style beach party parody "Lemme Take You To the Beach" and the 20+ minute cartoony epic "The Adventures of Gregory Peccary."

Actually, apart from "Greggery Peccary" (which is mostly narration--sort of Zappa's equivalent of Peter and the Wolf--with only a few short passages of actual singing) and "Lemme Take You to the Beach," the album consists of two lengthy, and exquisite, instrumentals: "RDNZL" and "Revised Music for Guitar and Low Budget Orchestra." The latter is a reworking of an orchestral piece originally composed for Jean-Luc Ponty, and features Bruce Fowler's breathtaking multi-overdubbed trombone doubling and harmonizing an improvised Zappa solo.

[Bill H.]

Cabbage wrote

Bill H., I notice you didn't mention anything about Zappa's third number on SNL; what did you think of that one?

That number was Peaches En Regalia (one of my favorites) from his jazzy album Hot Rats. I see Tamerlane just mentioned this album, so I'll second it. Hot Rats is mostly instrumental, so if Zappa's sense of humor isn't your style, maybe this will be. Some of his more melodic stuff is on this one, such as Son Of Mr. Green Genes and Little Umbrellas, so you might give this one a shot.

Honestly, though I did listen to all three all the way through, I don't really recall much other than the xylaphone and the performance-art theatric stuff. I thought the third was the one with John Belushi, but maybe that's not correct. I'll see if I can check out Hot Rats though.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Bill H.

Cabbage wrote

Honestly, though I did listen to all three all the way through, I don't really recall much other than the xylaphone and the performance-art theatric stuff. I thought the third was the one with John Belushi, but maybe that's not correct. I'll see if I can check out Hot Rats though.

Yeah, the first one (I'm the Slime) was with Don Pardo, the second one (Lagoon, I believe) was with Belushi, and the third one (Peaches en Regalia) was (in my opinion) the best and entirely instrumental.

[Bill H.]

I must say, that's an impressive memory you've got there, Cabbage.

[Eutychus]

Originally Posted by Bill H.

Well, I've listened to We're only in it for the money, and I'm no closer to enjoying Mr. Zappa. I liked the "Hi boys and girls. I'm so-and-so, and I'm the indian of the group", but that was about it. I could see why songs were supposed to be funny, but it wasn't my humor. Mojo Nixon, now that's funny. Weird Al, now that's funny. "I'm going to San Francisco and be a hippie and be a manager for a band and join love ins", well, it just wasn't my thing.

That would have been Jimmy Carl Black who went on the form "The Grandmothers" consisting of old members of The Mothers of Invention after the original group broke up.

Yes, the thematic style of the album is pretty dated these days and you do have to listen to it in context of the times it was made in. Considering this, it was pretty advanced for it's time. Parts of it are still advanced now!

And I also have to mention Don "Sugar Cane" Harris who Zappa rescued from obscurity for a little bit. Zappa was one of the first to include a violinist in a straight rock band (i.e., not a "progressive" rock band.) However, he ended up hating Jean Luc-Ponty because he always ended his solos in exactly the same way and Zappa didn't feel he was getting any real creativity out of him.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Bill H.

I must say, that's an impressive memory you've got there, Cabbage.

Not really, I just watched it this past Saturday night!

[Miller]

I don't really get Zappa, either. Maybe when I was fourteen, songs about yellow snow would have been right up my alley, but now it's just... kinda embarassing, really.

Originally Posted by Cabbage

In other words, don't let his lyrics get in the way of his music.

I guess that sums up exactly why I'll never be a Frank Zappa fan.

[fishbicycle]

Can I just drop in here to recommend that you listen, at some point, to "Sheik Yerbouti" and especially "Tinseltown Rebellion"? I can't think of a better description for either, than stellar.

[danceswithcats]

Although Frank did a great volume of single work, my favorite is from his days with the Mothers of Invention, in which they did a spoof on do-wop 50s music, entitled Cruisin' With Ruben and the Jets. His Phi Zappa Krappa poster is high art also!

[Ellis Dee]

Zappa is the man. Here's what you need to listen to:

Hot Rats is the greatest album ever made. Not much for lyrics, but the songs are stellar.

If you like Hot Rats, Grand Wazoo is also a good. I call it the poor man's Hot Rats.

The guy released 50 albums, many of which are acquired (and varying) tastes, so just randomly picking something will get you an experience similar to the one you had with We're Only In It For The Money.

Here's my very favorite Zappa albums grouped by genre and ranked inside each group in descending order of favorites first.:

Instrumental
---------------
Hot Rats
Grand Wazoo

"Conventional" (Traditional-ish songs, albeit satirical lyrics)
----------------
Roxy & Elsewhere ("Village of the Sun" is simply too good. I can't not sing to it.)
Joe's Garage
Them Or Us
Apostrophe
You Are What You Is
One Size Fits All
Overnite Sensation
Zoot Allures
Sheik Yerbouti
Baby Snakes
The Man From Utopia
Läther (Posthumous collection of previously unreleased material from the Joe's Garage era.)

Mothers (hardcore)
---------
Chunga's Revenge
Just Another Band From LA
Fillmore East, June 1971

Live (Absolutely no overdubs!)
-----
You Can't Do Than On Stage Anymore 3
You Can't Do Than On Stage Anymore 4
You Can't Do Than On Stage Anymore 2 (My favorite, but it's better if you know Roxy & Elsewhere first. The extended Pygmy Twylyte is awesome in context.)

Old School (This group, for instance, is probably not your cup of tea.)
------------
Absolutely Free
We're Only In It For The Money
Freak Out

Acquired Taste
------------------
Thingfish
Uncle Meat
Jazz from Hell

(Not a fan of Tinseltown Rebellion, personally, but I love Cruisin' With Reuben And The Jets.)

Originally Posted by Miller

I don't really get Zappa, either. Maybe when I was fourteen, songs about yellow snow would have been right up my alley, but now it's just... kinda embarassing, really.

I guess we know your answer to Zappa's age-old question: "Does Humor Belong In Music?"

For those who don't like humor in their music, I'd say you will have given Frank a completely fair shake if you only listen to Hot Rats and Roxy & Elsewhere. If you like them, you might like his other stuff as well, but even if you only ever listen to those two, that's enough to be able to say you gave his stuff a chance. But one simply can't dismiss his work after only listening to We're Only In It... and his SNL performance. (Was that the one with Dumb All Over? Not my favorite performance, to be sure. I don't particularly like any live version of that song, though the studio version on You Are What You Is is pretty good.)

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

He did something called "Broadway the Hard Way" that I thought was pretty good, as well. Kick-ass band on that (as usual) too.

[nitroglycerine]

Originally Posted by fishbicycle

Can I just drop in here to recommend that you listen, at some point, to "Sheik Yerbouti" and especially "Tinseltown Rebellion"? I can't think of a better description for either, than stellar.

The neat thing about these albums, and a few other ones, is that they were put together using parts recorded live at various shows and reconstructed in the studio. One song might have been put together from ten different shows. Thats one of the reasons FZ hated bootleggers so much. Live versions of songs would be bootlegged before Zappa even had a chance to finish them in the studio.

Late period FZ (Sheik Yerbouti and after) is my favorite is my favorite FZ since thats what I grew up on.

Most dopers who haven't heard FZ would probably enjoy You Are What You Is. He takes on the religious right, politicians, fat girls, high society, hell...just about everyone takes a hit on this record. It also contains my favorite FZ words of wisdom: "Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over".

Another thing about FZ is his whole conceptual continuity thing. From Freak Out to his post mortem albums, he would revisit themes, characters and concepts, creating his own Zappa universe that reached its peak on the three record set Thing Fish

Also, if you're old enough to remember the PMRC hearings, you have to hear "Porn Wars" from FZ Meets The Mothers Of Prevention

[Club 33]

Originally Posted by mack

Now that you mention it, Apostrophe is a great place to start off. Ruth Underwood, the incredible percussionist, is in the lineup playing marimba mostly. The first half of the album (Yellow Snow, Nanook Rubs It, St. Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast, Father O'Blivion) is amazing.

I just wanted to chime in and mention that the drummer on this album is the incredible Ralph Humphrey. He was later one of the heads of the percussion department at the Musician's Institute in Hollywood, where I studied. He also taught (appropriately enough) odd time and polyrythmns, as well as a class in studio drumming.

He never gets the same credit that Vinnie, Chad, or Terry does, which is sad. His contribution to Zappa's music was quite notable.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

I guess we know your answer to Zappa's age-old question: "Does Humor Belong In Music?"

I don't have a problem with humor in music at all. It's just that I don't find Zappa to be funny.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Bill H.

Hmmm. I knew that Vai had played with him, but I didn't know Bozzio did. I also like Bozzio a lot, in fact I was listening to Jeff Beck's Guitar SHop earlier.

I was thinking about this post all morning, because it reminds me that Terry actually sang one or two songs, most notably I'm So Cute from Sheik Yerbouti. I enjoy that song immensely, especially the rationale for why being so cute is so necessary:

Ugly is bad,
and bad is wrong,
and wrong is sinful,
and sin leads to eternal damnation,
and HOT BURNING FIRE! (SCREAMS of Agony)

ah renn-enn-enn ah renn-enn-enn ah renn-enn-enn ah renn ah!
ah renn-enn-enn ah renn-enn-enn ah renn ah renn ah rah!"

So good. I have to go listen to that song now. Right now. You wish you could be, but you're so homely, at home and lonely, that you will never, get to be.