Ridiculous?:Kabbalah and Celebs

[jeffh3000]

This new Kabbalah craze with a lot of celebrities bothers me. First off they aren't jewish, and have no intention of converting, but claim to be "kabbalahists"

I find all this silly as kabbalah, is basically a jew sect, or jewish mysticism. To me just because one kabbalist rabbi realized that he could turn the mystical properties of kabbalah into a marketing bananza that would be a money machine, does not make it acceptable or "real".

I would like to know if others feel that this is wrong or at least incredibly silly and inappropriate on the part of celebs and other people seeking the next new age fix? If they aren't jewish then they aren't kabbalahists

I should note I am neither a jew or a kabbalahist.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

To me just because one kabbalist rabbi realized that he could turn the mystical properties of kabbalah into a marketing bananza that would be a money machine, does not make it acceptable or "real".

Depends on how seriously you take religion, I suppose. New religions don't have less validity for any reason I can think of. ::Insert obvious point about Jesus here.:: If the people buying into it think it's real, I suppose it's as real as any other religion.

I would like to know if others feel that this is wrong or at least incredibly silly and inappropriate on the part of celebs and other people seeking the next new age fix? If they aren't jewish then they aren't kabbalahists

Silly? Yeah, on its face it's pretty goofy. Most people are accustomed to taking religion seriously, so the fact that these celebs are trying a new spirituality like they might try a new line of clothes or brand of coffee looks odd. Although maybe it's not that odd. Even in non-proselytizing religions like Judaism, you can find people doing it 'because it's cool' or 'because other people are doing it,' which is pretty much the same. It's not wrong and I definitely don't think it's inappropriate. If it makes them look dumb, I'm fine with it. It doesn't hurt anybody else. Even if they're doing it for ridiculous reasons, I don't think you need to say "they're not Kabbalahists." If they say they are, that's good enough for me. They may be ignorant Kabbalahists, or underinformed, or dupes, or doing it for stupid reasons, but I don't think those are the same thing.

[Johanna]

During the Renaissance there was a trend among intellectuals known as
Christian Cabala. Its practitioners included Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Cornelius Agrippa von Nettelheim, and Robert Fludd. Once when I had been reading about the history of magic in the Renaissance and mentioned it to a Jewish Kabbalist I was working with, I remember how he took offense at the phrase "Christian Cabala." Like it or not, it is part of the intellectual history of Europe and helped to form part of the basis for the development of modern science. There have always been and always will be creative thinkers who color outside the lines.

[C K Dexter Haven]

This was discussed in the Pit recently, with a little more venom: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=300179

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Depends on how seriously you take religion, I suppose. New religions don't have less validity for any reason I can think of.
<snip>
Even if they're doing it for ridiculous reasons, I don't think you need to say "they're not Kabbalahists." If they say they are, that's good enough for me.

Well real kabbalahists are jew, and are very intense about their faith, so they ARE quite insulted by these celebs pretending to be kabbalists, misunderstanding traditions and claiming to be kabbalists following 1000's year old traditions.

I think you may misunderstand here, this is not a new religion but a sect of judaism that is 1000's of years old. All kabbalists are jewish, it is that they are just a particular kind of jewish. Just like everyone else, right or wrong they have the right to have their beliefs respected.

To say that they are kabbalists just because they say so is erronous. If they don't follow kabbalist rules then they aren't kabbalists. That is like saying that if an atheist says "I am a christian" that they are suddenly christian because they say they are. They obviously aren't if they are still atheist, as by definition christians believe in God, jesus, etc.

I say that they aren't kabbalists as by definition they are not. If they don't follow the rules of kabbalah, then they aren't kabbalist If they want to prance around with string and perform sexy ancient rituals, then they SHOULD form their own religion, rather than claiming to be kabbalists. There is a distinction here.

The answer to why they haven't is that it wouldn't be as nearly sexy for them if they weren't able to say that they were part of a religion that is thousands of years old. Well they simply can't have it both ways.

There is nothing kabbalist about the things that they are doing, and the Rabbi is doing it all for a buck. It should also be noted that that kabbalah leaders have admonished the rabbi of the kabbalah center for this as well.

I respect celebs right to be or look as ridiculous as they wish, however to claim that they are kabbalists when they are not is truely ridiculous. I say that celebs should form their own religion and call it Celeballah . They can then prance around in strange ritual ceromonies and worship pieces of string. This way would be great for them too, as they can create funky rituals and do whatever they want.

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by Johanna

During the Renaissance there was a trend among intellectuals known as
Christian Cabala. Its practitioners included Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Cornelius Agrippa von Nettelheim, and Robert Fludd. Once when I had been reading about the history of magic in the Renaissance and mentioned it to a Jewish Kabbalist I was working with, I remember how he took offense at the phrase "Christian Cabala." Like it or not, it is part of the intellectual history of Europe and helped to form part of the basis for the development of modern science. There have always been and always will be creative thinkers who color outside the lines.

Ok, first off lets not compare celebs to creative thinkers or intellectuals, as it is their need to follow something and do the "in" thing that started this to begin with.

There are several errors with your logic, first practioners of "christian cabala" didn't consider themselves kabbalists. Not that what they did is much better, but it is certainly different. They simply stole certain aspects of kabbalah and put it into their traditions. Second, just because someone else did something stupid at some point in history doesn't make it any more valid now. Everything has to happen for the first time at some point.

[WhyNot]

Well, it ain't just celebs and there's far more than one Rabbi teaching Qabala to non-Jews. Are you angry with them, or is the celebrity thing specifically what's chapping your hide? There's been a long-time serious study of Qabalah by Thelemites, Golden Dawn, O.T.O. and other Western Esoteric traditions. Not thousands of years old, but well over a century old - older than the Kabbalah Center and the current dude who runs it, anyway.

It's widespread enough that in Esoteric circles, the various spellings of the word itself can often indicate which group of study you're talking about: Kabbalah is usually, but not always, Jewish. Cabala is usually, but not always, Christian. Qabalah is usually, but not always, Thelemic/Golden Dawn derived. Any one of these, or other variations, can also refer to the study by eclectic neopagans or new age types.

For me, it doesn't matter too much where wisdom is held. It's far more important that the wisdom itself be shared and utilized, whether I have a foreskin (or penis) or not. I can tell we're not likely to come to an agreement here, and I know from previous threads that I am in the minority on this point, but it really doesn't bother or even affect me. So, for me, the answer to your question: Ridiculous?: Kabbalah and Celebs is no, it's not ridiculous.

I'm also curious why you say you're not a Jew or a Kabbalist, but you seem rather vehemently misinformed about what kabbalah is. It is not a sect or branch of Judaism the way Lutherns are a type of Christian. Rather, it is a branch of study which some, but not all, Jewish people choose to study. Since well back into the Dark Ages, it was not the private secret teachings of only the Jews - in fact, it likely would not have survived the Dark Ages without being protected by the Muslims, like much of non-Christian religious and philisophical information.

It is a system of understanding the universe which can be applied to all religions and all people, as well as all governments, all relationships and even all message boards.

If you'd like actual information on the system, check out The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford by Lon Milo DuQuette, which is a very funny and also very practical and accurate introduction to Qabalah for the beginner.

[Khadaji]

Michael Berg a noted Rabbi and teacher of the Kabbalah would disagree with the notion that you must be Jewish to learn the Kabbalah. He feels that God has opened the door for teaching Kabbalah to everyone. He is quite learned and has made the Kabbalah his life's work, so I believe his oppinion counts. From his web site:

Michael Berg has breathed the principles of Kabbalah since birth. Son of eminent Kabbalist Rav P.S. Berg, director of the Kabbalah Centre, Michael achieved a feat of momentous proportions at the age of 28 -- the first complete English translation of the holy Zohar, a 23-volume compendium of virtually all knowledge pertaining to the universe, written in the ancient language of Aramaic.
In addition to teaching at the Kabbalah Center and lecturing the world over, Michael is co-director of publications for the Kabbalah Centre, and writes a weekly column for the Centre's web site, www.kabbalah.com.

Previous to Becoming Like God, Berg distilled Kabbalah's 5000 years of wisdom into two highly accessible books: The Secret: Unlocking the Source of Joy & Fulfillment, and national bestseller The Way. An ordained rabbi, Michael lives in Los Angeles with his wife and three children.

Becoming Like God

As to whether or not it is silly, that is for each person to decide. It is steeped in tradition and is no more or less silly than many of the other religious teachings of the world. For some, that means very silly indeed, and for others, not at all.

[C K Dexter Haven]

OK, let's be clear on what Kabalah is. It's a form of mysticism that arose in the 1200s (although some people claim it goes back to Temple times, 500 BC - 100 AD.) The main principle is that there are two realms: physical and spiritual. The Hebrew text of the Torah (Pentateuch) contains power and illumination, both straightforward and hidden (mystical.) Doing the mitzvot (commandments in Jewish Law), such as eating only kosher food, keeping the sabbath, etc, somehow helps unify the spiritual realm and the physical realm, and helps perfect the world.

Then there's all kinds of elaboration on these basic premises. Some of it is complex and profound and zen-like, some of it is numerological and convoluted and rather silly.

Taking Kabbalah away from the mitzvot, however, is to rob it of its practical application and be left with a philosophical mush. Analogy: Imagine someone learning architecture and just learning aethetics, having no idea how to actually deal with things like support beams, blueprints, plumbing, or any of the practical side. Imagine someone taking a course in poetry, and only dealing with the great poetic themes, never mentioning words, rhyme, or meter. Imagine someone claiming a new brand of Christianity, and noting that Jesus turned water into wine, so saying that the only thing you have to do to be a neo-Christian is to drink lots of wine. It's missing the whole point.

In short, this "Kabbalah for Idiots" or for celebrities is not much more than jazzed up relaxation (perhaps with a bit of meditation, although I wouldn't swear to that.) It has nothing to do with Kabbalah.

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by jeff

I find all this silly as kabbalah, is basically a jew sect, or jewish mysticism. To me just because one kabbalist rabbi realized that he could turn the mystical properties of kabbalah into a marketing bananza that would be a money machine, does not make it acceptable or "real".

I would like to know if others feel that this is wrong or at least incredibly silly and inappropriate on the part of celebs and other people seeking the next new age fix? If they aren't jewish then they aren't kabbalahists

'Course round about 50 A.D. christianity was basically a jewish sect. Paul realized he could make a lot of followers by selling it to the Gentiles. Was that incredably silly or inappropriate? Many of the original churches founders felt that if you weren't Jewish (i.e. circumsised) then you weren't a christian.

Religions in general schism and merge at an increadable rate throughout history. It's no more inappropriate in this case then in anyother.

[jeffh3000]

Some of your assertions are incorrect. Maybe you misunderstand what I say.

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I'm also curious why you say you're not a Jew or a Kabbalist, but you seem rather vehemently misinformed about what kabbalah is. It is not a sect or branch of Judaism the way Lutherns are a type of Christian.
Rather, it is a branch of study which some, but not all, Jewish people choose to study. .

Actually that is basically what I said in my emails. It is a matter of semantics and I disagree with your assertion. If it is practiced by some jews, but not all, then kabbalish jews are a sect of judaism by definition. If you are implying that I said all jews believe in kabbalah, that obviously is not true, and I never said any such thing.

You are also greatly misinformed if you believe that kabbalah is only a only a century old. Written doctrine of Kabbalistic tradition goes back to the 1st century CE, but it is widely believe that oral tradition goes back much further, possibly to the time of Melchizedek. There is substantial literature of Jewish mysticism dating from the period 100ce - 1000ce that is part of traditional Kabbalah. The origins of the word Kabbalah can be traced to 12th. century Provence. The origin of the word "Kabbalah" as a label for the tradition which is definitely recognizable as Kabbalah is attributed by scolars to Isaac the Blind (about 1160-1236 C.E.). Before this time followers of Kabbalistic tradition were referred to by a variety of terms "masters of mystery", "men of belief", "masters of knowledge", "those who know", "those who know grace", "children of faith", etc but it clearly goes back to about the first century, if not much farther back.

Whether you realize it or not, Kabbalah is of jewish tradition and frankly I am suprised to hear someone claim that it is not. It should also be noted that Rabbi Berg, of the kabbalah center is a Jewish rabbi as well. Some aspects of Kabbalah are so deeply intertwined with Jewish religious beliefs and practice that they are meaningless outside of this content. Which is the root of the problem. To answer your question, that is where my problem arises with Rabbi Berg and The Kabbalah Center reside. My problem is with the bastardization of traditional religious beliefs into pop culture and new-agism for the sake of something trendy. It is rediculous and has no meaning. Honestly I hate it anytime anyone tries to make a "new" religion.

What you primarily are referring to in your email is only Qabalah, which is a small offshoot of traditional Kabbalah, and not the same thing. I take it that you are a follower of Qabalah?

While certainly there have been small offshoots over history that have used elements kabbalistic tradition, they were not, nor claimed to be Kabbalists, which you even essentially point out in your email. This is true of even most major religions. In comparision that doesn't make some branch Davidian, a cultist or follower of Voodoo, into a Roman Catholic, just because they may share a small element of some similar belief that have their root in the same place as Catholism.

To bottom line MY issues here, it is primarily with Rabbi Berg and The Kabbalah Center. These celebs are not kabbalists, and it is even laughable as I have heard them discuss things and they don't even get the information close to being right. They are simply picking a few trendy elements of kabbalah that look cool and are using the ceromonies and legends to create some sort of trend and appear "deep" or "spiritual". They don't even know what they are doing or what it is about. I think it is insulting to real Kabbalists (and so do they). My problem is with the bastardization of traditional religious beliefs into pop culture and new-agism for the sake of something trendy. It is ridiculous and has no meaning.

One can be christian, jew, or atheist and still apreciate this. Celebs can go play with their expensive string somewhere else.


P.S. As a completely seperate note, for those that are interested to learn about Kabbalah read Kabbalah for Beginners by Rabbi Laitman

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by Khadaji

Michael Berg a noted Rabbi and teacher of the Kabbalah would disagree with the notion that you must be Jewish to learn the Kabbalah. He feels that God has opened the door for teaching Kabbalah to everyone. He is quite learned and has made the Kabbalah his life's work, so I believe his oppinion counts. From his web site:
Becoming Like God

As to whether or not it is silly, that is for each person to decide. It is steeped in tradition and is no more or less silly than many of the other religious teachings of the world. For some, that means very silly indeed, and for others, not at all.

Well as Rabbi Berg is the one that is teaching the celebs at The Kabbalah Center, so it would be logical that he would promote this, as they aren't Jewish and that would cut into his money.

He is at the root of the problem that we are discussing here

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

'Course round about 50 A.D. christianity was basically a jewish sect. Paul realized he could make a lot of followers by selling it to the Gentiles. Was that incredably silly or inappropriate? Many of the original churches founders felt that if you weren't Jewish (i.e. circumsised) then you weren't a christian.

Religions in general schism and merge at an increadable rate throughout history. It's no more inappropriate in this case then in anyother.

It think that you misunderstand my comment about it being a jewish sect. There is nothing wrong with Kabbalists. My point was that true kabbalists are jewish. I refer to them as a sect, as only some jews are Kabbalists. Sect may not be the correct word to use here, but I don't see a more appropriate one and I was trying to distingish the fact that many jews are not kabbalists.

The problem isn't with Kabbalists, it is that whatever these celebs are, they are certainly not kabbalists. They aren't really following, nor do they understand kabbalah. It is simply a pop culture thing that is the next in thing. For this reason I find it silly and ridiculous

[Khadaji]

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

<SNIP>I would like to know if others feel that this is wrong or at least incredibly silly and inappropriate on the part of celebs and other people seeking the next new age fix? If they aren't jewish then they aren't kabbalahists
<SNIP>

My apologies, I didn't check the forum that this was posted in - my mistake. From the quote above I thought you were asking how others felt. I can tell you have already made up your mind - so I'll leave you to your opinion.

[WhyNot]

I did not assert that Kabbalah is not Jewish in ORIGIN or that it is only 100 years old, I stated that it is not and has not been exclusively PRACTICED and STUDIED by Jews for well over a century.

In other words, the Kabbalah Center, Rabbi Berg and Madonna are merely following in a long line of non-Jewish studiers of the Kabbalah.

Yes, I've studied Qabalah through a Hermetic system for about 6 years. I am a raw beginner, and never proclaim myself "a Kabbalist, a quabbalahist" or any other spelling of the word. I am a student. I expect to remain a student until the day I die.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

Well real kabbalahists are jew, and are very intense about their faith, so they ARE quite insulted by these celebs pretending to be kabbalists, misunderstanding traditions and claiming to be kabbalists following 1000's year old traditions.

They are? On what basis do you know this?

I think you may misunderstand here, this is not a new religion but a sect of judaism that is 1000's of years old.

As has already been posted, you're wrong about this. You say you're not Jewish or someone who has studied Kaballah (I'm also neither), and your knowledge of both things seems suspect.

There is nothing kabbalist about the things that they are doing, and the Rabbi is doing it all for a buck.

I'm not sure why the Rabbi's motivation is a factor here. The list of people making religious claims and asking for money is enormous.

I say that celebs should form their own religion and call it Celeballah . They can then prance around in strange ritual ceromonies and worship pieces of string. This way would be great for them too, as they can create funky rituals and do whatever they want.

Well that's big of you, but it's not what they want to do. Which is why it's not what they're doing.

I'll close with a quote from the Simpsons, that font of all wisdom: "This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants, designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say the Lord's Prayer 40 times, but first, let's pass the collection plate."

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

In other words, the Kabbalah Center, Rabbi Berg and Madonna are merely following in a long line of non-Jewish studiers of the Kabbalah.

Except what they're studying, and what "Rabbi" Berg is teaching isn't Kabbalah. It takes Kabbalistic ideas and symbols and tries to universalize them. But Kabbalah isn't universal. It's a way of understanding the Torah, and as such, it's an exclusive discipline. The Zohar is a uniquely Jewish work just like, for example, Ignatius Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises" is a uniquely Catholic work. As a non-Catholic, there are parts I can use, but it wasn't written for me, and a lot of it you have to be Catholic to really understand.

Please understand I'm not saying this to insult you. If you've found some sort of spiritual help out of what you're studying, I'm glad for you. But your faith tradition, whatever it is, has its own mystical tradition. You'd do better to study that.

[EvanS]

No. No more ridiculous than people born Catholic or other Christian who suddenly declare themselves Sikhs or Hindus or Muslim. No more ridiculous than people who have lived a life of depravity who suddenly declare themselves "saved" but do not practice even the one great commandment of jesus, to love one another as Jesus loved others....

In other words: It don't mean nuthin' -- and in America you can't do nuthin' about it.

So flake off.

Evan the Kabahlihist ;j

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by EvanS

No. No more ridiculous than people born Catholic or other Christian who suddenly declare themselves Sikhs or Hindus or Muslim. No more ridiculous than people who have lived a life of depravity who suddenly declare themselves "saved" but do not practice even the one great commandment of jesus, to love one another as Jesus loved others....

In other words: It don't mean nuthin' -- and in America you can't do nuthin' about it.

So flake off.

Evan the Kabahlihist ;j

Evan

I believe you prove my point in your email, as you use a jewish smilely in your email when referring to kabbalah. Kabbalah is a Jewish tradition, if they aren't jewish then they aren't kabbalists. The issue is that the people that we are referring to are not kabbalists, they are just pretending to be, while only following a few legends and glitzy rituals with a complete lack of understanding of Kabbalah. That is the difference between them, and

I have no problem with real Kabbalists, only pretenders of any belief or religion which is only done for the pop culture value. That is the reason this bothers me.

Your comparison to people converting to Islam or Hinduism is inaccurate, because people do really convert to Islam or Hinduism and their beliefs. The same could be certainly true of a kabbalist, and if so, I have no problem with somone that converts to traditional kabbalah. It is pretenders that don't even know the meaning of the rituals they are practicing,and only do it to do what is in. There is nothing religious or spiritual about this. I think that C K Dexter Haven put it best in his post earlier in the thread, what these people are doing really isn't even Kabbalah.

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I did not assert that Kabbalah is not Jewish in ORIGIN or that it is only 100 years old, I stated that it is not and has not been exclusively PRACTICED and STUDIED by Jews for well over a century.

In other words, the Kabbalah Center, Rabbi Berg and Madonna are merely following in a long line of non-Jewish studiers of the Kabbalah.

Thank you I appreciate your clarification.

I respectfully disagree with your implication that Kabbalah is not jewish however, as that to which you refer to is not Kabbalah, but rather various belief systems which have included some tenets based on some kabbalistic traditions. I find elements of Kabbalah intriguing, however I will never be a kabbalist, as I have no intention of ever converting to judaism. One website that can be visited for those that don't won't to buy a book but still learn about kabbalah free online without all the pop culture is here. As I previously said, and was also somewhat echoed by others in this thread, some aspects of Kabbalah are so deeply intertwined with Jewish religious beliefs and practice that they are meaningless outside of this context.

My issue lies with this trendy meaninglessness. Celebs have cherry picked a trendy 2% of legends and ceromonies from Kabbalah, taken away all the meaning, and have turned it into pop culture, pretending/claiming to be Kabbalists while breaking many of the most basic and sacred kabbalah tenets. That is what makes it silly- there is no belief or meaning behind what they do.

I find it silly every time celebs or pop culture highjack any religious belief system so that they can pretend to be "deep" or "spiritual" when they really have no clue what they are talking about. Kabbalah is just one currently popular example.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

My issue lies with this trendy meaninglessness. Celebs have cherry picked a trendy 2% of legends and ceromonies from Kabbalah, taken away all the meaning, and have turned it into pop culture, pretending/claiming to be Kabbalists while breaking many of the most basic and sacred kabbalah tenets. That is what makes it silly- there is no belief or meaning behind what they do.

The real problem here is that EVERYBODY (or practically everybody) cherry-picks what they want to believe from their own religion. Or believes in different things, or variations, or added things that aren't in Scriptures, and so on. You're coming to this from the assumption that there's the real religion, where everybody believes the same things, reads the same things, and understands them the same way, and then this trendy phony interpretation. There are a bunch of different kinds of Judaism, and if you ask members of some of them, members of others aren't 'really' Jewish, or aren't 'as Jewish.' The same is obviously true of Christianity and probably every other religion.

I find it silly every time celebs or pop culture highjack any religious belief system so that they can pretend to be "deep" or "spiritual" when they really have no clue what they are talking about. Kabbalah is just one currently popular example.

You seem particularly annoyed by it, but this isn't unique to celebrities at all. Trendy things pop out of religions pretty often, I think.

[DocCathode]

Re Berg

Fluency in Hebrew and Aramaic is essential to understanding Kabbalah. A translated Zohar is a worthless Zohar. It is also an insult to Kabbalah, and the text itself. Berg is a mamzer. I forget which Jewish sage said "May he be cursed in his laying down and cursed in his rising up, cursed in his going out and cursed in his coming in, cursed at the rising of the sun and cursed at the setting of the sun."

Re Crowley And The Hermetics

I have never seen evidence that Crowley believed any of his teachings. I have seen evidence that he was a conscious fraud who pretended mysticism to get money, sex, and attention.

Considering how many Hermetic texts I've seen which mistake the Greek Hermes for Thoth/Hermes Trismigestus/Thrice Great Hermes I don't have a lot of respect for them. They've also managed to fundamentally misunderstand Kabbalah.

A central tenet of Kabbalah is that the Torah is exactly as G-d gave it to Moses. A Torah with one letter changed is defaced and imperfect. A Torah translated into English, or any other language, holds no mystic secrets and is without mystic power. Kabbalah cannot be seperated from Judaism. You can make mommale's chicken soup with matzoh balls using pork or shrimp and still have something. You cannot remove Judaism from Kabbalah and have anything valid.

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by Marley23

You seem particularly annoyed by it, but this isn't unique


You seem particularly annoyed by it, but this isn't unique to celebrities at all. Trendy things pop out of religions pretty often, I think.

Oh, I realize that it isn't just celebrities, that is why I refer to pop culture doing this in general, celebs are just easy to point out.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

Kabbalah is a Jewish tradition, if they aren't jewish then they aren't kabbalists. The issue is that the people that we are referring to are not kabbalists, they are just pretending to be, while only following a few legends and glitzy rituals with a complete lack of understanding of Kabbalah.

No Jeff, they are not pretending, they are trying. (To you, I suppose they are very trying!) They are doing the best they can to follow a religious tradition that appeals to them spiritually, and who are we to protest? Remember "freedom of religion?"

Frankly, your approach strikes me as elitist, and somewhat bigoted. It just doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

I have no problem with real Kabbalists, only pretenders of any belief or religion which is only done for the pop culture value. That is the reason this bothers me.

How can you know their motivation? You can't. Unless you are claiming psychic powers or some sort of inside information.

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

what these people are doing really isn't even Kabbalah.

To them it is, and that's all that matters.

FWIW, I know a few of these people. They are seeking to enlighten themselves, to gain spiritual knowledge (and in some cases power) from a mystical tradition shrouded in elite mysteries. It's very appealing. Some of them actually work quite hard at it as well. Perhaps what they are doing doesn't fit your criteria, but who are you to claim they are insincere?

Methinks the doper doth protest too much.

Plus. Who are they hurting?

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by EvanS

No Jeff, they are not pretending, they are trying. (To you, I suppose they are very trying!) They are doing the best they can to follow a religious tradition that appeals to them spiritually,

They can't be trying very hard. The slightest bit of research would reveal that Berg is teaching them a bastardized, gutted version of a tradition.

and who are we to protest?

I don't know about you, but I'm a Jew.

Remember "freedom of religion?"

Strawman. Nowhere have I said that Berg should be prevented from 'teaching' by law or force. I haven't suggested laws or the use of force to prevent Madonna and the rest from studying. I am simply excercising my freedom of speech.

Frankly, your approach strikes me as elitist, and somewhat bigoted. It just doesn't make sense.

Kabbalah is founded in strict adherence to Jewish law, fluency in Hebrew and Aramaic, and years of Talmudic study. Berg is teaching that none of that is necessary.

To them it is [Kabbalah] and that's all that matters.

So if somebody pursues spiritual truth by deciding the New Testament is unimportant and unnecessary, but that they can achieve enlightenment by wearing a robe, sandals, and carrying a jar of carpenter ants, the only thing that matters is that they consider what they are doing Christianity?

FWIW, I know a few of these people. They are seeking to enlighten themselves, to gain spiritual knowledge (and in some cases power) from a mystical tradition shrouded in elite mysteries.

In general, they want secrets without bothering to learn the elite mysteries. Second, any one studying Kabbalah to gain power is a misguided idiot.

The ability to predict the future, cure the sick, or create golems is NOT the goal of Kabbalah. These are side effects. The goal of Kabbalah is to truly know and understand G-d.

It's very appealing. Some of them actually work quite hard at it as well.

I'm sure some people also work hard at Dianetics.

Perhaps what they are doing doesn't fit your criteria,

Or the criteria of the man who wrote the Zohar. Or the criteria of centuries worth of rabbis and scholars.

Again-Strict adherence to Jewish law, and decades of study of the Talmud in the original languages are the prime requisite for Kabbalah. Without that, it's impossible to understand. The metaphors are lost on you. The multiple interpratations of words and sentences are lost on you. The nuances are lost on you. And you lack the entire context in which things are said.

but who are you to claim they are insincere?

I never said they were insincere (Except for Crowley). I said that they were misguided.

Plus. Who are they hurting?

Define hurt. Berg is perverting, disemboweling, and commercializing a sacred part of my heritage.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by EvanS

Plus. Who are they hurting?

They're hurting all the people who study Kaballah for real, and they're hurting Judaism, by turning it into "Exotic religion of the week" just like has been done to Hinduism, to Buddhism, to Islam. In all these cases, people from outside the religion come in and look at the mystic tradition and they decide they want spiritual enlightenment,

Now most of these mystic traditions say that you need to be a good member of the religion before you even try to take them on...that you have to know the holy books of the religion, and try to follow the religion's rules, and they point out that to achieve enlightenment, to be a good Kabbalist, or a good Sufi, or a good Zen monk, or a good Krishna devotee, it's not enough just to memorize some phrases or to perform certain rituals. You have to be willing to lead a life of self denial. You have to strive for perfection, and to purify yourself. Why? Because you're learning hidden meanings that aren't obvious to the average worshiper, and meanings that, if you don't know enough of the basics of the religion, seem radical or even heretical. Is it elitist? Yeah...that's the point. It's a form of religion for the elite, that is out of reach of the ordinary, casual worshiper.

So when somebody comes in who doesn't have that background, who tries to come in from the outside and says, "I want to learn it", how can they learn it? They're not spiritually ready. And when a teacher or guru says "Come on, everyone can learn it, just pay me", they're taking what's a serious and private thing, watering it down, and using it to get rich.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

They can't be trying very hard. The slightest bit of research would reveal that Berg is teaching them a bastardized, gutted version of a tradition.

I don't know about you, but I'm a Jew.

Doc, I wasn't addressing you, but jeff, his comments and his attitudes. I also wasn't referring to Berg. Not all who study Kabbalah learn from Berg.

Originally Posted by DocCathode

So if somebody pursues spiritual truth by deciding the New Testament is unimportant and unnecessary, but that they can achieve enlightenment by wearing a robe, sandals, and carrying a jar of carpenter ants, the only thing that matters is that they consider what they are doing Christianity?

Irrelevant, misleading and an insulting comparison, to boot. You might want to consider a chill pill.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by EvanS

Irrelevant, misleading and an insulting comparison, to boot. You might want to consider a chill pill.

Explain exactly how it is irrelevant and misleading. From where I sit, it's an entirely relevant explanation of what's being done to Kabbalah. I fail to see how it's misleading either.

You said that as long as these folks think they are practicing Kabbalah, that's what matters. Well, they misunderstand and practice as badly as the 'Christian' in my example. When my hypothetical calls himself a Christian, you call it insulting. When I'm insulted by gentiles calling themselves Kabbalists, you tell me to "take a chill pill."

What, exactly, is the difference?

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

They're hurting all the people who study Kaballah for real, and they're hurting Judaism, by turning it into "Exotic religion of the week" just like has been done to Hinduism, to Buddhism, to Islam. In all these cases, people from outside the religion come in and look at the mystic tradition and they decide they want spiritual enlightenment,

Those who are studying are hurting no one. Those who pervert the teachings are hurting their students, perhaps, but Kabballah has been "the exotic religion of the week" off and on for hundreds of years. It's too late -- it's a done deal. And it's been done to every religion anyway already. I guess you think you are special? Get a clue -- so does everyone else.

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

So when somebody comes in who doesn't have that background, who tries to come in from the outside and says, "I want to learn it", how can they learn it? They're not spiritually ready. And when a teacher or guru says "Come on, everyone can learn it, just pay me", they're taking what's a serious and private thing, watering it down, and using it to get rich.

This thread has been attacking the students, not phoney teachers. Changing the subject doesn't make you right.

Seekers have a right to seek whatever is available. If you think you can keep them away from your precious teachings, too late.... The secret's out. Sure there's a lot who won't, can't get it. There's a lot of Jews who won't, can't get it either.

If you don't like the phoney teachers, I don't blame you. I don't like them either, and judaism doesn't have a monopoly on them; just about every religion has those who for various reasons teaches a distorted version, most of them thinking they have the real truth and that the old way was wrong.

But I'm not going to go online and whine (or is that kvetch?) about it. I've heard enough whining since the 2000 elections (redoubled in 2004) to last a lifetime. Whining just makes you look immature. You don't like something? Why don't you do something useful.

Oh, pardon me, freedom of speech, you're free to whine if you wish. Just as the rest of us are free to form our opinions about whiners.

You're free to think studying Kabballah is ridiculous if not done in a way you approve of. And anyone who wants to study Kabbalah or anything else is free to do so no matter what you say or do.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

They're hurting all the people who study Kaballah for real, and they're hurting Judaism, by turning it into "Exotic religion of the week" just like has been done to Hinduism, to Buddhism, to Islam. In all these cases, people from outside the religion come in and look at the mystic tradition and they decide they want spiritual enlightenment,

You've got a strange definition of "hurting." They may be embarrassing themselves, but I don't think they can be hurting Judaism, Jews, or actual Kaballah students, many of whom are probably unaware of what they're doing at all.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by EvanS

And it's been done to every religion anyway already.

Ah, so because people have already crapped all over other religions, we should just be quiet when they do it to ours?

I guess you think you are special? Get a clue -- so does everyone else.

Nice gratuitous insult.

This thread has been attacking the students, not phoney teachers.

Personally, I've been attacking both.

Seekers have a right to seek whatever is available.

And if they do so without basic research, or ignore basic requirements, or disregard any part that is inconvenient for them, then they are idiots.

You're free to think studying Kabballah is ridiculous if not done in a way you approve of.

It is not just the way I approve of. Again, it is the way the author of the Zohar intended. Kabbalah is a Jewish tradition. Saying that you don't have to keep the mitzvot or be fluent in Hebrew to study it is like saying you don't need a thorough knowledge of anatomy in order to become a surgeon.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

Explain exactly how it is irrelevant and misleading. From where I sit, it's an entirely relevant explanation of what's being done to Kabbalah. I fail to see how it's misleading either.

The subject of your paragraph isn't trying to study Christianity.

Originally Posted by DocCathode

You said that as long as these folks think they are practicing Kabbalah, that's what matters.

No, that's not what I said. You are ranting about what you imagined I said.
That's why I suggested you take a chill pill (not told you). You're losing your objectivity.

Originally Posted by DocCathode

you tell me to "take a chill pill."

Originally Posted by EvanS

You might want to consider a chill pill.

Originally Posted by DocCathode

What, exactly, is the difference?

I'm paying attention.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

Ah, so because people have already crapped all over other religions, we should just be quiet when they do it to ours?

Nice gratuitous insult.

Personally, I've been attacking both.

And if they do so without basic research, or ignore basic requirements, or disregard any part that is inconvenient for them, then they are idiots.

It is not just the way I approve of. Again, it is the way the author of the Zohar intended. Kabbalah is a Jewish tradition. Saying that you don't have to keep the mitzvot or be fluent in Hebrew to study it is like saying you don't need a thorough knowledge of anatomy in order to become a surgeon.

I never said they had to do or didn't have to do anything. I only said they have a right to study whatever they want.

You're entitled to your opinion. You can whine if you want. You can even continue imagining that I'm saying things that I'm not. You can call people idiots and infer how superior you are, and infer that these teachings are the only truly special teachings. But you can't drive people away from what they want.

[Captain Amazing]

Nobody's saying they don't have the right to do it. I don't think anyone is suggesting there be some law passed banning them from it. I'm just saying that I think they're acting improperly.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by Me

You said that as long as these folks think they are practicing Kabbalah, that's what matters.

Originally Posted by EvanS

No, that's not what I said. You are ranting about what you imagined I said.

I imagined it? Nope.

Originally Posted by Jeffh3000

what these people are doing really isn't even Kabbalah

Originally Posted by EvanS

To them it is, and that's all that matters.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by EvanS

The subject of your paragraph isn't trying to study Christianity.

But, he thinks he is and according to you 'that's all that matters'.

No, that's not what I said.

Sure it is. See post # 24 of this thread.

You are ranting about what you imagined I said.

I imagined post #24?

You're losing your objectivity.

I never claimed to be objective about people crapping on my religion.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

I imagined it? Nope.

Originally Posted by Jeffh3000
what these people are doing really isn't even Kabbalah

Originally Posted by EvanS
To them it is, and that's all that matters.

Oh, that one. I thought you were talking about something more recent.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by EvanS

You're entitled to your opinion. You can whine if you want.

Nice. My arguments are "whining". Gotcha.

You can even continue imagining that I'm saying things that I'm not.

Ladies and gentleman, I present the Post #24 dancers!

You can call people idiots and infer how superior you are,

In that I have never worn an ohm and claimed it made me a Hindu, tied a Buddha to my writs and claimed it would help me attain Nirvana, or otherwise grabbed the practices or symbols of another religion without understanding it, yes I am superior.

and infer that these teachings are the only truly special teachings.

Show me where I did that. I clearly stated that Thelemite Kabbalah, Christian Kabbalah, and Berg's Special K are crap, and that the only valid Kabbalah is thoroughly Jewish. BUT, I never inferred that Christianity does not have it's own elite teachings which are just as valuable and must be studied by observant Christians. Or that Islam does not have special teachings which can be understood only by those fluent in Arabic, learned in the Q'uran and strictly observing Islam. Etc.

I didn't say my religion's teachings were the only special ones. I said that must be studied as they were meant to be.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

But, he thinks he is and according to you 'that's all that matters'.
Sure it is. See post # 24 of this thread.
I imagined post #24?
I never claimed to be objective about people crapping on my religion.

But I'm objective when people like you are deliberately, maliciously putting words in my mouth.

Just because you didn't understand my reference to jeff, you think you can say

But, he thinks he is and according to you 'that's all that matters'.

That was not in reference to someone carrying ants to study christianity but to someone sincerely studying the kabballah.

Also I never said you claimed to be objective about anything. If fact, you are showing us you are having difficulty staying objective. Again I recommend a chill pill, you're losing it.

I'm not crapping on your religion, and if that's what you think you have some difficulties with discerning reality from fantasy.

I will not be drawn into an immature argument of "you said/I said" with you. I don't know what your personal problem is, but I will not be drawn into it.

If you want to debate, fine; but that doesn't seem to be your objective. If you want to whine, call names and play grade-school games, count me out. I've got better things to do.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

Ladies and gentleman, I present the Post #24 dancers!
yes I am superior.

Better hurry up with that chill pill.
And after it takes effect, please consider growing up.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by EvanS

But I'm objective when people like you are deliberately, maliciously putting words in my mouth.

What words in your mouth? Post #24

Just because you didn't understand my reference to jeff, you think you can say
That was not in reference to someone carrying ants to study christianity but to someone sincerely studying the kabballah.

The people who you talk about may sincerely believe that they are studying Kabbalah, are getting things just as wrong as my Christian. If he sincerely believes what he's practicing and studying is Christianity, how is he different from the people you are defending?

If fact, you are showing us you are having difficulty staying objective.

I'm not trying to be objective here. However, I don't think you're familiar with the definition of objective.

I will not be drawn into an immature argument of "you said/I said" with you. I don't know what your personal problem is, but I will not be drawn into it.

I quoted something you said. You denied you said it. I proved you did. How is that an immature argument?

If you want to debate, fine; but that doesn't seem to be your objective.

I'm debating just fine. I keep using a valid analogy. You keep ignoring it.

If you want to whine, call names and play grade-school games

Hopscotch? Foursquare? Exactly what grade-school game am I playing?

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

Berg is perverting, disemboweling, and commercializing a sacred part of my heritage.

Better get used to it. Whining gets you no where.

[tomndebb]

Gentleposters,

While this topic is obviously one in which several of you have a personal interest, there is no reason to forget that you are in Great Debates and not the BBQ Pit. Please refrain from ascribing evil motives to each other lest you trip and begin hurling forbidden epithets. You will also refrain from descriptions of how you might perceive another poster to have acted, already, and from issuing instructions from you as to how another poster should act.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

[EvanS]

Thank you, tomndebb.

[FinnAgain]

Just curious Doc, but what exactly do you see wrong with Uncle Al, the O.'.T.'.O, G.'.D.'., A.'.A.'., etc...?

If it's too much of a hijack for this thread you don't have to answer.

[Lynwood Slim]

I am non Jew who is fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, and knows Jewish tradition reasonably well (I have a doctorate in religion, and specialized in early rabbinic Judaism, though I ended up not going into academia).

My Jewish studies made me a post Christian -- I no longer believe in Christianity. My interest in Second Temple and early Rabbinic mysticism led me to study the Kabbalah (which came into being in the mid-1100's, probably originally in Iraq, but took off in Provence).

If I had a "religion", I would call it the Kabbalah. While parts of the system require the observance of the commandments, it should be noted that the Zohar itself does not refer to the commandments much, relative to its size. (to be precise, I am referring to the main body of the Zohar, not to Tikkunei Zohar, a later stratum, which does rely on the idea of the observance of the commandments).

Very briefly, the Kabbalah is based on Gnostic and Neo Platonic themes. It uses terms from a text called Sefer Yetsirah, a late Second Temple mystical tome, but the Kabbalah reinterpretes those terms to fit into a system of emanations that both describe the inner life of the Godhead, and how the Infinite reaches into creation. This system, called the Sephirot, has astounding implications for spiritual psychology (for all people, not just Jews), and its spiritual insights provide great guidance in mystical meditation. I don't practice the commandments of Judaism, but I study Zohar and other Kabbalistic texts, and I use them to great benefit in my spiritual life.

I consider myself a non-Jewish kabbalist.

[jeffh3000]

Originally Posted by EvanS

Doc, I wasn't addressing you, but jeff, his comments and his attitudes. I also wasn't referring to Berg. Not all who study Kabbalah learn from Berg.


Irrelevant, misleading and an insulting comparison, to boot. You might want to consider a chill pill.

Well as been previously estabished in this thread, we are primarily talking about berg and the celebs that utilize him

My attitudes are based on that of an entire religion that is insulted by what these celebs are doing. Just because you are unware of it doesn't make it not so.

DocCathod pretty much answered all your questions

Why does it matter? Doc proves the point here very simply, it is insulting to jews and the faith of kabbalists.

As for "trying" or sincerity of these celebs, if they were, they would try to really follow kabbalah as opposed to what they are doing.

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Just curious Doc, but what exactly do you see wrong with Uncle Al, the O.'.T.'.O, G.'.D.'., A.'.A.'., etc...?

If it's too much of a hijack for this thread you don't have to answer.

One can debate about the varied orders whose initials you list, but regarding Uncle Al.... Good God, man, what exactly do you see right with him?!?

[DocCathode]

Lynnwood Slim What exactly do you mean by post-Christian? If you've decided that Jesus was not the son of G-d, yet still believe in the G-d of Abraham, why haven't you converted to Islam or Judaism? Being fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, there's no argument you that you have much of the knowledge required to study Kabbalah. As any poster who has read this forum for the past few years knows, I feel it is extremely important to be able to read sacred texts in their original languages. You catch all the nuances, the many layers of meaning, and can interpret their exact meanings for yourself instead of relying on somebody else. I do wonder how much you miss due to not thinking of yourself as a Jew and seeing G-d and the world in Jewish terms.

FinnAgain

Originally Posted by Me

I have never seen evidence that Crowley believed any of his teachings. I have seen evidence that he was a conscious fraud who pretended mysticism to get money, sex, and attention.

Considering how many Hermetic texts I've seen which mistake the Greek Hermes for Thoth/Hermes Trismigestus/Thrice Great Hermes I don't have a lot of respect for them.

I have absolutely no problem with AA. Those meetings have saved countless lives over the years. Bill W was a righteous man and great teacher.

BTW

Although nobody has said so, it occured to me that people reading this thread might think I'm saying 'None of these people are fit to study Kabbalah! They aren't qualified and holy like I am.' I want to make it clear that I am not qualified either. I am not fluent in Hebrew or Aramaic. I am not nearly knowledgable enough of the Talmud. I am manic depressive. I have attention deficit disorder. This means that I lack the emotional stability and purity, and the concentration required by Kabbalah.

[EvanS]

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

Well as been previously estabished in this thread, we are primarily talking about berg and the celebs that utilize him

My bad, jeff. Earlier in the thread that wasn't clear and not knowing Berg (but knowing many sincere students some of whom are celebrities) I missed that. Frankly, I cannot eruditely comment on Berg and his students. Might I assume they are an equivalent to Sun Myung Moon's "Christianity?"

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

My attitudes are based on that of an entire religion that is insulted by what these celebs are doing. Just because you are unware of it doesn't make it not so.

Being insulted is a choice. I've found that it's an uphill, thankless battle to rail against something one cannot change. But if that's how you want to spend your time, have at it!

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

DocCathod pretty much answered all your questions

heh, heh, At this point I wouldn't touch that with a 1920's style death-ray....
(I had questions?)

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

Why does it matter? Doc proves the point here very simply, it is insulting to jews and the faith of kabbalists.

I don't get it. Every religion and field of study gets insulted by someone. It's just a fact of life. And just as you have the right to be insulted (if you are) or feel sympathy for those you consider real kabbalists or for jews in general, they have a right to do what they do and call it what they wish, whether they are dead wrong or whether through their own methods they have discovered a functional short-cut to kabbalistic enlightenment. They will reap what they sow; and from what I understand, sloppy kabbalistic study can have devestating consequences, no? (Not insinuating the wrath of G_d or magical intervention necessarily, but a misunderstanding of principles that can lead one astray.)

Originally Posted by jeffh3000

As for "trying" or sincerity of these celebs, if they were, they would try to really follow kabbalah as opposed to what they are doing.

Many are. Some may think they are. I think the appropriate rail s/b against those who mislead people, not against the celebrities, who may be victims.

Remember? "Don't punish the victims?"

I think you and I should be clear now. Thanks for calmly pointing out the stuff I missed instead of going on a rant.

FWIW, and to clarify my position (which was hacked to pieces because of a misinterpretation), and to address the OP:

1. It is not ridiculous for celebrities to study kabbalah.
2. It's actually complementary that they think enough of an ancient jewish field of study to try to involve themselves.
3. People get misled all the time; better that we spend our time guiding them back into a productive path.
4. People got a right to study what they wish.
5. People even got a right to reinterpret things that have been "set in stone." Some one of them may be right.
6. Hi OpalCat!

I guess we just disagree.