I just got finished watching Kill Bill I and II and they left me pondering whether or not if I invested many years in the martial arts if I would be any more capable of defending myself than an equivalent amount of time spent at Boxing, or “street fighting” Has anyone ever conducted any sort of serious research to determine if martial art convey a superior hand to hand ability over less formal forms of fighting assuming an equivalent conditioning level? If so which systems are considered to be superior?
Being purely reliant upon boxing is not a good idea. Simply because if you get in a street fight with someone and you end up on the ground, your pretty much screwed. If the other guy has any kind of Judo or Jiu-Jitsu background, you’d probably end up with a broken arm or worse pretty quickly.
Cross-training is the best option. Know enough of everything so that regardless of the situation you’re put in you will know how to escape safely.
Or just kick them in the groin or liver. That’ll put them to the ground pretty quickly.
Just my personal experience, but here goes.
If you don’t know some kind of grappling technique you’re screwed in a real fight.
I was a wrestler in high school and kept with it in college for a few years and I could regularly kick the pants off my friends who were “black belts”
Well, I have no real world experience with this.
However, back when I was still actively doing Hap Ki Do, my instructor was a 7th degree black belt, as well as having a 3rd degree black belt in kempo karate - he stated, time and again, that if he was up against a really good boxer, he would be hooped.
YMMV
Kicking employs FAR more musclepower and a MUCH longer reach than boxing. That said, if there’s head-to-head unarmed bareknuckle combat between Bruce Lee and a fast heavyweight like Muhammad Ali with both in their prime, I’m still giving the edge to Ali. The height and weight differences are too much in the boxer’s favor.
You can consider boxing (along with wrestling) to be martial arts themselves. Boxing is definately not “informal” - there’s a lot of technique to learn before you get any good at it as well as discipline to make it work. There’s really no such thing as street fighting as a style either. Street fighting is simply any kind of fighting with no rules almost always illegally. You and 5 buddies with baseball bats attacking an old woman swinging a purse at you could be called street fighting. Most people who street fight aren’t very good anyways - they just know when to gang up and jump you. The ones who are good are either very mean tough guys by character and/or actually do have some kind of formal background training.
There are no formal studies indicating which style is best, there is no best, but at least a few people from every style will claim theirs to be the best. You’d be smart to learn a little of many styles since all your attention focused one one will leave you with big gaps. Other than that you might want to train for what happens in fights most. They don’t go 12 rounds with rests every few minutes and refs breaking up clinches, nor do they happen on mats with no interferance from onlookers until someone taps out.
I’d say you’d be best off learning how to hit really hard really fast before the other guy swings, know how to stay on your feet and get back up if you do go down, and also how to get the hell outta there as soon as you have the opportunity. A legal weapon might be easier though. Best defense of course is learning how to stay out of trouble in the first place.
Also in response to some of the other posts here, there’s a HUGE difference between a cage fight between the greatest of style A vs the greatest of style B assuming rules X,Y, and Z and me fendling off a group of 3 overly aggressive panhandlers at the ATM late at night. Ali’s superior punching reach matched against Karelin’s awsome power and ground control contrasted to Bruce’s blinding speed and conditioning mean nothing for the average dude on the street.
Ditto. There is a lot that the traditional (Oriental) martial arts could learn from boxing.
Most traditional styles (tae kwon do, tai chi’ chaun, aikido, et cetera) focus a lot on stance, balance, and form (or at least, they should) but tend to ignore the more dynamic aspects of an actual fight. One of the key elements of boxing is movement; in order to maintain a defensive position, you must move, your feet must be in constant motion, you must be prepared to duck and weave and block. Your opponent isn’t going to come at you with a single punch, or an expected combination. Boxing, on the other hand, focuses only on upper body punches, and leaves the entire area of grappling, ground fighting, and kicking as out of bounds. If someone who knows what they are doing starts kicking at a boxer or a judoist takes them to the ground, the odds are they they’ll keep them at a range where punch-throwing does no good.
The style I last studied–called Go-Ju Shorei Kifaru–was a combination of traditional Okinawian kenpo, Shao-Lin Gung-fu, Ju-jitsu, traditional American boxing, savate, and balls-to-the-wall street combat. (The instructor was a former ghetto kid, ex-Marine, and ex-Henderson, NV cop from St. Louis.) Most formal Oriental MA training (and for that matter, sport boxing) isn’t going to be any more effective than an experienced streetfighter than a Nerf bat, for the reason that those training forms are limited to a specific venue and/or take years of daily study to master. (If you think that you can execute a spinning backkick to the head in a barfight, you are a exquisitely trained or in major delusion.)
If you want to learn how to fight, study krav manga or some other “defensive” fighting form. If you want to learn a “martial art” then study at a dojo. Nothing wrong with that; just be aware that no bar brawler is going to be impressed with a black belt, nor your ability to crack through a block of ice. It’s a rare specimen that is capable of both.
Stranger
I’ve studied Judo, Karate, JKD, Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, Kali, Muey Thai and am now doing classical boxing.
One thing I didn’t see above was what I feel is the most important thing boxing teaches you: how to GET hit. I’ve never taken so many hits as I do in boxing. When you box, you hit and get hit, often and hard. You learn that while a good hit hurts, you’ll live, and you keep your guard up and go right back in the fight. You also learn how to deflect hits or take hits in spots that don’t hurt as much. The one thing you can be pretty certain of when fighting a boxer is that it will NOT be a quick fight. They know how to deflect damage, they know how to cover up, they know how to offer you small targets, they know how to keep their eyes on you even while getting smacked and they know how to stay on their feet.
The gloves and training allow you to experience something that is about as close to a real fight as possible. As mentioned above, it is a movement art. You are moving constantly, ducking, weaving, circling, etc. And when you see an opening you need to be able to translate your body motion into a solid punch- and it is VERY difficult to go from a side-step defensive move into an immediate punch. You learn how to do that and you are doing well. This is what boxing is all about- learning how to hit moving targets.
While I agree with some of the grappling statements above, I disagree with the kicking comments. A boxer isn’t going to freak because you are kicking them. Boxers fight close-in - it is pretty hard to kick someone who is right in your face. And don’t think you can keep them out and at a distance suitable for kicking - a boxer will close the gap, even if they get hit. And once they are inside your circle, ouch! Watch Thai boxers- kicks are often accepted and replied to with a punch. Kicks are great, but the best way to deal with a kicker is to get nice and cosy with them.
With grappling I find it funny that the one thing people do is STOP hitting. They try and manuever, hold, lock, twist, etc. But you don’t see people trying to hit each other very much. A boxer will go with what they know, so if they end up on the ground, I expect they would have sense enough to keep trying to punch you in the face until you rolled off them. The punches will be less powerful, but they will still come. And I’m sure they know how to bite, too (remember Tyson’s ear fetish?).
Yes, of course, cross-training is the best. Period. But c’mon folks, boxers are mean, fast and tough. Probably the worst thing you have to fear from a boxer is that they will start the fight. The guys I box with don’t mince words. Piss them off and they start throwing.
-Tcat
Boxing isn’t a “street technique”. It is a sport with all kinds of rules of combat. Also, you wear gloves. Relying on strictly boxing skills would probably get you killed in a “true street fight” as, most untrained fighters are going to try to grapple you and get you to the ground. (or gang up). That’s not to say a boxer couldn’t knock the crap out of someone. A good boxer is going to know how to land one hell of a punch… but he’d better hope he lands it first.
Also, many martial art styles are also “sports”. I.E.: Ti Kwan Do and Judo. Both emphasis scoring points. A person entering a REAL fight with that mindset is not going to last very long. Also, flashy spin kicks, while looking cool, are VERY ineffective in a real fight.
As stated before, for purposes of SELF-DEFENSE, a cross-training is probably the best way to go. Every style can have advantages in certain situations. Also, usually by definition, self-defense looks to disengage and get away, rather than take on 6 bullies. Some styles will suggest arm breaks, leg breaks and eye gouges, etc… but all as one strike options to incapsitate your attacker as quickly as possible. Not as an audition for a Van Damme movie.
Various Judo/Ju-jistsu techniques are great for women (or the strange male situtation) where you are grabbed or choked. Karate styles usually focus on blocks, punches and kicks. There are some cool throws between the two as well.
And Boxing can be useful in learning to throw a clean punch and counters.
So, IMHO, if you are interested in SELF-DEFENSE, then experiment with some diffent styles, take what you like and toss what doesn’t work for you. And remember, if you are really attacked, the best laid plans always fail in battle. So if all else fails, RUN!
oh one last thing: Never Box a Boxer. Never wrestle a wrestler. And never pretend to be a Master Ninja vs. a martial artist. They all have weaknesses, exploit them.
The goal of boxing is to score points and/or knock the other guy out.
The goal of most martial arts is to adhere to a particular style or form.
The goal of self-defense is to survive the fight.
If your goal is to survive whatever fight you might happen to get into, I would recommend going to your local YMCA or contact your local police department and see where you can take basic self-defense classes. There you will learn how to avoid getting into a fight in the first place (really, this is the best way to survive the fight), and, if you do have to fight somebody, how to survive it without necessarily killing the other guy.
More important than the art is that you actually experience something akin to real “fighting.” If boxing has an advantage it’s because you spend a good amount of time actually trying to hit someone and actually trying to avoid being hit. You need to experience these physical movements while under the effects of an adrenaline surge. No amount of kata will ever do that for you. In some dojos you could probably become a brown belt and not have the first clue how to fight. Grappling arts are similiarly successful because in such schools you spend alot of time in full contact.
I believe that both boxing and martial arts are effective at self-defence. The both give you confidence, teach you how to take a punch and most importantly not be scared to take a punch.
If you’ve seen street fight videos floating around on the Internet, it’s usually two guys with no skills swinging at each other (strangely they never kick). Usually once a guy gets hit, he’ll turtle and proceed to get punched and kicked.
You’re presupposing that all martial arts really teach you how to take a punch. I would argue that training in most karate dojos would negatively impact fighting ability because you expect a fight to proceed like a kata. You’ve probably learned to override your instincts just enough to inhibit them, but haven’t retrained them to do anything effective. This is not the case with ALL dojos.
I would agree with you on the katas. I was thinking in terms of all the things you learn in sparring. Of course, I guess some martial arts might not spar at all.
Not to turtle, when flurried. Learning that all those fancy kicks take too long to execute and get telegraphed. That sort of thing
I know there are a number of Kung Fu styles that continuously develop and focus on the most efficient way of fighting. I myself have been raised on Judo, but one that I briefly practiced was Wing Tsung, and that was incredibly effective. It just looks at all martial arts out there, looks at all we know from physics and biology, and continues to combine every bit of that knowledge into increasing efficiency. The original form was thought out by a woman who wanted to defend herself and teach other women and other weak people to defend themselves in the harsh, at times anarchistic circumstances of rural mainland China. One of the philosophies was that you should be able to defend yourselfs even if you are weak or ill, and the drive for efficient movements comes from there. I found it very inspiring and if I hadn’t moved, I might still have gone there. Bruce Lee followed this school too by the way. From what I learnt of him through various bios, he was originally a real old fashioned trouble seeking street fighter with a lot of real battles on his name.
I was taught the basics of Wing Tsung by a couple who were both very advanced, and they were frequently hired by our police department to teach them control and defense techniques. I think I was even asked to promise not to discuss any particular techniques, but I’ve later seen some of them being used by policemen on trouble making drunken kids very effectively.
There are a number of things mentioned here that are worth emphasising. Kicking isn’t a very effective technique, except up to and including knee-level, and it is relatively easy to counter. However, once someone has mastered kicking to the level of an advanced Tae Kwon-Do fighter, he or she becomes incredibly dangerous. Many kicks are easy to defend against (a small step backwards allows you to both evade many kicks and catch the opponents leg at a dead point to boot, after which a lot of mayhem could ensue), but Tae Kwon-Do has some very lethal ones that are pretty hard to defend against, and they are often so quick that you don’t even see them coming. In the circles I hung out, Tae Kwon-Do and Wing Tsung were considered two of the most lethal forms of combat.
Also worthy of note is that knees are very, very fragile little things. A well placed kick will displace the discs and take out a boxer in one … kick. I know it sounds like a movie cliché what with Roadhouse and all, but it’s also quite simply true. All masters of all martial arts that include kicking will know about this. Low kicks are fast and hard to defend against - you need a very quick response. Boxers won’t often see this coming either, simply because they’re not focussed on defending their knees.
A boxer also isn’t used to having his arm caught and twisted into submission, dislocation, fracture and so on. He isn’t trained to defend against such techniques - boxing is also already ritualised to a relatively high degree. A lot of very effective things aren’t allowed in there, after all (a blow to the adam’s apple is one, very effective method - but also lethally dangerous, someone may suffocate and may need to have another breathing hole cut out if a few hard attempts at swallowing won’t clear the pipes. Something perhaps most suitable for rape situations).
In the end, a lot also just depends on the toughness and experience of the fighters involved, no matter what form of combat they’re following.
As a kid I had mostly Judo training, from a very early age on. My parents let me do this sport for a very specific reason - to teach me how to fall. As a kid, I fell a lot and always hurt myself too. 
And it worked (and it still works - I can highly recommend parents to put their kids on Judo for a few years), and it isn’t so violent, comparatively anyway. I also learnt how to carry someone disabled or unconscious out of a fire there, it was quite impressive to carry my teacher on my back as a 10 year old
For similar reasons as to Judo (which I was taught as a means of preventing violence rather than administering it), I support the principles of combat of Wing Tsun: dealing with an aggressive situation involves 10 levels of skill, of which only 8-10 involve actual fighting. The first 1-7 levels involve aggression management, evasion techniques and so on. I haven’t been in combat since I was 14, so I guess I’m ok at those first levels and have no real idea of the rest 
(I don’t hang around in pubs or get drunk much, either - guess that’s one efficient way of evading combat).
And on a less serious note, one of the most fun games I know that are related to martial arts, by the way, is Tekken. In Tekken 4, there is also a real boxing character, that is quite fun to play with. And you really recognise all sorts of different styles in the characters, it is very well done. If you haven’t checked out this series, are into Martial Arts, and have a Playstation, you’ve definitely missed out on something.
This game comes especially recommended to girls - I’ve met quite a few who very quickly discovered they thoroughly enjoy beating the crap out of particularly the opposite sex, should they be unsuspectingly holding the other joypad.
This is an excellent point. My main martial art was kick boxing (in a couple of different guises), with a small amount of boxing and kung-fu thrown in. Kick boxing teaches quite well how to take punishment, but boxing taught this far more … hmmm … vigorously.
Well, I think a strong kicker does have a brief opportunity to stop a boxer as he closes, mainly by delivering a hard kick to the legs or knee, or bollocks. When I fought boxers (I was an excellent kicker, but a poor, slow boxer) I could often keep them at bay by mangling their legs. Of course in a real fight, it’s not so easy to pansy about the ring while gradually screwing someone’s legs up at a distance. Not easy at all, in fact.
Yes, plus kicks are slow - especially when the kicker is trying to go for the head. There’s a big risk that the kick will be caught and the kicker become a captive audience…
Given a choice of any martial artist to face in a genuine fight, I would take pretty much any one in preference to a well-trained boxer.
My opinion: you’d be better served overall weight training/endurance training, and some confidence. I speak from personal experience. I got into a program for a couple years of weight training and martial arts - the weight training you carry around for everyone to see - it’s a great deterent and can aid in a fight. The martial arts, will help in a fight, but the same people are going to mess with you.
The martial arts/boxing track is good, but you want to know the truth? No guy with less than 30 pounds on me ever really did any damage to me in a fight, even sparring. In Judo, it was even more apparent. There are some small in stature guys who are muscle machines that can do in anyone, but they are few and far between.
I guess I’d take an inventory of my frame and try to match style - an honest assesment of your strength and frame size wouldn’t hurt. Either way, you’re nothing without endurance training - so if things go bad you can outrun the enemy
“Begin with boxing as a base, add other skills to that” seems to be the consensus, here.
Right or wrong?
You’ll generally hear from people who compete in MMA that grapplers tend to win fights, but that’s because the rules of the events favor grapplers. In a non-tournament fight with no rules, there’s a lot to be said for knowing dirty tricks in addition to whatever fighting styles you have at hand.
Of course, there’s also something to be said for the concealed carry permit/small firearm combo.