Savage: AIDS patients must pay for treatments for those they infect

In his current column commenting on the ethics of barebacking while HIV positive, Dan Savage says:

While inveighing at the current policy of forbidding partner notification by state health officials as a way to curb the spread of AIDS, Savage goes on to propose that someone who infects another should be liable for half the cost of the necessary anti-retroviral medications now required to sustain life. Savage models this after child support: screw around and make babies all you want, but know the quality of your life will suffer if you have eighteen years of child support payments to make for every baby you sire. He envisions placing responsibility for AIDS infections in the same way, speculating that one reason for irresponsibility is:

By putting the cost for AIDS meds in play in the risk-benefit calculation, Savage feels that the tide could turn in favor of healthier behavior, and "…Trojan won’t be able to make condoms fast enough. "

This rationale appeals to the personal responsibility conservative in me.

I think it’s workable.

I read the same column and was thinking about starting this GD thread myself. I’m with Bricker in that it appeals to my notion of people taking responsibility for their actions, including the costs of them. As a straight woman, I don’t expect the government to pick up the tab for me if I get pregnant because I don’t use birth control; it seems to me similarly unreasonable to expect the government to pick up the tab if I get AIDS because I chose not to take basic precautions. Yes, I realize pregnancy is only changed one’s life, not ends it.

Is Savage’s idea unreasonable?

CJ

Brilliant idea. Savage remains one of, if not the most reasonable voice on gay politics, having the balls to call out things like this.

Individuals having to pay for life-saving medication.

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Forgive my ignorance, but would it be possible to test who infected who? Child support has become a clear cut thing with DNA tests, but imposing HIV support in a community that is (at least in part) promiscuous without a definite clear cut way of determining who infected who would be unfair. And probably very counter productive in that it would cause the infector to be very well motivated to deny all, making tracing of other of their infected partners even harder.

I can’t believe people are looking to that invective spewing, maniac for policy. How about if Savage has to pay for the health-care of everyone who is gay-bashed as a result of his ramblings. Might as well pay for the health care of the returning veterans as well since he supports the war so rabidly. Then we can have the tobacco companies pay for the lung cancer and emphasyma treatments of their customers.

That said, I think that people who have unprotected sex while they knowingly have AIDS should be thrown in jail. I don’t think that crystal meth users have the money to pay for much of anything.

It takes two to tango, doesn’t it? Surely the infected person also participated in a choice to forego safe sex? (OK, in most cases)

Knowingly putting others in risk of infection with AIDS should be punishable on par with any other kind of attempt at manslaughter, including payment of any costs to the victim, unless he was aware of the risk, in which case it’s his own responsibility entirely.

DanBlather, they’re talking about Dan Savage, the openly gay sex columnist, not Michael Savage, the openly stupid yellow journalist.

I wasn’t aware that AIDS patients had such deep pockets that made them worth going after. What are you going to do, garnish their future earnings?

Is he only calling for gay people to pay for other infected gay people, or is he calling for any person who passes on the virus to pay for other people?

First of all, I think that an infected person who knowingly “rides bareback” without informing their partner is pretty much committing manslaughter, if not first degree murder.

Now, to be accurate, some relevant quotes are missing:

In other words, contrary to SentientMeat’s worry, he’s not suggesting that people that contract HIV not be treated.

And that addresses Princhester’s question.

It seems to me that this is a question of whether deterrence would be effective. Savage’s contention is: when people who spread HIV “are having their wages docked for drug-support payments, other gay men will be a lot more careful about not spreading HIV,” which he likens to child support. IMO, there’s a fundamental disconnect between the reason child support exists and why Savage thinks child support exists. Child support, at least in my mind, is more about the quality of life of the innocent party (the child), not about deterrence. I don’t think the possibility of paying child support serves to deter casual sex in the least. If, similarly, his proposal doesn’t act as a deterrant, there’s no debate to be found here.

This is an interesting question: is there evidence that AIDs patients go out of their way to infect others?Years ago, I read of a man who (supposedly) was responsible for spreading HIV/AIDS around the USA. His name was Gaetan Dugas, and he was a Canadian airline steward. Supposedly, he had sexual partners in every city he visited, and went out of his way to infect people. At the time of his death (from HIV), he had infected over 1300 people.
Such behavior (if true) is reprehensible…it is just as if this guy (Dugas) went out and shot all of these people.
Has the gay community ever come to terms with this kind of horrible behavior?
One would think that the emergence of this nw, deadly strain of AIDS would have provoked some careful though (and behavior changes).

Dan. Not Michael.

Savage Love. Not Savage Nation.

Cough.

I think this is the main hole in the idea. The principle is sound, but I have to imagine that the number of people who would be liable under the proposal who would also have the assets (and in the case of the new strain, even the lifespan) to make even a dent in the cost would be so vanishingly small that even the relatively modest cost of setting up a program would be a waste of resources. I’m also not convinced that it would be a deterrent – it’s not like there’s a shortage of straight men impregnating single women despite the massive infrastructure in place to collect child support payments.

Partner notification, on the other hand, is a no-brainer for anyone who honestly wants to stop the spread of the disease. If you can’t identify the vector you can’t even try to interrupt it.

I know I thought he was talking about Michael. Whew!

Manhattan is right. This one falls under the ‘Steve Dallas rule of legal action: Never sue poor people’. If there’s no juice there no point in squeezing.

A lawyer may correct me though but intentionally putting someone in danger of infection without their knowledge could be actionable in any event, couldn’t it?

And partner notification is so much of a no-brainer I’m surprised there’s any debate. What does non-notification lead to other than more infections?

I can tell you right now that it would not be likely to make a difference. Read some research on risk-taking among gay men, from any of the various cohorts being studied around just North America or Europe. Sexual risk behaviour isn’t deterred by punitive threats, but by power and will. You have to give them a reason to believe in the need to be safe, and quite frankly, from the research I’ve read from the VIDUS and Omega cohorts in Vancouver and Montreal, the Ontario Men’s Survey, and the cohorts in San Francisco and New York who’s names I can’t remember (plus a whole bunch of other studies from all over the world), gay men engage in risk behaviours because they genuinely aren’t worried about getting sick. Many of them feel that even if they do contract HIV, they will still be fine because of HAART. Further, many cite safe-sex fatigue as a reason, meaning that they are simply tired of having to be careful (which is a pretty dumb excuse, frankly). And probably the most significant reason is many younger gay men (who were either quite young in the eighties or not even born when AIDS first arose) simply have not had the experience of seeing their friends and lovers die of AIDS. They just don’t see it as something to worry about.

Now, I am on the side of everyone here in saying that knowingly having unprotected sex while positive is reprehensible and should face penalties (in fact, I’m aware of court cases where men have been tried for just that). However, even if this were a good idea fiscally, I don’t think it would work preventatively because of some of the reasons listed (denying contact, claiming it was someone else that infected them, etc). HIV can be traced by strain, but the vast majority of HIV case in North America are HIV-1 subtype B, so unless they show a new strain or some sort of mutation it might be tough to pinpoint who exactly passed the disease to whom. The best way to do it is examine social networks and look for patterns. Further, the men who engage in barebacking consistently show a lack of concern for the risks, and I just don’t think this would change their outlook, since there’s only so much money you can take from them.

Prevention only really works when you get people to buy into your message. That takes something significant, like a charismatic leader, or, sadly, a series of negative events, like the death of a large number of HIV-positive people, before others will start to listen.

Incidently, two more points: the story of Gaetan Dugas is no where near definite, and is one possible scenario explaining the spread of HIV (though probably only a very small part of it is true). And also, for partner notification, the main reason generally used for not informing partners stems from the social stigma traditionally attached to HIV and AIDS, wherein letting anyone know you have it leads to discrimination and so on. So the fear was always that if one knows that people will find out that one is positive (once discovered by testing), one will be less likely to come forward for testing in the first place, and since HIV can remain so quiet and unnoticed in the body for a long time, it behooves public health officials to do what they can to get people tested. I disagree, because I believe the rights of the potential victim (for lack of a better word) outweigh the rights of the tester, so long as there is a definitive guarantee of privacy otherwise (officials can inform partners, but no one else).

I’m wierded out by the fact that this thread went all the way down to Manhattan’s post before someone nboted the ridiculouslness of this scheme, financially speaking. It has a certain “savage” (groan) justice to it, but I noted the implausability of the effort right off.

Is it? Why limit partner notification to AIDS? What if you have a known family history of a genetic defect and your female partner gets pregnent?

Besides, as **Princhester **pointed out, is there a way to KNOW who infected a person?

As much as I go for the presonal responsibility line, too, I just don’t see that this is workable. And there is the matter of the “victim” here being personally responsible for his/her conduct as well. Safe sex, guys. Safe sex.

Not at all, John. There’s been notification for other STDs in various jurisdictions for decades. It’s not like it would be breaking new ground here.