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  #1  
Old 03-29-2005, 12:05 AM
Rilchiam Rilchiam is offline
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Daughter calls her mom a bitch---is that 100% bad?

I was recently part of a discussion in which some guy described an incident in his household. His wife and 18 y/o daughter were embroiled in an argument which culminated in Daughter saying, "You can't tell me what to do, you BITCH!" and storming off to her room.

In a blind rage, Dad followed, broke the door down (literally), grabbed Daughter, twisted her arm behind her back and "spanked her ass until my hand was red with broken blood vessels in my palm." Allegedly, Daughter has not defied authority since.

Well. Whew. Wow. Way to keep your cool, Dad. Now, first and foremost, I want to establish that I think anyone calling their mom a "bitch" is something to be merely shrugged off. But I'm not quite convinced that it warranted this reaction.

Someone asked, "Would you have reacted the same way if this was your 18 y/o son?" He responded that he would have, but admitted that "an 18 y/o son might have made me regret my actions."

But what I'm getting at here is that I don't think a daughter calling her mother a bitch is analagous to a son doing the same.

Women settle their differences with words. That's how it is. They get their frustrations out, relieve tension, and then they're able to come to an agreement. Daughter calling Mom a bitch was disrespectful, certainly, but OTOH, Mom might have been doing some namecalling of her own.

In fact, I think in a way, women are actually better at reining themselves in than men are. When men start to get emotional, they're liable to just keep going until someone bigger and stronger, or someone with a badge or gun, makes them stop. Whereas when women get into a dispute, they're more likely to recognize the point of no return, and back off from it. So when Mom and Daughter are going at it, it might be better for Dad to simply take cover and come back when the smoke has cleared.

But if a son calls his mother a bitch, that's a different matter. See, the thing is, kids relate one way to their same-sex parent, and another way to their opposite-sex parent. There was a thread years ago in which a male poster described a dispute he'd had with his late-teenage son, during which the son decided he was going to take it to a physical level. Someone responded, "Well, he's at the age where he's trying to establish himself as an alpha male. Not necessarily a bad thing, as long as you make it clear to him that you are still the alpha male in your house."

And it's often the same thing with mothers and daughters. Late-teen girls want to be the queen bee, while mom says, "Waitaminut...I'm still the queen bee around here!" In both cases, it's important to establish that the daughter or son still has to defer to the same-sex parent, or else move out. But I don't think that has to be done at the price of breaking their spirit entirely.

So, getting back to a son calling his mother a bitch. I know it's a double standard, but I really think that's unacceptable in a way that a daugher doing the same thing is not. Again, an SDMB reference, to a thread in which someone was describling their brother's(?) rebellious stage, around age 13. He was apparently verbally abusive to Mom...for a little while, until Dad lowered the boom, telling him, "You don't talk to your mother that way. You don't talk to any woman that way. And most importantly, nobody talks to my wife that way."

What I'm trying to say here is that mother-son and father-daughter are unequal relationships. Not that mother-daughter and father-son are equal, of course, but in those cases, they have similar mindsets. So if Daughter calls Mom a bitch, that's more like she's saying, "I'm my own woman, not a carbon copy of you!" She may be opposed to Mom for all the wrong reasons, but Mom probably understands at some level how she feels. Whereas Son calling Mom a bitch* is unlikely to be inspired by anything except a lack of respect for women. He might feel that Dad is a threat to his individuality, but there's no reason why Mom would be.

So am I right or wrong? Is it possible, or even desirable, for someone to get through adolescence without ever clashing with their same-sex parent? And is "bitch" really the Deplorable Word from a daughter to a mother?

*And anyway, if he's calling his mother a bitch, what's he saying about himself?
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  #2  
Old 03-29-2005, 12:41 AM
Rune Rune is offline
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So he spanked a grown woman’s, albeit his daughter, ass huh? – not sure “albeit” goes there.
  #3  
Old 03-29-2005, 12:51 AM
CrankyAsAnOldMan CrankyAsAnOldMan is offline
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I guess this is more an IMHO thing.

Spanking an 18-year old does not seem acceptable to me.

I also don't accept the idea that her gender, or her relationship with her mother, justifies speaking in such a manner. Neither daughter nor mother should be hurling epithets. Change the genders of the parent and/or child and I'd feel the same way. Sure, parents and children clash. They should not handle it by acting like ill-behaved 3rd-graders.

The whole episode would horrify me--I can't imagine why this guy is even telling the story.
  #4  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:00 AM
Sarah Woodruff Sarah Woodruff is offline
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I think the physical violence of the father would damage his relationship with his daughter far more than the 'bitch' insult would damage her relationship with her mother. What I mean to say is, the girl was wrong to say that, but the father was "wronger" to smack her one for it.
  #5  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:12 AM
Eonwe Eonwe is offline
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Well, you didn't ask, but I'll second the shock at the father's reaction. Physically breaking the door down? Spanking his 18 year old until he hurt himself? That's more than a bit scary.


Quote:
Whereas Son calling Mom a bitch* is unlikely to be inspired by anything except a lack of respect for women.
I wouldn't necessarially jump to that conclusion. Many folks (male and female) use 'bitch' when someone's being a jerk, and that's all it means. "That woman is a jerk." I'd hesitate to assume that there was serious inter-gender disrespect without putting it more in context.


But, IMO, profanity towards parents is not in any way an acceptable way to express anger and frustration; I don't know what I would do about it, but I'm sure that I'd not tear down any parts of my home.
  #6  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:33 AM
Zoe Zoe is offline
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The young woman was wrong to call her mother a bitch as long as she was within the mother's home turf and certainly if she was living there. She needs to either bite her tongue, choose her words more assertively or move out. I don't think it was the end of the world, however.

The father committed criminal assault on his daughter and should have to face the consequences of his actions.

This puzzles me:

Quote:
He was apparently verbally abusive to Mom...for a little while, until Dad lowered the boom, telling him, "You don't talk to your mother that way. You don't talk to any woman that way. And most importantly, nobody talks to my wife that way.
In this particular situation, I'm wondering why the mother waited for the father to lower the boom. This may have been sent a subliminal message to the son that women are too weak to fend for themselves.

I don't really make that much of distinction between how male children and female children behave with either parent.
  #7  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:16 AM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Well, right out of the box I have to qualify that I am from the rural south and that may color my feelings on the matter somewhat. What I mean to say is that I have never physically encountered a family (that I am aware of) where a child could talk to a parent that way under any circumstances. It just isn't on the menu, and doesn't even come up as an option.

Whatever attempts are made to break this down for the sake of discussion, we are still talking about the progeny/progenitor dynamic here. Parents create a child, nurture a child, finance the child's continued existence, and train a child to do what's right by whatever laws are paramount in the family and societal circle. We are talking about a complete lack of respect here.

Maybe there's a difference between telling your mother she's acting like a bitch and that she is a bitch, I wouldn't know. The reason I wouldn't know is because I never tried either one on to see if it would fit. My teeth aren't perfect, but I'd prefer not to shit them out some 36 hours after addressing my mother as 'bitch', but that's just me, I'm a different breed of cat.

But you know what? Having been raised this way, I think that I am a better person for it. And I know that today, when I overhear a child being disrespectful to a parent or any adult figure it sets me on fire in places I didn't know existed, and if any child of mine addressed me or my spouse in that way it would turn out bad. Would I kick in a door? I doubt it, but so what if I did? Who's getting hurt? I'm the one who has to replace it, and the show of anger will undoubtedly indicate how serious the matter is.

And if we're comparing our family to a pack of dogs as far as offspring testing their boundaries then consider this: What kind of message is sent when a child breaches this boundary and the situation is not adequately addressed? Whatever respect the child did have is certainly diminished, correct?

There's corrective action and then there is abuse. This, in my humble opinion, is not abuse, regardless of what the Department of Family and Children Services has to say on the matter. Abuse is what happens when you fail to instill an inherent moral base into a child so that they go out into a world with a flawed behavioral system that gets them into a lifetime of trouble. If you truly love your children, then I think it is your job to equip them with the tools they need to function normally in society. Did Scott Peterson's parents ever use corporal punishment to discipline him as a child? Would it have made a difference? I don't know, but I have my suspicions.

There is no 'one size fits all' policy with dealing out discipline to children. A few of them can be reasoned with. Most of them aren't receptive to verbal reasoning (at least in the beginning).

Maybe I'm just too old-fashioned.
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  #8  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:18 AM
brickbacon brickbacon is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilchiam
Women settle their differences with words. That's how it is. They get their frustrations out, relieve tension, and then they're able to come to an agreement. Daughter calling Mom a bitch was disrespectful, certainly, but OTOH, Mom might have been doing some namecalling of her own.

In fact, I think in a way, women are actually better at reining themselves in than men are. When men start to get emotional, they're liable to just keep going until someone bigger and stronger, or someone with a badge or gun, makes them stop. Whereas when women get into a dispute, they're more likely to recognize the point of no return, and back off from it. So when Mom and Daughter are going at it, it might be better for Dad to simply take cover and come back when the smoke has cleared.
I don't know if this part is true in an absolute sense. Physical fights between women tend to get pretty nasty; probably nastier than most male fights.

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but I don't see anything wrong with what the father did. You probably have more insight as to how serious the problem was, but I don't think it's always wrong to physically punish a kid. I doesn't seem like he makes a habit out of it, and it has apparently changed her behavior. Seems like he made the right move to me.
  #9  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:43 AM
Rilchiam Rilchiam is offline
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Rune: I'm pretty sure you used "albeit" correctly.

Quote:
Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan
I guess this is more an IMHO thing.
Well, I thought about putting it in that forum, but then I figured it wasn't so much as "What would you do?" question as a "What do you think?" However, if a mod wants to move it, that's cool.

Quote:
Spanking an 18-year old does not seem acceptable to me.
Other people said the same thing. But according to him, she now thinks he's The Man, so I guess he got his desired result.

Quote:
I also don't accept the idea that her gender, or her relationship with her mother, justifies speaking in such a manner. Neither daughter nor mother should be hurling epithets. Change the genders of the parent and/or child and I'd feel the same way. Sure, parents and children clash. They should not handle it by acting like ill-behaved 3rd-graders.
I'll get to that in a minute.

Quote:
The whole episode would horrify me--I can't imagine why this guy is even telling the story.
It was part of a literary discussion. People were weighing in on whether a teenage character was justified in his resentment towards his parents. This poster presented it as a "That's what the parents should do!" scenario*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe
The young woman was wrong to call her mother a bitch as long as she was within the mother's home turf and certainly if she was living there. She needs to either bite her tongue, choose her words more assertively or move out. I don't think it was the end of the world, however.
Yeah, I agree with all of that. There comes a point where, if you really find your homelife to be unacceptable, you either deal with it or move on. But some parents don't have a lot of perspective. Anyone who got all the way through their teen years without ever clashing with their parents either had perfect parents, had a retarded development, or simply wasn't human.

And certainly, hurling epithets shouldn't be allowed to continue...but some parents (over)react as if their kid is the only one, ever, in all of human history, to have rebelled against authority. It's not something that should be allowed to escalate, or even continue, but it's also the egg that has to be broken if you're going to make an omelette.

Quote:
The father committed criminal assault on his daughter and should have to face the consequences of his actions.
If it even happened. See footnote.

Quote:
In this particular situation, I'm wondering why the mother waited for the father to lower the boom. This may have been sent a subliminal message to the son that women are too weak to fend for themselves.
Well, I don't remember if the poster gave any detail on that. It could be that Mom did tell Son, "Don't talk to me like that," and he simply laughed in her face. Or it could be what you said. But in either case, his attitude might have grown out of having been getting that subliminal message you mentioned. Which means that Dad's intervention didn't necessarily solve the underlying problem: he might not have come to respect Mom, or women in general, but simply to respect men who were capable of kicking his ass.

Quote:
I don't really make that much of distinction between how male children and female children behave with either parent.
You don't? Because I think I have a valid point there.

When you're in the stage of establishing your own identity, you naturally (if subconsciously) compare yourself to your same-sex parent. Do I want to be like hir? If so how much? And in what way? If I do, can I live up to them? If I don't, how do I go about that? Will I/should I make the same decisions they did, and live like they do? This can lead to a lot of tension. And you just don't look at the opposite-sex parent the same way. They're not as scary or intimidating; you don't hope to be like them, or fear that you will.

*I and two other posters wanted to pursue this further. Actually, my immediate reaction was to call shenanigans; can someone really break a door in half "without even realizing it"? Anyway, the mod told us stick to the lit discussion on the board and take the other matter to email. We did, but SuperDad never answered.
  #10  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:58 AM
The Hamster King The Hamster King is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euthanasiast
...

Abuse is what happens when you fail to instill an inherent moral base into a child so that they go out into a world with a flawed behavioral system that gets them into a lifetime of trouble. If you truly love your children, then I think it is your job to equip them with the tools they need to function normally in society. Did Scott Peterson's parents ever use corporal punishment to discipline him as a child? Would it have made a difference? I don't know, but I have my suspicions.
Spanking your kids isn't evidence of good discipline. It's evidence that you've lost control of the situation.

Raising well-behaved kids is like training dogs. A well-trained dog responds to a nod and a whistle. It's only the poorly-trained dog that you have to beat with a stick.

A lot of parents aren't willing to be strict with their kids. They let bad behavior slide until it gets so extreme that spanking is the only way to get the kid to take them seriously. Well, I suppose it's good they're not letting the kid run totally wild, but it's not what I'd call a stern upbringing.

Quote:
There is no 'one size fits all' policy with dealing out discipline to children. A few of them can be reasoned with. Most of them aren't receptive to verbal reasoning (at least in the beginning).
LOL, in my experience, none of them are receptive to reason, not even the bright ones. But they all instinctively understand dominance and authority, as long as you exercise it consistently and fairly. The key is to establish patterns of obedience and respect when they're little and get those behaviors so ingrained that they become second nature.

The dad in the OP lost control of the situation a looong time ago. Yeah, he's temporarily scared his daughter into keeping her mouth shut. But I bet she still thinks her mom is a bitch ... .
  #11  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:10 AM
Rilchiam Rilchiam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euthanasiast
Well, right out of the box I have to qualify that I am from the rural south and that may color my feelings on the matter somewhat. What I mean to say is that I have never physically encountered a family (that I am aware of) where a child could talk to a parent that way under any circumstances. It just isn't on the menu, and doesn't even come up as an option.
Euthanasiast, I believe you when you say you'd never have used that word, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but are you telling me that you never, ever in all your life questioned your parents' judgment? You never had a disagreement? You were never angry at them?

Quote:
Originally posted by brickbacon
I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but I don't see anything wrong with what the father did. You probably have more insight as to how serious the problem was, but I don't think it's always wrong to physically punish a kid. I doesn't seem like he makes a habit out of it, and it has apparently changed her behavior. Seems like he made the right move to me.
Yeah, well. I believe in spanking, when it's justified, when the parent has control of their temper, when the kid is young enough that they need to have concepts demonstrated to them, and when it's followed up by a discussion about why their behavior was wrong and shouldn't be repeated. What I don't believe in is going all David Banner on a legal adult.

And on preview, what Pochacco said.
  #12  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:11 AM
Odesio Odesio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilchiam
Women settle their differences with words. That's how it is. They get their frustrations out, relieve tension, and then they're able to come to an agreement. Daughter calling Mom a bitch was disrespectful, certainly, but OTOH, Mom might have been doing some namecalling of her own.
I seem to remember a similiar event from my childhood.

Sister: Bicker bicker bicker.
Mom: Bicker bicker bicker.
Sister: Bitch.
Mom: SLAP!

Quote:
In fact, I think in a way, women are actually better at reining themselves in than men are. When men start to get emotional, they're liable to just keep going until someone bigger and stronger, or someone with a badge or gun, makes them stop.
That certainly hasn't been my experience. In my experience women are more likely to shout, cry, and show strong emotions during an arguement. For the most part I haven't observed men getting physically violent when they get emotional. I might be atypical but when I get into heated arguements I keep my voice level and I tend to stop showing any emotion. I think it's something I picked up from my father because he did the same thing. The best part is that it drives the person who's argueing with you nuts and you always come out looking better if you remain calm.

Quote:
Whereas when women get into a dispute, they're more likely to recognize the point of no return, and back off from it. So when Mom and Daughter are going at it, it might be better for Dad to simply take cover and come back when the smoke has cleared.
Women might be less likely to get physical but that's not quite the same thing and backing off before the point of no return. Some of the worse behavior and bullying I saw in high school were among my sister and her friends. Not only could they make the lives of other girls just miserable but they're behavior towards one another often made me wonder why they were friends. What I'm getting at is that there are plenty of women out there who know how to push your buttons to cause as much harm as possible.

Quote:
But if a son calls his mother a bitch, that's a different matter. See, the thing is, kids relate one way to their same-sex parent, and another way to their opposite-sex parent.
If I called my mother a bitch I would have expected her to slap me across my face just as she did with my sister. I guess it just depends on your household. I can't recall any instance where I seriously considered physically confronting either one of my parents. The last time I even hit my sister I was 15 or so and I stopped because I was afraid I was getting to the point where I could seriously cause her harm.

Quote:
Whereas Son calling Mom a bitch* is unlikely to be inspired by anything except a lack of respect for women. He might feel that Dad is a threat to his individuality, but there's no reason why Mom would be.
Are you kidding? I remember getting in trouble because my mother would tell me I couldn't do something and I'd go on to pick a fight. What can't I go over to Chris'? Are we doing someting later? Can you at least give me a reasonable explanation for why I can't go over? My mother had just as much ability as my father to deny me what I wanted and I butted heads with both of them at times. Actually I butted heads more with mom then I did with dad.

Quote:
So am I right or wrong? Is it possible, or even desirable, for someone to get through adolescence without ever clashing with their same-sex parent? And is "bitch" really the Deplorable Word from a daughter to a mother?
Every adolescent needs to conflict with their parents. It's a necessary part of growing up and figuring out who you are. It doesn't have to get as ugly as physical confrontations but some conflict isnt' a bad thing.

Yeah, calling your mom a bitch is pretty deplorable.

Marc
  #13  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:20 AM
Shakes Shakes is online now
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I think the deal is more female to female than it is Mother to Son or what have you.

Kind of like how it's "OK" for one black man to call another black man the N-word.

And yes I realize that when two black gentlemen are calling eachother that, they're not usually fighting but still, it parallels.


Not to highjack or anything but I found this intresting:

Quote:
In fact, I think in a way, women are actually better at reining themselves in than men are. When men start to get emotional, they're liable to just keep going until someone bigger and stronger, or someone with a badge or gun, makes them stop. Whereas when women get into a dispute, they're more likely to recognize the point of no return, and back off from it. So when Mom and Daughter are going at it, it might be better for Dad to simply take cover and come back when the smoke has cleared.
It's funny I can't tell you how many fights I've seen when I used to work at a bar or when I've been out drinking; when guys DO get to that breaking point and they do duke it out ten minutes later they're back in the bar acting like they are the best of friends. Almost as if the "fight" itself was a bonding experience. (I'm ashamed to admit I've been that guy myself) In that respect I'd have to say that guys are almost always better at putting "tiffs" or "issues" behind them than women are.

I also think guys are better at not let the agruements esculate to that level in the first place because we know where it's likely to lead. (i.e. a sock to the nose)
  #14  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:22 AM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pochacco
Spanking your kids isn't evidence of good discipline. It's evidence that you've lost control of the situation.
I think of it as a necessary evil. A good parent doesn't want to spank a child, nor do they do it to gain pleasure in reasserting their dominance. They do it because the child has lost control, and it needs to be made clear that a loss of control on that level will not be tolerated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pochacco
Raising well-behaved kids is like training dogs. A well-trained dog responds to a nod and a whistle. It's only the poorly-trained dog that you have to beat with a stick.
I think this is a bit backwards. If you're advocating beating poorly-trained dogs with a stick (or if you're making a comparison between dogs and children), then which of the two is more likely to get the meaning of the punishment? I wasn't attempting to suggest that reasoning with a child and reasoning with a dog were the same thing. I don't think it's in the same ballpark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pochacco
A lot of parents aren't willing to be strict with their kids. They let bad behavior slide until it gets so extreme that spanking is the only way to get the kid to take them seriously.
And by that time it is probably too late. The thought process is that they can get away with it sometimes, depending on mom or dad's mood. A lack of respect for any adult (especially parents) is a serious matter that must be addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pochacco
The dad in the OP lost control of the situation a looong time ago. Yeah, he's temporarily scared his daughter into keeping her mouth shut. But I bet she still thinks her mom is a bitch ... .
Of course, you can't stop a child from thinking her mother's a bitch, but I bet she keeps it to herself next time. You can still think your mother is a bitch but show her the respect that she deserves. I did.
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  #15  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:25 AM
Shakes Shakes is online now
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Apparently, one thing guys aren't good at (at least this one) is posting at 3:40 in the a.m..

Pretend I previewed my last post please...

Oh, I also wanted to chime in to say that the Dad is a total freak and should be locked away somewhere.
  #16  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:39 AM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilchiam
Euthanasiast, I believe you when you say you'd never have used that word, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but are you telling me that you never, ever in all your life questioned your parents' judgment? You never had a disagreement? You were never angry at them?
Daily. I was a teenager. It is a fact that once you become a teenager and know everything that your parents are not to be trusted. I'm not suggesting that a child should not express opinions or emotions contrary to what a parent is suggesting/demanding of them (or that they should suppress the natural hatred of lines like "Because I said so!"), but to completely lose respect for your mother to the point that you refer to her to her face as a bitch is completely incorrect.

As an example:

Mom: "I said no, you're not going to the Van Halen concert."
Euth: "Can you give me one good reason why I can't go?"
Mom: "A good one, no. I just decided that you're not going."
Euth: "That's messed up!"
Mom: "Yeah, I guess the world's gone to camp-town hell."
Euth: "Mom, seriously, this is crap."
Mom: "Be careful."

And there it is, the two words that signified that I had reached the limits of my boundaries. Do you see the difference?
  #17  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:49 AM
Rilchiam Rilchiam is offline
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The difference between what? You were expressing frustration, and your mom told you you weren't even allowed to vent.
  #18  
Old 03-29-2005, 04:06 AM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilchiam
The difference between what? You were expressing frustration, and your mom told you you weren't even allowed to vent.
When did she do that? She wasn't railing against my right to vent, she was addressing my tone. Perhaps we'll just have to agree that you and I grew up in two different worlds and that is why we view this subject differently. I was not stifled, strangulated in expression, or refused a voice. I was beginning to raise my voice in a disrespecting manner and indicating to her that I thought her decision was 'crap', and thus worthless. She called me on it.

I'd like to take this moment to point out that my mother and I have a fantastic relationship, envied by many who have been around us together. I'd like to think that her instilling those traits in me are a big part of that reason.
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  #19  
Old 03-29-2005, 04:25 AM
No Disguise No Disguise is offline
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A slap from the face from the mother would have been reasonable; this guy's way out of line.

I'll bet you $20 that father/daughter relationship has taken a permanent turn for the worse. She's going to resent that for years, and for the short-term, she's going to act out in any way she can that won't get her beat.
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Old 03-29-2005, 04:50 AM
Rilchiam Rilchiam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euthanasiast
When did she do that? She wasn't railing against my right to vent, she was addressing my tone. Perhaps we'll just have to agree that you and I grew up in two different worlds and that is why we view this subject differently. I was not stifled, strangulated in expression, or refused a voice. I was beginning to raise my voice in a disrespecting manner and indicating to her that I thought her decision was 'crap', and thus worthless. She called me on it.

I'd like to take this moment to point out that my mother and I have a fantastic relationship, envied by many who have been around us together. I'd like to think that her instilling those traits in me are a big part of that reason.
All right. Sorry if I offended you. Yes, I think we did grow up in two different worlds. My family was so dysfunctional, it's impossible to say if it was Han who shot first, or Greedo, or the flippin' cantina bartender. For your sake, I'm glad yours isn't/wasn't like that.

No Disguise, I also wonder how it affects her choice of partners.
  #21  
Old 03-29-2005, 05:06 AM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Originally Posted by Rilchiam
All right. Sorry if I offended you. Yes, I think we did grow up in two different worlds. My family was so dysfunctional, it's impossible to say if it was Han who shot first, or Greedo, or the flippin' cantina bartender. For your sake, I'm glad yours isn't/wasn't like that.
Not at all, and thank you.
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Old 03-29-2005, 07:20 AM
fessie fessie is offline
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Rilchiam - I found your observations and theory really interesting. And I agree about male vs. female use of "bitch".

Sheldon Kopp's End to Innocence, Facing Life w/out Illusions had some really interesting stories and theories about becoming disillusioned with one's family during adolescence as a part of the maturation process. I don't recall anything about aggression, but it's been a while since I read it.
  #23  
Old 03-29-2005, 07:49 AM
Jaade Jaade is offline
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My world is the same world that Euth grew up in.

I am 29 years old and I have still never - ever- called my mother a bitch to her face. Firstly, I do not believe in calling people you love names. In my opinion, if you've had to sink to the level of name calling, you've lost the argument anyway. Disagreements happen, I argued with my mother a lot growing up. Secondly, if I'd called my mother bitch, I'd still be looking for my teeth on the floor. I was raised to believe that this kind of behavior was completely unacceptable and I agree.

I don't know that I think a father should spank an 18 year old girl, but I'd hesitate to call the girl an "adult" - aside from legally speaking, as Rilchiam stated.

Rilchiam, I was raised to believe that your elders deserved respect, if simply because they were your elders. This particularly applies to anyone who might have had a hand in raising you. I don't mind if my daughters diagree with me, but there's a tone - as Euth said - that is acceptable and there's a tone that is not acceptable. My mother did not hesitate to let me know when my tone with her was inappropriate. It wasn't to keep me from ever disagreeing with her, it was to remind me of my place in the family and to remind me that she deserved respect.

No Disguise, I'd rather my father spank me than have anyone slap me in the face, ever. I don't understand how being slapped in the face is < being spanked.

In short - yes - in my opinion the daughter was 100% wrong for calling her mother a bitch. Changing the gender does not make a difference either. A daughter shouldn't call her father an asshole or a jerk and a son shouldn't call his mother a bitch. Any way I look at it, it's disrespectful and inappropriate.
  #24  
Old 03-29-2005, 07:58 AM
irishgirl irishgirl is offline
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That's not on.
Totally inappropriate punishment, especially for an 18 y/o.
I don't think "it's not ok for you to lose your temper and swear, but it's ok for me to lose my temper, destroy a door and hit you" is the message he really wants to be sending.

People say things they don't mean and without thinking when they're angry. Yes some of those things can be hurtful, but I'm sure that everyone has had an experience of saying something that they didn't mean while in an argument, and then feeling terrible about it. Use those feelings of guilt and shame to get an apology and a promise of better behaviour, don't wallop them.

My family is all about the temper tantrums...we're a very vocal, loving family who prefer to slam doors, cry and scream for 5 minutes than to seethe silently for hours. In my family, everything is out in the open, heart-on-sleeve stuff, leading to many heated "discussions". I've said a LOT worse to my parents, always in anger, never actually meant.

Their response was to wait until everyone had calmed down and I felt awful anyway, and then asking me not to speak to them like that. Cue heartfelt apologies and a week of me doing my chores without being asked.
  #25  
Old 03-29-2005, 08:28 AM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is online now
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If it's appropriate for the dad to beat a grown woman like that, then it's not appropriate for her to call the cops and have him arrested for it.

I'm not comfortable with that.

The question I haven't seen asked so far: Was the mother being a bitch?
  #26  
Old 03-29-2005, 08:58 AM
CrankyAsAnOldMan CrankyAsAnOldMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilchiam
The difference between what? You were expressing frustration, and your mom told you you weren't even allowed to vent.
Well, this isn't direct communication, but I don't read her comments like that at all. I believe she was warning him that he was getting close to crossing a line (and indeed, in some families, calling someone else's principles or ideas "crap" would be pushing it).

If she were truly refusing him his right to vent, wouldn't she say something more like "How dare you argue" or punish him for speaking?
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:12 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is online now
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If I refrained from calling someone a name because I thought I might get hit, that wouldn't be me showing them respect, that would be me being afraid.

I have never called my mother a bitch. She can be bitchy at times (who isn't?), but I respect her too much to call her names. On the other hand, if I did call her a bitch she would be very hurt but would never strike me. My parents didn't hit.
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:27 AM
plnnr plnnr is offline
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He was wrong for striking his daughter for calling her mother a bitch.

What he should have done is show her the door and tell her, "No one speaks to my wife like that, including you. Come back when you can be more civil and not until then. You're an adult now, and actions have consequences."

This coming from someone else who was raised in the South and would never, ever even think about using that type of language in reference to my mother.
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:33 AM
Anaamika Anaamika is online now
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Chiming in:

18 is way too old to be spanked. The last time I even got slapped was at 14 or so. And for uttering a word? Even a bad one?

That being said, I told my parents "Go to hell" and "Shut up" once in my life. And my parents put me through hell. I would justification to say much, much worse, but would never dare. I was frightened of them. Bitch is a bit much but the kid has not been raised correctly if at 18 she thinks it's even a little OK to call her mom that.

But I still imagine the fright when her dad stormed down the hall, broke the door down, and beat her ass raw. Real mature - who's the adult here?
  #30  
Old 03-29-2005, 10:35 AM
margin margin is offline
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Damn, this guy beats his daughter till he breaks blood vessels in his hand, and nobdoy is really that shocked over it? That wasn't a spanking: that was a beating. She didn't get a lesson about manners: she got taught a lesson about respect. She's afraid of him now; who else is she afraid of? Sure, she shouldn't have called her mother a bitch---maybe. Was her mother being a bitch? Her dad was certainly being a child abuser, although there has to be a more accurate term.

If the mother stood by and didn't do anything, I'd say the daughter might have been right. Although a father who beats someone for heated language probably isn't just beating his daughter. Why didn't the mother intervene?

The father should be in jail.
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:49 AM
Triskadecamus Triskadecamus is offline
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I think you have to know a lot of things to decide about the daughter, and how serious the act was. I think you have to know a lot about mom too. But any man that beats his daughter so hard he injures his hand is criminally abusive and certainly not going be engendering a filial respect reaching out longer than his arm.

When you have to use force, it is because reason has already failed. The person in the relationship who is responsible is supposed to be the parent, and the failure, assuming reasonable reading of the incident, is the now adult child's lack of manners. That didn't happen this afternoon. I have grave doubts that this young lady had been entirely respectful and polite to her mother prior to this one day.

Strict means "closely in accordance with standards" not "enforced by brutality and violence". Every physical punishment is a failure on the part of the person responsible for teaching behavior. Not every failure is abusive. Folks fail a lot, in raising their children, and forgiveness has to go both ways. But violence, however minor represents an absence of compassion, reason, and roll modeling. Those are better teaching methods. Eighteen is too late to teach manners. That failure needed to be addressed at age two.

So, basic bad news: If you want your children to be respectful and polite, you have to be respectful and polite for their entire lives. If you cuss, and hit them when they cuss, they will cuss your name when you are not around, and eventually call you out and call you names to your face. If you, a father, hit your daughter, she will learn to expect that from men. When she meets a man in the future, she will consider an absence of violence to be an absence of caring, or strength. She will find someone else. Someone who will hit her just like daddy did.

And you will be living in a nursing home she chose because they "Hardly hit them much at all!"

Tris
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  #32  
Old 03-29-2005, 10:50 AM
Homebrew Homebrew is offline
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Cut the bullshit about the genteel Southern Upbringing. You aren't better because you were raised in the rural south and your dad whupped you good. I grew up in that environment myself and I'm decidedly not raising my son that way. Respect is earned. My son, who is 7, doesn't get whipped; he gets firm verbal guidance and punishments, when needed, are in loss of personal freedom. His teachers say he's one of the nicest, most polite, helpful kid in the class. I suspect my relationship with him will be one of mutual respect, far more so than the one I have with my father.

The father in the OP should be arrested for battery. The young woman should leave as soon as possible.
  #33  
Old 03-29-2005, 10:55 AM
shy_kat shy_kat is offline
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To those who think that the father instilled respect and showed her the "he's The Man":

If I were this girl, I'd keep out of his way and "be good" until I moved out (6 months?). After which, I'd probably cut myself off entirely from my parents.

He might be losing a lot here...
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Old 03-29-2005, 11:27 AM
gytalf2000 gytalf2000 is offline
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If the Dad really did give her that spanking/beating, he might have some other things to worry about. The daughter just might be biding her time, waiting for the proper time to retaliate! (Probably not, but it is certainly possible, isn't it?) She certainly is not going to try anything physical (not while he is awake, anyway), but she might try to slip something like rat poison into his food. After a humiliating and painful experience like that, who knows what is on her mind? Good behavior may be exhibited just to distract "Dear old Dad" while she plans her revenge!
  #35  
Old 03-29-2005, 12:11 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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I'm going to respond to the OP without looking at the rest of the thread because I want to give out my "initial reaction."

Firstly, no, I think you are completely wrong. A daughter saying that is the exact same thing as a son saying it. Furthermore in my experiences as a teenager I found the idea that "women settle things with words" to be completely false. In my experience teenage boys were more likely to start a fight over a brief yet highly anger-inducing incident (an intense argument, a shoving incident etc.) While girls (who in my school experience engaged in fist fights JUST AS MUCH) would tend to start fights via the "gossip ring" in which the two combatants gossiped about each other a few months in advance and then finally it boils over in a classroom and the two girls go at it.

In my experience both teenage boys and girls are more than capable of fighting and for both of them I think words fail to settle certain arguments very frequently.

As for the specific story here, I wouldn't have spanked my 18 year old daughter. I believe in spanking children, and taking away privileges as well. However I think there comes a logical point where as a *parent* spanking no longer works, and then there even comes a point where "grounding" or "taking away privleges" no longer works. I think 18 is about the time when taking away privileges no longer works. At that stage I'd inform my *adult* daughter that she is going to obey the rules of the house because it is not *her* house. And that she is going to give her mother and myself a decent level of respect, if she doesn't like it, she can start looking for independent housing.
  #36  
Old 03-29-2005, 12:23 PM
catsix catsix is offline
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Quote:
Euthanasiast said:
We are talking about a complete lack of respect here.
Then we might as well keep in mind that not all parents are worthy of and deserving of respect.

Quote:
My teeth aren't perfect, but I'd prefer not to shit them out some 36 hours after addressing my mother as 'bitch', but that's just me, I'm a different breed of cat.
If my mother's being a bitch, I feel free to tell her so. If my father's being an asshole, I inform him of it. Being someone's offspring does not mean you have to tolerate being treated like dirt.

Quote:
And I know that today, when I overhear a child being disrespectful to a parent or any adult figure it sets me on fire in places I didn't know existed, and if any child of mine addressed me or my spouse in that way it would turn out bad.
If you don't know why that's being said, I'd venture that the best thing to do is not assume you know that the parent (or adult) is a wonderful person and that the kid/young person is just being a disrespectful shithead. Maybe there's a good reason for what they're saying.

Quote:
This, in my humble opinion, is not abuse, regardless of what the Department of Family and Children Services has to say on the matter.
This, what he did, is a crime. He physically assaulted an adult without any valid reason of self-defense. She'd have been completely justified in using any force necessary to make him stop.

Quote:
brickbacon said:
I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but I don't see anything wrong with what the father did.
He committed a crime. You don't think that's wrong?

Quote:
Jaade said:
Rilchiam, I was raised to believe that your elders deserved respect, if simply because they were your elders.
I suppose this is why I disagree with people in this thread. I don't think that merely having been breathing longer than me automatically entitles anyone to respect.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:48 PM
meanoldman meanoldman is offline
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I'll fish around in pockets for 2 cents.

plink-plink

Respect is something that must be earned. A person's age or that they were involved in your birthing does NOT grant them respect in itself. Love must be nurtured or it _will_ die. Authority is granted by someone -to- someone or something else. Use of force creates fear or an awareness possible bodily harm. And though it has its own irritations, I've raised my now 16 y.o. son that way and I don't think I'd change a thing if there were do-overs.

I grew up in the midwest (no genteel southern crap, as someone else noted). My father would often hit us with his hands, with his belt or with a fresh, green switch. I toe'd the line outta fear, not respect. Whether the result of his beatings or something else, I do not use foul language, nor do I call my mother names. My mother, OTOH, seems to have no difficulty at all in calling me a Sonofabitch when I don't jump quick enough to suit her. The fact that my mother calls me a sonofabitch, I do actually find that amusing.

As others have said, I agree that the father in the OP way lost control. And if he's not up on charges, then he should be thinking about counseling.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:53 PM
Cheesesteak Cheesesteak is online now
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To be fair, catsix, these parents also had to have sex without effective birth control AND make enough food available so that the child didn't starve to death.

In Euthanasiast's example, his mom didn't want him going to a concert. Reason? Apparently none. While you or I might think this is crap, and that mom is on a power trip, he is forced to "respect" this arbitrary decision. Perhaps there's more to the story, but the snippets we have suggest that she was full of it and he called her on it.

I'm with you, good parenting earns its own respect. Yes, sometimes punishment is necessary, and I'm not against corporal punishment if necessary, but you can't just beat respect into your children.

One of the points about corporal punishment in children is that is is supposed to be used as a way to teach a child the proper way to act. Not as a way for an angry parent to work out his or her frustration on his kid's ass. Nor is it a way to get back at a child who did something wrong to you. Hitting your child in anger is absolutely wrong and teaches nothing. A father breaking down a door and injuring his own hand wailing on his daughter's ass is exactly what happens through anger.

An 18 year old is, IMHO, a legal adult, and can call anyone a bitch if she so chooses without being subject to physical battery. I don't give a rats ass where she lives, who's food she eats, or who's paying her tuition. Money doesn't give you the right to beat someone.
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:55 PM
Excalibre Excalibre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethilrist
The question I haven't seen asked so far: Was the mother being a bitch?
I've been waiting for someone to ask that.

Dude thinks it's okay to hit - and not just hit, but spank - an adult woman. Does anyone seriously doubt he does that to his wife when she pisses him off? And yeah, I understand that for a man to beat his wife was acceptable at some times in some places. Doesn't make it true.

A kid getting mad and calling her mother a bitch doesn't compare to an adult getting mad and beating someone - child or adult. This man's reaction demonstrates the lie in the claims from those who beat their children that they're not doing it in anger - the man's description (he broke down a door without knowing it?) shows that he was blinded by rage. I wonder how often he does this kind of shit to strangers - or is he only inclined to beat on his family members?
  #40  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:09 PM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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[QUOTE=Homebrew]Cut the bullshit about the genteel Southern Upbringing. You aren't better because you were raised in the rural south and your dad whupped you good. /QUOTE]

"Be careful."
  #41  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:14 PM
papergirl papergirl is offline
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I don't know the dynamics of the family in question, but I can tell you that in my family, calling other family members names is NOT acceptable.

My kids are welcome to voice their opinions, to disagree, to argue their points, as long as they are civil about it. The general rule is pretty simple: I don't call them names or treat them like idiots, they do the same for me. If my child called me a bitch, I'd smack his/her mouth, undoubtedly. And my kids KNOW that's what I'd do--I haven't spanked any of them more than a few times in their lives, but they know that there are certain behaviors that, if you use them with other people, are going to end with you getting a deserved slap in the face, just as there are certain behaviors that will land you in jail or get you kicked out of school.

Why on earth didn't the mom handle this? I would be pissed if my partner intervened in such a way--this is MY child, MY argument, I'm a grown woman, and I get highly annoyed with another adult steps in and takes over the behavior management. (This is a soapbox topic for me, so I won't even get started.)

The dad was abusive and doesn't sound like the type of man I'd want parenting my children.

On preview, re: catsix:
I have never called my mother a bitch to her face. Not because I've never thought she was being bitchy, but because if I think that, I can find a better, more effective way to deal with her behavior and maybe change it. Maybe you can't find a better way, but my own kids should be able to, and I expect them to be intelligent and mature enough to do it.

And re: cheesesteak:
I guess my take on it is this: Her dad shouldn't have done what he did, but I would support her mom smacking her mouth. Yes, she's 18, but she's living in that home and (I'm assuming) being supported by those parents, and unless she's willing to move out and be self-supporting, she should avoid name-calling. Now, her mom may have called her a cheap slut first, we don't know, and the "bitch" may have been a response to that or to something equally provactive. In which case, I'd label the whole family as co-abusers and give up the arguments.
  #42  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:18 PM
Annie-Xmas Annie-Xmas is offline
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Abuse is never right, and it's my opinion that both the daughter and the father were abusive (hmmm, I wonder who she learned it from?). By spanking her, he is showing her it's okay for a man to physically abuse her. I wonder what type of man she'll end up with?

As for what she called her mother, apparently nobody ever taught her that you criticize people's actions instead of calling them names, and you don't call them nasty words.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:37 PM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
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I'm with Annie. ( wishful thinkin'..... )

1. She's 18. She could have had him arrested.
2. Breaking blood vessels in the palms involves a palm strike of such velocity against a fairly firm surface that, to do it against the buttocks involves force that likely left bruising on the victim's buttocks. Down south that may be showin' respek, up here it's called assault and battery. Were I to learn of this from the 18 year old, I would encourage her to press charges.
3. She will marry a man who says he loves her and it's only for the best and she has it coming to her, then beats her ass. Apparently that is what she has been taught is acceptable.
4. Homebrew is correct, IMHO.

To pull out that accurate old chestnut, children learn what they live. I have never called someone close to me a bitch. It wouldn't occur to me to be so verbally abusive.

And, as said up there, wonder where she learned it?..........
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:59 PM
Cheesesteak Cheesesteak is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodypoet
I guess my take on it is this: Her dad shouldn't have done what he did, but I would support her mom smacking her mouth. Yes, she's 18, but she's living in that home and (I'm assuming) being supported by those parents, and unless she's willing to move out and be self-supporting, she should avoid name-calling.
I could understand if the mom slapped the daughter in response to being called a bitch, that's a reaction and limited in scope. Perhaps not a great decision, but understandable.

I don't like the idea that the finances determine who can and cannot be legitimately hit. As if a person living at home has less personal rights than a person who lives elsewhere. I let you live in my home, so I can punch you in the face? No thanks.

If the daughter is disrespectful, discuss it, if she doesn't straighten out, kick her ass to the curb (figuratively, of course). The fact that the parents support her gives them the right to pull that support, not to beat her.
  #45  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:05 PM
Cliffy Cliffy is offline
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OK, there are gender dynamics here that I don't have experience with given that I'm a guy, but IMO there's a lot of chicken-littling in the thread about the father's reaction. It was horribe, certainly, but if this was an isolated incident I'm inclined to say it's not abuse. There ain't nobody who's never lost their shit before, and having your wife called a bitch is one of the least-absurd reasons to do so. (The last of the maybe half-dozen times my mother hit me it was because I ate all her fruit salad.) It trivializes people who are victims of truly abusive relationships to say that their suffering is the same as a woman who got hit once -- for too long, certainly, but not viciously. The fact that the father bragged about it is more disturbing.

As for calling people in the family names, meh. There are certain terms beyond the pale (well, one, and it starts with "C"), but in my house swear words are just words. One of the proudest moments in my family was when my 11-year-old sister called the after-school daycare provider a bitch. Why? Because she was being a bitch. Authority has no right to demand respect -- that is something that may only be earned -- because if you're a fuck-up, why should I listen to you and get myself harmed in the process? And if that is so, why should parents or older sibs be any different? I never want someone to refrain from calling me an asshole if I deserve it, or I'll never get any better.

--Cliffy
  #46  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:34 PM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak
I don't like the idea that the finances determine who can and cannot be legitimately hit. As if a person living at home has less personal rights than a person who lives elsewhere. I let you live in my home, so I can punch you in the face? No thanks.
That's absurd; no one is suggesting anything about punching anyone in the face. I hope we can all agree that face punching is way out of line. No one in this thread has mentioned anything about punching a child in the face.

Also, spanking a child (18 or not) for a complete lack of respect isn't signifying that the child has fewer personal rights. That's just silly. However, I do admit that I hold the view that a child's rights are less than a parent who works hard to pay the bills and feed and clothe said child. If you want complete and unrestrained freedom and full adult rights, they're yours when you are able to sustain yourself financially. If you live under your parents roof and eat the food that mom and dad's 40+ hour work week provides, you had better be aware that a certain level of respect is automatically required. To me, this is just common sense, and I wouldn't live in a home where I bust my ass to support my children only to have one of them show me disrespect on that level.

Sure, the child could press charges on the father. The father could get into hot water. Then there is a situation where the child doesn't live there anymore. Maybe they live in a foster home now. Ask a child which they prefer. I'll take a much deserved ass whipping any day over having to move out because I pressed charges against dad (who more than likely blistered his hand on her jeans than anything else) as a direct result to a deserved spanking.

And please, do not pretend to assume how this will destroy the daughter's choices in men down the road. Just because you are spanked doesn't destroy your ability to function as a human being somewhere later on. The human mind is much more resilient and complex than that. My mother beat me like a piñata once when I mocked her once. I don't go looking for women to beat me now, and one never has...

Well, unless I couldn't remember the safe word.
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  #47  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:47 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
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Grew up in the South. Once, at the nadir of a nasty custody fight my parents had over us kids, as my mother was trying to guilt me into living with her so that she could get higher child-support payments from my dad, I shouted, "Fuck you!" at her.

It was great.

No, it wasn't great, but it stopped the guilt trip, a guilt trip which had been going on for about eighteen months by that point; and it finally broke through to my mom what she was doing to me and to all of us kids by using us as pawns in the struggle. (My father, much better at the game than she, was able to continue using us as pawns without our realizing it for several more years). So, although in a sense I regret having yelled at her, in another sense I think it was absolutely necessary for our relationship not to be permanently soured by the whole deal.

I realized at a fairly young age that I was more fit than my parents, and that if they tried to hit me, I could hit back harder. I think this was a perfectly healthy realization to have: from that point on, my parents couldn't take my obedience for granted, but had to give me reasons. And, knowing the reasons for their demands, I could understand the adult world faster, internalize these reasons.

Arbitrary commands just beg to be broken. Explained commands are far likelier to be internalized.

Not all kids will work this way. But if my dad had tried to hit me, I would've fought back; and if I failed, I would've pressed charges.

Daniel
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Old 03-29-2005, 02:50 PM
papergirl papergirl is offline
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I don't disagree with your opinion that financial support doesn't mean a right to beat someone, Cheesesteak. I'm just pointing out that if she is still living with her parents as a child (as opposed to renting the apt over the garage), she's not completely in the "I can say/do/act however I please" group quite yet, and frankly, I don't think my kid will ever get mature/self-supporting enough to get away with calling me a bitch to my face. I think her dad was wrong for a number of reasons. I also think she was wrong for a number of reasons.

If I call ANYone--you, my momma, a stranger on the street--a bitch, I fully expect to get my face slapped. So I guess I put the mouth-smack very close to being a natural consequence for name-calling of that caliber. That's why I highly, HIGHLY recommend to my kids that they refrain from calling people names...you can't behave that way and expect a pass on it every time.

I don't think the daughter is doomed to a life of abuse and abusive partners by this one act of abuse on Dad's part. However, if it's a pattern with the family, if this type of fight is the norm for them, then I'd predict problems down the line.
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Old 03-29-2005, 02:56 PM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
Not all kids will work this way. But if my dad had tried to hit me, I would've fought back; and if I failed, I would've pressed charges.

Daniel
So you'll only press charges if you lose the fight? I'm sorry, but I can't respect that.

If you're physically strong enough to handle yourself in a fight with your father, then you need to be mentally strong enough to handle having your ass handed to you without involving the law in a situation you probably helped to escalate. That's part of being a man, IMHO.
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The lion might be the king of the jungle, but if you air drop his ass into Antartica, he's just a penguin's bitch.
  #50  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:58 PM
Euthanasiast Euthanasiast is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodypoet
I don't disagree with your opinion that financial support doesn't mean a right to beat someone, Cheesesteak. I'm just pointing out that if she is still living with her parents as a child (as opposed to renting the apt over the garage), she's not completely in the "I can say/do/act however I please" group quite yet, and frankly, I don't think my kid will ever get mature/self-supporting enough to get away with calling me a bitch to my face. I think her dad was wrong for a number of reasons. I also think she was wrong for a number of reasons.

If I call ANYone--you, my momma, a stranger on the street--a bitch, I fully expect to get my face slapped. So I guess I put the mouth-smack very close to being a natural consequence for name-calling of that caliber. That's why I highly, HIGHLY recommend to my kids that they refrain from calling people names...you can't behave that way and expect a pass on it every time.

I don't think the daughter is doomed to a life of abuse and abusive partners by this one act of abuse on Dad's part. However, if it's a pattern with the family, if this type of fight is the norm for them, then I'd predict problems down the line.

Exactly.
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