Underage drinking, restaurants, and YOU

[chaoticbear]

If I am in a restaurant, I know that I can not legally order alcohol. Is it still illegal for me to drink it, as in if someone else orders it for me?

If it matters, the states in question are TX and AR.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

IANAL, but I'd say it would still be illegal. It's usually also against the law for an adult to provide a minor with alcohol in any way. On the other hand, as an outstanding exception, Wisconsin does allow minors accompanying their parents in taverns to consume alcohol.

[Turek]

Depends on who the someone is. I live and grew up in Texas, and sometimes when I'd go out to eat with my parents when I was a teenager, they would order a daquiri for me. They had to order it FOR me, but there was nothing wrong with me having it.

I doubt seriously if this applies to anyone who isn't your parent.

[chaoticbear]

If it's a boyfriend who's old enough to be my parent? Heh. Looks like we'll just have to see how it goes. We're not looking to go out on the town and get rip-roaring drunk, we're just going to a Mexican place that he says has great margaritas.

[NillyWilly]

Originally Posted by chaoticdonkey

If I am in a restaurant, I know that I can not legally order alcohol. Is it still illegal for me to drink it, as in if someone else orders it for me?

If it matters, the states in question are TX and AR.

In PA:

How does the law deal with teenage drinking?

In Pennsylvania, a person under 21 commits a crime if he or she drinks, possesses, transports, buys or even tries to buy alcohol.

From this site.

Laws definitely vary state to state.

[Rhubarb]

Originally Posted by NillyWilly

In PA:

How does the law deal with teenage drinking?

In Pennsylvania, a person under 21 commits a crime if he or she drinks, possesses, transports, buys or even tries to buy alcohol.

From this site.

Laws definitely vary state to state.

I'm pretty certain this is true of Texas as well, at least it is according to the several billion public service spots they've run on televisio and radio over the past year or two. Chances are, if 2 margaritas are ordered, you'll both get carded. YMMV.

[Zsofia]

In South Carolina, I believe it's illegal to buy alcohol for minors. You used to see signs about it up all the time, I'm not sure I've seen them lately though.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by chaoticdonkey

If I am in a restaurant, I know that I can not legally order alcohol. Is it still illegal for me to drink it, as in if someone else orders it for me?

If it matters, the states in question are TX and AR.

I'm not specifically conversant with the laws of those particular states, but in my experience in states where I've lived and/or bartended, it is absolutely illegal for someone else to order or purchase alcohol to be provided to a minor. In California, these regulations are enforced vigorously against the bar or restaurant in question. A single violation can result in a license being suspended for months and fines in five figures. At the bar/pool hall I frequent in Pasadena, for instance, you may not order alcohol at all unless everybody in your party is carded and is of age. Period. People bitch, but Jakes was shut down for three months for a completely incidential violation (some guy bought a beer for his 19 year old girlfriend).

You do this, you are putting the bartender and the bar on the line. So...don't.

I'm sorry liquor laws are so screwed up, but don't eff it up for everybody else, especially honest business owners.

Stranger

[Shalmanese]

In Australia, IIRC, the law is if your:

a) over 16
b) accompanied by a parent or legal guardian
c) drinking alcohol with a meal

then it is legal.

[AngelicGemma]

Originally Posted by Shalmanese

In Australia, IIRC, the law is if your:

a) over 16
b) accompanied by a parent or legal guardian
c) drinking alcohol with a meal

then it is legal.

It's the same here in the UK.

[Oswald Bastable]

Originally Posted by AngelicGemma

It's the same here in the UK.

An interesting (or not) difference between UK & US alcohol laws is also that it is not illegal for minors (in the UK the legal drinking age is 18) to possess or use alcohol, but it is illegal for them to be sold it.

OB

[BwanaBob]

Originally Posted by Oswald Bastable

An interesting (or not) difference between UK & US alcohol laws is also that it is not illegal for minors (in the UK the legal drinking age is 18) to possess or use alcohol, but it is illegal for them to be sold it.

OB

When I was in High School in New York State, it was supposedly common knowledge that the law was the same as this UK law. Never found out if it was true.

It wouldn't have mattered.

If you got caught with beer by a policeman, and you were underage, they'd make you dump it out. If you argued, you'd find yourself taken home, and then you could tell your parents all about the law; that would go over real well.

[Lambo]

In South Dakota you can drink at age 18, if you are with your parents, or your spouse (who must be 21 or older). It is, obviously, up to the establishment if they want to allow this--the only times I have encountered this is in rural or small town bars, rather than larger, popular bars in more populated areas.

[CynicalGabe]

In the US:

It does not matter if you are:

-eating a meal
-with a parent
-anything else


If you are under 21, it is illegal for you to posess, consume, or otherwise have it. You, your parents, the waiter, and the restaurant all face legal sanctions. There are no exceptions.

[Padeye]

CynicalGabe, http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol-info...inkingAge.html Scroll nearly to the bottom.

[Gaius.Cornelius]

Here is a summary of the drinking laws in the UK:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/Audiences/P...059&chk=bOAIuv

[Max Torque]

I submit this for your education only. I'm not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code, § 106.04. CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL BY A MINOR:

(a) A minor commits an offense if he consumes an alcoholic beverage.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the alcoholic beverage was consumed in the visible presence of the minor's adult parent, guardian, or spouse.

Keep in mind also Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code, § 106.06, PURCHASE OF ALCOHOL FOR A MINOR; FURNISHING ALCOHOL TO A MINOR:

(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b) of this section, a person commits an offense if he purchases an alcoholic beverage for or gives or with criminal negligence makes available an alcoholic beverage to a minor.
(b) A person may purchase an alcoholic beverage for or give an alcoholic beverage to a minor if he is the minor's adult parent, guardian, or spouse, or an adult in whose custody the minor has been committed by a court, and he is visibly present when the minor possesses or consumes the alcoholic beverage.

[Duke of Rat]

Originally Posted by CynicalGabe

In the US:

It does not matter if you are:

-eating a meal
-with a parent
-anything else


If you are under 21, it is illegal for you to posess, consume, or otherwise have it. You, your parents, the waiter, and the restaurant all face legal sanctions. There are no exceptions.

Not in Texas. A minor can drink alcohol is it is furnished by and consumed in the presence of a parent or adult legal guardian.

106.05~106.06

[Duke of Rat]

I see Max Torque found the same laws.

[aaslatten]

Originally Posted by Duke of Rat

Not in Texas. A minor can drink alcohol is it is furnished by and consumed in the presence of a parent or adult legal guardian.

106.05~106.06

Thanks, Duke, for the correction. I really wish people would not post incorrect statements with such absolute certainty.

It might also be worth pointing out that "champeroned" drinking in Texas is allowed, but it is still at the discretion of the restaurant manager/server. So they don't have to serve you just because you're with a parent/guardian, but they may choose to do so.

[CynicalGabe]

I stand corrected. I had been under the impression that all states were prohibited from allowing alcohol to be provided to those under 21.

[Max Torque]

Originally Posted by Duke of Rat

I see Max Torque found the same laws.

Found 'em? Heck I've prosecuted 'em!

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by aaslatten

It might also be worth pointing out that "champeroned" drinking in Texas is allowed,

Is that drinking champagne in the presence of a chaperone?

[Duke of Rat]

Originally Posted by aaslatten

Thanks, Duke, for the correction. I really wish people would not post incorrect statements with such absolute certainty.

It might also be worth pointing out that "champeroned" drinking in Texas is allowed, but it is still at the discretion of the restaurant manager/server. So they don't have to serve you just because you're with a parent/guardian, but they may choose to do so.

Well, Max Torque was actually first to the line, he posted while I was still looking it up. I knew, from growing up in Texas, that minors could drink if supervised by a guardian (hey, only in Texas, It's A Whole Nuther Country or something...) but it took me a couple of minutes to find a link.

At least I knew that used to be the law, my Googling was an attempt to see if the law had recently (hah, recently...I haven't been a minor in recent memory) been changed.

And you're right, I doubt that an establishment would be obligated to serve a minor even if a parent purchased the alcohol. "We may refuse service to anyone" would be a lot safer than getting your license revoked for serving to a minor. My dad used to buy me beer in the pool hall when I was a minor, but it was the type of establishment that wouldn't have been too concerned as to the letter of the law. Around here, nothing was unusual about a dad buying his boy a beer. I was 18 for a couple of months before I graduated high school, I was able to legally buy booze while I was in high school (the drinking age in Texas was 18 then, and I was already 20 IIRC when they raised it to 19, and over 21 when it was raised to 21. I have a bit of experience with legal age and alcohol consumption in Texas).

[dlack]

New York State Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, Article 5, Section 65-c:

S 65-c. Unlawful possession of an alcoholic beverage with the intent
to consume by persons under the age of twenty-one years.
1. Except as
hereinafter provided, no person under the age of twenty-one years shall
possess any alcoholic beverage, as defined in this chapter, with the
intent to consume such beverage.
2. A person under the age of twenty-one years may possess any
alcoholic beverage with intent to consume if the alcoholic beverage is
given:
(a) to a person who is a student in a curriculum licensed or
registered by the state education department and the student is required
to taste or imbibe alcoholic beverages in courses which are a part of
the required curriculum, provided such alcoholic beverages are used only
for instructional purposes during class conducted pursuant to such
curriculum; or
(b) to the person under twenty-one years of age by that person`s
parent or guardian.

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=5&a=6

[Chronos]

Whoa. So if I'm a teacher in New York, I can bring in beers for my class to help them relax during a test? I don't think that's quite what that exception (a) is supposed to mean, but I'm having a hard time figuring out just what it is supposed to mean.

[PatriotX]

Having worked the service industry in both states in question, I can say that servers are taught that if they do this (sell to someone who provides it to a minor), then they can be fired, fined and/or jailed.


Just a thought.

[Plynck]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Whoa. So if I'm a teacher in New York, I can bring in beers for my class to help them relax during a test? I don't think that's quite what that exception (a) is supposed to mean, but I'm having a hard time figuring out just what it is supposed to mean.

Just a guess here, but I would think that this would apply to culinary institutions where the relation of food and drink is an important part of the student's education.

Best to all,

plynck

[dlack]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Whoa. So if I'm a teacher in New York, I can bring in beers for my class to help them relax during a test? I don't think that's quite what that exception (a) is supposed to mean, but I'm having a hard time figuring out just what it is supposed to mean.

I know my local community college has a bartending course.

[aaslatten]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Whoa. So if I'm a teacher in New York, I can bring in beers for my class to help them relax during a test? I don't think that's quite what that exception (a) is supposed to mean, but I'm having a hard time figuring out just what it is supposed to mean.

This sounded weird to me too, but my first thought was that it has something to do with allowing underage students to participate in alcohol-awareness programs in which participants drink under controlled conditions in order to learn the effects of alcohol first-hand.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by dlack

I know my local community college has a bartending course.

At most bartending courses (or, at least those I've ever heard of) alcohol was not actually handled or used. At the course I took a few years ago (just for fun, long after I'd stopped bartending, but you never know...) we used colored water in bottles with regular labels on them to practice mixing drinks.

However, any course on vinting or oenology will probably have you tasting wine. I don't know if colleges offer classes on beer brewing or distillation but I'd image they'd be the same.

It's not part of any class, but I know the UW-Madison Student Union sells good beer really cheap. Hmmm...maybe I should put that on my list of grad schools to consider. I know they've got a great fusion physics program...

Stranger

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally Posted by CynicalGabe

In the US:

It does not matter if you are:

-eating a meal
-with a parent
-anything else


If you are under 21, it is illegal for you to posess, consume, or otherwise have it. You, your parents, the waiter, and the restaurant all face legal sanctions. There are no exceptions.

In the U.S., except for Wisconsin that is, where the first two are valid cause for exceptions. Many states used to have younger drinking ages than 21, but were blackmailed into raising them to 21, or else face losing interstate highway funds. Notwisthstanding that, underage drinking laws are enforced at the state level, and we should avoid using terms like "in the U.S." for the benefit of our non-American members since it might lead some to think that it's some kind of Federal statute.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

On postview I see that my point was already made by several others. That's what I get for not reading to the end of the thread.

slaps self on wrist; slinks off

[beergeek279]

Originally Posted by Duke of Rat

Not in Texas. A minor can drink alcohol is it is furnished by and consumed in the presence of a parent or adult legal guardian.

106.05~106.06

In Pennsylvania, it's even illegal for a parent or guardian to supply alcohol to their own children.

[jasonh300]

Originally Posted by CynicalGabe

If you are under 21, it is illegal for you to posess, consume, or otherwise have it. You, your parents, the waiter, and the restaurant all face legal sanctions. There are no exceptions.

In Louisiana, specifically New Orleans and the surrounding area, a person between 18 and 21 can legally be in certain bars. The bar can't sell that person alcohol and only the parents or spouse (over 21) can purchase alcohol for that person.

Parents can purchase alcohol for someone under 21 to drink in a restaurant/bar & grille type place (that might be between 18 and 21...don't remember) if that establishment will allow it...the establishment has the right to say no to ANYONE under 21 if they want to.

Incidentally, someone 18 to 21 CAN legally drink, but there's only a couple of ways they can legally get it, which usually doesn't happen.

We have a "Responsible Vendors Program" here which is statewide and you're required to take anually to get a permit to dispense alcohol. Bartenders, convenience store clerks, and anyone who works anywhere that alcohol is sold is required to take this class. They actually test you on all this stuff.

[MLS]

In NJ, those under the legal drinking age may not have alcohol in a bar or restaurant. Period. My daughter is a bartender, and tells me that some places have house rules such that, if there are a group of over- and under-age young folks at the same table, no one at that table will be served alcoholic beverages. If parents and children are at the same table and the parents are observed to pass drinks to the child, they will be told to not do that; if they persist, the table will not be served any more alcohol. As a practical matter, a parent giving a child a sip of a cocktail would probably not be noticed.

Technically speaking, you aren't even supposed to give alcohol to your own child in your own home; as a practical matter it's unlikely that your home is going to be raided during a family meal. However, if any child, including your own, is seen in public to be intoxicated because you gave them alcohol, you could be in big trouble.

[whiterabbit]

You beat me to it, jasonH300. I just took the class last night.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I believe that until a few years ago, in New Orleans it was illegal for a minor to buy alcohol, or to buy alcohol for a minor, but it was not illegal to sell alcohol to a minor. This loophole made it surpassingly easy for minors to buy alcohol in the city, and we teenagers had a grand old time barhopping there before they closed the loophole.

Daniel

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Spectre of Pithecanthropus

Many states used to have younger drinking ages than 21, but were blackmailed into raising them to 21, or else face losing interstate highway funds. [emphasis added]

Regarding ths use of the emphasized word, does this constitute a statement of fact? Isn't GQ the repository of factual information?

[Balthisar]

Originally Posted by acsenray

Regarding ths use of the emphasized word, does this constitute a statement of fact? Isn't GQ the repository of factual information?

Well, the word used was "blackmail." And that's what happened. What's the non-fact here?

Google definition of blackmail.

[Acsenray]

I don't want to get into an argument about this issue, but the definition you cited does not directly support the contention that it was blackmail.

Generally speaking, the definitions call it the extraction of something (usually money) by threat, and many of the definitions specify threat of force or physical harm. I believe that "blackmail" strongly implicates that there is a threat of some physical harm or other illegal coersion going on. The federal government did not coerce by threat of physical harm or other means of illegal coersion. Additionally, "blackmail" implies that what you're being forced to do is (1) (financially) harmful to you and (2) exclusively (financially) beneficial to the blackmailer.

The law merely states that in order for a state to be eligible for highway funds, it must set the drinking age at 21. The conclusion that this is a "threat" of some illegal coercive nature is your opinion. It is not a fact.

[Balthisar]

No, it won't be a dirty fight, and I'm not the original user of the word, but rather a defedant of its use. I see, though, that you're not ignorant of the word "blackmail" and that you merely have political objections to its use. So, okay, you can call it something besides blackmail if you want. It's hard to think of a good word for what it is, though. Maybe a coercive bribe? "Hey, we'll return your grandmother, but only if you bribe us to do so!"

States do one thing. Federal government wants another thing. They're threatened with a penalty if they don't comply. They comply against their collective will. They would not have complied had the threat not been made.

You have money. Kidnappers want your money. You're threatened with a penalty if you don't comply (they'll hurt granny). You comply against your will. You would not have complied had the threat not been made.

One and one makes two. The weights on each side of the balance match. Half a dozen of one and six of the other. If it weighs as much as a duck then she's a witch. Oh, no, wait -- ignore that last one.

[Acsenray]

States do one thing. Federal government wants another thing. They're threatened with a penalty if they don't comply. They comply against their collective will. They would not have complied had the threat not been made.

I see. So let me apply your rubric.

I want to keep my money. The shopkeeper with the cigarettes wants money. The shopkeeper threatens me with the withholding of cigarettes if I don't comply (by handing over my money). I comply against my will (by paying for the cigarettes). I would not have complied had the threat not been made (I'd have taken the cigarettes and kept my money).

I want my paycheck. My boss wants me to produce work. My boss threatens me with the withholding of my paycheck if I don't comply. I comply against my will. I would not have complied had teh threat not been made (I would have collected my paycheck and spent the day playing video games).

Damn! I'm being blackmailed on a daily basis!

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Originally Posted by CynicalGabe

In the US: It does not matter if you are

In the U.S., the individual states set their own laws on such matters (notwithstanding the Federal blackmail cited above).

Here in Montana, here's how it would work. You are underage, and accompanied by a companion who is 21 or over. You go into the restaurant, and your companion orders two drinks. When they arrive, he gives you one.

You can be cited for "MIP" (Minor In Possession). At least in this town, that means you'll be fined and your name will appear in the newspaper.

Your companion can be fined for purchasing liquor for a minor.

The waiter and the restaurant can be fined as well, unless the waiter can demonstrate that he thought both drinks were for your companion and that he never saw you drink one. If there are multiple offences, the restaurant will lose its liquor license.

[Balthisar]

Originally Posted by acsenray

...The shopkeeper with the cigarettes wants money….I want my paycheck. My boss wants me to produce work.

Damn! I'm being blackmailed on a daily basis!

LOL -- good counterpoints. But those are business relationships to each others' mutual satisfaction -- not extortion. The federal government doesn't have a true national interest in seat belts, drinking ages, or speed limits, or it would be a federal power and there would have to be no blackmail -- it would simply dictate the speed limits, drinking ages, and seats belts, rather than extorting actions by the state versus the threat of a real loss.

Your grandma does have an expectation of roaming free, and you have the expectation that she can do so. States do have the expectation that they have all rights reserved to them not given to the federal government by the Constitution. You don't have the expectation of a free pack of smokes (unless you have enough Marlboro points). You don't have an expectation of a paycheck without having earned it. (Well, maybe you do )

Okay, I'll give a point -- I've subtley moved away from the word "blackmail" to the use of "extortion." I'm not admitting that "blackmail" is wrong (the use of the word, not the concept), but it does have dramatic implications you seem to reject.

[Acsenray]

As I said, Balthisar, I'm not going to get into this and I'm not going to offer counter-arguments. My point is merely this -- regardless of the merit of your arguments, they amount to nothing more than opinion, not established fact. The only established fact is that the courts have ruled that this action by the federal government is perfectly legal, which means you can't say with a straight face that either blackmail (by threat of revealing information) or extortion (by threat of force) is established as a matter of fact.

[Omega Glory]

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

At most bartending courses (or, at least those I've ever heard of) alcohol was not actually handled or used. At the course I took a few years ago (just for fun, long after I'd stopped bartending, but you never know...) we used colored water in bottles with regular labels on them to practice mixing drinks.

However, any course on vinting or oenology will probably have you tasting wine. I don't know if colleges offer classes on beer brewing or distillation but I'd image they'd be the same.

Stranger

My college (which is located in NY), offers a classand Beers of the World where you learn about brewing practices, and well, sample beer from around the world. So at least one school does do this. The college also offers a similar course on wine.

[Balthisar]

Originally Posted by acsenray

As I said, Balthisar, I'm not going to get into this and I'm not going to offer counter-arguments.

Okay -- too bad, it's so rare that we can keep it civil enough these days so as not to get booted into some other area of the site.

[Burnt Sugar]

Originally Posted by Shalmanese

In Australia, IIRC, the law is if your:

a) over 16
b) accompanied by a parent or legal guardian
c) drinking alcohol with a meal

then it is legal.

In Australia, a person under 18 is allowed to drink alcohol in a private dwelling, I think. But, a person under 18 can't drink alcohol in public, regardless of who they're with or what they're doing.