How can religious people know so damned little about their religion? (Short & lame)

[Sampiro]

Let me start by saying that I KNOW NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE IGNORANT OF THE HISTORY OF THEIR RELIGION, but this is about the ones who are.

I just got back from a trip to see an exhibit of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was an interesting presentation but absolutely slam packed- there were buses from all over the nation there. (Ancient texts still have many lessons for our times, and these taught me that I can’t stand stupid tourists with nasal twangs or unmanaged teenagers, or most particularly the latters that have emerged from the unlit crevices and leakages of the formers at some point in the past.)

The scroll fragments ranged in size from smaller than a dime to slightly smaller than a sheet of copy paper. The main surprise about seeing them in person was the minuteness of the writing- literally, the Hebrew (and Paleo Hebrew) on these parchments could fit onto a college ruled line with most of the space left over (though I suppose that having to slaughter a goat and ritually bathe 42 times whenever you need a new sheet to write on teaches one economy). The exhibit itself was interesting, but the crowd (or some of it) was just… omg… in a word, stupid.

Now, these are people wearing religious medallions, travelling by bus hundreds of miles to see this exhibit such is their devotion, some of them leaving for mass or other religious services that evening from what I could eavesdrop. I overheard not one and not four but numerous conversations in which the following were repeated (and most of these people weren’t even southerners…):

Did they just not bring over anything from the New Testament?

Who were these Essenes they keep on talking about? They’re not in the Bible.

Masada… that picture… is that where they crucified Jesus?

How can they say the oldest copy of Isaiah before this is only a thousand years old? He’s been dead almost three thousand years so the oldest copies have gotta be that old.

It says these pottery fragments are 10,000 years old. That must be a typo cause Jesus only lived 2,000 years ago.

(After watching a virtual tour of the Temple Mount of the First Century) And think that that whole huge thing was blown down in just three days.

[QUOTE]
Peter and John were fishermen on the Dead Sea.
[/QUOTE

While they were writing these, Matthew and Mark and Luke and John were writing the gospels.

I don’t remember nothing in the Bible called Jubilees

Joseph and Mary must have spoken Egyptian cause they had to communicate with the people there somehow.

And there were other comments, but these are the ones that come immediately to memory. And if this were just an isolated incident I’d think it was just a home for the brain damaged brought to the tour or whatever, but this is non-stop.

I’ve had arguments with Fundies who think base their lives (and more importantly their votes) on the inerrant truth of the Gospels and yet when it comes to history and anthropology and theology of the first century, they’re all Sgt. Schulz: they know n-o-t-h-i-n-g…. They have no concept of how or why the Roman presence in Israel was affecting the people and their religion, or that the Gospels weren’t written down the night after the crucifixion, or that there was a huge Jewish colony in Egypt or who the Essenes were or that the Dead Sea is lifeless (which is why IT IS DEAD!), etc etc. They don’t understand the significance of Herod’s Temple or know that there were THOUSANDS of merchants there (not just the three old Shylocks with TV trays shown in pictures) or know what Masada was or why the Jews of the early first century were so convinced that they were living in the last generation (which in some ways it turned out they were) or that baptism and communion had pre-Jesus precedents or…

Arrrrrghhhhh! I’m far from a biblical scholar or an expert on this period of history, but if I know these things and I’m an atheist then how in hell can people who base their entire belief systems NOT know them? I would think that if my entire eternal life depended on how I viewed a man who lived 2000 years ago that I would want to become a walking encyclopedia on the customs and the politics and the geography and every other piece of information about his times so that I could feel as close to him and as knowledgable about him as possible. I’d want to read everything he read, eat the foods he’d have eaten, know exactly who the Zadokkim and the Pharisees were and how they interacted and… but they seem supremely unconcerned. I have no doubts that had these people been born Tibetan Buddhists they’d have stayed that way their entire lives and unquestioningly accepted the divinity of the Dalai Lamas with the unquestioning allegiance they now give Jesus.

This is lame and pointless and a rant, but it just pisses me off. And again, I KNOW that not all Christians are ignorant, but I seem to have met far more who can tell you who the minister’s daughter is dating than can tell you who Herod Antipas was and what he ruled v. what Pilate ruled, and to me this would seem to be anything but trivia if it was THE BASIS OF MY MORAL CODE.

And I’d wager kidneys to Chevy Cutlass parts that these are the same people who vote against gay marriage and for the Ten Commandments in the courthouses. Fuckers.

Lame rant off.

[Pullet]

It has been my experience that a large number of “faithful” are only so precisely because they know so little about the history behind their faith and that any real information would hurt their tiny heads. The fact that they laid out money for the trip only shows how far they are willing to go to impress the Jones’.

And that goes for every religion I’ve met so far.

[Revtim]

Dude, those pottery fragments can’t be 10,000 years old because the Earth itself is only 6,000 years old!

[lorinada]

I fault the churches themselves. This is precisely why I quit going to church. I had been a Christian for over 30 years and faithfully attended church and Sunday school the entire time, but I ran across the term “eschatology” (on this board, no less) and had no clue what it even meant. Many, many hours of googling later I realized I had learned virtually NOTHING about my religion in all those years of going to church.

I’ve learned more about Christianity in the three or fours years since studying it on the internet than I ever could hope to learn in church.

Sometimes you want to learn more about something and that spurs you to do your own research. But other times, you are kept so ignorant that you don’t even realize you’re ignorant. And that’s what churches are doing - keeping their members ignorant, becuase if they dared study on their own they may do what I do - leave the church altogether when they realize their pastors can’t answer their questions.

[Klaatu]

Regarding your question, I would guess that a majority of Christians (Or any other religion) were just brought up believing that way, went to church and figured they were right with their choice of deity, weren’t going to hell, and really didn’t care about the technical details.

I guess I was a Christian growing up as I went to the local Presby church with the family every Sunday. As a kid I didn’t question mom and dad, it was just something we did. They weren’t fanatics about it, and when I got old enough to formulate my own opinions, I moved on.

I think it’s sort of like a lot of people I have talked to ie. “I’m a pubbie/dem because I was raised that way.”

As was said, it’s the total fanatics who will try to dazzle you with ignorant bullshit.

[mswas]

@lorinada

Sometimes you want to learn more about something and that spurs you to do your own research. But other times, you are kept so ignorant that you don’t even realize you’re ignorant. And that’s what churches are doing - keeping their members ignorant, becuase if they dared study on their own they may do what I do - leave the church altogether when they realize their pastors can’t answer their questions.

Or perhaps the churches would be even stronger because people would be engaged in the subject matter, have a much more personal connection to it, and would look back fondly on the first time THEY taught their pastor something he didn’t know, and the level of understanding would skyrocket to dizzying heights because people would actually be LEARNING as children when you absorb things like a dry sponge.

Erek

[Hunter_Hawk]

@mswas

Or perhaps the churches would be even stronger because people would be engaged in the subject matter, have a much more personal connection to it, and would look back fondly on the first time THEY taught their pastor something he didn’t know, and the level of understanding would skyrocket to dizzying heights because people would actually be LEARNING as children when you absorb things like a dry sponge.

So then why don’t the churches teach more details about their religion?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Hunter Hawk

So then why don’t the churches teach more details about their religion?

It leads to questions.

Also there are not a few clergy (particularly those of the fundamentalist variety) who have had very little genuine education of their own or have had a very slanted one.

[Marley23]

Beats me. I don’t think it speaks well for the religion when atheists on this board know more about the faith than the faithful, that’s for sure.

[mswas]

@Hunter Hawk

So then why don’t the churches teach more details about their religion?

I’d say it has more to do with the lack of quality in the education of the church leaders, where they don’t want you to question out of a personal desire not to be made to look like an idiot. So their vested interest in an ignorant constituency is more personal, and that becomes entrenched as it becomes part of the culture.

One thing I hate the most about the Christian tradition is the idea that the human being is imperfect. There is some subjective idea of perfection that is nebulous and unattainable because it is so vague.

I’d also imagine that in a time where literacy was something reserved for the few, that they got stuck more on the herding than the teaching.

I think that the internet and greater access to information is sparking a massive change in the way people see things, and it will become more and more common to know more about the subject that one is being forced to study. I used to belong to a Christian Live Journal community, where I thought the dogma was a bit thick, but the level of sophistication in the discussion surprised me.

Erek

[kimera]

Jehovah’s Witnesses. Actually sit down and talk with a Witness and you will find they know next to nothing about what the bible says despite the fact that they believe it is the inerrant word of God. There was a Witness that once tried to convert me (I am agnostic) and I knew more about the bible then he did. I kept bringing up all these biblical stories from both the new and old testament and he didn’t believe they were actually in the bible until I opened his version and pointed them out for them. I mean, he couldn’t even summerize either of the creation stories in genesis for God’s sake! Since then, I have had similar experiences with every one I’ve come across.

[mswas]

@kimera

Jehovah’s Witnesses. Actually sit down and talk with a Witness and you will find they know next to nothing about what the bible says despite the fact that they believe it is the inerrant word of God. There was a Witness that once tried to convert me (I am agnostic) and I knew more about the bible then he did. I kept bringing up all these biblical stories from both the new and old testament and he didn’t believe they were actually in the bible until I opened his version and pointed them out for them. I mean, he couldn’t even summerize either of the creation stories in genesis for God’s sake! Since then, I have had similar experiences with every one I’ve come across.

That happened to me once. The older guy was very uncomfortable, the younger guy was clearly a neophyte, and he was loving every minute of it and got super excited. He especially liked it when I talked about the validity of having a church when professing the tenets that Jehovah’s Witnesses do about organizations.

That was fun. I like Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Erek

[FriarTed]

Actually, I’ve found JW’s to be more knowledgeable than the average pew-warming Christian.

As one of the more book-learned people in my church, I’ve come to some conclusions-

The church is a community of faith, where people gather to worship God & fellowship with each other. It’s not an academy. It’s not even intended to be an academy. It’s good to use the pulpit & the Sunday schools & BIble studies to educate the faithful, but the priority is to reinforce devotion to God & decency to each other. And most ministers will tell you that is a full time job.

Devotion & knowledge are not interlinked. I can prattle on about soteriology & eschatology & Calvinism & Arminianism & trans/con/non-substantiation to the devout rugged working guys or sweet old ladies in my church till their eyes glaze over (which is about 15 seconds). However, when someone needs work done on cars or houses, or prayer or caring, these rugged guys & old ladies can be way better about the essence of Christian faith than am I.

If I were at the DSS exhibit & overheard those comments, I’d probably feel the same as Sampiro. I may have actually tried to respond to them. But I’ve learned not to confuse people knowing less than I do with their being lesser Christians than I am.

Oh yeah- & for the Pit- poop!

[Idlewild]

Some churches are more academically inclined than others. Although I am an atheist now it’d probably be remiss of me not to say that in the 16 years since birth that I did attend church, we were encouraged to study the Bible and historical matters important to Christianity. My uncle, who is a retired minister of the church, would no doubt be equally appalled by the ignorance on display in the OP’s examples. He studied both Greek and Hebrew so he could serve his congregation better in understanding the Bible.

I think it just depends on the traditions of the church at hand, but some churches really do have a tradition of encouraging learning and lively discussion.

[Sublight]

I wish I could find the exact quote, but another Doper very recently had this to say on the subject:

“The more fervently and emotionally one believes something, the less well informed one is likely to be on that subject.”

This is not limited to religion, but it certainly provides plenty of examples.

[gobear]

@Idlewild

Some churches are more academically inclined than others. Although I am an atheist now it’d probably be remiss of me not to say that in the 16 years since birth that I did attend church, we were encouraged to study the Bible and historical matters important to Christianity. My uncle, who is a retired minister of the church, would no doubt be equally appalled by the ignorance on display in the OP’s examples. He studied both Greek and Hebrew so he could serve his congregation better in understanding the Bible.

I think it just depends on the traditions of the church at hand, but some churches really do have a tradition of encouraging learning and lively discussion.

Of courese, and Sampiro acknowledged that in all caps and bold type in the first paragraph in his OP. We have several knowledgeable Christians on this board, for example, who have studied their faith and who have thought deeply about their beliefs.

But yeah, a lot of Christians don’t know their own holy texts or their church’s history. I don’t know how many arguments I’ve gotten into both on this board and elsewhere with people who disagree with me, but can’t quote Scripture, know nothing of the Bible’s provenance, and who have never read any Christian author deeper than Chuck Swindoll or James Dobson. William Law, who? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, huh? What’s a Masada?

[gobear]

And to echo Sublight, this isn;t limited to religion; critical thinking and the individual search for truth are damned rare everywhere. You can see it in political discussions here, when both people on the Left and the Right quote their pet talking heads, yet rarely bother to do their own research, as Manhattan pointed out in a recent Pit thread. And that’s on this board, where the average IQ skews significantly higher than that of the general population.

[OtakuLoki]

Similarly, I just love those Fundies who treat the King James as the inerrant word of God. Of course it’s not simply fundies that have trouble understanding that the Bible was not written in English, but they tend to be more obvious about it than others. My mother was involved in a Catholic Bible Study group, and one of the men in the group was complaining because the translation (New Jerusalem, IIRC) they were using wasn’t all “thee’s and thou’s” and how dare they change the words from those that Christ used. :rolleyes:

[Idlewild]

@gobear

Of courese, and Sampiro acknowledged that in all caps and bold type in the first paragraph in his OP. We have several knowledgeable Christians on this board, for example, who have studied their faith and who have thought deeply about their beliefs.

But yeah, a lot of Christians don’t know their own holy texts or their church’s history. I don’t know how many arguments I’ve gotten into both on this board and elsewhere with people who disagree with me, but can’t quote Scripture, know nothing of the Bible’s provenance, and who have never read any Christian author deeper than Chuck Swindoll or James Dobson. William Law, who? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, huh? What’s a Masada?

Oops, yes, this is what I get for replying to threads before I’ve had enough coffee/cold meds. I think I was mainly trying to point out that it’s a cultural artifact between various strains of tradition. Certainly not to defend people who don’t understand their own religious history.

[tdn]

Years ago I (being somewhat ignorant of the religion I once upon a time called my own) became aware that “Christ” wasn’t actually Jesus’ last name, but rather a description. (Actually, I really knew that all along, but had never really put much thought into it.) I became curious as to what it meant, but had no ready sources of information.

Except one.

A local convent had an account at the video store where I worked. I decided to ask a nun. “What does Christ mean? I mean, I know it means Messiah, but what does Messiah mean?” She looked at me quizzically and said “It does? Christ is Jesus’ last name. Wah? How should I know?”

Uh, because it’s your full time job?