Self Esteem - Mod note

[Lynn Bodoni]

DO NOT POST entire lyrics of songs on the SDMB, or major portions of lyrics. This is a copyright violation. This goes for fetus, QuickSilver, manhattan, Shirley Ujest, GaWd, and whiterabbit. I've removed the thread, because I don't feel like cutting major portions out of so many posts.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[The Great Sun Jester]

Is it still a violation if you credit the (correct) artist? Is it a violation then? Huh? Is it?

'Cause then it's, like, a cite.

[Liberal]

The music people can be a mite anal.

[JonScribe]

That's the problem.

Like a cite, but not a cite.

Is it so hard to quote a brief passage and then link to another page with the lyrics?

Huh? Is it?

Dweeb.

[GaWd]

Yay! My first official warning.

I actually knew that I should have pared my posting down quite considerably as soon as I had hit submit...I wish that edit function was enabled so that a funny and cathartic thread such as that could still be around. SOrry to be such a bad boy. Will restrain myself in the future.

Sam

[Neurotik]

Originally Posted by JonScribe

Is it so hard to quote a brief passage and then link to another page with the lyrics?

Maybe for the other posts, but it wouldn't have worked with the OP in that thread. It was basically quoting a section of the song and then relating how that passage was a good description of what he was going through with a girl. It was a pretty darn good OP, I thought. He might have been able to get away with it if the others hadn't come in and started just posting entire song lyrics.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

What does all this show?


That chicks are evil and responsible for lawbreaking.



Someone had to say it.

[Polycarp]

The Fair Use laws are quite clear. A short snippet of something that does not say "You will not copy this anywhere under any circumstances, or we will send rabid capybaras to rip off and eat your gonads as you sleep" is permissible. For a song, that means a couple of lines at most, and not even that if the copyright notice says otherwise.

When in doubt, ask a Mod. first; they don't bite. Often.

[asterion]

I just want to note that this is somewhat ironic, as The Offspring were one of the first groups to come out in favor of P2P and Napster.

[Jackmannii]

Capybaras are vegetarians. And I don't believe they carry rabies.


Polycarp could have referred to rabid weasels. But then again, that might have been a Frank Zappa copyright violation.

[Shirley Ujest]

[Loud, whiny voice]

Manny started it!

[whiterabbit]

Sorry. I cut off a good chunk of it for just this reason, but not enough I guess. It won't happen again.

[Cajun Man]

SDMB Registration Agreement

You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by the operator of the SDMB, except as permitted by the "fair use" provisions of the U.S. copyright laws (in general this means brief excerpts only). You agree to abide by the wishes of the board moderators in interpreting and enforcing these rules. Refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges.

Cajun Man
for the SDMB

[I can't believe that's butter!]

Are song parodies still kosher for board-use?

[Lute Skywatcher]

I don't see why not. Parodies fall under fair use.

[Casey1505]

Why are specific posters singled out in the OP? Sure, they may be the ones it is aimed at, but why embarass them like this? E-mailing them their warnings privately, and posting a general warning/reminder is so much better form than hanging dirty laundry on the line like this.

[cj finn]

You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by the operator of the SDMB, except as permitted by the "fair use" provisions of the U.S. copyright laws (in general this means brief excerpts only). You agree to abide by the wishes of the board moderators in interpreting and enforcing these rules. Refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges.

I will grant that safe is better than sorry, but under the Fair Use Doctrine, even an entire set of lyrics can be quoted without giving rise to liability. By all means, follow the policy and stick to quoting only brief excerpts; in this way, you will never go wrong. That said, can we be a bit less shrill about copyright issues? Hysteria is quite unbecoming.

And while I'm ranting, I'm going to poke the next person that suggests that proper attribution has anything to do with infringement of a copyright straight in the eye. We're talking total luxation here folks. Wear your safety glasses.

Carry on.

CJ

[NurseCarmen]

So, if I where to, say, post the entire lyrics of the Champs "Tequila" or the entire lyrical content of The Raybeats breakthrough album, "Guitar Beat", I could find myself in a heap o' trouble?

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by Casey1505

Why are specific posters singled out in the OP? Sure, they may be the ones it is aimed at, but why embarass them like this? E-mailing them their warnings privately, and posting a general warning/reminder is so much better form than hanging dirty laundry on the line like this.

I removed the original thread with the copyright violations in it. Ordinarily, I would have warned the violators in the thread itself, but since the thread was removed, I had to start a new thread to warn them.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[Zoe]

I'm trying to imagine an embarassed Shirley Ujest. Hmmm. Nyah. It's just not coming into focus...

Say, isn't there a song called White Rabbit? Jefferson Starship or something. Anyone know the lyrics?

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Liberal

The music people can be a mite anal.

Jesus, that's pretty fucking depressing.

I wonder, exactly how much of a song can you use in a book or an article under the Fair Use provisions, without having to fork over 4 bucks a word?

[Casey1505]

Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni

...but since the thread was removed, I had to start a new thread to warn them.

I beg to differ. With all due respect, you could have e-mailed them. As an administrator of the board, you are privvy to their e-mail addresses even if they are not public. A thread allowing the rest of the community to sit in the principals office with you as you call the offenders onto the carpet is just not how I would have handled it, or wanted it handled had I been in their shoes. The easiest option is not always the best option.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by cj finn

I will grant that safe is better than sorry, but under the Fair Use Doctrine, even an entire set of lyrics can be quoted without giving rise to liability.

CJ

Wanna give me an example?

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Originally Posted by NurseCarmen

So, if I where to, say, post the entire lyrics of the Champs "Tequila" or the entire lyrical content of The Raybeats breakthrough album, "Guitar Beat", I could find myself in a heap o' trouble?

Wow, another Raybeats fan! Do you like Los Straitjackets too?

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Casey1505

I beg to differ. With all due respect, you could have e-mailed them. As an administrator of the board, you are privvy to their e-mail addresses even if they are not public. A thread allowing the rest of the community to sit in the principals office with you as you call the offenders onto the carpet is just not how I would have handled it, or wanted it handled had I been in their shoes. The easiest option is not always the best option.

As someone who posted to that thread and was not warned, I would have been unhappy to have it disappear without public explanation; and God knows I don't want a little note from Lynn, telling me I wasn't a scofflaw like all those other posters. That'd be so creepy!
The transgression was public, so should be the warning.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by asterion

I just want to note that this is somewhat ironic...

Kind of like rain on your wedding <cut for potential copyright infringement and for being a lame, overdone joke>.

[Casey1505]

Originally Posted by Squink

As someone who posted to that thread and was not warned, I would have been unhappy to have it disappear without public explanation; and God knows I don't want a little note from Lynn, telling me I wasn't a scofflaw like all those other posters. That'd be so creepy!
The transgression was public, so should be the warning.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't see anything wrong with a "form letter" e-mail to the offenders, ("The thread pertaining to {whatever the topic was} has been removed due to potential copyright violations. As one of the potential violators, please be mindful of the Chicago Readers policy...<yada yada yada>....A new thread will be posted by me in The Pit explaining the removal of the original thread..."

Failing that, a "You Know Who You Are" sort of general warning/reminder should have been posted. If you posted to the thread, maybe she means you, maybe she doesn't, but I bet you'd take heed regardless.

I don't disagree with the removal of the thread. Hell, I hadn't even seen it. But this isn't such an earth shattering transgression that the specific posters needed to be singled out in the manner in which they were.

Besides, based on the wording of the OP, I get to continue to post complete lyrics skelter-helter.

[furt]

Originally Posted by NurseCarmen

So, if I were to, say, post the entire lyrics of the Champs "Tequila" ...

Nope, nor the lyrics to the Ventures' biggest hit.

Excerpts would be acceptable, such as:

"Wi"
<snip>
"out"

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by Casey1505

I beg to differ. With all due respect, you could have e-mailed them. As an administrator of the board, you are privvy to their e-mail addresses even if they are not public. A thread allowing the rest of the community to sit in the principals office with you as you call the offenders onto the carpet is just not how I would have handled it, or wanted it handled had I been in their shoes. The easiest option is not always the best option.

Public warnings are the default option on this message board...that is, generally a person is warned publicly for a public infraction. There are approximately three gazillion warnings in various public threads. We almost never email warnings. The infraction was public, so the warnings are public. That's the way we run this message board.

There is no one method of doing anything that will please everyone.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[GaWd]

Seriously Casey, it's allright. THose of us who were warned were warned publicly, as are all people who receive warnings. I have a hunch that most people who posted the lyrics, such as myself, had at least an inkling of a thought that what we were doing was at least some sort of infringement of board rules as well.

I blew it, I received my warning as have hundreds of posters before me.

Sam

[Excalibre]

Originally Posted by Casey1505

I beg to differ. With all due respect, you could have e-mailed them. As an administrator of the board, you are privvy to their e-mail addresses even if they are not public. A thread allowing the rest of the community to sit in the principals office with you as you call the offenders onto the carpet is just not how I would have handled it, or wanted it handled had I been in their shoes. The easiest option is not always the best option.

Dude! Not everything a mod does has to turn into drama over what they should and shouldn't do. Not only are Lynn's actions quite firmly along the lines of what's always done here, but the warning was not particularly harsh, nor did it have anything to do with anything embarrassing.

Sheesh.

By the way, I'm smacking the first person to publicly proclaim to have "lost all respect" for Lynn.

[Annie-Xmas]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Kind of like rain on your wedding <cut for potential copyright infringement and for being a lame, overdone joke>.

Or rain on my parade? Oops!

[Revtim]

What does "self esteem" have to do with this? Is that the user name of the person who started the thread? A song title?

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Revtim

What does "self esteem" have to do with this? Is that the user name of the person who started the thread? A song title?

The OP found himself living the (Offspring) song, didn't like it, and broke up with his gal.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Kind of like rain on your wedding <cut for potential copyright infringement and for being a lame, overdone joke>.

Or a free ride that you just can take?


WHAT!

[Duck Duck Goose]

Originally Posted by GaWd

Seriously Casey, it's allright...

No no no no no.

You're supposed to whine, dammit. You're supposed to piss and moan and bitch and whine and fall down on the floor and drum your tiny heels and hold your breath until you turn blue, and then go start a Pit thread pissin' and moanin' about jackbooted Nazi moderators which will mushroom to 9 pages and consist of everyone bringing up every evil thing the jackbooted Nazi SDMB moderators ever did, going all the way back to the "AOL Days", and which will spawn several related Pit threads in which an assortment of Drama Queens announce that they have lost all respect for [fill in the blank with name of moderator], and that while the rest of us may choose to remain here as enablers and Vichy collaborators, they will be preserving their Internet souls untainted, and will not be renewing their subscription, so farewell forever.

Not just suck it up.

I mean, duuuuuude.

[whiterabbit]

It's not a big deal. I did consider the rule when I was posting, but decided I was probably in the clear. So I wasn't. So I got warned publicly. Oops. I'll be more careful next time.

[Mama Tiger]

Bad rabbit!

But I have to thank you, Lynn -- as whiterabbit's mom, now that she's all grown up I can't chew her out effectively any more and make it stick. Whereas you now have that power. Bwahahaha......you carry the torch well!

Seriously, though, could we have a clarification of how much is too much? Is one line of a song okay? Two? One verse or chorus? Or just a title with a link to some other less-copyright-concerned page with the full lyrics? SDMB is about as strict a site as I've seen online where copyrights are concerned, so it's easy to accidentally cross the line (I've done it myself in the past re a copy of a videotape for someone who'd missed a show). Maybe a sticky with specific limits on common types of copyrighted works would be helpful.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Are song parodies still kosher for board-use?

Answer: if YOU wrote the parody, then you have full rights to it and can post it. If someone else (say, Weird Al Y) wrote the parody, then NO.

And even if you use just a snippet, you should provide full attribution.

The Straight Dope Message Boards are sponsored by the CHICAGO READER. The READER is extremely fussy about copyrights -- more so than might be strictly necessary, from a technical legal point of view. It's basically the golden rule: the READER doesn't want anyone copying their material, and therefore we don't allow people on the READER's Message Boards to copy the material of others.

Seriously, though, could we have a clarification of how much is too much?

No, you could not. At least, not from us. You could go to a law library and look up the hundreds of pages of legal cases, if you wanted. The general "fair use" rule is something like five percent. That's obviously targetted at longer works, like stories, rather than a three-stanza song, but the idea is: How much? Not much.

A couple of lines is fine, and then provide a link to the website that DOES have the legitimate copyright to reproduce the entire song.

[GaWd]

Sorry DDG, let me start over...

Lynn, I feel as though I have been unfairly singled out by your criticism and moderation. It wasn't my fault that I didn't know the rules, and aside from that, my Dog Bella made me do it. If you continue to unfairly harass me, I will leave this place and you will cease to have any of my membership money!

You and the rest of the brownshirts that moderate the SDMB can go to HELL for what you have done to me!

I'm leaving_{No, I'm not}. I don't know when I'll return, if ever!_{Maybe later this evening after a child's birthday party in the pit of hell we in California call "Modesto"} I have completely lost all faith in the staff here and those of you who stay are nothing more than SHEEP!

Sam

[picker]

Baaaaaa!

[capybara]

RAHHRR!
[froth]
NIP NIP NIP NIP. . .

[ltfire]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

Answer: if YOU wrote the parody, then you have full rights to it and can post it. If someone else (say, Weird Al Y) wrote the parody, then NO.

And even if you use just a snippet, you should provide full attribution.

The Straight Dope Message Boards are sponsored by the CHICAGO READER. The READER is extremely fussy about copyrights -- more so than might be strictly necessary, from a technical legal point of view. It's basically the golden rule: the READER doesn't want anyone copying their material, and therefore we don't allow people on the READER's Message Boards to copy the material of others.

No, you could not. At least, not from us. You could go to a law library and look up the hundreds of pages of legal cases, if you wanted. The general "fair use" rule is something like five percent. That's obviously targetted at longer works, like stories, rather than a three-stanza song, but the idea is: How much? Not much.

A couple of lines is fine, and then provide a link to the website that DOES have the legitimate copyright to reproduce the entire song.

Ahhh...but how will we know that the website we refer to really has the copyright to that particular song? What?

[QuickSilver]

Confiteor Mod omnipotenti vobis fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione,
verbo, opere et omissione, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


Translation: I confess to almighty mod, and to you my brothers, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, act and omission, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault

[ltfire]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Confiteor Mod omnipotenti vobis fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione,
verbo, opere et omissione, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


Translation: I confess to almighty mod, and to you my brothers, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, act and omission, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault

Shouldn't you be at the Conclave, behind closed doors?

[Polycarp]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Confiteor Mod omnipotenti vobis fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione,
verbo, opere et omissione, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


Translation: I confess to almighty mod, and to you my brothers, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, act and omission, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault

I take it Smackie ( ) was the closest you could come to a breast-beating smiley?

[FaerieBeth]

Originally Posted by capybara

RAHHRR!
[froth]
NIP NIP NIP NIP. . .

Bwaaahahaha!

[LordVor]

Silly questions. Why is this in the pit? Was the original a pit thread?

[TVeblen]

Originally Posted by LordVor

Silly questions. Why is this in the pit? Was the original a pit thread?

Yes. It was a Pit thread that, while very funny, still contained multiple instances of lyrics of songs reproduced in full.
Not speaking for Lynn here--even though she made the precisesly right calls, IMO--but posters don't automatically look elsewhere for explanations. In this case, there wasn't a way to pare the thread down enough to make it legit and have it still make sense. Posters were rollin' but the thread had just gone south on seeming technicalities, but important technicalities.
The explantion for made where it occured, where most posters would probably notice it anyway, rather than making them seek out an answer or just leave 'em scratching their heads. It really was as much a courtesy as well as a general reminder as anything else.

Veb

[Mycroft H.]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Confiteor Mod omnipotenti vobis fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione,
verbo, opere et omissione, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Can someone please accept this poor sinner’s confession? How many Hail… (well it wouldn’t be Cecils, would it? Maybe Bodinis. That’s it.) How many hail-Bodinis does he have to say to be redeemed?

And I can add that I’m damned sorry to have missed the original thread. It sounds as if it was a classic, even it is lost to the mists of electronic banishment. (Is banishment misty?)