Gun Safety Switch – where is it and how do you know if it’s on or off?

[empty filing cabinet]

Gun Safety Switch – where is it and how do you know if it’s on or off?

Every now and then on TV or in the movies, some hapless character will end up with a firearm in a critical situation, but they won’t know how to work the safety. That’s me!--Didn’t grow up with guns, and don’t plan on getting one, but someday what if I need to use someone else’s to defend the weak and oppose evildoers?

Pistoleros, rifleers, shotgunners, educate and enlighten me! – do all guns have safety switches? Where are they? Are there standard locations? Which way is on, which way is off? Can a dropped gun go off, if the safety is on? Are the safeties child-resistant?

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Most guns have safety switches. I don't recall seeing a revolver with one, though.

I used to deal with guns at the pawn shop I worked at. IIRC, most automatics handguns have their safeties on the left side. This allows you to activate it with your thumb (assuming you are shooting right-handed).

I'm sure some better anwers will follow.

[Washoe]

All semiautos that I can think of (at least mine, and my friends’ that I’ve handled) display a red dot if the safety is off. The standard mnemonic that I’ve always heard is ‘red is dead’.

[Padeye]

DANGER!!!

The only way to be sure of how to operate a gun is to read the manufacturer's instructions and get proper training. There is NO consistent rule for which position is safe or fire. With a 1911 up is safe and down is fire but with a Beretta 92 up is fire and down is safe. If you don't know what you're doing don't fuck with it, someone can die from your mishandling of a loaded weapon. If you are in doubt as to a weapon being loaded or not rememer rule number one.
EVERY GUN IS LOADED

Most but not all modern firearms have passive safety mechanisms. That is to say they are designed so they cannot fire unless the trigger is intentionally pulled even if they are dropped or struck. Do not count on this being the case. Some guns are poorly made and some may be worn enough to be unsafe and some may lack these mechanisms. No safety mechanism is a substitute for correct handling. If you must handle a firearm follow rules 2 and 3 which may prevent a fatality if there is a discharge.

Many modern semi-auto pistols such as the ubiquitous Glock have no safety selector. Technically the Glock's safety mechanism is in part activated by a small lever but since this lever is built into the face of the trigger is is considered a passive safety and in practice the Glock pistol is used very much like a double action revolver.

Sig pistols have a decocking lever which is not really a safety selector as it automatically returns to allow normal double action firing. Some double action pistols such as the Beretta 92, Walther PPK etc. have a decocking lever which does not automatically return and can be used as a safety selector.

Traditional single action semi-auto pistols like the 1911, Browning High Power, etc. have a true safety selector with a distinct safe and fire position. I think my Witness has a red dot to indicate fire position but my 1911 does not.

Safety selectors are quite rare on modern revolvers. Nearly all double action revolvers made since the early part of the 20th century have passive safety. The only significant exception I can think of was the High Standard Crusader but AFAIK it never went into production.

Some newer revolvers have an intergral lock but they are intended to be used with a key and only intended for safe storage rather than safe carry since they would be too slow to operate in an emergency.

Single action revolvers, old west guns, in the original Colt's pattern arguably have no safety at all apart from the half cock notch but this was known to be unreliable even in the 19th century. The only safe way to carry these guns is with no round under the firing pin. Some modern replicas such as the Ruger Vaquero and new model Blackhawk have a passive transfer bar system as found on many double action revolvers. Some imported reproduction pistols have a convoluted safety using the base pin or a hammer block but this is only to meet the legal requirement for importation under the 1968 gun control act.

Pardon me for the rant but gun safety is a very important issue to me. I hope my answer was helpful.

[DougC]

- - - Pad is right: gun safties work every-which-way, you need the instruction manual to know for sure or to know how to test safely, with the gun unloaded.
- Also,,,, seems like there was a French revolver that had a safety--and no, this is not another joke about the French military. I read it mentioned on a gun forum somewhere. It was a recent gun, Manhurin perhaps. It was a police-officer model and the safety was there to help prevent gun-grabs + discharges.
~

[Crafter_Man]

All guns have a safety. It's located between your ears.

[empty filing cabinet]

Originally Posted by Padeye

I hope my answer was helpful.

Thanks, all the responses were helpful.

Looks like there are general patterns, but greater variability than, say, in cars.

I guess if I want to be useful in an emergency, but not become a gun nut, I'll have to find some gun nuts to hang out with!

Originally Posted by Crafter_Man

All guns have a safety. It's located between your ears.

Yeah, a friend's uncle got shot by his pal's unloaded rifle. Not fatally. But just prior to that, the uncle's friend had been carrying it across his shoulders, pointing it at the uncle as they walked side by side.

[Richard Pearse]

How about you pop down to the local rifle range and do some target shooting. I don't know about your country's laws but I think it'd be unlikely that you'd need a gun licence in a controlled environment.

Anyway, it's fun, you'll learn about guns, you'll become comfortable using them safely, and you certainly won't be moving into "gun nut" territory.

[Padeye]

Well your uncle's "friend" violated rule one since an uloaded gun doesn't exist by definition. He also voilated rule two and almost certainly rule three. That's the beauty of the four rules, they are independant of how any particular gun works or what safety mechanisms it has.

I sometimes compete in cowboy action shooting, timed "combat" shooting with replica 19th century guns - single action revolvers, lever action rifles and a few different types of shotguns. Some of the guns have modern passive safeties but a good portion of them are faithful reproductions of pre-1900 arms which work exactly like the originals which means no dependable safety mechanisms. The safety rules take this into account so all procedures depend entnirely on safe practices by the shooter rather than any mechanism built into the gun. At no time may a shooter take a step with or holster a weapon that has a live round under the hammer. Action shooting with modern weapons can allow a shooter to holster a weapon with a round in the chamber as long as the safety is on or it has been decocked and sometimes even allow the shooter run with a ready to fire weapon in hand as long as the his finger is off the trigger. Modern guns can be treated differently then the old style guns but in all cases all four rules are observed at all times.

Ray has a good suggestion but I'd get some safety training before shooting. As you may have observed not every gun nut is a safety nut. I prefer to think of myself as a firearms enthsiast and a gun safety fascist.

[butler1850]

Originally Posted by Padeye

Well your uncle's "friend" violated rule one since an uloaded gun doesn't exist by definition. He also voilated rule two and almost certainly rule three. That's the beauty of the four rules, they are independant of how any particular gun works or what safety mechanisms it has.

<snip>

Ray has a good suggestion but I'd get some safety training before shooting. As you may have observed not every gun nut is a safety nut. I prefer to think of myself as a firearms enthsiast and a gun safety fascist.

I can not agree more. I'm relatively new to the gun world, as I had none prior to meeting/marrying my wife. She is the one with the "gun family" experience, so I've been activly learning all I can over the past few years.

Most of gun safety is just plain common sense. The problem is that common sense isn't very common.

I only go to the range (a 2nd time anyway) with folks that I trust, on a first visit to a range with me, I am always evaluating those shooters around me, and making a decision to continue with every shot. Once I'm comfortable with someone's habits, I may relax a bit, but safety is ALWAYS the first topic on my mind. I never go into the woods hunting with someone until I've seen them at the range and evaluated their gun handling, and safety skills/routine.

A day at the range, or a day in the field/woods is a failure if you or your partner get shot/killed. I certainly don't want to tell his wife, nor do I want my wife to have to be told such news. With the right folks along, firearm use can be one of the most enjoyable things you can do outdoors.

A few more safety tips:

If someone is handing you a gun, ask them to open the action before they pass it off, this lets you see that it is not loaded, *1* though continue to treat it as though it is loaded (all rules refer to *1*).

If you are unfamiliar with a gun that someone is showing you/letting you use, and you don't understand something, ASK. Gun folks LOVE to talk all about our equipment!

Take a class if you can, even if you never plan on shooting, there is some interesting things to learn there. If you're here seeking to fight ignorance, you're probably the type that would enjoy the education. Take a firearms class for safety/shooting skills, take a hunter education class for information about that aspect, there is some great info about animals and outdoor skills that are useful even if you never choose to hunt.

The last piece of advice I can give is not to be afraid of the guns. Be cautious, think safety, follow the rules, and have fun!

-Butler
(shot a 23 out of 50 clays last evening on the sporting clays course, you don't have to be good to have a great time!)

[Jayrot]

I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly is meant by rule #1? If someone hands you a gun that is visibly unloaded, why do you have to treat it like it's loaded? I don't mean "I'm pretty sure it's unloaded", but rather "absolutely unloaded".

[Misery Loves Co.]

Originally Posted by Jayrot

I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly is meant by rule #1? If someone hands you a gun that is visibly unloaded, why do you have to treat it like it's loaded? I don't mean "I'm pretty sure it's unloaded", but rather "absolutely unloaded".

Because that way, the 1 time out of a million where you think it's unloaded and it's not you won't accidentally kill someone.

The idea is that over time and with familiarity, people become complacent and lose their fear/respect for dangerous situations. Tell me this: how nervous were you the first time you drove a car? Was there a period where you got comforatable, maybe was a teensy bit reckless?

Or do you /always/ cut away from you with a knife?

Or do you /always/ put on safety goggles when you're painting or doing construction/crafts?

Well, if you've ever broken those rules and something goes wrong, you might hurt yourself, but there's a LOT more room for error than there is with a gun. An error with a gun is MUCH more likely to end up with someone in the morgue than if you accidentally cut towards yourself with a knife.

It may seem pedantic and borderline paranoid, but it comes under the general category of "old vs bold".

A gun is ALWAYS loaded.

Always.

[JSexton]

Because even an expert can forget.

[UncleBeer]

Originally Posted by Padeye

The safety rules take this into account so all procedures depend entnirely on safe practices by the shooter rather than any mechanism built into the gun.

At the cowboy shoots at my club, there's a loading and unloading station adjacent to the firing position - loading on one side, unloading on the other side. At each of these stations and for each shooter, there's a posse member who verifies, independently of the shooter - and announces - the status of the gun. In addition, at no time is ammunition ever permitted at the unloading station.

Originally Posted by Jayrot

I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly is meant by rule #1? If someone hands you a gun that is visibly unloaded, why do you have to treat it like it's loaded?

Because, as Misery noted, even the most expert and safe gun handlers can forget. Also, rule #1 requires that you not accept anyone else's word that a gun is unloaded. You make your own inspection to verify the gun's condition every time you pick it up. Always. No exceptions.

[silenus]

Originally Posted by UncleBeer

Also, rule #1 requires that you not accept anyone else's word that a gun is unloaded.

Even if the other person is you! As UncleBeer noted...every time! Even if you just set it down to pick up a screwdriver...check it.

[SenorBeef]

Everyone has offered good advice. Now I'll speak in generalizations, to give you an idea of how most guns *generally* operate in regards to safeties. There are lots of exceptions, of course, which you'd have to learn on each gun.

Automatic pistols - which is to say, non-revolvers, generally have a manual safety on the upper left portion of the grip, or just above that, on the slide. If you are right handed, the safety should generally be above your right thumb while you're gripping. *Generally* down is fire and up is safe. I can't even recall offhand a firearm in which this is different, and I've fired a decent few handguns.

The aforementioned Beretta 92 is extremely common. Someone claimed in this thread that safe is down, up is fire, but I don't think that's true. At least, not in the 2 beretta models I've shot.. something like that would stick out in my mind as unusual. Although, I suppose, if you're in a situation where you have an unfamiliar gun and need to use it quickly, as long as you know where the manual safety is, it's easy to attempt to fire it in either position quickly.

If the safety is labelled, *generally* red indicates fire, white indicates safe.

It's somewhat common for automatic handguns not to have a manual safety - they have safeties which prevent accidental discharges, but not in the form of a thumb switch. Some guns (1911, springfield XD) have a grip safety which requires you to have your hand firmly on the gun's grip when you fire.

Rifles and shotguns have a lot more variations in where the safety, or, in military rifles, a selector, is placed. I'm not familiar with hunting rifles and shotguns. A common safety that I know if referred to, I believe, as a "crossbolt" safety. It is a button either immediately behind the trigger or immediately in front of the trigger on the trigger guard or bottom of the receiver of the rifle or shotgun. You push it in on one side of the firearm, and it pops out on the other - to reverse, you push it in on the opposite side, and it pops out on the original side. On these mechanisms, *generally*, the right position is fire, and the left position is safe. Often the side of the button (when it is extended from the side of the firearm) will be colored red to indicate that it's set to fire.

On military firearms, it's more common to have a selector which determines the firing mode (full auto, semi auto, safe, for example). This is generally found near a right handed shooter's left thumb - and this will generally be labelled with letters, or pictures indicating which position corresponds to which firing mode.

The AK-47 and variants are fairly unusual in that the selector mechanism is also a dust cover. It sits on the right side of the receiver, as a big switch. The top position being safe, middle being full auto, and bottom being semi-auto.

[Dancer_Flight]

Originally Posted by Jayrot

I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly is meant by rule #1? If someone hands you a gun that is visibly unloaded, why do you have to treat it like it's loaded? I don't mean "I'm pretty sure it's unloaded", but rather "absolutely unloaded".

Because even opening the action will not always eject a live round.
There is a reason we require every one to PROVE a rifle or pistol safe at our range every time they pick up or put down a firearm.

A - Assume every gun is loaded (A.K.A. rule #1)
C - Control the direction of the muzzle (always in a safe direction)
T - Trigger: Fingers are to be kept out of the trigger guard unless shooting.
S - See that the gun is unloaded, PROVE it safe.

P - Point the firearm in a safe direction.
R - Remove all sources of ammunition.
O - Observe that the chamber is empty (if it isn't, make it so!).
V - Verify the feedpath is free of ammunition.
E - Examine the bore to ensure there are no obstructions.

(Canadian Firearms Safety Acronyms)

At our range, examining the feedpath is only done in a location where there is no ammunition permitted. Newbies might forget the correct order of PROVE, although we have close supervision by range staff to prevent mishandling.

At our range we never engage the safeties on our guns. They are never to be loaded until the shooter is ready to fire (and are not to leave the shooter's hands unless unloaded and locked open) and they are not to be transported unless they are unloaded and have the action locked open for all to see. We teach the shooters that they will use the safeties located betwixt their ears.

-DF

[Padeye]

UncleBeer, your loading/unloading tables sound like every SASS match I've been to except for not allowing any ammunition at the loading table. Are you saying that a shooter may have no extra rounds in his belt loops or pockets? Every cowboy shooter I know carries extra rounds during a stage in case one is dropped becasue picking dropped rounds is forbidden. I have never been to a match where I had to take my extra rounds back to my cart before unloading my guns at the table.

Originally Posted by Jayrot

I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly is meant by rule #1? If someone hands you a gun that is visibly unloaded, why do you have to treat it like it's loaded? I don't mean "I'm pretty sure it's unloaded", but rather "absolutely unloaded".

There are two versions of rule one. "Treat every gun as if it were loaded" and "every guns is loaded," sometimes referred to as the Jeff Cooper version. I prefer the second version because it follows that if the gun is always loaded there is no reason to allow rule two or three to be violated. Consider this scenario. I have a semi-auto handgun with the slide locked open but a full magazine in the well. Everyone can see the empty chamber and knows the weapon cannot fire in that condition. However all it takes is depressing the slide relase and the weapon is instantly ready to fire. Would you want this "unloaed" weapon pointed at your head and for someone to have his finger on the trigger? Me either. The rules are extreme and inflexible because of the potential consequences of not following them.

[wonderwench]

Originally Posted by empty filing cabinet

Gun Safety Switch – where is it and how do you know if it’s on or off?

This is analogous to asking how much a designer dress costs:

If you have to ask, it's not for you.

Nobody, and I do mean nobody, has any business handling a gun for which they have not been properly trained to use. Training includes an understaning of the safety mechanisms.

[Padeye]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

*Generally* down is fire and up is safe. I can't even recall offhand a firearm in which this is different, and I've fired a decent few handguns.

The Berettas you may have shot were probably made before the US military adopted that model. On the original Beretta 92 and earlier Brigadier the safety is mounted to the frame and it follows the Colt 1911 pattern of up for safe, down for fire. The Beretta clone made by Taurus still has this style of safety.

When the US adopted the Beretta 92/M9 they mandated a slide mounted safety in the Walther P-38 pattern. Up or horizontal is fire and down is decock/safe. This type of safety is used by the Walther PPK, virtually every Smith & Wesson semi-auto and several other guns. All commercial Beretta pistols made since around 1984 I think have this type of safety.

This is a perfect example of why the four rules are neccessary. SenorBeef is obviously very knowledgeable about firearms but wasn't aware of this quirk.

[SenorBeef]

Huh, I stand corrected.

And yes, the four rules make safeties really irrelevant. I don't give much thought anymore to the usage of manual safeties - but I am extremely stringent in my adherence to the four rules.

[UncleBeer]

Are you saying that a shooter may have no extra rounds in his belt loops or pockets? Every cowboy shooter I know carries extra rounds during a stage in case one is dropped becasue picking dropped rounds is forbidden. I have never been to a match where I had to take my extra rounds back to my cart before unloading my guns at the table.

No. I guess did overstate the situation a little bit. Shooters may carry extra rounds at our club (and all the others I've been to) just like you say. What I meant, and should have said, is that no loose ammunition is permitted at the unloading station. It'd kinda defeat the purpose of the unloading inspection station if a guy had to go back to his cart to offload spare ammo before checking his guns were empty.

Sorry for the confusion. And the opportunity to clear it up.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

The aforementioned Beretta 92 is extremely common. Someone claimed in this thread that safe is down, up is fire, but I don't think that's true. At least, not in the 2 beretta models I've shot.. something like that would stick out in my mind as unusual.

This is the case on the Beretta 92/99 and Cougar double action pistols; the slide-mounted decocking lever also acts as a safety in the down position. When the lever is in the up (fire) position a red dot is exposed. The older or single action Beretta autos, like the Brigadier or the Bobcat have a frame-mounted safety similar to the Hi-Power and other JMB designs that functions as you suggest.

Originally Posted by Jayrot

I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly is meant by rule #1? If someone hands you a gun that is visibly unloaded, why do you have to treat it like it's loaded? I don't mean "I'm pretty sure it's unloaded", but rather "absolutely unloaded".

And firearm that is in battery (slide or bolt closed, cylinder in the locked position, breach/block closed) is a loaded weapon...period. Not "assumed to be loaded", not "treat it as loaded'; it's ready to fire.

As far as the rules that everyone is referring to, here they are:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are unwilling to destroy.
3. Finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target.
4. Know your target and what is behind it.

If you don't violate these rules then shooting accidents (other than the rare mechanical failure) don't happen. Period.

I second the various statements about not handling a firearm if you have not been properly trained to do so. A firearm is a tool, but a very potent one, mechanically complex and literally capable of doing mortal damage in a heartbeat. If you have to pick up a firearm in an emergency and are unfamiliar with it's operation, it's already too late.

Safe gun handling, along with first aid/CPR, basic living skills (cooking, sewing, simple home repair), and sex education should all be presented in school. You may not like, own, or regularly handle firearms but you should know how to safely disarm or manipulate one if the occasion arises.

Stranger

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

Safe gun handling, along with first aid/CPR, basic living skills (cooking, sewing, simple home repair), and sex education should all be presented in school.

And if they're not, responsible parents should either teach it themselves or find another group that does. I sold all of my firearms when I had children, and put the kids through 4-H gun training as soon as they were old enough. Even though there were no guns in my house, I knew they could easily end up finding a gun in a friend's house, and I wanted them to understand the fundamentals of gun safety early.

Of course, I covered the four rules with them long before they were old enough to attend 4-H gun training.

[Jayrot]

Thanks for the clarification, everyone. Makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Padeye

I know carries extra rounds during a stage in case one is dropped becasue picking dropped rounds is forbidden.

OK, so what's the reasoning for this?

Also, (please believe me, I'm not trying to be an ass) if you always assume that a gun is loaded. How could you possibly follow rule #2 without exception. OK, so perhaps I am being pedantic, but if the idea behind the 4 rules is to NEVER break them how could you possibly move a gun around without pointing it at stuff? Maybe the answer is to always keep it pointed straight up in the air, but what about people on the second floor? (rule #4)

[SenorBeef]

You don't point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy. So, don't point it at a person, a pet, or a fancy stereo system. When handling, depending on situation, it can be pointed at a backstop, the ground, into the air, etc.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by Jayrot

How could you possibly follow rule #2 without exception. OK, so perhaps I am being pedantic, but if the idea behind the 4 rules is to NEVER break them how could you possibly move a gun around without pointing it at stuff? Maybe the answer is to always keep it pointed straight up in the air, but what about people on the second floor? (rule #4)

I don't find this to be a problem as far as handling a firearm, which is what the rules apply to. When the gun in a case or a holster (as it should be when being transported) then it's not an issue; a secured weapon isn't going to spontaneous go off. When in hand and in battery, there is no reason it should be pointed at anyone or anything valuable. If you are carrying it indoors, or around other people, it should be out of battery, i.e. slide locked back, cylinder swung out, bolt open, whatever applies, such that other people can see that the weapon is not going to fire.

Stranger

[Padeye]

Jayrot, I'm not sure what question you are asking so I'll answer both.

Action shooting is different than normal bulleseye shooting since the shooter's score is based on the lowest number of seconds to finish a course of fire with penalty points added for non-safety infractions such as shooting targets out of order or from the wrong location. The course of fire usually involves things other than making bullets hit the target such as the shooter running between stations, hiding behind barricades and reloading a weapon. All of this happens "on the clock" so there is motivation to do everything as quickly as possible. This raises potential risks so the shooter is always shadowed by a safety officer not more than an arm's length behind who can stop the shooter if he does something dangerous. Trying to pick up a dropped magazine or loose ammuntion from the ground can be extremely risky if the shooter has a weapon in his hand and there is real potential for a shooter in extreme haste to shoot himself. This is a risk even with a holstered handgun since a shooter bending over to pick up ammuntion may allow the muzzle of his weapon to point slightly behind him toward spectators. For this reason all dropped ammunition is considered dead and may not be used during that stage. I'm not aware of any sanctioned action shooting that allows this.

[Mr. Duality]

On a TEC-9 the safety is operated by the knob one grasps to manually operate the bolt. Pushing in engages the safety, pulling it out makes the weapon fireable.

[empty filing cabinet]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

don't point it at a person, a pet, ... When handling, depending on situation, it can be pointed at a backstop, the ground, into the air, etc.

That reminds me of a scene in a movie I saw. Down In The Delta , I think it was. An urban mom takes her two young-ish kids back to rural Mississippi, to spend time with the grandparents on the farm. The older kid is having a great time shooting a rifle, enjoying it immensely.

Granddad is teaching him about guns and what guns do. So he sets up a small paper target on a strawbale. Kid shoots at it, hits it multiple times from a good distance, is ecstatic. They go out to get the target. Behind the paper target, granddad had hidden ... the kid's favoritist teddy bear in the whole world.