Why is Judy Garland a gay icon? Something she said or her work just appeals to gays?

[Revtim]

Do many gay folks admire her simply for her work, or did she also ever say anything supportive of gay people?

Had she ever mentioned gays at all, supportive or otherwise?

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by Revtim

Do many gay folks admire her simply for her work, or did she also ever say anything supportive of gay people?

Had she ever mentioned gays at all, supportive or otherwise?

Didn't she wear rather mannish outfits later in her career?

Marc

[DMark]

I think there are about 10,500 books on the subject, so don't exactly know where to begin.

Many Gay men identified with her on screen/on stage vulnerability and with her off-stage constant setbacks and comebacks from adversity.

She certainly was aware of the fact that huge numbers of Gay men were her fans, and even though there are a few less-than-positive remarks she made about the fact, for the most part she played to her Gay audience and made them feel welcomed.

And though I wasn't old enough to be there, from what I have been by guys who were there, it was quite the event to be Gay and go to a Judy Garland concert. Imagine the biggest Gay bar in town and there you were in the front row.

[Walloon]

Didn't she joke that when she dies, the flags on Fire Ireland (NY) will be at half staff?

[Walloon]

Sorry, Fire Island.

[VernWinterbottom]

I always thought it was based on the symbolism of "Over the Rainbow," representing a mythical place where gays are completely accepted by everyone.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Walloon

Didn't she joke that when she dies, the flags on Fire Island (NY) will be at half staff?

Yes she did, and the irony is that the birth of the modern Gay Rights movement in America is usually attributed to the weekend of her death (though the exact role her death played in it is up for debate).

[Moirai]

Didn't Judy marry a gay man (Vincente Minelli)? And didn't her daughter Liza keep up the family tradition by marrying not one, but two gay men (Peter Allen & David Gest)?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[HPL]

Originally Posted by VernWinterbottom

I always thought it was based on the symbolism of "Over the Rainbow," representing a mythical place where gays are completely accepted by everyone.

I never realized that's what Oz was a Metaphor for........

"Scrub Scrub, here! Scrub Scrub, there!
And a couple of tra-de-das!
A man can wash another man in the merry old land of OZ!"

[asterion]

Originally Posted by HPL

I never realized that's what Oz was a Metaphor for........

"Scrub Scrub, here! Scrub Scrub, there!
And a couple of tra-de-das!
A man can wash another man in the merry old land of OZ!"

Somebody's been watching Family Guy....

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by EJsGirl

Didn't Judy marry a gay man (Vincente Minelli)? And didn't her daughter Liza keep up the family tradition by marrying not one, but two gay men (Peter Allen & David Gest)?

Judy's father, Frank Gumm, was also gay. Had Liza had children with Peter Allen or David Gest, it's very likely that a vortex would have opened and all of the world would have become gay. (Of course Natasha Richardson's family tree has lavendar blossoms as well; her grandfather, father and two uncles are all gay, and while husband Liam Neeson isn't, he did play Oscar Wilde which counts for something.)

Originally Posted by EJsGirl

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Being gay, no. Being gay and marrying uninformed women- that's another story.

[Walloon]

Vincente Minnelli had three wives and two children. While he didn't come across as the most masculine of men, I wouldn't call him gay either.

[Charlie Tan]

On a tangent, since it's propably been answered a million times before and doesn't merit its own thread: What's the deal with Streisand?

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by The Gaspode

What's the deal with Streisand?

He's the best damned drag queen there ever was.

[Gatopescado]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

He's the best damned drag queen there ever was.

or should it be ;j ?

[H3Knuckles]

That last joke was my personaly payoff for reading this entire thread.

Thanks!

[H3Knuckles]

that should be personal, NOT personaly

[plnnr]

Originally Posted by Walloon

Vincente Minnelli had three wives and two children. While he didn't come across as the most masculine of men, I wouldn't call him gay either.

Insofar that Judy Garland came home and caught him having sex with another man in their bed, I wouldn't call him straight either.

IIRC, Judy Garland's last husband was bisexual as well.

[Walloon]

On what authority is that Garland-Minnelli anecdote?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by plnnr

IIRC, Judy Garland's last husband was bisexual as well.

And had an affair with Peter Allen while the latter was married to li'l Liza, if I remember my gay scandal iconage correctly...

[plnnr]

Originally Posted by Walloon

On what authority is that Garland-Minnelli anecdote?

A biography of Minnelli that appeared on Turner Classic Movies. I can't recall the who actually wrote the script, but Minnelli's sexual preference has been pretty much common knowledge for a long time.

[Walloon]

Well, what was his sexual preference? How is this knowable?

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by The Gaspode

On a tangent, since it's propably been answered a million times before and doesn't merit its own thread: What's the deal with Streisand?

Never mind Streisand; whatintheheck is with Dinah Shore and the Dinah Shore Women's Weekend in Palm Springs? I mean hordes of lesbian women cutting loose is the ultimate Girls Gone Wild video, but how in the heck did that get started? As far as I know she wasn't a dyke.

As for celebrities that should have been but weren't gay icons, I'm surprise Katherine Hepburn doesn't rank up there Not that she was gay, but she did pretty much pioneer the whole brash, outspoken, anti-marriage and children, pants-wearing, minimum makeup persona long before Ellen DeGeneres was even a wiggling zygote; she was sort of the anti-Donna Reed.

Stranger

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

As for celebrities that should have been but weren't gay icons, I'm surprise Katherine Hepburn doesn't rank up there

Oh, she does. Name a diva from the Golden Age of Hollywood and she has or had her devotees among the homorati.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Judy's father, Frank Gumm, was also gay. Had Liza had children with Peter Allen or David Gest, it's very likely that a vortex would have opened and all of the world would have become gay.

For God's sake, don't tell them The Agenda!

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Walloon

Well, what was his sexual preference? How is this knowable?

Generally speaking, when straight guys fool around on their wives, it's with women. Or to paraphrase a quote from the play/movie Torch Song Trilogy, "I suppose bisexual men are possible, but it's very rare that you hear of a man sneaking out while his boyfriend is sleeping to go have sex with his girlfriend."

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Miller

For God's sake, don't tell them The Agenda!

Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

[Mockingbird]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Ick.

I'd prefer either a wine and cheese party with Chopin playing or a mosh pit with Front 242 headlining with Ministry.

Foam party. Blech.

I don't need to go for a pretense to feel people up. I just get their permission.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Can we make that a Balloon Party instead? It's just that bubble foam gives me a really nasty rash...

[jayjay]

*whispers* Folks, this is why we haven't taken over the world yet...like herding cats, honestly... *whisper*

[panache45]

Of all the gay icons, Judy was the only one who didn't have a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for being a bitch. Not that she couldn't cut someone down to size, but it never overshadowed her vulnerability.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Okay, that image, that right there? That just rendered me asexual. I hope you're happy.

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Okay, that image, that right there? That just rendered me asexual. I hope you're happy.

That usually doesn't happen to a woman until I date her.

[Priam]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Generally speaking, when straight guys fool around on their wives, it's with women. Or to paraphrase a quote from the play/movie Torch Song Trilogy, "I suppose bisexual men are possible, but it's very rare that you hear of a man sneaking out while his boyfriend is sleeping to go have sex with his girlfriend."

*sheepishly raises his hand* Well... not exactly, but something like that

[Walloon]

Originally Posted by panache45

Of all the gay icons, Judy was the only one who didn't have a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for being a bitch.

Maybe not actually calling her a bitch, but check out Mel Tormé's book The Other Side of the Rainbow, about working on her CBS show, or Dirk Bogarde's account, in his autobiography, about what she was like when he made a movie with her.

[Walloon]

Originally Posted by jayjay

And had an affair with Peter Allen while the latter was married to li'l Liza, if I remember my gay scandal iconage correctly...

No, that was husband number four.

[Dunderman]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Okay, that image, that right there? That just rendered me asexual. I hope you're happy.

Really? It got me kinda hot.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by panache45

Of all the gay icons, Judy was the only one who didn't have a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for being a bitch. Not that she couldn't cut someone down to size, but it never overshadowed her vulnerability.

Oops, I forgot about Marilyn. Most people who knew her describe her as "sweet."

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Walloon

Maybe not actually calling her a bitch, but check out Mel Tormé's book The Other Side of the Rainbow, about working on her CBS show, or Dirk Bogarde's account, in his autobiography, about what she was like when he made a movie with her.

Haven't read Bogarde's book but what I've read of Torme's reeks of bitterness. According to a number of sources quoted in Rainbow's End: The Judy Garland Show and other Garland books (and as a side note, should there be any more Garland books may we have a moratorium on the use of the word "rainbow" in the title?), Torme was fired for cause from her CBS show.

[sjc]

I may be totally wrong, but I heard that she slept with at least one woman. I don't really remember where I heard it, but I seem to recall reading it somewhere.

I don't know if this has anything to do with the OP, just thought i'd mention it.

Does anyone know if this is true?

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by sjc

I may be totally wrong, but I heard that she slept with at least one woman. I don't really remember where I heard it, but I seem to recall reading it somewhere.

I don't know if this has anything to do with the OP, just thought i'd mention it.

Does anyone know if this is true?

And if you have pictures, please post them.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by sjc

I may be totally wrong, but I heard that she slept with at least one woman. I don't really remember where I heard it, but I seem to recall reading it somewhere.

From Gerald Clarke's Garland bio, Get Happy: The Life of Judy Garland:

Originally Posted by Gerald Clarke

Judy felt frisky with others as well, including, almost certainly, at least two or three women, the only relationships about which she remained mum. When [a male lover] informed her that he had heard she was involved with another woman, her response was uncharacteristically vague. "You know," she said, "when you've eaten everything in the world there is to eat, you've got to find new things." Women were, in any event, never more than a side dish on Judy's menu -- men were always her main course -- and although a few always followed her around from city to city, she was not drawn to lesbians.

[Sampiro]

Hmm. I wonder if Judy ever made it with Ethel Merman (who supposedly had a fling with Jacqueline Susann among other dames). That could have produced one of those "gay midichlorian virgin birth" things as well.

[Otto]

That certainly would bring new levels of meaning to "anything you can do, I can do better"...

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Otto

That certainly would bring new levels of meaning to "anything you can do, I can do better"...

Or for that matter, "You're the top..."

[Stark Raven Mad]

Originally Posted by jayjay

Or for that matter, "You're the top..."

Blow, Gabriel, Blow?