is a clitorous really a undeveloped penis called a “interferential organ”?
They develop in different ways from the same structures, but to call the female version ‘undeveloped’ sounds a bit like a perpetuation of the ancient myth than women are imperfect versions of men.
I’ve never heard it called an ‘interferential organ’ and I don’t think that term applies to it anyway. A better way to phrase your question would be: Is a penis an overdeveloped clitoris? And the answer would be ‘yes.’ In the male, the clitoris develops into a penis and the outter labia fuse to become the scrotum.
This sounds a bit like a perpetuation of the more recent myth that men are imperfect versions of women.
And your source for this ‘factual’ information is… ?
On the contrary, all fetus begin essential as bisexual. That is why men have nipples. Why do men have nipples?
So to be more accurate, the clitorus and penis both begin in a form that is neither penis or clitoris. A sort of biological placeholder for sexual organ until the baby can produce his/her own sexual hormones. But to be fair, the mother is supplying a good source of estrogen to the fetus, and the sexual organs more closely resemble female parts than male.
Fetal sexual developement is some bizarre and wacky stuff. Did you know that many newborns, both male and female, can produce milk from their nipples because of the estrogen heavy blood supply from mom? Also, some female newborns have produced a “period” like blood show shortly after birth.
:dubious: Are you being contrary to me or contrary to kimera? You responding with “on the contrary” to a direct quote of my post kind of implies the contrariness is directed at me, but as far as I can tell, you don’t actually disagree with me…
(Also, I don’t think ‘bisexual’ is quite the word to use here.)
“Intersexed.”
Nah, it’s just basic biology. We all start out as heading towards female and then a gene which is typically found on the Y chromosome either activates or doesn’t. If it activitates then the fetus typically develops into a male, although if testosterone is not properly recieved by the fetus then the child will have female genitalia although she is XY.
Here are the equivalents of other parts.
Shaft of clit - shaft of penis
Hood of clit - foreskin of penis
Labia majora - sac
Labia minora - underside of penile shaft
ovaries - testes
silk1976, basic human biology. Go take a human sexuality course at your local college.
Under normal development, a fetus with Y-chromosomes will develop into a male, while a fetus without Y-chromosomes will develop into a female. I do not see how this consitutes “starting out as heading towards female”.
I am aware that female and male sex organs both develop from the same proto-organs. But it does not make sense to consider this early development to be ‘female’. Precisely because the early development of male and female fetuses is identical, it does not belong to one sex more than the other.
No, in humans, it is not just the Y-chromosome that results in the development of the male. There is a certain region on the Y-chromosome which results in the development of the testes which results in testosterone which results in the development of the male genitalia. If this specific region is not present, the fetus will continue developing into a female. So, if testosterone is not properly recieved by the fetus, female genitalia will result so you end up with a child that is chromosomally male but has female genitalia. In fruit flies, it is the presence of two X chromosomes that result in a female so that a XO fruitfly will be male and in birds, the situation is reversed with XY being female and XX being male, so it is an important distinction to make.
No, what? Nothing you wrote contradicts what I wrote: under normal development, one set of circumstances leads to a male fetus, another set of circumstances leads to a female fetus.
There are indeed circumstances that will lead to an XY-fetus developing into a female. However, even in the case of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, the result is not identical to an XX-woman - the woman in question will have no uterus, and testes rather than overies. And, going by Sampiro’s post here, there are also cases of XX-fetuses developing into males (though I don’t have any sources on that, so I’m assuming he knows what he’s talking about).
So I still do not see how this adds up to female as default.
We are just arguing semantics. I view the situation one way, you view it another.
See, this is where I see it differently. The way I see it as the fetus is evolving to a female and then a mutation occurs which makes it male. I started seeing it this way after learning in my bio of sex class that males are mutated females who exist so females could have sex with each other. It’s just a different way of looking at the situation. I don’t know how to explain it other than drawing a chart.
I never said that she would be identical to an XX female. (xx-female is the correct term, not xx-woman) I was trying to show how the development is toward the female UNLESS certain conditions happen. Some people call women with AIS female, others consider them male, it depends on what you look at.
Yes, he does know what he is talking about. It is because there is a certain region on the Y chromosome that is responsible and if that region gets switched over you can have an XX male and an XY female.
Or surf porn sites for she-males…or so I’m told. 
rwj
It’s not a very productive way of looking at it, though. For one thing, fetuses do not “evolve”, except in the literal, archaic sense of the word. In common parlance, individuals do not evolve - they develop.
Further, males are not “mutated females”. One of the side effects of sexual reproduction (which is characterized by meiosis and “syngamy” [the recombination of haploid gametes]) is anisogamy - the presence of two types of sex cells. In other words, eggs and sperm evolved together. The separate sexes themselves would necessarily have to have evolved simultaneously (with one another, not necessarily with the evolution of separate sex cells themselves), as well.
As for the sex organs themselves, they begin undifferentiated. Gonadal development is regulated by genes (meaning whether you get testes or ovaries is genetic, not hormonal). The appearance of the external anatomy depends on subsequent hormonal control: if testosterone and Mullerian inhibiting substance (MIS) are not present, then external anatomy develops along female lines. If both are present, then development proceeds among male lines. But, just because subsequent development may proceed along female lines in the absence of certain hormones does not mean the embryo “begins” as female.
Or, to put it another way, it is simply not true that “the clitoris develops into a penis and the outter labia fuse to become the scrotum.” Both are derived from the same progenitors, but one does not develop from the other.
On the contrary? How is what you said contrary to my post (the bit you didn’t quote)?
Yes, they start out the same; my point is that it used to be believed (by the Greeks, IIRC) that the male form was the perfect one and the female was a corrupted copy and that this sounded similar to the theme of the OP.
We’re muddying the waters by talking about intersex and similar conditions, but I’ll try and expand a little.
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), is the most common cause of intersex, resulting in a virilised female due to overproduction of androgens by the foetal adrenal glands. It is commonly caused by a deficiency in 21-hydroxylase, one of the enzymes needed to create the steroid hormones aldosterone and cortisol. When the body cannot make aldosterone and cortisol, the excess precursors are channelled into making testosterone.
Turner’s Syndrome (XO women) results in women without normal ovaries and who need exogenous progesterone and oestrogen to develop normal secondary sexual characteristics. Although they cannot conceive a genetic child of their own, they may be able to carry a pregnancy (created with a donor ovum) to term.
5-alpha reductase deficiency is an enzyme deficiency which means that testosterone isn’t properly converted to dihydrotestosterone, a more available form of the hormone. Because of this male babies are born with feminised external genitalia, but male internal genitalia. If the condition is not recognised, or left uncorrected (as often happens in the developing world) during puberty the amount of testosterone producd by the testes is so great that some of it is able to overcome the block, and considerable virilisation occurs. In this case the male habitus at puberty is associated with gender conversion, so the formerly female child will often self-identify as male. HOWEVER, in the west, if this disorder is recognised early, the testes will be removed prior to puberty (because of the risk of cancer if they are left abdominally) and the child will continue to be raised, and usually identify, as female.
Androgen Insensitivity (formerly known as Testicular Feminisation Syndrome) is the condition normally associated with XY women. In this case the male foetus produces lots of androgens, but the cells do not have the correct receptors, and so the androgen has not effect. These individuals are born with externally feminised genitalia, and unlike with 5 alpha reductase deficiency, this will never spontaneously correct. If testes are present in the abdomen, they are removed, and the child is given female hormones at puberty. These individuals will almost always have a female habitus and gender identity.
True hermaphroditism (possesing both ovaries and testes) is incredibly rare.
To hijack somewhat:
Wasn’t Wallis Simpson supposed to have had Androgen Insensitivity? I.e., genetically XY but insensitive to the male hormones, so she externally and psychologically was a woman? Many people in this situation are apparently taller than the average XX woman, slender with slim hips and small breasts, and also quite attractive.
In that case, we might as well answer the OP with a yes. Sure the clitoris is an underdeveloped penis. Why not? It’s just a different way of looking at things…
Thank you for the correction. I am somewhat hesitant, however, of taking terminology advice from someone who refers to an ordinary stage in fetal development as a “mutation”.
I don’t know whether your teacher in that course was afflicted with incompetence or politics or something else, but whatever it was, they didn’t do a very good job teaching you.
And the development is toward the male UNLESS certain other conditions happen. And sometimes NEITHER set of circumstances occur, and you get an intersexed individual.
AIS is cause by a mutated gene on the X-chromosome. XX carriers of the gene show some of the symptoms of AIS, such as decreased pubic hair. I would like a cite that the Y-chromosome is involved.
Adult men can spontaneously produce milk in the right circumstances and can be induced to produce milk with hormones.
TMI alert
Loren’s was more like a full blown nearly week long period passing clots and all just like mommy; seemingly with cramps and all poor thing. The doctor checked her with those little lighted things they look into your ears with to make sure that the blood and clots were coming fromher cervix, which they were. He also did blood cellcounts to make sure she was not becoming anemic from the blood loss. She did not, but there was a lot of blood for such a little person to lose.