I heard on a radio show the other day the rather fantastic (it seemed to me) claim that it is standard practice for Saudi customs to confiscate and shred any Bibles encountered in incoming peoples’ luggage. This was undoubtably aired as some sort of response to the recent flap over Newsweek’s recanted story of U.S. interrogators flushing a Koran down a toilet (which makes me wonder about the capacity of the toilet).
So, is there any truth to it?
I thought that the general rule (in Saudi) was that you are allowed to bring in a bible for personal use but not allowed to bring in a number of bibles which would clearly suggest you intend to hand them out.
On googling “bibles saudi” I see that all the top hits concern the saudis shredding bibles so I’m guessing that this is some newish story that’s getting popular exposure at the moment. Far as I’m aware though, you’re allowed to bring in one bible for yourself.
One of the reasons for this is that there is a hadith in which Mohammed said:
“Let there not be two religions on the peninsular” (ie Arabia)
These were, in fact, the last words Mohammed ever said - he said them on his death bed. This is often used to justify the Saudis peculiar rules on allowing other religions to prosletyse in Saudi.
On a separate note, I was wondering whether it would be legal to actually form a company that prints verses of the bible (or the koran) on toilet paper. I reckon there would be plenty of atheists and agnostics out there willing to buy it - you could read Jesus or Mohammed’s latest musings and then wipe your arse with it.
I realise that this would cause great offence to a lot of people but that’s half the point. Would it be legal to print such toilet paper - it may be a profitable business? I’m guessing the business would be closed down on “public order” grounds or something.
Shame - I’d buy it.
In the US it would, and I’m sure someone has already thought off it. I can’t say about other countries though. I’m pretty sure if you did that in an Islamic country you’d get in alot of trouble!
It depends on your port of entry.
I’m military, and brought my bible to Kuwait and Qatar. The caveat is that while each nations’ customs could full well want to search my bags, the fact that I was on a military flight/military charter kinda-sorta dictated that they wouldn’t. However, for military members in the AOR, the ‘General Order #1’ includes the prohibition of prostheletizing (sp?)–in that, you may observe your religion, but may not profess or preach it to others.
Given that, if you enter through KCIA (Kuwait City Int’l Airport) with a stack of bibles, they’d look at you funny. If you go to customs with a single bible and explain that it’s for your personal use, you would probably be able to go through.
But then again, this depends on the country. I speculate based on my own personal experience, so YMMV.
Tripler
Yeah, a lot of help, ain’t I?
A personal Bible is perfectly legal in the Gulf. If you bring a stack in for conversion purposes you are “in trouble” (which in most cases I imagine would entail deportation/repatriation).
The international media stories - before Newsweek - discuss various abuses of the Quran involving toilets but not necessarily “flushing one down” which does seem rather improbable.
I worked in Saudi for some time and I can definitely say that the bible would **not ** be allowed into the country - no way.
With foreign military now active in that country there may be some tolerance due to the logistics of thoroughly checking every bag and also I doubt the military personnel mix much with the locals so not much chance of contamination.
On the other hand when working there I came in on a commercial flight through a regular airport and believe me they check everything even using power drills to check your shoe heels for who knows what. Any magazines or books you have they go through every page and either rip out or black marker out any pictures of other religions Buddha, Christ you name it.
You cannot wear a crucifix or any religious icon, if the “religious police” (I forget their name at the moment) see a chain round your neck they can stop you to check what is attached to it and give you a hard time if it is some thing not of their faith.
We in the West are very tolerant to other cultures and faiths, it is only when you go to live in those countries that you get some idea how fanatically intolerant those other cultures are to us.
What Trip said.
A personal-use Bible is allowed. Full stop. No problem. A Bible in Arabic would be darn had to explain. Religious figurines would be darn offensive.
True story; years ago one of my guys brought in a suitcase full of Arabic Bibles and tracts. The kid was an idiot. He was found out by Customs, who seized his stuff. We had to go get him.
Not much ever became of it. He had to pay a nine thousand riyal fine, about two thousand US dollars. Then we fired him.
Darn shame they did not jail him, in my opinion.
I have never even heard of anyone having a necklace checked for a religious medallion. Not ever.
I have been here almost ten years. I think I am a bit of an expert.
Excuse me? Jail him for having Arabic bibles? You honestly advocate this?
People who violate the rules should be punished. Do you take exception to that? Why?
We are guests here. We are expected to behave as good guests. Preaching an out-of-town religion would ruin (and perhaps shorten) the lives of those who converted, it would destroy their families, it would damage their society.
The young man of which we speak reflected poorly upon all of us foreigners who live here. He hurt my reputation. He did what he did on purpose, he did it because he did not care about the law, about people or society.
He got off (I think) because he was an American. Darn shame.
If you want to visit other people’s cultures, then respect them. If you cannot take it, stay at home.
I think the point is that anyone bringing an Arabic bible is bringing it for the purpose of trying to convert Arabic-speaking peoples (ie Saudis, ie Muslims). Paul is advocating following the rules of the foreign country that you’re in. I think that’s a damn good idea.
As a hypothetical for-instance, say a man from a country where child porn is allowed tried to bring in books full of pictures of naked kids into America. What would happen at customs, do you think? Would you complain if this man had his child porn destroyed?
I know that’s not exactly an accurate analogy, and I’m NOT attempting to directly compare any religion to child porn, but it’s the best I could do off the cuff. It’s tough to find an apt example when the USA allows freedom of religion, thought and information, for the most part. If you’re just railing on the lack of freedoms in Saudi Arabia, I think that’s GD territory.
Not just that, but he is trying to enhance the safety of others who follow the rules. In the Gulf, things like this get the locals angry and violent and this can have terrible repurcussions in the Western enclaves.
Saudi Arabia is considered part of the Western world.
(I was going to post:)
Really? By who?
(But that would be snarky and out-of-character, so I did not post it. So there.)
I’m sure what Paul and others say is good information, I can only relate on my own experiences. Paul has been in Saudi for 10 years, I bet he lives in a compound of an international company and over the years with the benefit of his company’s standing and protection has accepted the lifestyle in Saudi as OK.
I have worked in Saudi on several occasions and when I worked for a big outfit felt the same, only when I went for my last time working for a small outfit without the benefit of living in a compound without all the benefits and protection of a large international company that I found out what life is really like for foreigners.
I am not making this stuff up. There are no cinemas, no pubs, no clubs; the TV is censored as are any videos you can buy. Restaurants are segregated with families (women) in one part and single guys somewhere else. And yes if you walk around the male only shopping malls you can be checked by the “religious police”
By and large I understand that description of Saudi by Fargesto to be largely correct, but it should also be noted that Saudi is far more rigorous with this stuff than its neighbors. If the difference were purely cultural the other penninsular states would be as harsh. But Saudi has a (self-projected to be sure) “special” image symbolically and literally as a center of Islam, as the country containing the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, and this “purity security” need. They want to show the rest of the Muslim world that they can keep these places “clean.”
The line is political more than cultural. My experience in the Gulf just across the (rather arbitrarily drawn) borders from the Saudi government , where people have larger if not very much the same religious and cultural backgrounds, were that you could work and live in these places with your own books, movies, music, hold your own worship services, etc., just so long as you weren’t flaunting it in the face of these tradtional cultures. We’re talking about countries where guest workers outnumber natives and their paranoia over cultural and religious erosion… well, may not be paranoia.
But in Qatar, the UAE, Oman… I’d say it’s easier for a young person to buy a beer at a hotel bar, buy condoms at a drug store, or buy an uncensored version of a Nirvana CD at the mall than it is here (the US). The line gets drawn at access for their own people, not the western population, thus the movies at the movies are censored (for sex not violence!) and the *Sports Illustrated * swimsuit issue isn’t available at the Carrefour. But if you bring that sort of thing in your carry on you’re OK, and people watch and read and listen to pretty much whatever they want at home. I ordered books online via the mail when I lived in the Gulf & always received the packages un-tampered.
I don’t take exception to people being punished for violating rules, I take exception to this rule itself. You really believe that bringing in a bunch of bibles deserves a jail sentence? To me this is rediculous. Surely you can think of much worse “crimes” than packing some bibles in your suitcase!
The rule protects this society’s very foundation. This fellow attacked the basis for this country’s existence, its reason for being, its identity. You can disagree with the law, but it is the local law. We should respect it as any good guest respects his host.
Your nation (whatever it might be, I did not look) has rules I disagree with. I do not knowingly violate them. When I am in your country I try to follow the law. When I am here, I try to do the same.
It is not up to us to recast the world in our own image. As much as possible, we must work with and learn from each other. Only in the most extreme cases should we impose ourselves on others.
I’m not saying I agree with all of my country’s laws. I’m not saying Saudi Arabia’s laws should be violated. I was just expressing the opinion that it’s absurd to jail someone for bringing in a bunch of bibles.
Even if the person knows that the Bibles are prohibited?
It’s their country, their law. You break it, you face consequences. How is this absurd?