Any correlation between economic health and government's share of GDP?

In thise GD thread on America’s budget deficits and financial health – "Heritage foundation and Brookings Institute thinkers agree: We’re in trouble. " – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317262Sam Stone posted the following:

The phrase about taxes having “little room to go up without hurting the economy” reflects an unstated assumption, which I often encounter among economic conservatives or libertarians, that, entirely irrespective of deficit spending, the lower the level of government taxing-and-spending is proportional to GDP, the better off the national economy is. This is assumed to be an obvious rule of economics, unrelated to any value judgment that biggummint-is-bad. What proof is there for it? Leaving aside command economies like North Korea where the government’s share of the GDP approaches 100%, how is a huge government budget bad for a national economy? After all, when government collects taxes it does not withdraw the money from circulation; it immediately spends all it has collected (and usually more). Government pays its own employees, who spend it on the necessities of their lives; government buys things it needs from private business enterprises; government issues welfare payments to people who use them to pay the rent, or spend them at the local grocery store. In other words, government pumps the money back into the economy and keeps the wheels turning round. How does that retard general prosperity?

Circulating money around isn’t likely to be very productive. If I take some money from you and give it to Sam Stone, I haven’t created anything. Plus, I have to skim a little off the top for overhead.

Government money invested in infrastructure can certainly be beneficial to an economy. The trick, of course, is knowing what infrastructure projects are best and how much is needed when.

It should be noted however that most private corporations have red tape and overhead as well. Furtheremore, if the corporation is run well they also make a profit. Then there is money spent on advertising and marketing the product. The government doesn’t have these expenses to account for.

Is anything really created when money gets distributed from me to the shareholders in the form of profit, for example? Do I really want to pay for advertising costs when I send my kids to school for example?

:dubious:

IANAE, but from message board talks with those who proport to be, the circulation of money is the essence of productivity and the life blood of an economy.

Do you think having wealth sitting still is the key to the country’s productivity? I am anxious to hear from anyone with training in economics as to whether there is any merit in your assertion above.

Note: I am not an economist. However, I am a recent business management graduate with several econ courses under my belt. Most of what I talk about is taken from those classes.

The circulation of money is, of course, one major mover of the overall economy. This should be obvious. People stashing their wealth under the mattress are, in effect, removing that cash from society for a time. People spending more and more of their wealth, or even just putting money into a bank account, are spreading cash around to be invested over and over into new ventures. Growth is sustained, wheels turn, projects blossom. All of this is, of course, the ideal situation. In this thought experiment, the worst thing that could happen to the economy is a large portion of the population losing faith in everything but the old jar under the bed trick.

Government taxing and spending? Well it rather depends on where the money is going. From a purely short- to medium-term economic perspective, not considering the moral ramifications, foreign aid is burning money for the USA. Consider a shipment of grain to, say, Darfur. Will the food given to refugees entice those same people to spend capital that would otherwise have gone to buying a meal? Perhaps. Will it be very much? No. Will we in the US see even a decent margin of that spending? No.

On the flipside, welfare checks sent to U.S. citizens would, at least to my semi-trained eye, go right back into the system. They get cashed, they get spent almost immediately. Most of the people receiving these checks don’t really have an option to withhold some portion for any length of time. If they want to eat, get clothed, pay the rent… the money gets spent almost before it even arrives.

However, there is a fundamental difference between government spending and government deficit. When a country acquires a deficit, usually through the issuing of bonds to private citizens, it is then locked in to pay interest on each bond issued until it comes due. At that point, the bond’s original value is repaid. All very neat and tidy, as the government is essentially borrowing from its own society. The trouble comes in on two fronts and they can get kinda complicated, so bear with me.

First, the government drawing in money through bonds means that less capital is around for banks and large corporations to acquire. Joe Blow has given his money to the government, not to U.S. Bank. This means U.S. Bank needs to offer more interest on its accounts to attract people from government bonds. It then follows that U.S. Bank, in order to pay the increased costs on interest, must charge more on the money it loans out. This means Smith, Inc. ends up getting charged 20% interest on the loan it wants to take out to expand its plant. Smith, Inc. is suddenly left wondering whether it can even afford to expand that plant anymore. Is it profitable with interest rates being what they are? Maybe the CEO decides to postpone that til next year.

The second piece is much simpler: the more deficit the government racks up, the more money goes to simply paying out interest on its bonds. This means more bonds are issued, with a large deficit being built up and less money to go around. At some point, an approximate upper limit is reached to money raised through bonds. After that, simply servicing the debt takes up money that may have gone to programs that more immediately affect the economy. Worst case scenario? The government is spending all the money paying interest out. However, even in the best case scenario, what money trickles back to Joe Blow investor via interest is probably socked away rather than spent immediately. To Joe, it’s an investment for the future. Will it eventually circulate back to the economy? Of course. Especially if he puts the interest into his savings account. Will it have as much effect as spending the larger amount he used to purchase a bond? Not for a while.

Make any sense? Anyone wanna correct my lessons? I’ll admit I fell asleep from time to time in my morning classes.

Circulating in the market yes, but my example was simply taking some money from person X and giving it to person Y. Not an exchange, but a redistribution.

Define sitting still. People generally don’t stuff their excess cash in a matress. Even if it’s in bank account, that money is lent out for investments or other market transactions.

But why would the one stimulate the economy any more or less than the other?

I find it’s easier for me to comprehend money transfer by translating it into energy. There is a finite amount of energy within a system. When I transfer some money from myself to my friend Hanna, I am losing energy while she is gaining it. In exchange for that loss of energy, I receive something. Sometimes what I receive is nothing more than goodwill, but I do receive something. Hanna then has the energy to go out and get a meal. In exchange for that meal, Hanna has given, say, Longhorn Steakhouse some energy to launch a new restaurant in Charlotte. Energy circulates. The question is, in economic terms, which transfer gave the most benefit? Why, the purchase Hanna made at Longhorn. It boosts the economy in another area, provides jobs, increases tax revenues, etc. All my transfer to Hanna did was benefit Hanna.

In the end, I would argue, it all does have similar impact. The difference is in time frame, where simple redistribution can sometimes take a while to have a serious effect on the economy. This also brings into play socio-economic factors. Consider: I am a middle class American. If I am given $20 by a friend, I may just keep that money in my wallet for weeks before spending it. In my wallet, that money is out of circulation. Now consider if I were an American living just on the poverty line and I received $20. Would I keep that money in my wallet for weeks? No. I’d spend it almost immediately, because I don’t have a lot of other money to go around.

I think I might’ve gotten sidetracked there. Forgive me if that’s the case.

Except there’s not a finite amount of money in the system. Economies can grow and different ways of spending money affect how they grow.

Giving money to the Government vs. using money could be measured in marginal utility. Weighing the MU of one more shell in the US government military vs. the MU of one more meal for someone who wasn’t taxed (I don’t know about the shell vs. meal ratio, just an example) depends on what the government will be doing with that shell. If it’s for training practice and ends up not improving the over all defense of the State then the MU is very low. If that meal is used to feed a family at the poverty level, then the MU is comparatively high. As a result, the meal is more useful in both the short term and long term(keep people alive is a good thing) than the shell.

Now on the other hand, if we are measuring the MU of a CD to add to your 1000+ collection, or the MU of several food stamps produced from the government, the result is the other way.

I think this is more of a case by case scenario rather than all or nothing.

In the present there is. I could also make the case that, while the money supply can expand rapidly, the goods and services represented by that supply do not.

The Scandinavian countries have a lot of government taxing and spending, and I hadn’t read they were total hell holes to live in.

Money supply can expand as rapidly as the gov’t can print, but that doesn’t translate into wealth. The earlier statement about money not being finite was exactly right, but only in the sense that money represents the actual “wealth” in the system-- ie, the goods and services being created.

We could all sit on our asses all day long, have the gov’t print tons of money, and the economy would be terrible. It’s only when the amount of money printed is (roughly) equal to the goods and services created that the money accurately reflects the wealth of the economy.

That’s exactly what I was pointing out. And the amount of goods and services available at any one time is a fixed number. It can expand or contract in future according to certain factors, but at this precise moment it is a quantifiable figure.

Why can’t the goods and services grow? If you look at the US circa 1900 and the US circa 2000, it’s pretty clear than the net sum of goods and services has been drastically increased.

I never said they don’t expand. I simply was making the point that their rate of growth isn’t anywhere near the ability of the government to print money. It grows, but the rate of growth is effectively in months at the smallest real level. Large growth is in years.

Yes, but I don’t see why your even relating those two things. They have nothing to do with each other. The OP asked whether taxation affected economic growth and whether it’s on a scale of months or years is irrelevant.

IANAE either, but I’'ll throw in my 2 cents.

I’ll start with the closing question in the OP. Here’s how it retards growth. Let’s say I make widgets and I can turn a profit of $100,000 yearly if I work a 40 hour week. If the government taxes me I have less of an incentive to work. If they tax me too much so everyone can have lots of benefits, I shut down the factory -people lose jobs, the economy suffers-and I take an easy job working for the government and have pretty much the same standard of living I would have had for all the aggravation of keeping the widget shop running. If however, the government taxes me hardly at all, I may choose to work 60 hours a week and retire in 20 years. More jobs, better economy.

In terms of the correlation, I’m surprised that no one has found the correct link yet. I can cite some examples, starting with North Korea. No fair to leave them out of the experiment. And while we’re at it let’s look at other state dominated economies like the USSR and Cuba. OTOH, we have smaller government countries like Singapore and Hong Kong which are extremely prosperous. Lots of countries have conducted what social scientists call ABAB design experiments, where they go back and forth between the two models. Sweden, Argentina and New Zealand -and perhaps Ireland- stand out in my memory. All three showed prosperity during times of smaller government and decline during times of larger government.

Finally Europe and Canada have had bigger government than the US for the last 25 years and rates of growth have been much slower. As for Sweden it may not be a “hell hole” but if it were a state in the US it would have something like the 45th highest per capita income. Or to put it another way, the average African American in the US does as well as the average Swede.

And a possible link is at Freetheworld.com.

I just checked freetheworld.com. It looks like if you scroll down to the second link it takes you to an Adobe doc where you’ll get a lot of relevant data. I just don’t have the time to read and analyze now.

Cite? For any of this?

Here’s some relevant data I found at Nationmaster (citing the World Bank as their source):
Average GDP growth, 1975-2000, OECD nations

  1. Korea, South 6.2%
  2. Ireland 4.0%
  3. Luxembourg 3.9%
  4. Portugal 2.9%
  5. Japan 2.7%
  6. Norway 2.6%
  7. Spain 2.2%
  8. Turkey 2.1%
  9. Italy 2.1%
  10. United Kingdom 2.0%
  11. United States 2.0%
  12. Austria 2.0%
  13. Finland 2.0%
  14. Belgium 1.9%
  15. Germany 1.9%
  16. Australia 1.9%
  17. Netherlands 1.8%
  18. Iceland 1.7%
  19. France 1.7%
  20. Denmark 1.6%
  21. Canada 1.5%
  22. Sweden 1.4%
  23. Switzerland 1.0%
  24. Mexico 0.9%
  25. Hungary 0.9%
    cite

As you can see, the US is solidly in the middle of the pack, trailing such paragons of laissez-faire economics as Norway and Italy. Your snipe at Sweden also fails to take into account the distribution of wealth. Looking at means isn’t particularly relevant to your average person on the street. Find some median income levels, or comparisons by percentile, then we can talk.

Playing around some more on Nationmaster, looking at some wealth distribution numbers (all apparently from the World Bank as well), I get these figures:
Mean income of poorest 10% of population
Sweden $8972
US $5959
Norway $12120
Mean income of poorest 20% of population
Sweden $11640
US $8608
Norway 14338
Mean income of richest 20% of population
Sweden $41831
US $76810
Norway $52917
Mean income of richest 10% of population
Sweden $48742
US $100979
Norway $64447

I guess this isn’t actually mean income so much as mean share of per capita GDP in those brackets. I did this by multiplying per capita GDP by the bracket’s share of income, and of course average worker salaries are much higher than per capita GDP, since the work force is much less than the total population. Anyways, as you can see, Sweden has a radically flatter distribution curve than the US, and probably a pretty similar median income. It looks like Sweden is a much nicer place than the US for the lower income levels - it looks like Swedes in roughly the bottom 30-40 percentiles have higher income levels than their American counterparts. And while Sweden’s average economic growth rate is rather lower than that of the US, Norway’s, with a wealth distribution curve very similar to that of the US, has a rather higher growth rate than that of the US, which may be related to North Sea oil, but still (what the heck, I’ll calculate the above categories for Norway too). The major European economies which you claim have been growing “much slower” than the US are actually all basically on par with it, between 1.9% and 2.1% for Germany, UK, and Italy, and France as a bit of an outlier waaaaay down at 1.7%. Frankly, I don’t see much correlation between economic growth over the past 25 years on that chart and taxation levels at all. The biggest correlation is between high growth and being poorer in 1975. (see S Korea, Ireland, Portugal, and to an extent Japan and Turkey, though Mexico screws me up here)