Can red and gray squirrels interbreed?

[elfkin477]

I've spent most of my life living in wooded areas, so I can tell the difference between a red squirrel and a gray one at a glance... until this week.

Something has come to eat seeds, and I'm not sure what it is. Well, it's clearly a squirrel, but he doesn't look like either kind. He'd be big for a red or small for a gray, and he is in fact red and gray. The majority of his fur is gray, except along the haunches and the back of his head which are both the rusty red of a red squirrel. He's not as stocky as a gray, but lacks the pointier ears of a red...

Is it possible that he's not a red or gray squirrel, but both? I wasn't able to find anything online about any other type of Squirrel in New Hampshire except a flying squirrel which sounds quite small (couldn't find any pics or descriptions beyond "chipmunk sized, big eyes" and this fellow doesn't have big eyes), but I suppose it's possible he's neither type instead. Or maybe he's a young gray that's gotten into some rust Any theories?

[Colibri]

It's pretty unlikely that it's a hybrid, since Red and Gray Squirrels belong to different genera; that is, they're not that closely related. The only kinds of squirrels that should be in your area are Red, Eastern Gray, and Northern Flying Squirrels. It's definitely not a Flying Squirrel, as they are entirely nocturnal.

My best guess is that it's a young Gray Squirrel with some rusty color on it. There is a small possibility that it could be a stray Fox Squirrel, which as the name implies has some rusty color, but it would be out of its range, and in any case is much larger than even a Gray Squirrel.

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Colibri

The only kinds of squirrels that should be in your area are Red, Eastern Gray, and Northern Flying Squirrels.

[nitpick]

That's changing as Black Squirrels spread.
They're found in widely scattered states now, incuding New Hampshire:

We have Black Squirrels here in Hampton Falls New Hampshire.

[/nitpick]

[StarvingButStrong]

We've seen what looks like a 'mixed' squirrel at our birdfeeder, too. Just as the op describes: intermediate size, mostly gray with some reddish fur. We'd assumed they were a cross, but if that's not possible....<shrug>

BTW, definitely not a youngling: we've been visited by this squirrel, or his identical twin, from last summer all the way through fall, and we've seen him this spring. Still intermediate sized.


MUTANT SQUIRRELS?

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Squink

[nitpick]

That's changing as Black Squirrels spread.

[further nitpick] Yeah, but those black squirrels are just Eastern Gray Squirrels that are black.

[Tamerlane]

Fox Squirrels are also very widely introduced into suburban areas. They are the common ( very common ) squirrel in my area ( though Eastern Greys predominate in GG Park ), though it is well out of their range:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...6787pSnAxWsWbr

- Tamerlane

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Squink

[nitpick]

That's changing as Black Squirrels spread.
They're found in widely scattered states now, incuding New Hampshire:

[/nitpick]

As Captain Amazing has already pointed out, those are not a separate species, but just a melanistic phase of the ordinary Eastern Gray Squirrel Sciurus carolinensis. This phase is quite common in some urban areas, including New York. A number of other localized color phases also occur, including a white-tailed variant that occurs in my brother's neighborhood in Schenectady.

Originally Posted by Starving But Strong

We've seen what looks like a 'mixed' squirrel at our birdfeeder, too. Just as the op describes: intermediate size, mostly gray with some reddish fur. We'd assumed they were a cross, but if that's not possible....<shrug>

BTW, definitely not a youngling: we've been visited by this squirrel, or his identical twin, from last summer all the way through fall, and we've seen him this spring. Still intermediate sized.

MUTANT SQUIRRELS?

Where are you? There are other species of tree squirrels elsewhere in the US.

I didn't say a hybrid is impossible, just pretty unlikely given the fact that Red and Gray Squirrels are not that closely related. Without seeing a photo, I'm pretty much guessing on what it might be.

[Squink]

Originally Posted by colibri

As Captain Amazing has already pointed out, those are not a separate species, but just a melanistic phase of the ordinary Eastern Gray Squirrel Sciurus carolinensis.

Right. I looked that up after he mentioned it.
I read a few years back about black squirrels imported from Germany in the 18-1900's and just assumed these were the same thing. The German black's can't be carolinensis, can they?

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Squink

I read a few years back about black squirrels imported from Germany in the 18-1900's and just assumed these were the same thing. The German black's can't be carolinensis, can they?

The only kind of tree squirrel native to Germany is the Eurasian Red Squirrel Sciurus vulgaris (not related to the American Red Squirrel, which is in the genus Tamiasciurus). This squirrel also has a black phase, so perhaps that is what was introduced. However, AFAIK S. vulgaris has never become established in the US, so these presumably died out.

In contrast, Eastern Gray Squirrels have been introduced to Great Britain, where they have replaced the native S. vulgaris in many areas.

[StarvingButStrong]

Originally Posted by Colibri

Where are you? There are other species of tree squirrels elsewhere in the US.

Vermont, not far from the Mass border.

I didn't say a hybrid is impossible, just pretty unlikely given the fact that Red and Gray Squirrels are not that closely related. Without seeing a photo, I'm pretty much guessing on what it might be.

Well, I've tried to take pictures of him, but the only times he's been really close is during winter when he drapes himself upside down along our hanging birdfeeder. And being winter, I'm inside, watching through a storm door/screendoor combo with a crappy camera, so the pictures = brown blob. If I ever manage one with detail, I'll post it.

[Zoe]

These white squirrels are found about nine miles from where I grew up, but never came close to our home. They just stayed in one town called Kenton, Tennessee. I think they are in a few other places in the United States. Is this anything like what you saw?

[zweisamkeit]

Okay, if they can't interbreed, then how come my family has seen:

- Black body with a bright orangy brown tail (solid black body with the entire tail being orange-brown)
- A "half and half" squirrel, where the front half of the body was black and the back half of it was like the fox squirrel (solid coloring on both halves)

Granted, we're not seeing these every day, but often enough. The common squirrels here are brown, black and grey (and they're all over the place; I think they're cute ).

But so how could those variations be, if they don't interbreed? I mean, I'm not talking about little specks of color on the haunches, but huge blocks of different colors like that.

[Oregon sunshine]

I installed carpets for a living in the late 1980s in Columbus, Ohio. The big subsidized housing project where I was subcontracted to work had a large number of pure white squirrels living there. It was the only place I've ever seen them.

[Oregon sunshine]

Um, I mean the squirrels lived on the grounds of the housing project, not actually in the housing project.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by zweisamkeit

But so how could those variations be, if they don't interbreed? I mean, I'm not talking about little specks of color on the haunches, but huge blocks of different colors like that.

Because several squirrel species, the common Eastern Grey, Fox, and Eurasian Red Squirrel in particular, can be pretty variable in their coloration. Fro example these are the more common morph of Fox Squirrels that you'd see in my area:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...6849qRklPpBjwj
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...45357750aQksgx

But here's a fellow with a black face:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...32358901pINTyz

It's really not that strikingly unusual in mammals - witness the many varieties of fox pelts, especially the striking "cross fox" which often leqaves people puzzled, thinking they saw some weird hybrid.

- Tamerlane

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by Colibri

I didn't say a hybrid is impossible, just pretty unlikely given the fact that Red and Gray Squirrels are not that closely related. Without seeing a photo, I'm pretty much guessing on what it might be.

What is it with squirrels being camera shy? I got a few shots of the bird I mentioned in this thread (haven't checked them yet to see if they came out, however) but by the time I got my camera the squirrel was gone. If I get pictures of him I'll put them both on a web page, since I have no idea what the bird is, either. Someone at work suggested an evening grosbeak, but it doesn't look like the pictures I've seen.

[rfgdxm]

Interesting. I've seen black squirrels in the Lansing, MI area. On a quick Google search:

http://www.reedsburg.com/blacksquirrel.htm

"According to a recent article in The Detroit News, the Detroit & Lansing, MI areas, along with Princeton, N.J., Galesburg, IL and New Hartford, CT are the only five places in the U.S. with a predominate population of black furred squirrels, and of course, Reedsburg, WI!"

I live in one of the few areas where black squirrels are common.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by elfkin477

I got a few shots of the bird I mentioned in this thread (haven't checked them yet to see if they came out, however) but by the time I got my camera the squirrel was gone. If I get pictures of him I'll put them both on a web page, since I have no idea what the bird is, either. Someone at work suggested an evening grosbeak, but it doesn't look like the pictures I've seen.

(newest visitor: what bird is the size of a cardinal - but plumper and uncrested- has a black head/wings/back, white underside and a vivid red spot about the size of a quarter on his chest? hmm)

Sounds very much like a Rose-breasted Grosbeak

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by Colibri

Sounds very much like a Rose-breasted Grosbeak

That's it Damn, you're good.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by elfkin477

That's it Damn, you're good.

It's my job.

[Jessie M]

A squirrel fitting the description of previous posts from New Hampshire has turned up under my bird feeder here in western Massachusetts. It's small for a grey and large for a red; mostly grey with a rusty back. I took some pictures through a hazy window, one with a redpoll in the frame to establish its size. Has anyone determined what this cute little beasty is?

[GusNSpot]

In NW AR, the reds average bigger than the greys. ::: shrug :::

[Mangetout]

It's not uncommon for grey squirrels just to have a bit of brownish-redness to them - if you just do a Google image search for 'grey squirrel', some examples are very grey, others are distinctly brownish.

[bienville]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

It's not uncommon for grey squirrels just to have a bit of brownish-redness to them

In fact, the very first photo in the "description" section of the Eastern gray squirrel Wiki page shows a gray squirrel that is actually reddish brown in color.

Originally Posted by Wiki

As the name suggests, the eastern gray squirrel has predominantly gray fur, but it can have a brownish color.

[Civila191]

Originally Posted by Colibri

It's pretty unlikely that it's a hybrid, since Red and Gray Squirrels belong to different genera; that is, they're not that closely related. The only kinds of squirrels that should be in your area are Red, Eastern Gray, and Northern Flying Squirrels. It's definitely not a Flying Squirrel, as they are entirely nocturnal.

My best guess is that it's a young Gray Squirrel with some rusty color on it. There is a small possibility that it could be a stray Fox Squirrel, which as the name implies has some rusty color, but it would be out of its range, and in any case is much larger than even a Gray Squirrel.

Here's an observation today at 10AM Eastern. March 4th I have a group of 3 fat grey squirrels that raid my (Anti squirrel) bird feeder daily. I observe a single little red squirrel daily. After they left -
This morning followed along the weirdest threesome I have ever seen. A little red squirrel sized - grey squirrel - with some red shading. Two strange companions. A full sized grey squirrel with bright red ears (and red fur surrounding its eyes). The third was a small red.

[TriPolar]

I've seen occasional red, black, and white squirrels in the Northeast from Maryland to Massachusetts. Only one red looked like it was entirely red, and I've long wondered if it was actually some other animal (defintely not a chipmonk). The largest squirrels I've ever seen were in Toronto, living in an a hotel atrium. Perhaps they were well fed, they seemed to be nearly a foot tall sitting up, but probably less than that, just unusually large compared to the typical scrawny squirrel I've seen.

[Bryan Ekers]

Exotic is in the eye of the beholder

[Bones Daley]

I am amazed by the *apparent* ability of the red and grey squirrels to ce-exist peacefully in the US ...( based on the admittedly anecdotal evidence in this thread) .

Over here in Scotland, it is definitely not the case...our native red squirrel has been practically decimated by advent of the more robust grey ( a non native species imported from the US by our ill advised Victorian ancestors).

There is a distinct possibility that the red may become extinct in the UK in our lifetime ...

[sjc]

Originally Posted by Bones Daley

I am amazed by the *apparent* ability of the red and grey squirrels to ce-exist peacefully in the US ...( based on the admittedly anecdotal evidence in this thread) .

Over here in Scotland, it is definitely not the case...our native red squirrel has been practically decimated by advent of the more robust grey ( a non native species imported from the US by our ill advised Victorian ancestors).

There is a distinct possibility that the red may become extinct in the UK in our lifetime ...

I wouldn't say peacefully...

I'm no expert, but I'm under the impression that the Grey Squirrel is muscling out the Red in the United States too. Perhaps not as quickly or effectively, but still I've heard of it as a problem.

[Bryan Ekers]

Saw a white squirrel in Montreal for the first time last year. Snapped a photo with my cellphone.

Just saying.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Bones Daley

I am amazed by the *apparent* ability of the red and grey squirrels to ce-exist peacefully in the US ...( based on the admittedly anecdotal evidence in this thread) .

Over here in Scotland, it is definitely not the case...our native red squirrel has been practically decimated by advent of the more robust grey ( a non native species imported from the US by our ill advised Victorian ancestors).

There is a distinct possibility that the red may become extinct in the UK in our lifetime ...

As I mentioned above seven years ago, the American Red Squirrel belongs to a different genus (Tamiasciurus) than the Eastern Gray Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis). They are specialists on pine seeds and don't compete directly with the Gray Squirrels.

The Eurasian Red Squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris) is an entirely different species and belongs to the same genus as the Gray Squirrel. The two species compete much more directly than American Red and Gray Squirrels.

[monavis]

We have red, black,and grey squirrels by us and I have seen them breed so I would say they can have mixed breeds,The truly red squirrel are very much more red than the grey and red mix. There is ine squirrlel that is too dark to just be a grey squirrel and not as dark as the black one.