Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-28-2005, 01:16 AM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 7th Level of Hell, Ca
Posts: 16,298
Peeing in the back yard to scare off coyotes

My wife wants me to pee in the backyard. She says it will scare off coyotes so that they won't get the cats. It sounds a little suspicious to me.

Anyone know for sure?
  #2  
Old 05-28-2005, 02:25 AM
justwannano justwannano is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: S.E.Iowa USA
Posts: 2,773
Dunno about coyotes but I've heard it works for rabbits and deer.
As a side note Its common knowlege that wild critters pee to mark their territory.
So why wouldn't it work? And if it doesn't work is that critter challenging you? Time to get out the 30/06 and let Wiley know whose boss?
Another note
Ted Nugent claims to have peed around a fresh kill in Africa and left the dead animal over night without african critters of the night bothering his kill.
  #3  
Old 05-28-2005, 02:37 AM
NurseCarmen NurseCarmen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Zen Arcade
Posts: 8,288
Pee on your door handles. Then your wife won't let your cats outside.

Coyotes are extremely adaptable. They've reached the point where they ignore human scents in the areas they have moved into.
  #4  
Old 05-28-2005, 03:50 AM
groman groman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,514
Not to hijack, but would coyotes really get your cats? I wouldn't think that anything would go after cats as food unless it was utterly starving... I've definitely never heard of a dog eating a cat, and I'd imagine dogs are a lot less picky than coyotes... I mean... it's cats... I can't put it into words, but something about cats just seems inedible...
  #5  
Old 05-28-2005, 04:14 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Welll... in the wild, wild animals tend to avoid "marked" areas. "Tend".

Yes, coyotes will eat a domestic cat. Not their first choice mind you- in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores*. But the urban coyote is a strange beastie indeed.

* Which is why, in general- land carnivores don't prey on humans. Oddly, and backing this up- many Puma attacks (when they attack with intent to eat) seem to be on vegetarian dudes. By "prey" I mean "hunt with intent to eat". Territorial "disputes', or mothers being protective of their young, or getting between them and what they really want to eat- then you're fair game. This could perhaps be happening with cats or small dogs who try and "protect" their outside food bowl from a coyote.

Of course, the best way to protect your cats from coyotes- is to not let the cats outside in the1st place. Few coyotes can pick locks.

And, "indoor only" cats outlive "indoor/outdoor" cats by a factor of at least 2-1.
  #6  
Old 05-28-2005, 04:51 AM
Blake Blake is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores*.

Would you have a reference for that? I can think of any number of exceptions. Indeed I canít think of any land carnivores that [/I]donít[i] routinely prey on other land carnivores. Leopards routinely prey on baboons, cheetahs routinely prey on jackals, jaguars routinely prey on opossums.

Quote:
many Puma attacks (when they attack with intent to eat) seem to be on vegetarian dudes.

Iíve heard this before, but once again Iíd have to see a reference to credit it as more than an urban myth. Given that puma attacks are perishingly rare, and given that a reasonable portion of the population is vegetarian is there one scintilla of evidence that vegetarians are overrepresented as victims?

And if they are, given that I suspect that vegetarians are overrepresented in unarmed Sierra Club type people who routinely traverse the wilds are they really overrepresented to any significant level?
  #7  
Old 05-28-2005, 05:31 AM
DougC DougC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: IL, USA
Posts: 5,209
Quote:
... Welll... in the wild, wild animals tend to avoid "marked" areas. "Tend"....
- - - Yes, but only areas that have been marked by the same species of animals. Generally speaking, the whole thing with "human-peeing to drive off [some animal]" be it moles or coyotes or whatever doesn't work, because of the fact that such animals can plainly smell the difference between their own species' urine and anything else--and they ignore anything else.
~
  #8  
Old 05-28-2005, 08:29 AM
zagloba zagloba is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Soplicowo
Posts: 2,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
My wife wants me to pee in the backyard.
Maybe you just need to lift the seat and aim better?
  #9  
Old 05-28-2005, 09:35 AM
John Carter of Mars John Carter of Mars is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Alabama, USA
Posts: 4,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
My wife wants me to pee in the backyard. She says it will scare off coyotes...
Dude! How big is your dick?

Ahem: Cats are difficult prey. For example, they can climb trees, fences and things that coyotes cannot. We live way back in the woods and coyotes are plentiful here. We have one cat that's 18 years old and another that's about seven. These cats stay outside all the time and they've avoided death by coyote so far.
While I do pee in the yard with some frequency, these cats range much farther than the yard so I doubt that the "pee in the yard" thingy has anything to do with it. It sure doesn't discourage armadillos and 'possums from foraging in the yard.

But hey! It's a simple request, so I'd comply. How often do you get a chance to pee in the yard and please the Lady of the House with one simple act? Years pass, cats continue to thrive, you get brownie points. Win/win deal!

Cowboy philosopher:
"There ain't no pleasin' a woman. A man can stand on the porch and piss into the yard and she'll gripe.
Go stand in the yard and piss up on the porch, she still gripes!"
  #10  
Old 05-28-2005, 09:37 AM
enipla enipla is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 11,572
Our 2 cats are indoor cats now. We think we lost a former cat to a fox.

We had a labrador at the time.

A doubt a coyote living near people is gonna care about your pee if a fox doesn't care about a large dogs pee.

But it is fun to pee in the yard.

Only solution is to be outside with them. Or to keep the cat inside.
  #11  
Old 05-28-2005, 10:56 AM
squeegee squeegee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Gilroy CA
Posts: 8,557
I've peed in the yard to ward off heffalumps and woozles.

Haven't seen one yet.
  #12  
Old 05-28-2005, 11:06 AM
NurseCarmen NurseCarmen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Zen Arcade
Posts: 8,288
A pal o mine works for the Department of Natural Resources here in Saint Paul. He says you can tell when Coyotes have moved up the river bottom, because the neighborhoods surrounding mine have missing cat signs popping up all over.

Then ther's the dog fighters and the future serial killers. I suppose they could be mistaken for coyotes.
  #13  
Old 05-28-2005, 12:05 PM
SnakesCatLady SnakesCatLady is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Columbus, Georgia
Posts: 6,934
The coyotes here will kill cats and dogs and have been known to chase horses.

I'd keep the cats inside, especially at night.
  #14  
Old 05-28-2005, 01:44 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougC
- - - Yes, but only areas that have been marked by the same species of animals. Generally speaking, the whole thing with "human-peeing to drive off [some animal]" be it moles or coyotes or whatever doesn't work, because of the fact that such animals can plainly smell the difference between their own species' urine and anything else--and they ignore anything else.
~
Not nessesarily. After all, predators don't like to run into other predators in the same niche. Wolves will avoid a human "marked" area. Not that they won't cross the line if they need to...

Blake Baboons are omnivores, so are opossums, in fact, 'possums eat a lot of fruit. I have never heard of cheetahs 'routinely" preying on jackals. Killing them to keep them off a kill, sure, but Cheetahs hunt gazelle & such. Lions charge and scare off jackals and Hyena's around their prey, for example, but they never seem to hunt with intent to eat. Pumas don't hunt wolves, nor do bear hunt either.
  #15  
Old 05-28-2005, 02:40 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 24,534
Your wife is just tired of cleaning the bathroom. Hire a cleaning lady to come in every couple weeks and you can pee wherever you want!
  #16  
Old 05-28-2005, 03:34 PM
KlondikeGeoff KlondikeGeoff is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: High Sonoran Desert
Posts: 3,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
My wife wants me to pee in the backyard. She says it will scare off coyotes so that they won't get the cats. It sounds a little suspicious to me.

Anyone know for sure?
Whether this would work with coyotes is not the point, as there a LOT of other predators in Calif, as here in AZ, that will gladly have your cats for lunch. Such as mountain lions, bobcats, feral dogs, owls, hawks, etc. Even danger from rattlers.

If you want to let you cats live to ripe old age, keep 'em inside!
  #17  
Old 05-28-2005, 06:35 PM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 7th Level of Hell, Ca
Posts: 16,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlondikeGeoff
Whether this would work with coyotes is not the point, as there a LOT of other predators in Calif, as here in AZ, that will gladly have your cats for lunch. Such as mountain lions, bobcats, feral dogs, owls, hawks, etc. Even danger from rattlers.

[/B]
We've got a cat door. And the Mrs. wants them to come and go as they please. Coyotes are really the only predator to worry about in this area (suburban Los Angeles). We're far enough from the hills so we don't see a lot of them. But they will come down occasionally.
  #18  
Old 05-28-2005, 07:38 PM
ltfire ltfire is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: E 161 St. and River Ave.
Posts: 1,765
Iíve got a bottle of coyote urine right in front of me. It is sold in hunting equipment stores. I donít remember what the hell I bought it for, but back in my hunting days, I used to buy anything that was advertised to draw in deer. Anyway, the story on the bottle says that it is to be used two ways: As a coyote lure, to create the illusion that there are coyotes nearby..if you are hunting coyotes, and two, as a deer repellant, to flush deer out of an area while you wait down wind. I donít remember it ever worked for me, but I will say it stinks something awful.
  #19  
Old 05-28-2005, 07:44 PM
scr4 scr4 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Alabama
Posts: 13,941
Even if you manage to keep the coyotes out of your own backyard, how would you confine the cats to your backyard?
  #20  
Old 05-28-2005, 08:59 PM
kanicbird kanicbird is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 18,400
Quote:
And, "indoor only" cats outlive "indoor/outdoor" cats by a factor of at least 2-1.
While I agree with what you said I think a I/O cat is about 2x happier then a indoor only cat.
  #21  
Old 05-28-2005, 11:34 PM
Blake Blake is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,049
Quote:
=Dr Deth]Blake Baboons are omnivores, so are opossums, in fact, 'possums eat a lot of fruit.
Bears eat a lot of fruit too, yet you consider them carnivores. What's your definition of carnivore here?

The obvious proeelm is that there are species of opossum that are far more carnivorous than most bears, yet are still preyed upon routinely by jaguars.

Quote:
I have never heard of cheetahs 'routinely" preying on jackals. Killing them to keep them off a kill, sure, but Cheetahs hunt gazelle & such. Lions charge and scare off jackals and Hyena's around their prey, for example, but they never seem to hunt with intent to eat. Pumas don't hunt wolves, nor do bear hunt either.
Iíll ask again, do you have anything at all to support these apparently wildly inaccurate claims?

"Side-striped jackals are prey to leopards, hyenas and eagles."
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed...s_adustus.html

ďJuvenile bobcats are preyed upon by coyotes (Canis latrans)ÖĒ
https://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/carniv...%20History.htm

ďThe kit foxes are preyed on in turn by coyotes and recently introduced red foxes.Ē
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smi...g01/foxes.html

ďLong-tailed weasels are prey for a number of predators. Their primary predators are red fox (Vulpes vulpes) and gray fox (Urocyon cinereoargenteus). Other predators are ... coyotes (Canis latrans), martens (Martes americana), bobcats (Lynx rufus),... domestic cats (Felis cattus) and dogs (Canis lupus familiaris).Ē
http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=110

Cheetahs do indeed hunt gazelle, they also hunt jackals and foxes routinely. Lions will eat jackals if they can get them, they also routinely eat meerkats if they can get them. Your idea that carnivores donít hunt carnivores is simply dead wrong.

I notice you donít even attempt to address the urban myth that pumas are more likely to attack vegetarians.

I assume all this is just your way of admitting that you can't provide anything like a reference and this idea that carnivores donít routinely hunt carnivores is something you made up out of whole cloth.

This is GQ man. Try to be a bit more factual with your replies.
  #22  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:31 AM
cantara cantara is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Ontari-ari-ari-o
Posts: 1,031
To echo scr4...I can't stop our cats from getting into our closet and shedding on my black pants, I don't think I could stop them from leaving the back yard...

Our neighbours recently lost 2 cats within a couple of weeks of one another to (we think) coyotes. We spotted a coyote in the neighbourhood a couple of years ago. They had moved in about 6 months earlier from Toronto to the suburbs and she wanted to let the cats roam using a cat door they installed. A guy from down the block found the collars and remains in a matted down area of long grass in a 'natural' area nearby.
  #23  
Old 05-30-2005, 01:18 PM
Bookkeeper Bookkeeper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ottawa, Canuckistan
Posts: 2,595
According to actual field studies of Canadian mammals (which I presume are of general application to the US as well), almost all of them eat whatever they can get, regardless of their official classification in regards to diet. The only exceptions noted were groundhogs (only observed eating a herbivorous diet) and polar bears (only observed eating a carnivorous diet). I have observed ostensibly herbivorous chipmunks happily munching away on grasshoppers and caterpillars which they were lucky enough to catch.

While I donít doubt that a coyote would prefer rabbit to cat, I also doubt that many would pass up a cat here and now for a hypothetical future rabbit. I havenít seen or heard of coyotes inside the city here, but I have seen hawks, foxes, raccoons, and skunks, as well as dogs and other cats, as predators in our neighbourhood, and we keep all of our cats indoors.
  #24  
Old 05-30-2005, 02:20 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Sure, once in a while many creatures eat others. I can give you several excellent examples of Tigers or Lions becoming Man eaters, and even Humans eating other humans. But even we don't eat (land) carnivores on a regular basis. In fact, when we do (such as some asians eating dog), there is a high "eewww' factor among the other human "tribes".

Common prey of the Wolf= "The most common wolf prey are white-tailed and mule deer, moose, caribou, elk, Dall and bighorn sheep, and beaver, although in selected areas wolves also take on bison and musk-ox." (no carnivores)
http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/Diver...s/graywolf.htm

Common Prey of the Puma= "the puma is big enough to tackle larger prey such as domestic cattle and horses, for which it has earnt a bad reputation with livestock farmers, as well as wild deer, sheep, rodents, rabbits, hare and beaver." (no carnivores)
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/puma.htm

Common prey of the Lion= " Lions will eat pretty much any mammal they come across, but the majority of a lionís diet comes from medium- to large-sized herbivorous mammals. The most common prey are:
* Buffalo
* Zebra
* Wildebeest
* Gemsbok
* Hartebeest
* Warthog
* Kob
* Impala
* Gazelle (Viljoen 2003)" Again, note no carnivores, and jackals aren't listed.
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/v...urne/prey.html

Common prey of the Cheetah: "Although cheetahs usually prey on the smaller antelopes such as Thomson's gazelles and impalas, they can catch wildebeests and zebras if hunting together. They also hunt hares and other small mammals and birds." Again, note- no carnivores listed- nor any jackals or foxes.
http://www.awf.org/wildlives/65


I am not saying that on occasion a carnivore won't snack upon another carnivore a bit lower in the food chain. But- in general they don't. Carnivores just plain are not listed as 'common prey" of other (land) carnivores. (The Polar bear is an odd exception, but it mostly eats seagoing creatures, and the artic is a very unusual environment).
  #25  
Old 05-30-2005, 03:11 PM
GusNSpot GusNSpot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N/W Arkansas
Posts: 8,142
Back to the OP a bit sorta.
I found that "pee" can be used to discourage critters from coming back if used along with other things.

Or maybe it is just because I'm scary lookin.....
  #26  
Old 05-30-2005, 05:20 PM
kniz kniz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pratts, Mississippi
Posts: 6,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougC
- - - Yes, but only areas that have been marked by the same species of animals. Generally speaking, the whole thing with "human-peeing to drive off [some animal]" be it moles or coyotes or whatever doesn't work, because of the fact that such animals can plainly smell the difference between their own species' urine and anything else--and they ignore anything else.
~
There is a famous story about a man that went into the woods to study wolves. He set up camp and had problems with the wolves coming too near his camp. As part of his study involved how they marked their territory, he decided to try marking his territory (just around the camp). It worked. His name wasn't Thomas Wolfe.
  #27  
Old 05-30-2005, 06:09 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by kniz
There is a famous story about a man that went into the woods to study wolves. He set up camp and had problems with the wolves coming too near his camp. As part of his study involved how they marked their territory, he decided to try marking his territory (just around the camp). It worked. His name wasn't Thomas Wolfe.
"Never Cry Wolf" by Farley Mowat
  #28  
Old 05-30-2005, 08:15 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 50,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
We've got a cat door.

Nail up the cat door and keep Fluffy inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanicbird
While I agree with what you said I think a I/O cat is about 2x happier then a indoor only cat.

How so? Cats are happy as long as they have food, something to play with, warmth and attention. My cats get all of that, and they're safe. Not one of them has ever even tried to get outside, and we have six furballs. They're well-fed, they have the run of the house, they've got beds and toys and space galore. I challenge ANYONE to say they could be any happier.
  #29  
Old 05-30-2005, 08:44 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
Not their first choice mind you- in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores*.
Are you saying that the preferred prey of a typical carnivore is herbivores (a.k.a., "prey animals")? That might typically be true of large mammalian carnivores.

On the other hand, if you're saying that it's rare, or even uncommon, for carnivorous mammals and birds to eat other carnivores, I can bury you under a pile of conflicting evidence. You used wolves in your example. Yes, they tend to hunt whatever their mothers taught them to hunt when they were pups. They will eat whatever they have an opportunity to eat, especially if prey is scarce. Wolves regularly kill coyotes, although they only eat them if they're quite hungry.

Great horned owls regularly eat weasels, snakes, and other species of owls. I also lost a kitten to an owl.

Foxes, bobcats, and coyotes eat domestic cats around here whenever they can catch one (which is why my cats come indoors at night). Bobcats and grey foxes can even go up a tree after the domestic cat.

Numerous species of snakes eat other snakes, and many snakes live almost exclusively on frogs and toads (which are insectivores).
__________________
---
Yes, I have joined the ranks of former moderators. Being a mod was eating my life. Now I'm a member just like you. Except smarter and better looking.
  #30  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:39 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
Are you saying that the preferred prey of a typical carnivore is herbivores (a.k.a., "prey animals")? That might typically be true of large mammalian carnivores.
Wolves regularly kill coyotes, although they only eat them if they're quite hungry.
(which are insectivores).
Yes. Most land mammal carnivores prefer (if you prefer that word) to eat herbivores. They are the "common" prey.

It isn't uncommon for carnivores higher up the food chain to occasionally kill or attack a carnivore lower down the chain, especially if they view them as any sort of threat or competition. But as you said- they don't often/always eat them.

My whole point is that Coyotes in the wild would prefer to eat rodents, not cats. BUT- when you're starving, preferences go out the window; and urban coyotes don't act like their wild brethren, either.
  #31  
Old 05-31-2005, 12:46 AM
Blake Blake is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
But even we don't eat (land) carnivores on a regular basis. In fact, when we do (such as some asians eating dog), there is a high "eewww' factor among the other human "tribes".
Cite please.

What absolute nonsense. ďWeĒ as in the human species have always routinely eaten carnivores. That was made more difficult and expensive as game meat became less common and may have led to a change in dietary perceptions but even now the consumption of carnivores is perfectly normal in almost any society where game meat consumption ois routine and where consumption of carnovores isnít actually illegal. For example a significant amount of game meat consumed by various Eskimo groups still consists primarily of bear and seal. Bear is also eaten by Indians in those places where killing them is permitted. Ferchrissakes the consumption of bear flesh amongst EuropeanAmricans was perfectly normal not 200 years ago.

Yes Dr Deth, many carnivores provoke an Ďewwwí factor in those cultures that donít routinely eat them. That is just as true of herbivores. Iíve seen the reaction of unacclimatised Europeans to the eating of possums or alpaca or guinea pigs too.

And yes, you provided a lot of references to carnivores that didnít mention them eating carnivores. What you comprehensively failed to provide is any support at all to the BS claim that ďin general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivoresĒ. That comment is just out and out wrong. In general ALL land carnivores prey on other land carnivores. Of course carnivores arenít their primary food items. Basic thermodynamics ensures that could never, ever be the case. That in no way supports your BS statement that ďin general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivoresĒ. Generally and specifically they DO prey on other land carnivores.

Quote:
I am not saying that on occasion a carnivore won't snack upon another carnivore a bit lower in the food chain. But- in general they don't.

What you are saying is ignorant and incorrect. In general they do. Itís routine for almost any land carnivore to eat other land carnivores.


Quote:
Carnivores just plain are not listed as 'common prey" of other (land) carnivores.
Quote obviously either you have not given that statement any thought, or else you are ignorant of thermodynamics. For all practical purposes the sun is the only energy input into this system. Each time energy gets converted from one form to the other the majority is lost. As a result there are around 10 times fewer carnivores on any tropic level as the consumers beneath them. Funnily enough that mandates that any generalist carnivore will be at least 10 times more likely to eat primary consumers as other carnivores. If basic thermodynamics demands that 9.10 of the prey are herbivores it should hardly surprise anyone that carnivores ainít gonna be common prey. That in no way supports the contention that carnivores do indeed generally eat other carnivores.

And Der. Deth you still haven;t addressed what I assume is the urban myth you bought into, that pumas are more likely to attack vegetarians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
It isn't uncommon for carnivores higher up the food chain to occasionally kill or attack a carnivore lower down the chain, especially if they view them as any sort of threat or competition. But as you said- they don't often/always eat them.

Iíll ask for a reference for this BS claim too. Please provide evidence that wolves donít always eat weasels they catch or that coyotes donít always eat cats or that lions donít always eat jackals.

Quote:
My whole point is that Coyotes in the wild would prefer to eat rodents, not cats.

Can you provide any evidence for this claim. Iím calling bullshit. Please show me any evidence that the prefer rodents to cats, rather than simply finding them more abundant?
  #32  
Old 05-31-2005, 10:16 AM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
Yes. Most land mammal carnivores prefer (if you prefer that word) to eat herbivores.
I specifically refered to the large land mammal carnivores, and I notice you didn't address any of my examples at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
My whole point is that Coyotes in the wild would prefer to eat rodents, not cats. BUT- when you're starving, preferences go out the window; and urban coyotes don't act like their wild brethren, either.
I'm not talking about urban coyotes. A coyote can go from my house to huge tracts of government (BLM/park service) land without passing closer than 1/4 mile of another house. These are definitely "wild" animals.

Your "whole point" was based on bad information, as just about everyone else in this thread has confirmed. Carnivores (including land carnivores) eat other carnivores on a regular basis, and in some cases (e.g., the snakes I mentioned) they eat other carnivores almost exclusively.

A housecat wandering loose in the mountains near here (northeast of Yellowstone National Park) is definitely in danger of being eaten. Not just killed for territory--a wolf isn't concerned about the territorial rights of a cat--but eaten by grey and red foxes, coyotes, wolves, bobcats, cougars, bears, great horned owls, and a variety of other critters with sharp gnashy teeth.
  #33  
Old 05-31-2005, 12:19 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
I specifically refered to the large land mammal carnivores, and I notice you didn't address any of my examples at all.


Your "whole point" was based on bad information, as just about everyone else in this thread has confirmed. Carnivores (including land carnivores) eat other carnivores on a regular basis, and in some cases (e.g., the snakes I mentioned) they eat other carnivores almost exclusively.
.
We weren't talking about snakes (nor owls, nor frogs...). We were talking about Land Mammal carnivores- coyotes and such like.

Again, I have given cites for the "common prey" of several of the best known carnivores. In no case is another carnivore listed. Thus, Carnivores (land mammal) simply do not commonly prey upon other carnivores. I could give more. Carnivores simply do NOT have fellowcarnivores on their common prey list.

Blake- you claim humans eat Bear commonly, or at least they did. My Dad living in Alaska, and hunted bear for food- he said that bear during the salmon season was rancid and nearly indeible, but bear during the berry season was in high demand- which bring up my point that bears are NOT carnivores, they are omnivores. We commonly eat almost no land mammal carnivore. Pigs are omnivores also, we eat plenty of them, still. Humans have rarely raised carnivores for food animals.

You then claim that carnivores routinely eat other carnivores, then go through a line of discussion about the fatc that there are less carnivores than herbivores, and go on to admit that "ainít gonna be common prey"- which is correct- then go on to claim that "that carnivores do indeed generally eat other carnivores.". So which is it? Are they common prey or not? If they are not common prey, then they do not "generally" eat other carnivores. Thank you for helping me prove my point.

So far, all that has been shown to disporve my thesis is a few scattered instances where- occasionally, in rare & uncommon circumstances- a land carnivore will eat another. Which I have never disagreed with, in fact I stated as such in my first post. Still, I have shown- with cites- that (land mammal) carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores.

Here are more:

Siberian Tiger "Wild boar make up more than half of its diet. Common prey includes Sika deer, and elk." (no CARNIVORES)

Leopard; "The leopard is a cunning, stealthy hunter, and its prey ranges from strong-scented carrion, fish, reptiles and birds to mammals such as rodents, hares, hyraxes, warthogs, antelopes, monkeys and baboons." (no carnivores, one omnivore)

Jaguar: "The prey base of the jaguar is extensive, taking full advantage of the diversity and dense concentration of animal species found in the rainforest areas. In size its prey ranges from large domestic livestock such as cattle and horses (for which it has a poor reputation with local farmers), Marsh deer, Brocket deer, down through various species of Peccary, larger rodents such as Capybara, Paca and Agouti, to reptiles, monkeys and fish." (no carnivores, exept perhaps lizards, which would mainly be iguana, but anyway they are not "land mammals")
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/bco/jaguar.htm


Woverine: "The Wolverine is both a scavenger and a predator, depending on the time of year. During the summer months, Wolverines are primarily predatory, with the most common prey being marmots, ground squirrels, mice, voles, birds and insects. Eggs and berries also may be included in the summer diet. During the winter, Wolverines are primarily scavengers and rely heavily on large ungulates killed by other predators or that have died of disease or starvation. However, live American Porcupines, mice and voles may supplement their winter diet, and Wolverines have been known to kill Caribou and Moose if snow conditions are favorable or if the prey is weakened." No carnivores.
http://www.albertasource.ca/alphabet...?article_id=90

Bobcat: "Their most important prey are mammals, especially rabbit and hare. Other common prey include large rodents and opossum-sized animals. Bobcat also eat larger animals such as beaver and deer. They will store carcasses for later use.
Research in the late 1970s found that white-tailed deer, rabbit, and hare are the most common items in the diet of bobcat in New York."
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/d...e/bcatinny.htm

And here is a scientific article discussing the predation of the coytote- and comparing it to the other carnivores in the system (note "Grizzly bears (U. arctos) are omnivorous and consume large quantities of vegetation and wild fruits in addition to carrion and prey. ") No mention of any of the land mammal carnivores there preying on other land mammal carnivores.

Here is another quote about the coyote "The most common prey consists of squirrels, rodents, rabbits, deer and even domestic livestock. The coyote will also eat a variety of fruit and vegetable matter. The coyote is also considered to be a scavenger due to the fact that it will eat almost anything it comes across, including spoiled meat.
http://www.dto.com/hunting/species/g...p?speciesid=75


OK, I think I have covered most major land mammal carnivores, and even a few others. None list- and in some cases the list is long and extensive- any other land mammal carnivores. Land mammal carnivores simple do not commonly prey on others, and herbivores are their prefered prey.

Last edited by xash; 06-01-2005 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Fixed coding.
  #34  
Old 05-31-2005, 12:21 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
If a moderator will fix the coding on that last cite, I'd appreciate it.
  #35  
Old 05-31-2005, 01:11 PM
Excalibre Excalibre is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
If a moderator will fix the coding on that last cite, I'd appreciate it.
Your lists that do not mention carnivores are simply not evidence that will convince anyone - we all know the aphorism. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Blake's point about thermodynamics is a perfectly adequate explanation of why carnivores are generally not a common foodsource for other carnivores. They are simply less numerous, and each step up the food chain means fewer critters. This is basic high school biology - I can't imagine you wish to argue it, but if you do I (or others) would be happy to find citations. Thus it would not be a successful strategy for a coyote to strictly hunt cats - there just wouldn't be enough to sustain life. However, the fact that cat is not the primary foodstuff of coyotes does not prove, or even suggest, that coyotes are unwilling to eat them. Predation by coyotes upon housecats is common in areas where they are prevalent.

The puma claim is particularly hard to believe - though if you have evidence, I'll second the call asking you to find it.

The arguments about humans and our diets are more easily explained in other ways as well. There tends to be strong cultural resistance to eating animals that are viewed as companions of some sort (possibly borne out of an evolutionary pragmatism - what sense does it make to eat the beast you need to pull a plow or provide milk?) - thus while dogs are eaten in some cultures, others find the practice disgusting. Rather than using tortured logic about human reluctance to eat carnivores (since, after all, dogs are a delicacy in Korea), compare with an analogous situation. Many people in the United States are absolutely disgusted by the idea of eating horses, even though it's common practice in some places. This despite the fact that horses are herbivores. A more obvious conclusion is that either people are reluctant to eat animals that are not regularly eaten within their own societies, or else that people are horrified by the concept of eating something that's seen as a companion rather than as prey.

People certainly don't raise carnivores as food (and of course pigs are fed a largely vegetable diet on farms) because it's inefficient to do so, just as it would be inefficient for a coyote to embark upon a cat-only diet. Having to raise or hunt herbivores to feed to our carnivorous livestock - especially when one considers the general rule that each step up the food chain has a tenth the biomass of the previous step - would be a process so costly and difficult that it would be impossible for it to form an ordinary part of our diet.

Again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when reasons why carnivores are not a dietary mainstay have already been provided, and are matters of very basic biology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kanicbird
While I agree with what you said I think a I/O cat is about 2x happier then a indoor only cat.
Perhaps you think so, but unless you have found a way not only to read a cat's mind but also to quantify something as abstract as happiness, it certainly doesn't make any sense for you to make a ridiculous claim like this in GQ. I'm not saying it's ridiculous to suggest that cats like being outdoors - just that it's ridiculous to imply that you can precisely quantify cat emotions, and further to imply that it's a matter of fact (since we're not in IMHO.) For the record, my cats seem quite satisfied to stay inside.
  #36  
Old 05-31-2005, 01:46 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
We weren't talking about snakes (nor owls, nor frogs...). We were talking about Land Mammal carnivores- coyotes and such like.
No, we weren't. You said, in post #5, "in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores." You didn't say a word about mammals until you got buried in counterexamples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
Still, I have shown- with cites- that (land mammal) carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores.
No, you haven't. You have shown--with cites--that they do commonly prey on herbivores.

You can't prove your negative assertion ("land carnivores don't eat other land carnivores") by giving examples of carnivores eating herbivores ("see--wolves eat elk"), but we can disprove it by giving counterexamples (owls eating weasels, snakes eating frogs...). I gave you several counterexamples, and then you changed the basic premise.

Here. Let me shoot you down again using only mammals. I've quoted this material directly from www.enature.com, and much of it is taken almost verbatim from Audubon Society field guides (the URLs are long and ugly but a quick search will get you to the quotes text for full context). Names of carnivores are set in bold.

BOBCAT
Quote:
It uses the same hunting pathways repeatedly to prey mostly on the Snowshoe Hare (in the northern U.S.) and cottontails (in the eastern U.S.), but also on mice, squirrels, Woodchucks, Virginia Opossums, moles, shrews, Common Raccoons, foxes, domestic cats, birds, reptiles, Common Porcupines, and even skunks.
Note that the birds and reptiles are often predators.

COYOTE
Quote:
In feeding, the Coyote is an opportunist, eating rabbits, mice, ground squirrels, pocket gophers, and other small mammals, as well as birds, frogs, toads, snakes, insects, and many kinds of fruit.
Note that the birds and "other small mammals" are often predators.

LONG-TAILED WEASEL
Quote:
The most widespread carnivore in the Western Hemisphere, it preys largely on mice and voles, while also taking rabbits, chipmunks, shrews, rats, birds, and poultry, and the occasional insect or earthworm.
RIVER OTTER
Most of its prey is fish. Most of the fish it eats are carnivores.

I could go on, but since one counterexample is sufficient to dispute what you said, there's no need to--especially since the bobcat example directly addresses the OP's concern about domestic cats.
  #37  
Old 05-31-2005, 01:50 PM
Crafter_Man Crafter_Man is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by groman
would coyotes really get your cats?
Yes. They eat our cats. (At least I believe that's what happens to them.) But it's not a big deal... we just get new cats.
  #38  
Old 05-31-2005, 01:59 PM
Chronos Chronos is online now
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 73,032
Quote:
And, "indoor only" cats outlive "indoor/outdoor" cats by a factor of at least 2-1.
I've never heard of any cat, indoor, outdoor, or both, that lived to 24 years. I've lived with many cats, all of them allowed outdoors whenever they want, and most of them have lived to about 12 (one recently died at the age of 18, and two others are currently 16 and 14). Even at that age, most of them have died from various health problems, not from predation, cars, or other outdoor hazards. And judging from how much effort they devote to getting outside, they certainly prefer to be free of the house, though it's of course impossible to quantify just how much they prefer it.

On the topic of carnivore-carnivore predation in general, certainly the primary reason it's so rare is that carnivores are scarcer than herbivores. A predator which truly had no preference would be expected to eat ten times as many herbivores as carnivores, in the wild, just based on that. But wouldn't herbivores also generally be easier prey? Carnivores tend to be much better armed than herbivores, and while you eat what you can, most predators would prefer to eat something unlikely to seriously injure them. I know that any predator which tried to eat our cats, for instance, would be likely to end up with a badly cut face.
__________________
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
--As You Like It, III:ii:328
Check out my dice in the Marketplace
  #39  
Old 05-31-2005, 02:18 PM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 41,617
Quote:
Peeing in the back yard to scare off coyotes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife wants me to pee in the backyard. She says it will scare off coyotes so that they won't get the cats. It sounds a little suspicious to me.

Anyone know for sure?


I think if I peed in our backyard I'd scare off my wife.




For the record, we have three cats who stay indoors. Sometimes we take them for walks, something I've expounded upon on this Board before. (They don't wear leashes or anything)


Some of our neighbors have cats. We do have coyotes, even here in Massachusetts, close to Boston. I've seen hem. AFAIK, they haven't eaten the neighbor's cats, although one did disappear many years ago.





If your wife is gung-ho about trying human urine as a coyote-deterrent, you might suggest that she supply it herself.




If she's shy about going outside, suggest that she use a container indoors.
__________________
ďOf course,Ē said my grandfather, stepping from the Time Machine and pulling a gun from his belt, ďThereís no paradox if I shoot you
  #40  
Old 05-31-2005, 02:44 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibre
. Blake's point about thermodynamics is a perfectly adequate explanation of why carnivores are generally not a common foodsource for other carnivores.

The puma claim is particularly hard to believe - though if you have evidence, I'll second the call asking you to find it.
Right- and thus my point is, again- proven.

To go into the Puma vegatarian attack thing would be a hijack, so I won't be drawn into it. Start another thread, why don't you?

Chronos
- note that my cite listing common prey of the Bobcat disagrees with yours.

And again- snakes, fish, frogs and such are outside the question- none are mammals. I never changed the premise, we were only talking about land mammal predators. This thread is not about the Great White Shark- it is about coyotes.
  #41  
Old 05-31-2005, 02:53 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Oops, not Chronos- InvisibleWombat.

I think there are several reasons, and Chronos brings up an excellent one- the fact that carnivores are better armed than herbivores, by-and-large. Another reason may be taste- meateaters don't taste as good as herbivores. Of course- they are also far less common to start with.
  #42  
Old 05-31-2005, 05:44 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
note that my cite listing common prey of the Bobcat disagrees with yours.
No, it doesn't. Yours just doesn't provide as complete a listing (and if you need more bobcat citations, I can get plenty more). Let me make my point very concisely here:

Stating that a carnivore eats herbivores does not in any way imply that said carnivore doesn't eat other carnivores as well.

You haven't provided one single cite yet that supports your statement. Find something that says carnivores don't eat other carnivores, not something that says coyotes eat rabbits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
And again- snakes, fish, frogs and such are outside the question- none are mammals. I never changed the premise, we were only talking about land mammal predators.
No, no, no! Read your own post, for goodness' sake. I referenced it by post number, and quoted it inline. Here, let me put it in a big box for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
...in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores...
Note that you didn't say "mammals" anywhere in that post. In fact, you didn't say "predators," which means carrion-eating carnivores are included, which provides me another dozen counterexamples.

All that aside, I gave you several citations for land mammal predators that eat other predators. Will you now concede the point, or are you going to try to change the target again?
__________________
---
Yes, I have joined the ranks of former moderators. Being a mod was eating my life. Now I'm a member just like you. Except smarter and better looking.
  #43  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:12 PM
ltfire ltfire is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: E 161 St. and River Ave.
Posts: 1,765
This started out with just peeing in the yard. Me thinks it has turned into a peeing on each other.
  #44  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:21 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
No, it doesn't. Yours just doesn't provide as complete a listing (and if you need more bobcat citations, I can get plenty more). Let me make my point very concisely here:

Stating that a carnivore eats herbivores does not in any way imply that said carnivore doesn't eat other carnivores as well.

You haven't provided one single cite yet that supports your statement. Find something that says carnivores don't eat other carnivores, not something that says coyotes eat rabbits.


Note that you didn't say "mammals" anywhere in that post.

All that aside, I gave you several citations for land mammal predators that eat other predators. Will you now concede the point, or are you going to try to change the target again?
In fact, my cite is as complete as yours.

Here are others: "The bobcat is a carnivore and eats a wide variety of small mammals like woodchucks, rabbits, skunks, raccoons, moles and squirrels. It also eats birds and reptiles. One of the most common prey of the bobcat is the cotton-tail rabbit. Occasionally the bobcat will kill larger prey like deer.
http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/bobcat.htm
2 omnivores, and one insectivore, rest herbivores.

"The bobcat's diet consist of rabbits, squirrels, mice, gophers,rats, and fish" No carnivores.
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/bobcat.htm

"The bobcat like all lynx has a great liking for hare and rabbit, which form a major part of the diet. However, unlike the canadian lynx, which almost exclusively hunts the snowshoe hare, the bobcat will commonly switch prey species when its preferred source of food is unavailable. Males will hunt larger prey such as deer in the winter months when other prey is scarce. Bobcats also prey on other small mammals, such as squirrels and chipmunk, rodents and birds." No carnivores.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/bco/bobcat.htm

And here's the official gov't site: "Cottontail rabbits appear to be the principal prey of bobcats throughout
bobcat's range [6,7,38]. Primary exceptions occur from Minnesota to New
England, where white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) and snowshoe
hare (Lepus americanus) increase in importance [6].
Bobcats in the Southeast rely heavily on two species, eastern
cottontails (Sylvilagus floridanus) and cotton rats, for food throughout
the year [6]. Cotton rats may be more important than eastern
cottontails from Florida to Louisiana. In the interior highlands of
Arkansas, eastern fox squirrels (Sciurus niger) and eastern gray
squirrels (S. carolinensis) are important foods. In the mountains of
eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina, the woodland vole
(Microtus pinetorum) and various species of birds are important bobcat
prey [6]. In the West rodents, especially woodrats (Neotoma spp.), are
often eaten [6,7]." Note that is a sceintific cite, with footnotes and everything. Something you haven't provided.

http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/w...uirements.html

( I think somebody's going to have to fix the coding on that one)

It's true that "stating that a carnivore eats herbivores does not in any way imply that said carnivore doesn't eat other carnivores as well." But every cite I have listed gives that carnivores "common" prey. That's how you do it in Zoology land- you list what it does prey on, not what it doesn't. (Based upon that burden of proof, I can't prove that Bobcats don't eat Elephants, either ) Not their "occasional" or "odd" or "sometimes" prey. And, that is what I stated- that carnivores do not COMMONLY prey on other carnivores. So far, I have given 15 cites, all listing various carnivores COMMON prey- and in no case has a carnivore been listed as COMMON prey. In fact- your cite doesn't list any carnivores as common either- it says "mostly on the Snowshoe Hare (in the northern U.S.) and cottontails (in the eastern U.S.), but also on mice, squirrels, Woodchucks, Virginia Opossums, moles, shrews, Common Raccoons, foxes, domestic cats, birds, reptiles, Common Porcupines, and even skunks." Emphasis mine.

Yep, you're right- in my first post I didn't list "Land mammal"- because I thought it was unnessary as we were talking about land mammals, not the Great White Shark or Tyranosaurus Rex. When it became clear that you were changing the subject, I clarified what I was talking about. The OP is about LAND MAMMALS, that was the target all along. Switching the subject to the Great White Shark or frogs is a hijack. All along- we were talking about Land mammals; coyotes and cats. Not lizards or fish. And, yes, I mean "predators' which could be apparent from the word "prey" as opposed to "eat".

I'll state it again- (land mammal) carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores. OK?
  #45  
Old 05-31-2005, 10:05 PM
conurepete conurepete is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 839
I have been thinking about it, and it is true, peeing in the yard would only help if the cats stay in the yard. I recommend peeing directly on the cats.
  #46  
Old 05-31-2005, 10:49 PM
Blake Blake is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,049
Dr. Deth this is getting ridiculous. It seems quote clear by this that you are talking shit on multiple points with no idea what you are talking about. You're just making this up. It's basic ignorant crap.

Carnivores do indeed generally prey on other carnovores. Your weaseling attempts at saying that carnivoresmostly eat herbivores is not in any way suportive of your claim about what they DON"T[eat. I've asked you multiple times for refernces to suport your claim and you've been able to supply. Either cire or get off the pot man.

Pumas are clearly not more likely to attack vegetaians. You are simply propagating an urban legend in that one. Nice behaviour on aboard dedicated to fighting ignorance.


Humans do and always have commonly eaten carnivores. And yes, bears are carnivores. they belong to the order carnivora and eat meat. That makes them carnivores. You yourself said they were carnivores. In attempting to 'prove' that carivores don;t commonly eat carnivores you said "Pumas don't hunt wolves, nor do bear hunt either" You yourself believe that bears are carnivores. And I notice you don't even attempt to address the issue of non-Europeans eating carnivores.


Coyotes do NOT prefer rodents to cats. They exhibit nbo such prefernce at all.

Dr. Deth since you can provide no written support at all for these claims can I ask on what basis you make them? What are your qualifications and experience tht lead you to these clearly erroneous conclusions?
  #47  
Old 05-31-2005, 10:52 PM
Blake Blake is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
I'll state it again- (land mammal) carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores. OK?

No it;s not OK.. It's ignoant crap without an iota of basis in fact or reality.

Most, probbaly all, land mammal carnivores species COMMONLY prey on other (land mammal) carnivores.
  #48  
Old 06-01-2005, 12:00 AM
Rick Rick is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 16,451
I'm sitting here picturing ole Wily E being hungry and looking to his left and seeing a nice little field mouse weighing in at what 8 oz? He looks to his right and spys the local house cat tipping the scales at 20 lbs. Both of these meals are equa-distant. To his left is a light snack, to his right a meal, maybe two.
Which way do you think he is going to attack? My money is on bye bye kitty.
  #49  
Old 06-01-2005, 01:15 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 33,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Dr. Deth this is getting ridiculous. It seems quote clear by this that you are talking shit on multiple points with no idea what you are talking about. You're just making this up. It's basic ignorant crap.

Carnivores do indeed generally prey on other carnovores. Your weaseling attempts at saying that carnivoresmostly eat herbivores is not in any way suportive of your claim about what they DON"T[eat. I've asked you multiple times for refernces to suport your claim and you've been able to supply. Either cire or get off the pot man.

. And yes, bears are carnivores. they belong to the order carnivora and eat meat. That makes them carnivores.
Dr. Deth since you can provide no written support at all for these claims can I ask on what basis you make them? What are your qualifications and experience tht lead you to these clearly erroneous conclusions?
I have given you 13 cites. That's 9 more than you have. And, several of my cites are from scientific papers, fully footnoted and everything.

No, I can't show you a cite that says "carnivores don't prey on other carnivores". That's because no one lists what animals don't eat- they list what they DO eat. It's also impossible to prove a negative. I can give you 1000 cites that won't list "grizzly bear" on the list of common prey for the bobcat. So- then you say "well, that doesn't PROVE the bobcat doesn't kill and eat grizzlys". Well, Blake- that's not the way Zoology or logic works- Zoologists list what an animal does eat, not what it doesn't eat. You can't prove a negative. I can't prove that coyotes don't prey on the Great Blue Whale either.

Bears are indeed in the Order Carnivore. But they are Omniverous.

Cites:"Black bears, polar bear and grizzly bears are members of the carnivora order, but they are omnivores.Most of the black bear's diet consists of plants. In the summer months it eats grasses, herbs, sedges, fruits, berries and nuts. It also eats insects. Black bears don't hunt for meat, but if they happen to come across carrion (a dead animal) they will eat it.
http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/nwep10b.htm

"Throughout their ranges in North America, black bears consume primarily grasses and forbs in spring, soft mast in the form of shrub and tree-borne fruits in summer, and a mixture of hard and soft mast in fall. However, the availability of different food types varies regionally. Only a small portion of the diet of bears consists of animal matter, and then primarily in the form of colonial insects and beetles. Most vertebrates are consumed in the form of carrion. Black bears are not active predators and feed on vertebrates only if the opportunity exists."
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed...mericanus.html

"Diet: Omnivore, eats fruit, nuts, acorns, insects, succulent greens, and meat."
http://www.kidsturncentral.com/animals/blackbear.htm

"The black bear, like all bears, is a predator, and an omnivore. "
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/amer...bear_taiga.htm

"Although classified as a carnivore, the black bear is a true omnivore, opportunistically feeding on a wide range of food items. Analysis of scat (bear droppings) shows that vegetable material almost always comprises over half the bear's diet, with insects and other animals comprising a small percentage. In particular, fresh leaves, fruits, berries, nuts, roots, and tubers are favorite foods seasonally, with insects and small mammals eaten when the opportunity arises."
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/nature/w...mals/bbear.htm

"A number of the Carnivora are omnivores though, particularly the Bears..."
http://www.earthlife.net/mammals/diet.html

"carnivores are animals that eat a diet consisting only of meat.
Also, the word could refer to the mammals of the Order Carnivora, many (but not all) of which fit the first definition. Bears are an example of members of Carnivora that are not true carnivores."
http://www.answers.com/topic/carnivore

Enough? That's now 20 or so cites.

Personal insults don't get you very far in GD. Cites and facts do.
  #50  
Old 06-01-2005, 02:38 AM
xash xash is offline
Ogministrator
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 4,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Dr. Deth this is getting ridiculous. It seems quote clear by this that you are talking shit on multiple points with no idea what you are talking about. You're just making this up. It's basic ignorant crap.

...

Either cire or get off the pot man.
Blake, please note that you are in GQ and you may not make such statements in GQ.

Take it to the Pit if you cannot be civil.

-xash
General Questions Moderator
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:14 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright © 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017