Do you consider this rude?

[Plan B]

Every so often I'll be at an event, usually a wedding or a business gathering. And I'll be talking to someone and someone else will come up to the person I'm talking to and just start talking to them without acknowledging me. Often there will be some big hugs-either Hello or Goodbye - between them. Sometimes that's it. Sometimes the intruder will just launch into some long conversation.

Occasionally I'll be the one who is approached, maybe as often, but probably not. When that happens I'll do whatever I can to bring the person I was talking to into the conversation. And when I have to intrude, I always apologize to the third person and try to be as brief as possible, e.g. Excuse me.... Harry, sorry I didn't get a chance to say Hi, I have to run, I'll call you this week. Excuse me.

I'm also wondering if this is a boy/girl thing. I'm a guy. I haven't kept count but I think that woman are more likely to feel this kind of interaction is OK.

[QuickSilver]

It's very rude. Some people were not raised with proper manners. Others simply don't get it.

Depending on my mood or how much of a smart ass I feel like being, I'll just interject and introduce myself and say, "You know, John/Jane and I were just having a conversation about <blah> and we were wondering what you thought of <blah topic>!" Then big grin and direct look in the eye of the offender. Alternately, just walk away and let John/Jane catch up to you later if they want to finish the conversation.

[badbadrubberpiggy]

I think it's rude - if you need to say goodbye to someone who's already engaged in conversation with someone, then you need to excuse yourself, not just barge in. Aknowledge that you're interrupting, apologize, and greet the person who you need to greet. Also, don't ignore the other person, even if you have no idea who they are - you've interrupted their conversation as well.

[Pixisis]

I'm a girl and I also think it's rude.

Sure, sometimes I might break in, especially if I have to leave, but I *always* acknowledge the other person, and that I am interupting.

[carlotta]

I don't think it's rude exactly. At a big gathering like that you could wait all day for the person you want to talk to to be unengaged. It's socially inept for the person approached not to introduce the newcomer to the other person.

"Aunt Rosie! It's great to see you! This is Nancy's cousin Eddie's wife Bella. Bella this is my Aunt Rosie. She's Jason's step-grandmother in-law. Aunt Rosie we were just talking about Jason's prison term. It won't start till after the honeymoon right?"

[Giraffe]

Originally Posted by carlotta

I don't think it's rude exactly. At a big gathering like that you could wait all day for the person you want to talk to to be unengaged. It's socially inept for the person approached not to introduce the newcomer to the other person.

I agree with this 100%. Mingling at a party or large gathering is a much more fluid social situation, so people should be open to conversational groups expanding, contracting, merging or fully dissolving. Both the intruder and your friend could have handled the situation more adeptly, but I wouldn't call them rude.

[Cat Whisperer]

I think it's rude in any situation. If you're interrupting a conversation, you're interrupting a conversation, no matter where it is, and you need to excuse yourself. People don't get away with that if someone's interrupting to talk to me - I bring the interrupted party back into the conversation.

[clairobscur]

It's probably somewhat rude. But I don't think it deserves being bothered about it. :shrug :

[twickster]

I think it's rude. Sometimes you interrupt someone else's conversation at a party, but you start with "Sorry to interrrupt..."

If the interrupter starts talking to you, you should say "Hi -- here, let me introduce you to [person you're already talking to]." If you absolutely have to talk to the interrupter, you should apologize to the person you're talking to, briefly explain why, promise to get back to him or her to finish the conversation -- and then make every effort to do so.

If the interrupter is talking to the person you're talking to, there's unfortunately not much you can do without compounding rudeness -- though I recommend posting on a message board later to vent.

[Queen Tonya]

Yes, it's rude.

However, for me it's handy to pretend to be rude sometimes. My group has a code, if you haven't introduced the interrupter in five seconds, it means you've forgotten their name. The other person then makes a big "Well, since Queen Tonya's been stricken with abominable manners, let me introduce myself. Hi, I'm Judy and you are?"
That way I don't have to stand there frozen with my forgetting and not rightfully call the interrupter on their intrusion.

[Scarlett67]

One vote for extremely rude, in any situation. It's easy enough to simply walk up, make eye contact, wait a little bit for a suitable break, and politely break in with an "Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say goodbye." You can aid this with a light touch on the arm if necessary to get the person's attention. Walking up and starting along conversation is inexcusable.

My friend's daughter (who was old enough to know better) was once doing the "Mom . . . Mom . . . Mom . . . " bit that kids do while my friend was busy (on the phone or with a customer or something). I told her that she'd have much better luck by just walking up to her mother and waiting with a big smile until she was acknowledged. Mom agreed, and after that I saw her use the new method several times, with much success (and thanks from Mom).

[Queen Bruin]

Female checking in saying it's rude. I dealt with this sort of thing alot when my husband would play gigs. I should be more forgiving with that given the environment, but it still bugged the shit out of me.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by carlotta

It's socially inept for the person approached not to introduce the newcomer to the other person.

Which is the other side to the rudeness in OP. You walk up to someone you know pretty well, and are on good terms with. That person is talking to someone who's a stranger to you. You don't interrupt. You just stand close by, obviously listening to their conversation, and obviously wanting to speak with your acquaintance. But he or she just keeps talking to the other person for minutes on end, ignoring your presence. This happened to me once, and I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Eventually the stranger introduced herself to me, obviously wanting to bring me into the conversation. It was rude of my acquaintance, but I don't think he meant it that way. It think he was just clueless.

[cwthree]

It's simply rude. Even if it's urgent, it just doesn't take that long to say "Excuse me..." or "Pardon me..." If you're one of the people in the conversation, it also doesn't take that long to say, "Sure, just a moment" to the newcomer and "Excuse me, please" to the person with whom you were conversing.

People at our old synagogue used to do this to me and cwPartner all the time. The only thing that bothered me more than the intrusion was that cwPartner (and they always wanted to talk to cwPartner, not me) would just let them hijack the conversation and drop me like a hot potato.

[Misnomer]

Another female weighing in on the "rude" side. As twickster alluded, it's not the interruption itself that is rude so much as the method of interruption. There is absolutely no excuse for not saying "excuse me," "sorry to interrupt," or something along those lines.

Originally Posted by guizot

You walk up to someone you know pretty well, and are on good terms with. That person is talking to someone who's a stranger to you. You don't interrupt. You just stand close by, obviously listening to their conversation, and obviously wanting to speak with your acquaintance. But he or she just keeps talking to the other person for minutes on end, ignoring your presence.

See, I consider this to be just as rude: it's still an interruption, just a passive-aggressive one (again, it's the method much more than the interruption itself). I don't blame your friend one bit for ignoring you. I can't stand people who come up to me in situations like you describe and just hover -- or people at the office who walk up to my desk while I'm working and just stand there until I look up and acknowledge them. Your very presence is an interruption, but if you don't have the grace to say "excuse me" and then say what's on your mind (or join the conversation), darn straight I'm going to ignore you. I also ignore people who approach me in the manner described in the OP ... or, if I must acknowledge them, I smile and say, "I'm sorry, but I was talking with XXX; I'll be right with you." I do not reward rudeness if I can help it.

[serious lark]

I agree with most of what's been already said, except the part about the hovering being rude. I tend to hover, waiting for a natural pause or break in the conversation before butting in with an "excuse me please ..." , because I think that is more polite than butting in blindly.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

I can't stand people who come up to me in situations like you describe and just hover -- or people at the office who walk up to my desk while I'm working and just stand there until I look up and acknowledge them. Your very presence is an interruption, but if you don't have the grace to say "excuse me"

Well, I did say “Hi,” and thought he’d at least respond.

Next time I’ll be sure first to say: “Excuse me for saying ‘Hi,’ but…well, Hi. Is that okay with you? Excuse my 'hovering', please. If you could tell me somewhere else to put my body in this tiny, cramped room filled with people that won't offend you, please do.”

Nah. I’ll just find someone else to talk to. Someone who understands "Hi."

[Mangetout]

It is a bit rude, however the alternative can involve rudeness; you approach a couple of people who are talking; they glance at you, then resume their conversation at length; you stand there, waiting for an opportunity to say something (which more often than not is as simple as 'gotta go, thanks for everything, bye!'), but they just keep on talking, aware that you're there waiting to say something. This is rude.

[Misnomer]

Originally Posted by guizot

Next time I’ll be sure first to say: “Excuse me for saying ‘Hi,’ but…well, Hi. Is that okay with you? Excuse my 'hovering', please. If you could tell me somewhere else to put my body in this tiny, cramped room filled with people that won't offend you, please do.”

Sorry to put a cramp in your martyrdom, but in your first post you neglected to mention that you'd said anything. You only said that you stood close by, listening to their conversation. Standing around hovering is rude; saying "hi" is fine (not as good as "excuse me," but you're at least attempting to ease your way in). Don't tell a story and then simultaneously change it and get all defensive when you don't get the reaction you were looking for.

Besides, I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks that hovering is rude; why get your knickers in a twist about little ol' me?

[Trunk]

The situation I'm imagining is something like this. . .

A & B are talking to each other.

I'm leaving the party. I walk up and tap A on the elbow, and fire off a quick, "I'm taking off. See ya."

A says, "All right, nice to see you. We're still on for Wednesday right?"

"Right."

Then I'm gone.

I wouldn't go up to two people conversing and go, "how about that Orioles game last night?"

Trying to define a social setting in writing and commenting on the rules of what's appropriate isn't exactly easy. All social settings have their own set of rules/flow/etiquette.

[Enright3]

You know, one thing I can't stand is for someone to keep on talking when I'm trying to inturrupt!

[guizot]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

in your first post you neglected to mention that you'd said anything.

Yes, I did forget that. Sorry. I also forgot to mention that it wasn't a personal conversation; in fact it was work-related and involved a project that I'd started myself, which this guy knew. And I forgot to mention that this took place in a cramped, East Hollywood kitchen (filled with a bunch of Peruvians, no less) where it would but be all but impossible not to "hover." If he'd wanted a precious tête-à-tête he should have gone out to the porch or some place like that. Yes, I could have said "excuse me," but that would just have seemed silly in the context. ("Excuse me, Raji, but if you'll remember correctly, I did that particular interview, and could say a few things about it from first hand experience" etc., which he well knew. In certain social contexts, there is something we call "common courtesy.") And I wasn't expecting any particular reaction or being defensive; I just thought it was a little strange. (In fact, come to think of it, the guy was kind of strange in general.)

And since I don't wear "knickers," (whatever they are) I wouldn't even know how to get them in a twist, least of all about you (which is not to be rude or offensive or anything; I just didn't think you'd care that much about my clothing).

And you're not the only one to consider "hovering" rude in certain contexts--in the work place, it definitely is uncalled for, since many projects are "private" in workspace environments, and I completely agree with you.

As someone stated above, context is everything. If I'd actually been "passive-aggressive,"--however convenient and popular a term like like that is for someone simply being circumspect-- the result might have been quite different. I just brushed the whole thing off.

[guizot]

You know, one thing I can't understand is people who can't conceive of a conversation which involves more than two people who talk in perfect turns which never overlap. Maybe it's just a cultural thing. But I can certainly tell and respect when two people who are talking don't need a third, and I'll stay out. Still, if you recorded (and I mean literally, with a video camera) all the conversations that you heard in your life you'd find many, many "interruptions" that are considered perfectly appropriate, or at least not offensive. The Aristotelian ideal of "dialog" is exactly that: an ideal, not a reality. Real language is chaos much more often that it is Hollywood script. But that my be hard to realize if you've been raised on TV and Hollywood scripts. For that matter, just log onto one of those innane "chatrooms": "Any girls out there want to chat?" ("Sure. There's a crank addict at the bus stop on the corner who'd loved to meet you. Go for it, dude.")

[guizot]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

or people at the office who walk up to my desk while I'm working and just stand there until I look up and acknowledge them. Your very presence is an interruption, but if you don't have the grace to say "excuse me" and then say what's on your mind (or join the conversation), darn straight I'm going to ignore you. I also ignore people who approach me in the manner described in the OP ... or, if I must acknowledge them, I smile and say, "I'm sorry, but I was talking with XXX; I'll be right with you." I do not reward rudeness if I can help it.

If you'd spend some time in the South Pacific, you'd learn that "announcing" one's presense is a very different thing than Dilbert style cubicle life (which, thank Og, is not the majority of workspace in this world, not to mention that Dilbert is a pretty stupid comic, IMHO). In Western Somoa, for example what you expect is extremely disrespectful. Younger people always come to older people (who, by virture of their age, are not expected to move as much, or recognize younger people), and younger people must wait to be recognized. It's a sign of respect, and , in fact, children in Western Somoa learn the verb "go" before they learn the verb "come," because they don't have the social status that requires others to "come" to them.

So I agree, in the pathetic "Dilbert" world, go ahead and ignore someone who doesn't have the "grace" to say "excuse me." But you might also benefit to know that there are many more kinds of "grace" than you might dream on in this world.

I understand that you are talking about the (IMHO lame) Dilbert environment
I don't mean to be critical at all; I recognize your feelings full well, and I feel the same way quite often.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

Besides, I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks that hovering is rude; why get your knickers in a twist about little ol' me?

It's ok to hover briefly until an appropriate break in the conversation, then say "excuse me" to deliver your message.


Or you could go the opposite route - cut the conversation mid-sentence and tell the other person to "go get us a few drinks".

[Misnomer]

Originally Posted by msmith537

It's ok to hover briefly until an appropriate break in the conversation, then say "excuse me" to deliver your message.

Of course! But that's not the kind of hovering that was being discussed here.

Or you could go the opposite route - cut the conversation mid-sentence and tell the other person to "go get us a few drinks".

Heh.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

I always consider it fairly rude to be as vague as "Do you consider this rude?" in a thread title.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

I always consider it fairly rude to be as vague as "Do you consider this rude?" in a thread title.

Well, I consider it to be a kind of "Dear Abby" type of thing. The advantage is that you get a variety of viewpoints, rather than just one. Ironically (perhaps), you never really get a straight answer to solve your pesonal situation. But then, what makes Abby's daughters any more authoratative?

I think Misnomer great user name, by the way! has expressed some very helpful views regarding office interactions, though I have brought up possible exceptions, and didn't really express myself well initially.

But you raise a very good point, pseudotrition ruber ruber (another great user name that I don't understand.). While I don't consider it to be rude to ask a vaque question, very rarely does one get a consensus on IMHO. Which makes it both amusing and frustrating.

I guess that's kind of what IMHO is all about.

I can think of a great number of things that I could ask, "Do you think this is rude?" But then I realize we're all just people trying to survive in a very crazed, mixed-up world, and that most people don't mean harm or offense.

As I grow older, I try to ask more often: "What is his/her good intention," rather than "How did he/she offend me?" I don't think I'm such an offensive person that the first response someone would have toward me is to be rude.

Then again, I may be wrong. I'll ask my higher power.

[Q.N. Jones]

Originally Posted by Plan B

I haven't kept count but I think that woman are more likely to feel this kind of interaction is OK.

Woman here, and I think it's rude if it goes beyond the "hi, bye" interaction you describe. Emily Post and her ilk agree.

There's some gray area in there, but not much.

Funny, I always thought men were more socially inept about these sorts of things.

[js_africanus]

Meh. I can easily see wanting to say something quick, or just say hello, and have it blow into a conversation. Intending to avoid a longer interruption of introductions with a quick exchange, and having it go longer than anticipated. Regardless, we don't have take-a-number service in social situations and interruptions of this sort are part-and-parcel of being in public.

The person who bears the most responsibility is the one who knows both parties. Suppose I'm chatting w/ Plan B and QuickSilver approaches and says hello. I should introduce Plan B and QuickSilver and bring both into the conversation. If I cannot remember QuickSilver's name, then I say to QuickSilver, "Do you know Plan B?" That's QuickSilver's cue to introduce himself because I've forgotten his name.

[js_africanus]

Originally Posted by guizot

You know, one thing I can't understand is people who can't conceive of a conversation which involves more than two people who talk in perfect turns which never overlap. Maybe it's just a cultural thing.

Bummer that I missed this first time through. You are confusing me because your opening sentence speaks of the Socratic dialog as being something everyone should be able to grasp, and finish by saying that it is an unrealistic ideal.

Regardless, as for being a cultural thing: When I was at summer ski camp in high school, my cabinmates would talk all over one another. There was no give & take, no listening to the other persons' remarks before responding. Finally I couldn't take it any more and expressed my frustration. They looked at me like I was from outer space. "We're Jewish," they said, "That's how Jewish people talk." Fair enough.

[/hijack]

[guizot]

Originally Posted by js_africanus

Bummer that I missed this first time through. You are confusing me because your opening sentence speaks of the Socratic dialog as being something everyone should be able to grasp, and finish by saying that it is an unrealistic ideal.

Well, I deliberately left out a comma between "two people" and "who" so that it would be a restrictive clause:

Originally Posted by guizot

people who can't conceive of a conversation which involves more than two people who talk in perfect turns which never overlap.

just meanig to say that it's somewhat arrogant to feel that no one should speak while you're speaking in a casual social setting, and that everyone should wait until you've finished your brilliant point and that when someone overlaps with you they are somehow violating your devine oration.

I wasn't really that concerned that people should grasp the Socratic dialog; I just meant to say it's not what to expect at most dinner parties.

Originally Posted by js_africanus

Regardless, as for being a cultural thing: When I was at summer ski camp in high school, my cabinmates would talk all over one another. There was no give & take, no listening to the other persons' remarks before responding. Finally I couldn't take it any more and expressed my frustration. They looked at me like I was from outer space. "We're Jewish," they said, "That's how Jewish people talk." Fair enough.

Well, you live and learn. Great story!

[irishgirl]

js_africanus-your summer camp people sound like my family. Never thought about it being a Jewish thing (my mother is 1/2 Jewish) just a bonkers, loud, loving family thing. We tend to intimidate guests until they get used to it.

Regardless, if you need to interrupt you say "I'm so sorry to interrupt you X, but I should only need a moment". At which point you turn to Y and say either, "I don't think we've met, I'm Z, please excuse my rudeness but I'll only take a second of X's time" or "Thanks for being so understanding Y, I'll just be a moment".

Just butting in and dragging someone off when they're having a conversation with someone is inexcusable.

Butting into conversations however is at the core of most social gatherings, and is perfectly acceptable as long as you involve all parties, and it's obvious that the people aren't discussing something private. "I couldn't help overhearing..." is a great opener.

[CanvasShoes]

I'm a woman, and I think it's pretty clueless, with a side helping of rude. It's normal manners to excuse yourself when you enter a conversation already in progress.

[js_africanus]

Originally Posted by guizot

just meanig to say that it's somewhat arrogant to feel that no one should speak while you're speaking in a casual social setting, and that everyone should wait until you've finished your brilliant point and that when someone overlaps with you they are somehow violating your devine oration.

Well, I can't say that I agree w/ that characterization of a give-and-take conversation, even in a social setting. After all, if I'm talking w/ someone it's because I'd like to hear what she has to say.

[Thylacinewas taken]

A similar thing that bugs me is when I'm with a friend and we run into one of their friends, they start talking to them, without introducing or acknowledging me, and it's like I'm not there anymore. That pisses me off!

[The Asbestos Mango]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

Another female weighing in on the "rude" side. As twickster alluded, it's not the interruption itself that is rude so much as the method of interruption. There is absolutely no excuse for not saying "excuse me," "sorry to interrupt," or something along those lines.

See, I consider this to be just as rude: it's still an interruption, just a passive-aggressive one (again, it's the method much more than the interruption itself). I don't blame your friend one bit for ignoring you. I can't stand people who come up to me in situations like you describe and just hover -- or people at the office who walk up to my desk while I'm working and just stand there until I look up and acknowledge them.

Damn, the things people consider to be rude. So the person who comes up to your desk and quietly waits for you to finish up with whatever your doing and acknowledge them is being passive-aggressive? I hope I never find myself working with you, because that's what I do. Where I come from, it's called being polite.

Anyhoo, I think that the whole "person C comes up to person A, who is talking with person B, and starts talking with them, and both of them completely ignore person B" is beyond rude. It's downright mean.

[Misnomer]

Originally Posted by The Asbestos Mango

Damn, the things people consider to be rude. So the person who comes up to your desk and quietly waits for you to finish up with whatever your doing and acknowledge them is being passive-aggressive? I hope I never find myself working with you, because that's what I do. Where I come from, it's called being polite.

Damn, the things people consider to be polite. As I said, in such a situation your very presence is an interruption: what makes you think that you're being polite by just standing there and hovering instead of acknowledging that you've interrupted? Damn straight that's passive-aggressive! Either speak up or go away.

And what kind of place do you work in where people are likely to finish whatever they're doing within a few minutes? Just this morning, I spent 20-25 minutes editing a slide presentation: if you had come up to my desk when I'd just started, would you really expect to just stand there quietly for almost half an hour?

Do us both a favor: if you ever find yourself considering a job opening at a small software company in northern Virginia, "just say no."

[roger thornhill]

Originally Posted by carlotta

I don't think [coming up to a person already engaged in a conversation and starting talking to him/her without acknowledging the other peson] is rude exactly. At a big gathering like that you could wait all day for the person you want to talk to to be unengaged. It's socially inept for the person approached not to introduce the newcomer to the other person.

Originally Posted by Giraffe

I agree with this 100%. Mingling at a party or large gathering is a much more fluid social situation, so people should be open to conversational groups expanding, contracting, merging or fully dissolving. Both the intruder and your friend could have handled the situation more adeptly, but I wouldn't call them rude.

Social situations themselves may be divided into more formal social situations, where for example your boss is present, or clients, or other important people, and less formal social situations, such as a 40th birthday bash.
In the latter, the environment (the music, the booze, the ambience) may enable, even encourage butting in. (And it should be noted that interruption isn't a unitary phenomenon - only some types of interruption are related to variables which reflect dominance). In the former, the power aspect is an important factor. Powerful people tend to interrupt more, and their interruptions tend to be excused more by participants (especially the one who will become the powerful person's interlocutor - and that role may change of course over different occasions, or over different speech events on the same occasion). Indeed, that interlocutor, as well as the powerful person, would probably not consider the change in speaking arrangements to be an interruption (i.e interactionally deviant) at all. BUT, if it happened to them...

[guizot]

Well, if anything at all can be certainly gleaned from this thread is that "context is everything."

In fact, at the risk of annoying everyone, I'll repeat it: "Context is everything."

Even again: "Context is everything."

One other note: I've noticed that as I've moved up in my hierarchical position in my work, people tend to proffer me more observance. But I don't really care for observance. If I'm working on some computer-type thing, an exalted Power Point presentation (the modern form of a slide-slow presentation or OHP which accomplishes basically the same thing), I do not consider the job so particularly technical in the computer sense that a well-meaning and polite co-worker can't come in and politely mention some idea that might improve it. The software has pre-empted the effectiveness of the ideas. Bureaucratic fools are impressed by the animations of Power Point, but it doesn't necessarily make the idea any better. They're just kids with new toys. You can work all night on your fancy Power Point presentation; that doesn't mean that it means a hill of beans.

Don't get me wrong. I'll use any software to make a good point. But I won't scoff at someone who is simply trying to be polite by not butting in; especially if that person might have something really helpful to add. And if you're so important in your job that you can't even recognize someone standing nearby without considering it an "interruption," you certainly have a very high consideration of yourself. I can't imagine working on any Power Point presentation which is so important that you would never even consider the presence of another human being. But, on the other hand, I wouldn't consider such behavior so unusual considering how office conditions are; office environments and the attitudes they produce often lead to such condescending attitudes. ("How dare you stand around me while I'm doing such an important thing. You can't have anything important to add to my project, and why should I bother to recognize you? You have to excuse yourself for being in my presence. Then maybe I'll consider your existance. After all, we're not working here to accomplish anything in particular; we're here to show who are the most important people.")

Maybe I'm wrong, but I happen to believe that you can work in an office and also be a decent human being at the same time.

I suggest we all re-watch "Betty la fea."

[roger thornhill]

Originally Posted by guizot

I've noticed that as I've moved up in my hierarchical position in my work, people tend to proffer me more observance. But I don't really care for observance.

Nor do I, until l don't get it any more.

My real beef is people who try to butt in when I'm using the photocopier. No latitude here - this is the mother ans father of unitary phenomena, a situation about as monolithic interpretation-wise as it gets. Wait!

Mine's urgent too...I'll let you know when I'm done...Now sit the f*** down.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by js_africanus

Well, I can't say that I agree w/ that characterization of a give-and-take conversation, even in a social setting. After all, if I'm talking w/ someone it's because I'd like to hear what she has to say.

Okay, your point is well-taken. And I wish to say that I really appreciate your comments, , js_africansnus but can't you eventually get to hear what she has to say after a certain amount of give and take? Do you really think a dinner party conversation should resemble a formal, political debate?

Yes, in theory it seems nice if a person can say what they want to say, in the exact order they want to say it, and then wait for a response. (As on the floor of the US Senate.) On the other hand, when another person interjects (and that is not the same as an interruption), it can widen, expand, and clarify ideas not only more quickly but also more succinctly.

I personally think this is the very beauty of spoken languge. You might even eventually get to hear completely what your interlocutotor means to say if you stay for the whole dinner party. I certainly don't mean to say that you are not the kind of person who would not stay for the whole dinner party, but I acutally am, because I get shy, and and feel that no one wants to talk to me anyway.

You know js_africansusu, and I would really like to continue discussion with you. I don't even know where you live, but I'm in Cali (NO!, not Cali, Colomibia-though it's a wonderful city--but CA, USA). You are a very perceptive person. Right now, I can bearlry stay awake, let alone spell correctly.

I will send you my email and hope youe respond. You are a very interesting coorespondant.

Quizot

[roger thornhill]

Originally Posted by guizot

You know, one thing I can't understand is people who can't conceive of a conversation which involves more than two people who talk in perfect turns which never overlap. Maybe it's just a cultural thing.

Originally Posted by js_africanus

Bummer that I missed this first time through. You are confusing me because your opening sentence speaks of the Socratic dialog as being something everyone should be able to grasp, and finish by saying that it is an unrealistic ideal.

The perils of multiple negatives. I too struggled to understand the intended meaning.

[js_africanus]

Originally Posted by guizot

Okay, your point is well-taken. And I wish to say that I really appreciate your comments, , js_africansnus but can't you eventually get to hear what she has to say after a certain amount of give and take? Do you really think a dinner party conversation should resemble a formal, political debate?

Well, on some narrow subject, sure, but a conversation ebbs and flows as well. One doesn't have to have to have an ordered (for lack of a better word) conversation, but that doesn't mean one can't, either.

I will send you my email and hope youe respond. You are a very interesting coorespondant.

If you've already sent it, then I've accidently deleted it.

[The Asbestos Mango]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

Damn, the things people consider to be polite. As I said, in such a situation your very presence is an interruption: what makes you think that you're being polite by just standing there and hovering instead of acknowledging that you've interrupted? Damn straight that's passive-aggressive! Either speak up or go away.

Yes, because I have tremendous psychic powers, so I know that I am disrupting your concentration by my mere presence within ten feet of you without your so much as having cast a glance in my direction.

You actually consider it polite to come barging up to someone who is in the middle of performing some task and say "Excuse me" (but whatever you're doing couldn't possibly be as important as what I have to say to you, so drop what you're doing this very instant and PAY ATTENTION TO ME, DAMMIT)?

And what kind of place do you work in where people are likely to finish whatever they're doing within a few minutes? Just this morning, I spent 20-25 minutes editing a slide presentation: if you had come up to my desk when I'd just started, would you really expect to just stand there quietly for almost half an hour?

Actually, I work in a setting where entering the room I'm working in for any reason other than to tell me that the building is on fire and I should help my client get dressed and out of the building would be considered not only rude, but extremely unprofessional. I'm a massage therapist, which is a profession which requires a certain amount of consideration for other people.

But in the past, I have worked in a factory and a warehouse, where yes, it would be reasonable to expect that it would only take a minute or two to finish that small handful of wires you're soldering, or that trumpet you're checking for defects before shipping. If someone approached my workspace in this setting, I would at the very least look up and make eye contact to see what they wanted.

No, you're the one being passive-aggressive here. Refusing to acknowledge someone's presence because they have committed the crime of being withing ten feet of you, thereby "interrupting" you, what, you consider that polite? You can't just glance up and say, "Can you come back in twenty minutes or so, this is going to take a while?"

Do us both a favor: if you ever find yourself considering a job opening at a small software company in northern Virginia, "just say no."

Do the working world at large a favor, if you ever find yourself considering a job opening at any company that requires people to treat each other with respect (admittedly few and far between these days), "just say no"

[Misnomer]

Originally Posted by The Asbestos Mango

Yes, because I have tremendous psychic powers, so I know that I am disrupting your concentration by my mere presence within ten feet of you without your so much as having cast a glance in my direction.

It hardly takes "psychic powers" to understand that approaching someone who is working on a task is, in and of itself, an interruption.

You actually consider it polite to come barging up to someone who is in the middle of performing some task and say "Excuse me" (but whatever you're doing couldn't possibly be as important as what I have to say to you, so drop what you're doing this very instant and PAY ATTENTION TO ME, DAMMIT)?

But isn't that what your very presence is saying? That's what any interruption is about, when you get right down to it. However, in the polite world, the follow-on is more like "Excuse me, do you have a minute?" or "Sorry to interrupt, but can I ask a quick question?"

I'm a massage therapist

...

But in the past, I have worked in a factory and a warehouse

Wait, so, you've never even worked in an office, but you're arguing office ettiquette with me?

No, you're the one being passive-aggressive here.

Ah, but I acknowledge that my behaviour is passive-aggressive.

You can't just glance up and say, "Can you come back in twenty minutes or so, this is going to take a while?"

What, without knowing what the person wants? Maybe they just have a quick question, or maybe they need 2 hours of my time. How is it my responsibility to change my schedule to meet needs that haven't even been expressed to me?

Do the working world at large a favor, if you ever find yourself considering a job opening at any company that requires people to treat each other with respect (admittedly few and far between these days), "just say no"

Ok, you're getting waaaay too worked up over a simple difference of opinion. You're the one who said you hoped you'd never have to work with me, so I gave you a general description of my company to help you avoid that situation. I'll say the same thing to you that I said to guizot: I'm the only one in the thread so far who has this opinion, so why get your knickers in a twist about little ol' me?

For the record, rudeness and/or disrespect are not tolerated at my company. I am very well-liked here (and that's not just my opinion, I know it for a fact), I enjoy leadership responsibilities, and I get compliments about my consideration and politeness.

You seriously need to chill, and get back to me when you've worked in an office for a while.

[The Asbestos Mango]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

It hardly takes "psychic powers" to understand that approaching someone who is working on a task is, in and of itself, an interruption.

As evidenced by the fact that you are going on with your work as though tthe person wasn't there.

[qrote]But isn't that what your very presence is saying? That's what any interruption is about, when you get right down to it.[/quote]

No, my presence is saying, "I have a question/something I need to tell you when you're done/can conveniently bookmark what you're doing."

However, in the polite world, the follow-on is more like "Excuse me, do you have a minute?" or "Sorry to interrupt, but can I ask a quick question?"

No, in the polite world you wait until the person looks up and acknowledges you, rather than go out of your way to break their train of though (unless it is apparent after about fifteen seconds or so that the person hasn't seen you, then a polite sound such as a throat clearing is in order.) THEN, you say, "Sorry to interrupt..." or whatever.

Wait, so, you've never even worked in an office, but you're arguing office ettiquette with me?

Assume much? I've never worked for a software firm, but, guess what, there is more than one kind of office. Guess what? Massage studios have offices, too, and when the therapists aren't in session, we're handling the clerical/receptionist duties. I've also done clerical work and market research, and whether you're soldering a wire, entering a time card, or doing the post-survey data entry, the rules of etiquette still apply. You give the person you're approaching a bit of time to finish what they're doing, or come to a point where stopping won't cause them to have to backtrack, and wait for them to acknowledge you.

Ah, but I acknowledge that my behaviour is passive-aggressive.

Good on you.

What, without knowing what the person wants? Maybe they just have a quick question, or maybe they need 2 hours of my time. How is it my responsibility to change my schedule to meet needs that haven't even been expressed to me?

And by ignoring the person who has been so obnoxiously rude as to recognize the fact that your job may be important, you will never find out. Ever consider the idea of asking, "Whatcha need?" and determining if this is going to take two minutes or two hours?

Ok, you're getting waaaay too worked up over a simple difference of opinion. You're the one who said you hoped you'd never have to work with me, so I gave you a general description of my company to help you avoid that situation.

You're the one who considers having respect for your coworker to be rude and passive-aggressive.

For the record, rudeness and/or disrespect are not tolerated at my company. I am very well-liked here (and that's not just my opinion, I know it for a fact), I enjoy leadership responsibilities, and I get compliments about my consideration and politeness.

Your company must have some strange corporate culture if respecting the fact that someone's job is important is considered rude and passive-aggressive, and ignoring a person for showing that respect is thought to be considerate and polite.

You seriously need to chill, and get back to me when you've worked in an office for a while.

I have.

Or now are you going to say that the rules of etiquette are different if your job is editing PowerPoint slides than if it's data entry?

[Misnomer]

No, now I'm going to say that I'm tired of the willful disregard of logic and common sense, the sarcasm, and the thinly-veiled insults.

Have a lovely evening.

[The Asbestos Mango]

Just so you know, I consulted with the Mango Tree on this matter. My mother worked her way up from billing clerk to business manager of a major oncology practice back home in Indiana (this was in the Paleolithic era when doing your job well got you raises and promotions, rather than the pink slip that seems usual the past decade or so), and also has a shrine to Miss Manners in her bedroom, and so probably knows a thing or two about office etiquette.

She agrees with me- when approaching a desk where someone is working, you hover. This is the polite thing to do. To speak to the person before they acknowledge you gives the message that you think that their job is unimportant and they should drop what they're doing immediately and attend to you. And the polite response to a hoverer is to finish/bookmark whatever you're doing and say something to the effect of "Hi, can I help you".

[roger thornhill]

Please send the Mango Tree over here (the climate's perfect for her) - and you can throw in Miss Manners for good measure. Let them see if they can train my boss. Last week she walked up to my desk when I was on the phone - and it was after office hours - and proceeded to talk to me at full volume, AS IF MY PHONE DIDN'T EVEN EXIST.

It's been in therapy ever since.