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  #1  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:03 PM
Avarie537 Avarie537 is offline
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High noon vs. low noon (???)

I work for a property management company. Someone called to make an appointment for a showing, and our leasing agent said she could be there at 12:00 noon.

Caller: Is that high noon or low noon?

Leasing Agent: What? High noon or low noon? I meant 12:00 - noon.

C: Well, is that high noon or low noon?

LA: The middle of the day. 12:00 PM - just noon.

C: OK.

We've been confused ever since. Anybody else ever hear of "low noon"?
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:09 PM
Padeye Padeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary
The time or point in the sun's path at which the sun is on the local meridian. Also called noontide, noontime
It's a redundancy to emphasise the sun being overhead which is already implied by the word noon. Just one step removed from the PIN number you use in the ATM machine.
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:12 PM
ParentalAdvisory ParentalAdvisory is offline
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Who would actually ask that? Who doesn't understand what 12:00 noon means?
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  #4  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:14 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is offline
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Well, there's the usual bit of confusion when people try to refer to noon as either 12 a.m. or 12 p.m., when it can't be either; actually referring to it as noon ought to make it simpler....
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:16 PM
Philster Philster is offline
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Before use of watches and clocks was common, noon could have been mid-day...a range of 1-3 hrs. High noon narrows it down.
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:22 PM
Ace309 Ace309 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarie537
I work for a property management company. Someone called to make an appointment for a showing, and our leasing agent said she could be there at 12:00 noon.

Caller: Is that high noon or low noon?

Leasing Agent: What? High noon or low noon? I meant 12:00 - noon.

C: Well, is that high noon or low noon?

LA: The middle of the day. 12:00 PM - just noon.

C: OK.

We've been confused ever since. Anybody else ever hear of "low noon"?
Methinks you've been had by one of those people who also answers a cashier's inquiry of "Did you find everything?" with "I couldn't find any of those big bags of money."
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:28 PM
Padeye Padeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethilrist
people try to refer to noon as either 12 a.m. or 12 p.m., when it can't be either.
People are often confused by 12 AM/PM but I am confused by your statment that it "can't be either." Noon by clock is specifically 12PM. Midnight is 12AM. If you meant to say it "can be either" this would also be incorrect.
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  #8  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:32 PM
Metacom Metacom is offline
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Maybe he ment "can't be neither", which would technically be correct?
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  #9  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:36 PM
VunderBob VunderBob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace309
Methinks you've been had by one of those people who also answers a cashier's inquiry of "Did you find everything?" with "I couldn't find any of those big bags of money."
My answer to that is, "No. I couldn't find any childhood innocence or youthful idealism"
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  #10  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:37 PM
Who_me? Who_me? is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padeye
People are often confused by 12 AM/PM but I am confused by your statment that it "can't be either." Noon by clock is specifically 12PM. Midnight is 12AM. If you meant to say it "can be either" this would also be incorrect.
Actually, I believe you are wrong. Noon and midnight are neither AM nor PM.

Yup, here's a cite to back that up.

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/noon.htm
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  #11  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:43 PM
Padeye Padeye is offline
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I realize that 12:00 is nether before or after the meridian but it has always been my understanding that the 12PM convention is used for noon.
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:01 PM
heywalt heywalt is offline
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I'm going to take a WAG, but I'm thinking that the caller was meaning that as something of a joke. I've never heard of a 'low noon' per se, though you could assume there was one since there's a 'high noon'. It sounds like the caller was trying to be funny, but then they were taken seriously and so they kept asking.
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:24 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who_me?
Actually, I believe you are wrong. Noon and midnight are neither AM nor PM.

Yup, here's a cite to back that up.

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/noon.htm
Appeal to authority doesn't work for usage. In common usage 12 p.m. is noon and 12 a.m. is midnight. It's ridiculous to keep saying that this is wrong.
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:29 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heywalt
I'm going to take a WAG, but I'm thinking that the caller was meaning that as something of a joke. I've never heard of a 'low noon' per se, though you could assume there was one since there's a 'high noon'. It sounds like the caller was trying to be funny, but then they were taken seriously and so they kept asking.
I concur. This sounds exactly like something my dad would say. When drunk.

They probably expected the employee to say something like "High noon, sir. I'll bring my revolver."
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:29 PM
kunilou kunilou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarie537
Caller: Is that high noon or low noon?

Leasing Agent: What? High noon or low noon? I meant 12:00 - noon.

C: Well, is that high noon or low noon?

LA: The middle of the day. 12:00 PM - just noon.

C: OK.
Maybe the caller was trying to figure out whether to round up some deputies to help capture Frank Miller and his gang.
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:36 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Yes, noon is 12:00 PM. The minute after noon is 12:01 PM, no question about ante or post meridiem there, so why wouldn't the minute before 12:01 PM be 12:00 PM?

"High noon" is a literary term, inspired by the sun being at its highest then, not a scientific term. Relax.
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  #17  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:37 PM
Scarlett67 Scarlett67 is offline
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Another vote for "the customer was being a jackass."

I encountered one of these when riding along with a musician friend to a gig. We had some trouble finding the right building, and when we thought we had the right one, I hopped out of the car to go see. The place was locked up, so I knocked and this guy came to the door. I said, "Hi, I'm here with Friend who's playing here tonight. Are we at the right place?" He says something like, "Well, are any of us in the right place?" I gave a small chuckle and said something like, "yeah, well, is this where we should be?" "Who really knows where they SHOULD be?"

I wanted to strangle the guy, but I had to be nice because I was "representing" my friend. Look, buddy, we just want to know if we can park the car and unload our stuff. Time's a-wasting. After a few more rounds of this nonsense I finally ascertained that yes, this was the place.

I run into this type of jerk far too often. Yes, hardy har har, you made your lame joke. Now can we conduct our business?
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  #18  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:42 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou
Maybe the caller was trying to figure out whether to round up some deputies to help capture Frank Miller and his gang.
Or lie a coward, a craven coward, or lie a coward in his grave?
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  #19  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:44 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is offline
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I did, in fact, mean that "p.m." means post-meridian, "a.m." means "ante-meridian", and noon IS the meridian, so it can't be either.

I have heard very heartfelt explanations for it being both, however (the above example of "12:01 is pm, so 12:00 is, too..." being countered by "the clock goes from 1:00 to 12:59; 1 in the morning is obviously a.m., so 12:59 (eleven hours and 59 minutes later) is, too; noon, being within that time span, is obviously a.m.).

I just use "12 noon." Or noon.

And don't even get me started on "next Saturday..."
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  #20  
Old 08-11-2005, 01:48 PM
Hoodoo Ulove Hoodoo Ulove is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves
Yes, noon is 12:00 PM. The minute after noon is 12:01 PM, no question about ante or post meridiem there, so why wouldn't the minute before 12:01 PM be 12:00 PM?
Per common usage, you're right. However, "noon" does not refer to the minute before 12:01, but to that infinitesimal moment between morning and afternoon. It is neither ante or post meridiem.
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  #21  
Old 08-11-2005, 03:41 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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ElvisL1ves:
Quote:
Yes, noon is 12:00 PM. The minute after noon is 12:01 PM, no question about ante or post meridiem there, so why wouldn't the minute before 12:01 PM be 12:00 PM?
The minute before noon is 11:59 AM. It makes damn little sense for the "M" to change between 11:59 and 12:00 when you think about it. Would make far more sense to have it change between 12:59 and 1:00, wouldn't it?

Then again, we're working with a system of two periods of 12 hours each, each divided into 60 and those subdivided into 60 again. [Holy drams and furlongs, Batman!] A situation with historical explanations, I'll grant, but it still makes no sense, so appeal to the sensible isn't going to fly here.
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2005, 03:47 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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ElvisL1ves:
Quote:
Yes, noon is 12:00 PM. The minute after noon is 12:01 PM, no question about ante or post meridiem there, so why wouldn't the minute before 12:01 PM be 12:00 PM?
The minute before noon is 11:59 AM. It makes damn little sense for the "M" to change between 11:59 and 12:00 when you think about it. Would make far more sense to have it change between 12:59 and 1:00, wouldn't it?

Then again, we're working with a system of two periods of 12 hours each, each divided into 60 and those subdivided into 60 again. [Holy drams and furlongs, Batman!] A situation with historical explanations, I'll grant, but it still makes no sense, so appeal to the sensible isn't going to fly here.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-2005, 07:41 PM
Bill Door Bill Door is offline
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Was the caller from Indiana? Indiana has parts on Central time, and parts on Eastern time. Some of the parts on Eastern time use daylight savings, and some don't. The same for the parts on Central time. You need an atomic clock, a GPS locator, and a sextant to figure out what the hell time it is in Indiana.

The natives call it fast time or slow time, so an 11:00 am appointment is usually followed by the question "Is that fast time or slow time?". Maybe high noon and low noon are local variants.
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  #24  
Old 08-11-2005, 07:48 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Long ago, there was a movie parody in Mad magazine titled "Hah! Noon". (Imagine Hah! uttered with a Yiddish inflection to get the humor of it. The editors of Mad seemed to assume that all their readers were conversant in Yiddish.)

It showed their parody of Gary Cooper ready to shoot Killer Diller Miller when he arrived on the high noon train. The clock portentously goes "Bong 12 times." But no Miller. Gary Cooper is puzzled. Then someone shouts, "Killer Diller Miller missed the high noon train! He's a-comin' on the low noon train!" That turned out to be a single "bong" from the clock at 12:05.

So I guess there's your answer.
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  #25  
Old 08-11-2005, 08:24 PM
rfgdxm rfgdxm is offline
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One note here. Technically, "high noon" is when the sun locally is at its zenith. Because of standardized time zones, made even more complicated by Daylight Saving Time in some places, civil noon likely is different from high noon. And in the cases of DST being involved, often by more than an hour.
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  #26  
Old 08-11-2005, 08:25 PM
Bytegeist Bytegeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
(... The editors of Mad seemed to assume that all their readers were conversant in Yiddish.)
Well, that is where I learned most of my Yiddish.
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  #27  
Old 08-11-2005, 11:56 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Define "fershlugginer." (Or is that a made-up pseudo-Yiddish word?)
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:05 AM
Hilarity N. Suze Hilarity N. Suze is offline
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/highjack#1]
Fershlugginer! Yay! Potzrebi (I bet I misspelled it again)

/highjack#2]

Did anyone else ever really want to edit a certain song that starts out, "I hate to see, the evening sun go down...." But I would hate even worse to see the morning sun go down.

PS I think low noon happens around the end of December.
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  #29  
Old 08-12-2005, 01:51 AM
ouryL ouryL is offline
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Ain't low noon around 3?
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2005, 08:46 AM
El Zagna El Zagna is offline
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Those who insist that noon is neither AM or PM are most likely the same ones that waited for 2001 to celebrate the new milenium.

Technicalities aside, by convention, noon is 12:00 PM. If you don't believe me check out any digital clock. 12:00 PM is noon, 12:00 AM is midnight.

Those who insist otherwise deserve to find themselves sitting all alone at midnight in a closed restaurant wondering where everybody else is for the 12:00 PM get together.
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  #31  
Old 08-12-2005, 09:02 AM
BarnOwl BarnOwl is offline
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"It's high noon in New York and time for <fill in the blank if you don't mind dating yourself>."
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  #32  
Old 08-12-2005, 09:30 AM
Who_me? Who_me? is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Zagna
Those who insist that noon is neither AM or PM are most likely the same ones that waited for 2001 to celebrate the new milenium.

Technicalities aside, by convention, noon is 12:00 PM. If you don't believe me check out any digital clock. 12:00 PM is noon, 12:00 AM is midnight.

Those who insist otherwise deserve to find themselves sitting all alone at midnight in a closed restaurant wondering where everybody else is for the 12:00 PM get together.

You guys can use whatever convention you like, but when you tell me to meet you at 12:00 PM... I'll be asking you noon or midnight.

And for your information, the new millenium started on Jan. 1, 2001.
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  #33  
Old 08-12-2005, 09:41 AM
OxyMoron OxyMoron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who_me?
You guys can use whatever convention you like, but when you tell me to meet you at 12:00 PM... I'll be asking you noon or midnight.

And for your information, the new millenium started on Jan. 1, 2001.
Ah, the triumph of precision over accuracy, and literal-mindedness over communication.

When dealing with any language, the only equation one must ever have in mind is that language/=math. Just as "I ain't got nobody" emphatically does not mean that in fact, the poor soul actually has someone, "12 p.m." means noon, and 12 a.m. means midnight, regardless of any astronomical realities. And the millenium started on January 1, 2000, because only pedants care that there was no Year 0. Languages are democracies in which the majority interpretation wins, regardless (or even irregardless) of the precious concerns of pointy-headed minorities.
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  #34  
Old 08-12-2005, 10:38 AM
El Zagna El Zagna is offline
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Originally Posted by Who_me?
And for your information, the new millenium started on Jan. 1, 2001.
Yes, we know, we know. We all know.
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  #35  
Old 08-12-2005, 10:46 AM
Jinx Jinx is offline
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FYI: Time in the New York Times...

My Dad says the New York Times once used to state "12m" as 12 meridian since 12:00:00 is neither ante nor post meridian. However, this caused even more confusion. Hence, we say 12am or 12pm, and we understand which half of the 24 hour day we mean, thank goodness. I say, we should go to military time, but then I hear the Army reads a clock (verbally) as "something hundred hours" vs. the Navy which simply says "something hundred"! Sheesh!

Just wait until the new Daylight Savings law kicks in...oh, what a jolly mess we'll have then!

Soes anyone really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?
- Jinx
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  #36  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:06 PM
Colibri Colibri is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
I say, we should go to military time, but then I hear the Army reads a clock (verbally) as "something hundred hours" vs. the Navy which simply says "something hundred"! Sheesh!
Well, then, is midnight 0000 hours or 2400 hours?
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  #37  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:07 PM
butler1850 butler1850 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who_me?
You guys can use whatever convention you like, but when you tell me to meet you at 12:00 PM... I'll be asking you noon or midnight.

And for your information, the new millenium started on Jan. 1, 2001.
If you're meeting me, you'll get no confirmation, and you'll be expected to figure it out.

Since 1 minute past noon is 12:01PM, I take it you have enough sense to figure out what I meant. If you can't, then I likely didn't care to meet with you anyway!

-Butler
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  #38  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:10 PM
rfgdxm rfgdxm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Zagna
Those who insist that noon is neither AM or PM are most likely the same ones that waited for 2001 to celebrate the new milenium.

Technicalities aside, by convention, noon is 12:00 PM. If you don't believe me check out any digital clock. 12:00 PM is noon, 12:00 AM is midnight.

Those who insist otherwise deserve to find themselves sitting all alone at midnight in a closed restaurant wondering where everybody else is for the 12:00 PM get together.
Just use the 24 hour convention for measuring time. My computer is set up to do just that. Midnight is 0000 hours, and noon 1200 hours.
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  #39  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:17 PM
rfgdxm rfgdxm is offline
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Originally Posted by Colibri
Well, then, is midnight 0000 hours or 2400 hours?
The military uses standard time notation. Properly midnight is 0000 hours. 2400 hours is slightly irregular. It is only used to indicate "the end of the day". Thus an order "do this between 1800 and 2400 hours on Tuesday" means "get it done between 1800 hours and the end of the day Tuesday." This is more concise than the order "do this between 1800 hours Tuesday and 0000 hours Wednesday". Same idea in less words. Do you run Windows? On my box, 2359 is immediately followed (correctly) by 0000 hours.
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  #40  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:23 PM
tdn tdn is offline
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There is a restaurant on Cape Cod that is open from 11:00 AM until 12:00 PM. We usually go there after hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
Just wait until the new Daylight Savings law kicks in...oh, what a jolly mess we'll have then!
What new law?
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  #41  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:23 PM
rfgdxm rfgdxm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
My Dad says the New York Times once used to state "12m" as 12 meridian since 12:00:00 is neither ante nor post meridian. However, this caused even more confusion. Hence, we say 12am or 12pm, and we understand which half of the 24 hour day we mean, thank goodness. I say, we should go to military time, but then I hear the Army reads a clock (verbally) as "something hundred hours" vs. the Navy which simply says "something hundred"! Sheesh!- Jinx
No, no, no. The military (which uses internation standard time notation) has no concept of AM or PM. Look at 1200 hours, which is noon. That can be read "one two zero zero hours", "one thousand two hundred hours", or "twelve hundred hours". "Twelve hundred hours" is shorter to say, and for that reason is used.
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  #42  
Old 08-12-2005, 02:09 PM
awldune awldune is offline
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To continue the military time hijack, how do you pronounce 0000? Is it "zero hundred hours"?
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  #43  
Old 08-12-2005, 03:35 PM
Gary "Wombat" Robson Gary "Wombat" Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butler1850
If you're meeting me, you'll get no confirmation, and you'll be expected to figure it out.
See, butler1850, you're just being ornery. If I want somebody to meet me at a particular time, I'm not going to get pedantic about "common usage" or what's "scientifically correct." I'm going to provide the least ambiguous information I can.

Saying 12:00pm may be acceptable common convention for "noon," but a lot of people don't know or can't remember that. The word "noon" is so clear and unambiguous that there's no possibility of error. Why not use it?
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  #44  
Old 08-12-2005, 03:48 PM
robardin robardin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarie537
I work for a property management company. Someone called to make an appointment for a showing, and our leasing agent said she could be there at 12:00 noon.

Caller: Is that high noon or low noon?
Leasing Agent: What? High noon or low noon?
[...]

We've been confused ever since. Anybody else ever hear of "low noon"?
As Foghorn Leghorn would say: It's a joke, son, you missed it! I keep pitchin' 'em, and you keep missin' em! You're built too low, the fast ones go over your head! Pay attention when I'm talkin' to you, son. Now what's going on in that little round head?
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  #45  
Old 08-12-2005, 04:18 PM
Tio Gringo Tio Gringo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awldune
To continue the military time hijack, how do you pronounce 0000? Is it "zero hundred hours"?

When I was in the Army, it was refered to as either "zero hundred hours," or simply, "zero hour."
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  #46  
Old 08-12-2005, 06:47 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
See, butler1850, you're just being ornery. If I want somebody to meet me at a particular time, I'm not going to get pedantic about "common usage" or what's "scientifically correct." I'm going to provide the least ambiguous information I can.

Saying 12:00pm may be acceptable common convention for "noon," but a lot of people don't know or can't remember that. The word "noon" is so clear and unambiguous that there's no possibility of error. Why not use it?
I wonder who's being ornery. I have never in my real life interacted with a person with whom I had to discuss scheduling of some kind who expressed confusion concerning the meaning of "12 p.m."
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  #47  
Old 08-12-2005, 07:14 PM
rfgdxm rfgdxm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilAsh
When I was in the Army, it was refered to as either "zero hundred hours," or simply, "zero hour."
This has been my experience with military folks. Note that "hundred" often is used only to denote "on the hour". Thus I'd expect if a military person wanted to meet with me at 9:00 PM, she'd say "meet me at 21 hundred". However, if the meeting time was 9:15 PM, this likely would be said "meet me at twenty one fifteen." Because the context obviously would be a time of day, the "hundred" is superfluous. A civilian parallel would be "meet me at 9 o'clock sharp tonight."

Note also that it written form the colon is omitted by standard. Thus if this woman were to state the time of the meeting to me in e-mail, "meet me at 2100 today" would be the expected form. Also, before 10:00 AM time is usually expressed writing with a lead zero. Thus if this military woman wanted me to meet with her at 9:00 AM, "meet me at 0900 tomorrow" would be expected more than "meet me at 900 tomorrow." The 4 digit notation is used to make it obvious that the number is a time of day.

The military isn't the only entity that uses 24 hour notation. In many parts of the world it is standard, particularly in print form. I wouldn't find a French language TV schedule listing programs after noon as starting at 1300, etc. odd.
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  #48  
Old 08-12-2005, 07:18 PM
rfgdxm rfgdxm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
See, butler1850, you're just being ornery. If I want somebody to meet me at a particular time, I'm not going to get pedantic about "common usage" or what's "scientifically correct." I'm going to provide the least ambiguous information I can.

Saying 12:00pm may be acceptable common convention for "noon," but a lot of people don't know or can't remember that. The word "noon" is so clear and unambiguous that there's no possibility of error. Why not use it?
In oral conversation "noon" is also shorter than "twelve hundred hours". Hence why in the military "zero hour" is often used as mentioned before instead of "zero hundred hours." 2 less syllables to utter.
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Old 08-12-2005, 11:56 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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In Italy everyone uses the 24-hour clock. They don't even need to say the equivalent of "o'clock," they just say the number preceded by the feminine plural article. So to say "It's eleven o'clock" in Italy, you say Sono le undici, literally 'they are the eleven'. To say 'It's twelve noon," they say Sono le dodici (they are the twelve), and to say "It's one o'clock PM", they just say [i]Sono le tredici[i] (they are the thirteen). No AM, no PM, no military, no o'clock. Just the plain numbers up to 23 is enough for Italians.
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  #50  
Old 08-13-2005, 01:40 AM
Sunspace Sunspace is online now
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I write 13:00 (and sometimes say, thirteen o'clock). But that's just me.





It's when I hit 25:00 that you should start worrying...
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