Learning a Lesson?

[Sassy]

I don’t know why this pisses her off, must be a PMS thing.

[bold]I DON’T UNDERSTAND![/bold] Why would anyone continue to do something that they are clearly aware will be perceived badly? Why would anyone keep doing something that doesn’t work? In my experience, it’s more often men who do this sort of thing – and I want to sent a search party to find their clue. “My girlfriend’s gonna yell… she hates it when I come home late.” So – you either need a girlfriend who likes the things you like (staying out late) or you need to go home. “My wife is always yelling at me to put my stuff in the hamper.” You can see how to stop the yelling?

What I think most men don’t clearly understand is that it’s not the relative importance of the issue (the original quote concerned changing toilet paper, or more accurately, failing to do so), it’s the disrespect I know I perceive when someone persists in doing something they know I find irritating. The first time or two it’s no big deal. After I’ve made the effort to say something and to clarify what I would prefer, to ignore or forget my preferences seems malicious. Maybe I am over-sensitive – but I would bet I am not alone!


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The reason gentlemen prefer blondes is that there are not enough redheads to go around.

[Jophiel]

Hooo boy! Here we go, I get to be a typical male here for a few and explain some things. Hold on, let me scratch myself first..

There we go. So, anyway, the big reason why men don't change for small things is because... well, they're small things. If they were earth shattering things, we'd probably change for them. For instance, clothes in the hamper. Big deal.. you round 'em up on laundry day and go wash them. Now, if we were an item and you were to say "Hey, I want you to quit smoking" that'd be something to consider as it's a bigger deal. But guys really don't see much need to get up the enthusiasm to change for the little stuff that doesn't matter much.

Now, so you say "well, if it's a little thing and it matters to me, why can't you respect my wishes and just throw the damn clothes in the hamper, you lumbering troglodyte?" Because, that's the first step down the slippery path to becoming a hollow shell of a man, whipped by his feminine oppressors. Sure, it starts with "I must show her respect by placing my dirty unmentionables in the hamper" and before you know it, I've got you yelling at me to cap the toothpaste, rinse the soap and replace the toilet paper on the roll, all in the name of respect. To hell with that. It's so much easier to say "get over it, you insane bundle of PMS" and keep my manliness intact. For additional ammunition, I can say "Good sweet Jehovah, woman.. I went to the freakin' opera with you! Now you say I don't care about you because the toothpaste is uncapped?" Damn insane women with their petty demands.

Wow.. that felt great. Don't ever tell my girlfriend I typed it though

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[ChrisCTP]

How very cute, Jophiel.

No, Sassy, you are most certainly not alone. I can no longer allow myself to publicly go into details, because my husband is incapable of understanding logic AND humour, but I will meekly stand to the side and think "ain't it the truth".

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Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[Xgemina]

To be honest women are guilty of it to, maybe its some silly human thing.

Now, (before you blow up at me) I happen to be a trained male, I know bathroom etiquette, pick up my clothes, etc.. (I cook and clean too)

I don't know why ppl do it, maybe it's the saying "Don't sweat the small stuff."

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"Nuts!"
Gen A.C. McAuliffe
"The general's nuts."
unknown 101st AB grunt

[Fretful Porpentine]

We care about this stuff because we spent our whole childhood getting yelled at for little things while our brothers got to eat like pigs and wear whatever the hell they wanted to. REVENGE IS SWEET!

Actually, I have *never* gotten mad at a guy for doing any of the things Mr. Zambezi mentioned (hell, I do most of 'em myself), BUT I agree with Sassy that it's rude and disrespectful to keep doing something your significant other can't stand. My own pet peeve is sexist / ethnic / generally derogatory jokes. (For some reason, most guys seem to think this is good clean fun.) I've reached the point -- after much hard experience -- where I'll tell a guy ONCE that I don't want to hear this crap. Second time, he gets dumped. If I'd started following this rule when I started dating, it would have saved me a hell of a lot of heartache. I've come to see that if they don't respect you in small matters, they don't respect you at ALL.

[Lew]

Wow!! Do you folks really think this can be divided down gender lines?
FTR: I am female. I am a slob. (largely as a result of a 1st marriage to an absolute tyranical, power freak who used housekeeping as a tool...but I'm ok, now )
Now older, and much wiser, I am married to a wonderful man who shares these tasks. Issues like social, family, health should be sorted out b/4 lasting commitment...so I'll leave those alone.
Working out individual idiocyncracies and differences is what makes relationships work or not. COMPROMISE is what you have to do. One person cannot expect the other to do all the changing. BTW, the person that usually asks for the most changes is typically the one with the most rules. In any case, you both have to give and take. One agrees to put clothes in hamper and pick up clutter, the other agrees to lighten up a little, and maybe even starts to leave the cap off the toothpaste. (You would be surprised how much stress you can get rid of just by doing away with so many little rules.) It's a little like raising a child. You pick your fights. If all you do is nag and say no...the child tunes you out and rebels at everything.
It's all just a matter of being human...I don't think men or women have a market on any of these complaints.

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Lew
"Man, the 60's must have been real good for you!"
George Carlin..."Outrageous Fortune"

"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore"
Dorothy..."The Wizard of Oz"

[Lew]

BTW Jophiel...I'm not sure what this says about me...but I agree with your post and feel the same way. Problem is, I'm a woman.. You say:

a hollow shell of a man, whipped by his feminine oppressors.

I say: a submissive woman, over powered by her troglydite male opressors.
We say: folks fighting for there right to be themselves.

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Sassy]

My Question: Why the hell do women care about all of this stuff? I really can't fathom it.

I know why I care -- because I know that if anyone comes into my house and sees a mess, they are not going to say "my goodness, the equal balance of chores here isn't working very well. These people must be busy, or else they care less about the elements of neatness than I." It would be nice if it worked that way, but it doesn't - and I still respond to peer pressure in this regard. Since I am seen as having all the responsibility, I think that any assistance I request should be taken seriously. Yes, people perceive mess differently - but women are the ones who take the heat if we don't live up to the standards of our community in that regard. I would guess the opposing view would be that men are "responsible" for yard-work, whether they are interested or not -- but I don't have a yard!

It's the same sort of weirdness which responds to the fact that a man dresses badly by wondering why his wife/girlfriend/whatever let him leave the house that way. I've heard it too often -- and no one ever asks why a full grown adult should be dressed by someone else! BTW, my man dresses very well and has never needed me to assist... but I would be I get the (mental) credit when he shows up somewhere looking good. On the other hand, if I left the house in fuschia and tangerine, no one would think he was liable in any way! (not that he would allow it...)

I do agree - and believe I stated - that the trivializing of requests can be a quirk of either sex ... but most of my experience has been with men.

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The reason gentlemen prefer blondes is that there are not enough redheads to go around.

[Lew]

Boy, Sassy, I don't know who your circle of friends are, but they sure seem critical of your life. I guess the only answer is to continue to fight with your honey and be unhappy with the situation.

[Sassy]

Actually, I consider myself one of the lucky few whose relationship rarely encounters this problem... my post originated from frustration at listening to others make the sort of comment I quoted in my OP.

On the other hand, you are right that I let other peoples opinion affect me too much - I wish I knew how to control that reaction! I am working on it, since I know it's crazy to live my life by other people's standard.

[Jophiel]

You know, I forgot to mention this before mainly because my previous post was me having fun while I raised points. But, now I just want to gripe for a minute.

"Because I have asked you to [fill in blank] and yet you haven't, you do not respect me."

Excuse me? I got into this a little with my girlfriend the other week, and she used about the exact same line. Here's my advice: learn to pick a better fight for respect.

I love Candace (my girlfriend). I have changed my life completely for her. I have resigned a large portion of my income to my life with her. I stayed awake in the hospital for over 48 hours when our baby was born so she could rest. I do not flirt with other women, I do not act abusive to her, I make an honest attempt to make her happy, I'm even willing to watch Titanic with her, for heaven's sake. Now, granted, she also treats me well and I'm not trying to pat my own back here, but when she says something along the lines of "If you respected me, you'd put the clothes in the hamper", my first thought it "Well, if not putting the clothes in hamper means I don't respect you, why in the hell am I not out drinking and picking up loose women right now since I don't give a shit about you anyway?" If everything I do to try to make her happy and make a relationship work is suddenly invalidated by a damn pair of socks on the floor, what's the point?

My point is, if you're looking for respect, look at the big picture. The little things aren't worth getting into a huff about - at least not to the point of declaring them a sign of disrespect.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[Lew]

Sassy...good for you, you are one of the fortunate ones (as am I) We all have our own endearing qualities to work out. My own personal favorite is my tendency to long posts. I'm sure it drives some of you nuts, but, imagine how my husband and sons feel?

Jophiel...what can I say? You're a gem. but I already suspected that.


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Lew
"Man, the 60's must have been real good for you!"
George Carlin..."Outrageous Fortune"

"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore"
Dorothy..."The Wizard of Oz"

[Byzantine]

All I can say is I am very happy that I live alone. I'm not knocking anyone but man, it seems like such a headache to merge two lives together. I don't think I could do it. I like my things were they are and the level of clean/dirty goes up and down around here like the stock market. Sometimes I'm into keeping everything just so and other times I couldn't care less. I always thought (besides chores) the big thing in relationships was money.

[tomndebb]

You know, I don't think the "respect" thing is gender-related and I don't think the "neatness" thing is gender-related. I do think the "I have to make an issue of this." is gender-related.

My wife and I are both tolerant of about the same amount of messiness. (I suspect that couples do better when they are closer in this regards, anyway.) Now, different things bother us. She thinks I let bills and newspapers pile up next to my reading chair for far too long, she thinks I put off repairs on the car or lawn mower too long, and she thinks I let the garage get too messy before I do something about it. I know this because I hear from her on these issues quite frequently. On the other hand, I find that she leaves the toilet lid up (I put down the seat and the lid to keep the dog out of it), that she doesn't take the time to get the tableware clean (I hand wash each item, she swishes the lot once through the water), that she doesn't put caps on straight for the toothpaste (or the peanut butter, the pickles, or anything else that should be closed), and that she has several other habits that I find irritating. The difference? I know what her habits are and I live with them. Since I do 90% of the dishes (I like them clean), 95% of the vacuuming, 60% of the laundry, 40-50% of the cooking, etc. I figure she can live with my faults just as I live with hers.

As long as she is willing to "remind" me of my "failings" while not making it a "respect" issue, we get along fine.

I did work with a guy who started in at lunch about once a month with the "I don't understand why she keeps getting mad when I {name-your-deed}." The general reaction at the lunch table was that anyone who continued to do the same thing every month or week that irritated his spouse, knowing that she would get mad, was pretty much of an idiot.

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Tom~

[matt_mcl]

I dunno about marriages, but my dad is much pickier than my mom when it comes to me.

[TheNextStep]

Why isn't the other side of the argument being looked at here? If you can say that I do not respect you because I like to go out, can I say that you don't respect me by wanting to keep me from doing things that I enjoy?

My GF and I have a great relationship but one bone of contention that springs up from time to time is that every two or three weeks, I like to get together with some of my friends and barbecue. She is always invited. There are men and women there, so it isn't like it is just "the boys" hanging out. Usually she is cool with it but sometimes I feel an icy draft blowing in from her general direction and know what will be waiting for me tomorrow.

Should I say, "Okay, honey-pookie-snookums, I'll stay home" and simply feel content that I have done the noble and right thing by showing my lady respect? Should I say, "Hey, it isn't like I go out every night and it isn't like we're going cruising for chicks. You are invited and if you don't want to go, I understand. If you do want to go, put your shoes on. Either way, I am going to go."?

[AuraSeer]

At my place, there's always a pile of mail, bills, magazines, etc. on the kitchen table. Every so often, my GF mentions that it's bothering her, and I sort through it and put everything where it "belongs". One time she asked me, "Why don't you clean it up when it gets too messy? Why do I always have to ask you to do it?"

My reponse was, "I do clean it up when it gets too messy. But my definition of a mess is much bigger than yours. Up until that point, I don't even notice it's there."

AFAIC, this illustrates one of the basic differences between male and female housekeeping.

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I'm not a warlock.
I'm a witch with a Y chromosome.

[topolino]

Mr Z opened his mouth:

don't drink, don't smoke, don't go out, keep the house clean, put down the seat, cap the
toothpaste, don't drive so fast, those clothes don't go together, eat slower, white
neater.....and so on.

And, as always, I have to disagree

Don't drink-well, I guess it depends on what you're like when you're drunk. Unless your driving or are a mean drunk, I don't see the problem here

Don't smoke-because it'll make you smell offensive to her? because she doesn't want you to get lung cancer? other than that, I don't know

Don't go out-Unless a) she needs your help or b) you all rarely have any time together, I don't see what the problem here is either

Keep the house clean-clutter is one thing but a grimey house attracts mice and bugs. They may be your little pets but, I can almost promise, she won't like them. She won't want them on her babies. As for clutter, some people, like my father, hate clutter. Other people, like my mother and myself, can live with it as long as it isn't so bad that we can't find anything

Put down the seat-Guess it depends on where you grew up. I grew up in a house where the seat is always down. There's nothing quite as yucky as sitting on the thin toilet rim which, in my experience of other people's toilets, is often growing some rare collections of funk and mold, and then falling into the toilet. Now, if your SO came from a household where the seat was always up, it would be hard to break that habit so one shouldn't get too nasty about it.

cap the toothpaste-just a pet peeve against having toothpaste oozing out of the tube? Not all women have this pet peeve.

don't drive too fast-well, let's see. You might kill someone, kill yourself, or wreck the car. If you kill someone or kill yourself, you'll either be dead or she'll be visiting you in jail. Either way you can't support a family very well so she'll either struggle standing by you or she'll have to leave you and, if she has a family, provide for them somehow. You may wreck the car or get a ticket causing financial difficulties and this would take money away from the family because of something that could have been prevented. If you wreck the car or get your license revoked, you can't drive which causes the family much hardship esp if she has to tote you every place you need to go.

Those clothes don't go together-Well, in my parents generation, it was seen as a failure on the woman's part because it showed that she could not dress her husband properly. Today, my only guess it that a) it's residue from our parents' generation or b) if you look too bad, your S.O. may be embarrassed.

eat slower-unless you tend to choke, I don't know

white neater-is that write neater? At least she still wants to read what you wrote

[Mr.Zambezi]

The question I have is why are women bothered by so many more things than men? If you ask most guys what their wives do that annoys them, they will have maybe one or two items. But as a woman about her husbands habits and you will get a laundry list.

don't drink, don't smoke, don't go out, keep the house clean, put down the seat, cap the toothpaste, don't drive so fast, those clothes don't go together, eat slower, white neater.....and so on.

My Question: Why the hell do women care about all of this stuff? I really can't fathom it.

[AuraSeer]

topolino wrote:

There's nothing quite as yucky as sitting on the thin toilet rim...

This is one complaint that makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it so difficult to look before you sit down?

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I'm not a warlock.
I'm a witch with a Y chromosome.

[Lynn Bodoni]

As someone who has to stumble to the throne at least once each time I sleep, I'm happy to be able to remember where it IS. Lots of times my eyes don't focus (legally blind without correction) and I have to go RIGHT NOW (diabetes) and I can't tell if the darn seat is up or down. Nor do I hover. So yeah, it is hard to tell whether it's up or down. Until I sit down.


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Lynn the Packrat

[Mr.Zambezi]

Oh, topolino, now I have to disagree with you.

My wife and I get along about as well as two people can. But as with every woman I have lived with, the females are much pickier than the males. My wife has many idiosyncracies that could be annoying if I chose to pay any attention to them (leaving 3 pairs of shoes in every room of the house, for one.)

I just think that the tendency for men is to shrug the shoulders and adapt to it where women are pretty sure that they have to CHANGE the man's behavior. And oddly, many of these behavior may be ones that they exhibit themselves.

On a related note, why do men tend to drink more? Most guys I know consider a fun night out to include some pool and moderate quantities of beer. This does not seem to be true of women.

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"Do that which consists in taking no action and order will prevail" --Lao Tzu

[ruadh]

OK Lynn, I can concede that someone who lives with a legally blind diabetic ought to put the seat down, but the other 99% of men in the world should be able to expect their housemates to look before sitting.

What about the guy who expects the seat to be up and winds up pissing all over it? Nobody talks about him

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Never regret what seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Alphagene]

I think the problem is epitomized in the topic title. "Learning a Lesson?" Ugh! You're my girlfriend not my obedience school instructor! The problem is the stereotypical female desire to change their man. Or at least to mold them into something they find acceptable.

I don't see how "putting the mail into a nice neat pile" equates genuine "respect". Sounds like a red herring to me.

Men also place importance on things that aren't a part of the "big picture." Hell, a woman who can perform oral sex without acting like it's a horrible tortuous burden every time is important to a good number of guys.

I look forward to many more years of non-marriage.

[Mr.Zambezi]

True, I have only met one woman who is right.

Of course, knowing who is "right" is tough because the debates we are discussing here are not usually brought up until the comitment is deep.

Really, who is going to say "I love this person deeply but they don't put the mail in a neat pile so I have to break it off."

I am afraid we just have to chalk it up to gender and general differences.

And I agree with Alphagene: who is anyone to be "teaching Lessons"? That was my parents' job.

[topolino]

This is one complaint that makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it so difficult to look
before you sit down?

Well, I'm not sure what my medical problem is (I've been checked for diabetes...and nothing) but I'll wake up in the middle of the night needing to pee urgently. It's not even like I drink alot before I go to bed. I make a mad dash for the bathroom. Have, in the past, fallen in.

Now, my bf puts both the seat and the lid down. This is fine because I KNOW that's how it's going to be when I have to pee at night so I can make a quick swift motion to lift the lid. I didn't even have to ask him to do this. It's how he was raised. When I asked him why he does it, he said it lets less germ out of the toilet when you flush. I have read that before also.

Mr Z, out of all the things you listed, I did say that I wasn't too sure about the capping of the toothpaste, eating slower, the clothes thing, and moderate drinking.

As for drinking, if you're driving, you're a mean drunk, or she'll have to clean up the puke, then I can understand. Otherwise, why you couldn't have a couple of beers, I don't know. If there aren't going to be bad consequences, she shouldn't stand in your way.

The other things are a matter of health, respect, or safety. If a guy drives too fast or drunk, he could kill someone or himself. I'd rather someone who cares so little for other people that they drive drunk or recklessly kill only themselves but, unfortunately, they often kill other people. Anyway, I covered this before.

If she needs his help with the children or the couple seldom gets to be together, blowing her off to go out with the boys would be rude. Now, if she's always going out and doesn't want him to, that's not fair to him. Ideally, they should take turns watching the kids or cleaning or whatever.

Some people are unnecessarily militant about a clean house. If you leave clutter around and they go ballistic, maybe that's not the person for you. Personally, I can deal with clutter and I even create a bunch. When it comes to dirt (not clutter, dirt), as I said, dirt can bring in the little critters. This is pretty damn unhealthy for her and especially for the kids. Now, granted, she should have known her guy enjoyed living in filth before she reproduced with him but, still, once kids are involved, filth is not acceptable. Little bits of dirt, over time, become filth if you don't clean up after yourself. She shouldn't have to clean up after him especially if she works outside of the home as much as him.

I think the basic thing is-if the guy do something that's going to kill someone or yourself, harm her or the children, shows a total lack of responibility or compassion, he's going to hear about it.

Now, if your woman drives fast or drunk or invites in the mice and bugs or abandons you when you need help, you have every right to be livid.

[Sassy]

I think the problem is epitomized in the topic title. "Learning a Lesson?" Ugh! You're my girlfriend not my obedience school instructor!

I have to apologize if the tone of my title gave that impression... it was not my intent. I was thinking of the people mentioned who don't seem to learn the lesson and insist on complaining about the reaction they get. Since at least one other person mentioned encountering that , I know I am not alone... and (as with anyone who keeps making the same mistake) it makes me crazy to listen.

I think my point is - if it bothers you enough that you are bothering other people about it, why are you in that relationship? In my mind, it falls into the same category as people (mostly women in this case) that date abusive or unavailable people and complain about how unhappy that behavior makes them. In both cases, I want to say - why are you there, why are you putting up with behavior that makes you crazy? For myself, I would not choose a relationship where any one element caused me enough grief that I felt I had to complain about it on a regular basis.

The "small things are not valid in determining respect" issue is something to which I would like to respond, but I am not sure I can make myself clear without resorting to cliche. For me, it's a matter of choice. If someone chooses me, to be involved with me, then they choose to give up other women and all those related "single" things - as do I. But when I request a change in some other aspect of life, I am then invading areas that have not been chosen for change... which makes it more important and also more likely to be a point of contention. I can see how it would feel - have felt that myself, when asked not to do things that I didn't think were included in the 'contract' of dating. I think the biggest point is that I don't think of these issues as bigger or smaller - they are all one, falling under "things that are involved in this relationship." Most of the men I've seen have not been able to see that -- for them there are big things and small things, and I should only complain if they fail in the big things. I don't see it that way, but I can't think of a good example right now.

In regard to the other side... being kept from doing something which (by all definitions) is innocent, I would say - RUN! It only gets worse, and it's the worst kind of control game. I divorced someone like that - when I realized that the more I gave up for him, the more he would ask me to give up. It's like belonging to a cult, and the only way out is a clean break. That "icy" behavior is called passive-aggressive and there's no way to beat it. They don't even have to admit they are doing it... it will suck the life out of you.


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The reason gentlemen prefer blondes is that there are not enough redheads to go around.

[Prairie Rose]

I agree with Lynn about the toilet seat issue. During my recent pregnancy, when I was getting up *constantly* to pee, falling in the toilet did not do wonders for making me nice to live with. (I could barely sleep the last month, so I really loathed any interruption of sleep, especially if it involved cold water!). And like Lynn, I am legally blind without correction.

Keeping the house clean is a respect issue. I'm the messy one in our home, and I think it's a subtle rebellion against living with a clean-nazi as a kid. Now I have to remind myself to pick up not because I think it's that important, but because it makes my husband happy, and I figure, why irritate him about this issue when there are more important things to fight about.

Men, if this is all it takes to please your woman, do it and be grateful, ok?

Prairie Rose



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If you're not part of the solution you're just scumming up the bottom of the beaker.

[Mr.Zambezi]

When you start dating you start setting ground rules immediately, whether you mean to or not. Rules like "I let you go hang out with the guys every Friday" or "I will not tolerate polygamy" or "I will throw a major fit if the dirty clothes aren't folded and sorted alphabetacally."

Generally we make a decision to follow the rules or not-- to stay or to leave. The problems arise when we tacitly accept rules and then try to change them later. Our partner feels slighted.

This goes both ways. I agreed to put the seat down when my wife and I started dating. . For some deep psychological reason, I became unable to do it after our wedding day. I changed the rules so she has a right to be mad. She started complaining about clothes on the floor when her house had been festooned with dirty clothes.

The rest of it she knew, so she has no right to complain. YOu accept the terms, you live with them.

THe "lesson" goes both ways. Why can't women learn that if they complain about something 10,000 times and the guy wont stop doing it that no amount of complaining is going to get him to change? If they could just see this, then they too would only worry about the big things--those things that are worth breaking up over.

[BoBettie]

Just my 2cents-
I used to be kind of weird about this stuff...Bugged my husband (who is a total neandrathal) all the time about picking up his dirty clothes, washing out glasses with milk on the bottom, etc. Then, a couple of months ago I saw him sprawled out on the road after being hit on his motorcycle. He was damned near killed, and now- amazingly- I don't give a flying *uck if he puts his dirty clothes right in the front yard for God and everyone to see- I'm just glad he's alive. I LIVE for "Don't sweat the small stuff" now.
Priorities....


Blatent disrespect is a totally different story- I just wouldn't be with someone who couldn't pick up the phone to call if they're running late or something. How rude can you be.

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

[topolino]

Then, a couple of months ago I saw him sprawled out on the road after being hit on his motorcycle. He was damned near killed, and now- amazingly- I don't give a flying *uck if he puts his dirty clothes right in the front yard for God and everyone to see-I'm just glad he's alive.

My point is that some of the things women bug men about is to AVOID such issues. Of course, I don't mean that your husband did anything that would cause him to get hit. Sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time regardless of how safety conscious you are. If you CAN do stuff to minimize the risk of tragedy, do it. Don't drive recklessly or too fast or drive drunk. I know that my dad tends to drive like a maniac and my mother's "Jay! Will you slow down!" is not only because she doesn't want to have to pay a speeding ticket but also because she doesn't fancy the idea of any of us being splattered across the highway due to his lead foot.

If the house is grimy and bugs and mice come in causing harm to the family's health, that could have been avoided too. It's hard enough to keep the flies, mosquitoes, and mice out without laying out a welcome mat, if you know what I mean.

Why invite suffering?

[Fretful Porpentine]

Mr. Z.,

I think you just haven't met the right women.

[VegForLife]

OK Lynn, I can concede that someone who lives with a legally blind diabetic ought to put the seat down, but the other 99% of men in the world should be able to expect their housemates to look before sitting.

After I met my wife, I realized that this debate is silly. If everybody puts the seat *and* the lid down, then everybody has to go through the same amount of work to use the commode. You get an added bonus if you have a dog.

Rich

[Shirley Ujest]

Rules of living together/Marriage.

1) Never do something once that you are not prepared to do for the rest of the relationship. (ie: taking out the garbage)

2)There is no such thing as 50-50 in a relationship. Sometimes its 40-60, 20-80, 70-30 or 90-10. (Last night I had a migraine so the moment my husband came home from work he became the Keeper of the Child, while I wallowed in self pity in my dark bedroom. But on Saturdays he is gone all day helping a friend completely gut and refurbish an old house and I'm left to my own devices. The pendulum swings both ways.)

3)Flat surfaces must be covered with papers.
(Once I grasped this, I found myself much happier.)

4) The hardest part about housekeeping is not the cleaning, it is the picking up of the stuff. The key to a more organized house is either throw out more stuff on a regular basis or huge cupboards and closets to shove stuff in when people show up out of the blue.

5) You can't have children and a clean house. Same goes for pets.

6)Review how often friends stop by or how often you entertain. Clean the night before. The sooner you start cleaning for the clambake, the quicker the house gets dirty.

7) Put a sign up on your doorway: Either the house looks good or I do. It can't be both. Pick one." After you have kids, you can add, " Either the house, the baby or the house looks good. It can't be all three. Pick one."

I cannot tell you how many times I go to a friends house, unannounced and the woman will apologize for the mess.Actually it happens every time I go to a friends house. All that is messy, really, are the countertops and the stack of Sundays newspapers. I have never heard the husband ever apologize for the mess. If someone pops by my house unannounced, I will never apologize for the mess 1) first they are lucky enough to catch me at home 2) YOU ARE UNANNOUNCED and therefore, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. THIS IS HOW WE LIVE AND IF FIND ME LACKING AS A HUMAN BEING BECAUSE I DON'T DUST DAILY, SCRUB THE BABY AND DOG VOMIT OFF THE CARPET MORE THOROUGHLY OR COOK A FIVE COURSE MEAL, YOU ARE KINDLY INVITED TO GO FRICK YOURSELF AND YOU ARE NO FRIEND OF MINE.


(PS, when we can afford it, we are replacing the carpet with wood to make the bodily fluids and food catastrophes easier for clean up. Anyone caring to donate to the Shirley Ujest Gets some Wood fund ....)

[Shirley Ujest]

Oh yeah,

People who put white carpet and or furniture in their houses and have kids should be sterlized and are begging for a grape juice accident.

I thank you.

[BoBettie]

Understood, but I've stopped that carping, too. My husband is 34 years old, and he is an adult. If he chooses to drive too fast (I'm talking about his car- he was not at fault in the motorcycle accident) or whatever- that's his choice. He's a big boy. He actually has pretty good judgement, and if I really think his judgement is in question, we talk things out and come to a comprimise. No amount of nagging is going to change anyones behavior (in my opinion). I truely think you have to decide what's important and talk about THOSE issues and leave the toilet paper/dirty clothes issues alone. Then again, my husband isn't out drinking all night, drunk driving or doing any other major irresponsible acts, so I don't really have to nag him.
My main point in my previous post was that it's the little things that in the end don't matter- and those are the very things that chip away at your love and respect for each other. I personally have chosen not to let those issues erode my marriage- dirty clothes and toilet paper be damned!
Just my opinion...

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

[BunnyGirl]

On a different thought, have you ever considered that the complaining about small things may be a sign that there are underlying issues that need to be addressed? I don't know if this was mentioned earlier in the thread. What I mean is, "I hate my job and don't feel like I have control over anything so I will complain about clothes on the floor". I'm not saying it's not a valid complaint just coming at it from a different angle, different idea.

[BoBettie]

Hello???? Did I miss something?? Let me try this again.
1- My husband does not actually drive like a maniac (I was using that as an example- a poor one I admit)
2- My point is, my husband was almost killed by another driver. The person was not speeding, he was not reckless, it was just an accident. File it under "shit happens".
3.- After this comment, I'm leaving this discussion because for the third time I'm making the same friggin' point that still is not understood
****Since I almost lost my husband, I no longer give a shit if the toilet paper is on right or if he throws dirty laundry around. I'm just glad he's here and we have an opportunity to enjoy each other******

That's all I'm saying here- nothing to do with reckless driving or whatever. I personally wouldn't be married to someone who had blatent disregard for myself or others. Maybe I'm just lucky. And, I agree wholeheartedly with BunnyGirl-

<<<<On a different thought, have you ever considered that the complaining about small things may be a sign that there are underlying issues that need to be addressed>>>
Oh, and Toplino- don't ever lecture me-
<<<<You should know this. You almost lost your husband.>>>>> Your post was rude and condescending. Try re-reading my posts- maybe you'll get my point. I couldn't have spelled it out any better.

[topolino]

If he chooses to drive too fast (I'm talking about his car- he was not at fault
in the motorcycle accident) or whatever- that's his choice.

Yes, but how happy will you be if he kills himself or someone else? If he kills someone else and you all get sued or he goes to jail and suddenly you're left with your kids, no money, and possibly no husband, will you not blame him? The kids aren't going to college. You'll be lucky if you can pay their medical bills not to mention your own. They possibly won't have a father or they may get to visit him in jail. Or what if you all are in the car with him and his reckless behavior causes a wreck and it kills your children? Or perhaps it kills both you and your husband and now your children have no parents.

I'm basically saying that people who drive like maniacs have no respect for other people. Now, I can understand having no respect for strangers. Most people are FAR too wrapped up in themselves to think about people they don't know. If you kill me, oh well, tough luck for my mom, dad, sister, boyfriend, and friends. Screw 'em, ay? It's the blatant disregard for your loved ones that I don't understand. When you run around acting recklessly, it's not only you and possibly some stranger who will suffer the consequences. Your family will too. You should know this. You almost lost your husband.

You know, if the motorcyclist was at fault, I would be the first to say you deserve compensation if you couldn't afford the medical bills that your husband's accident may have caused or if it had killed him and suddenly you're left alone with three kids who now have no father. Or would you prefer I say, hey, your husband didn't mean shit to me...tough luck for you and your kids?

Harping on him may not help but, then again, it gets my dad to slow down.

This also applies to women who drive like maniacs. Yes, I also realize that people make mistakes and that sometimes people break the speed limit and nothing goes wrong. I do know that there are people who chronically drive dangerously. They should not be allowed on the road. If they're not caught, however, hopefully someone will talk some sense into them before they kill themselves or someone else. If you never say anything and one day you're financially ruined or a member of your family is dead due to your husband's reckless driving, I don't have much sympathy for you. If he kills someone outside of your family, in my opinion, you might have prevented it and didn't and, therefore, I think you played a part in that person's death.

[Mr.Zambezi]

The problem is the definition of "driving like a maniac." FOr some this means that you don't slow to a stop at green lights just in case someone might be running the red. For others it may mean signaling 300 yards before a turn.

That's the problem...your maniac maybe be my safe driver.

[The Ryan]

Sassy
Member posted 08-15-1999 06:43 PM

“bold]I DON’T UNDERSTAND![/bold] Why would anyone continue to do something that they are clearly aware will be perceived badly?“

You mean you’ve never done anything knowing that people won’t like it? Are you a slave to peer pressure? Are you one those women that can’t leave the house without full make-up because you’re afraid you’d be “perceived badly” if you were seen without make-up? When trying to understand your S.O.’s attitude to your requests, here are some things to consider:


1. Is his inconvenience less than yours?
Think about the costs to him. Is it stressful for him to keep track of everything you do and don’t like? Is he having to give up something that’s important to him? Is all of that less important than you getting what you want?

2. Is it worth his while?
Are you contributing to the relationship as much as he is? Are you making him want to stay in the relationship? Are you making him feel appreciated?

3. Is it reasonable?
Are you asking him to give up control over his own life? Are you bothered because it harms you, or do you just not like the idea of your S.O. doing or not doing such-and-such? Are you making him feel “whipped”? Is it really any of you’re business

4. Are you asking to change his actions rather than his abilities?
Are you asking him to be funnier? More fashion conscious? More charming? More romantic? While he can choose to do more funny or charming or romantic things, his basic level of humor, charm, or romanticism is not something he has chosen. You said that “to ignore or forget my preferences seems malicious”. Hmm, my dictionary says that “malicious” means “desiring to cause injury”. How is forgetting something desiring to cause injury? If your S.O. is forgetful, that’s not something he chose. Not doing something because he forgot is completely different than intentionally not doing something just to annoy you. I think you’ve set your standards too high.

5. If you were in his place, would you go along?
Don’t ask your S.O. to do what you wouldn’t. Relationships should be mutual, not unilateral. If you don’t let other people dictate what you do, you shouldn’t dictate what other people do. And if you do let other people dictate what you do, you have bigger problems than an unsupportive S.O.

Ideally, the answer to all five of these questions should be “yes”. If some of the answers are “no”, you should reconsider your request. And if most of them are “no”, then you should drop the request.

Mr.Zambezi
Member posted 08-17-1999 10:04 AM

"On a related note, why do men tend to drink more? Most guys I know consider a fun night out to include some pool and moderate quantities of beer. This does not seem to be true of women."

Your guess is as good as mine, but since you asked for it, here’s mine: it’s probably because men have been socialized into thinking that going out drinking with “the guys” is something guys do. Also, men are socialized to avoid showing emotions, at least not while sober. Drinking allows them an excuse to do things that wouldn’t be acceptable while sober.


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-Ryan
" 'Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.' " -Kurt Vonnegut, Breakfast of Champions

[topolino]

Oh, and Toplino- don't ever lecture me-
Your post was rude and condescending. Try re-reading my posts- maybe you'll get my point. I couldn't have spelled it out any better.

I was responding to.

My husband is 34 years old, and he is an adult. If he chooses to drive too fast (I'm talking about his car- he was not at fault in the motorcycle accident) or whatever- that's his choice.

I've gone back and read your post. You seemed to say, and I still think you're saying, that he doesn't drive recklessly and you wouldn't say anything to him if he did.

My response directly addressed this. You don't like my response? Tough. If you say something like that in public, I'm going to tell you what I think of it. I don't like you response to me either but, hey, if I can't take it, I shouldn't have said something. Basically I said that your statements were irresponsible and lacked any long-term vision. You said my statements are rude. We both stand by our statements. So that's the way it is. Too bad for both of us.

[topolino]

The problem is the definition of "driving like a maniac." FOr some this means that you
don't slow to a stop at green lights just in case someone might be running the red. For others it may mean signaling 300 yards before a turn.

OK, how's this? My opinion of a "maniac driver" is someone who breaks the traffic laws, goes more than 15 mph over the speed limit on the highway, or more than 5 mph over the speed limit on residential streets. Basically, if you hit someone and it's going to be your fault (no fault doesn't count) and it wouldn't have happened had you followed the correct traffic laws, you were driving badly.

[Sassy]

The Ryan

You mean you’ve never done anything knowing that people won’t like it? Are you a slave to peer pressure?

I really have to phrase my comments more carefully! What I was complaining about and trying to understand is people who do something they know will cause them trouble and then complaining about that same trouble. Seems to me this is in the same realm as repeatedly putting your hand on a hot stove and then complaining because it continues to burn.

As I have also said, I don't personally have any complaints of this sort in regard to my own relationship. I would still like to respond to some of the statements...

1. Is his inconvenience less than yours?

That's a very vague question, and - unfortunately - one which relies on a value judgement. What may seem to me to be no big deal may seem very inconvenient to someone else. I tend to think in terms of to whom it's more important. I think that's one of the starting points for reasonable compromise. I don't ask anyone to keep track of "everything" I don't like. I do ask that they pay attention to the things I tell them are truly important. I also try to keep track of how many things I am defining that way... everything can't be #1. I have rarely asked someone to give up something that's truly important to them... I don't want a slave, I want a volunteer.

2. Is it worth his while?

I feel very strongly that both people have a responsibility to constantly work on the relationship. I don't want to be taken for granted and will work hard to make sure I don't do that to my partner. OTOH, I can't decide what is worth his while... he has to do that. I have asked, and hope that he is still complying, that he tell me if he feels I am not playing my part.

3. Is it reasonable?

Again, that's something that we all decide ourselves. I can make some judgements based on responses in the past, but I can never be sure until he tells me. If someone is being harmed, I will obviously make a huge fuss... but other than that, I always make the assumption that I am dealing with adults. Again, I want my partner to choose what he gives to me and to the relationship... but I also know that it's not fair to play the mind-reader game. I tell him what I would like and he decides what he will do. We are both old enough that we don't worry about "whipped" - that's really just a term men use to describe reacting to peer pressure, isn't it?

4. Are you asking to change his actions rather than his abilities?

I think that you are taking my original argument farther than I intended. I was talking about simple actions - cleaning up, being on time, small courtesies. I was once involved with a man who could never "remember" to introduce me to people. I explained it repeatedly, but he couldn't manage to remember -- and he could easily remember other things, things that suited him -- so I perceived it as a reflection of how important I was to him. I am no longer involved with him, and he is the loser! (that's an opinion, of course...) It's easy to say "I forgot" but it's also easy to see who is really forgetful and who is just lazy - or malicious. In this case, I think he made a choice to forget.

** There is no such thing as setting my standards too high. I deserve to be treated in the fashion that makes me feel treasured -- and so do you.

5. If you were in his place, would you go along?

This is where it gets messy. I am far too likely to give in and go along... and I am actually working on standing up for myself and my needs. Unfortunately, like too many women, I was trained to give whatever he wanted and to hope he would decide to return the favor. That's all well and good, but it's hard for anyone to give you something you haven't mentioned you want.

There! very verbose, and I could go on... but enough for now.

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The reason gentlemen prefer blondes is that there are not enough redheads to go around.