Getting knocked unconscious in the movies

[rippingtons_fan]

When someone gets knocked unconscious in the movies or in television shows, it seems that all it takes is a judo chop to the back of the neck or a punch in the jaw. Is that all it takes? (I don't want to beat up anyone, I'm just curious.)

[Bill Door]

It's harder to knock someone out than it looks in the movies, and it's even harder to knock them out harmlessly. I'm always stunned when in western movies someone is knocked unconscious by a pistol and then wakes up 45 minutes later no worse for wear.

If you hit someone hard enough with a three pound hunk of iron to keep them unconscious for that long they stand a good chance of never waking up, and having double vision, nausea, and dizziness for a few days if they do.

[pravnik]

Both are possible. A blow to the back of the head is extremely dangerous and can knock someone very quickly. That's why rabbit punches to the back of the head are illegal blows in boxing. A well placed hard shot to the jaw can also result in a knockout; boxers call this "hitting the button." If one's neck is whipped past a certain point by a hard punch to the brain impacts the cranial cavity and goes unconscious.

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by pravnik

If one's neck is whipped past a certain point by a hard punch to the brain impacts the cranial cavity and goes unconscious.

Ahem..."If one's neck is whipped past a certain point by a hard punch to the jaw, the brain impacts the cranial cavity and goes unconscious."

[Agonist]

I've always been curious about the "blow to the back of the neck" that's seen so often in action movies. I can see getting knocked unconscious if you're hit in the head, but what does the neck have to do with it? Is it supposed to be cutting off blood flow? Or maybe affect the nerves, ala Spock?

Is there any real life correlation to this Hollywood move? In other words, is there a way to knock someone unconscious without hitting them in the head?

[Khadaji]

When I was in college I was sparring (boxing) with a friend and he caught me square on the jaw with an upper cut. It did not knock me out, but sure rang my bells. A little harder and I think he would have knocked me out.

[CookingWithGas]

Spock could do it with just a squeeze.

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by Agonist

I've always been curious about the "blow to the back of the neck" that's seen so often in action movies. I can see getting knocked unconscious if you're hit in the head, but what does the neck have to do with it? Is it supposed to be cutting off blood flow? Or maybe affect the nerves, ala Spock?

Is there any real life correlation to this Hollywood move? In other words, is there a way to knock someone unconscious without hitting them in the head?

The blow to the back of the neck will knock somebody out if you hit the base of the skull in the process, but just plain strinking somebody in the back of the neck is something you do when you're trying to damage the spinal cord. It is possible to knock somebody out without hitting them in the head; for example, a hard, focused strike to the carotid artery on the side of the neck will disrupt bllod flow to the brain and knock an assailant out.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by pravnik

a hard, focused strike to the carotid artery on the side of the neck will disrupt bllod flow to the brain and knock an assailant out.

Cite? You're far more likely to crush the larynx and cause LOC by asphyxiation as to cause significant blockage in the carotid by transient compression.

Besides, even with the carotid clamped off, effects aren't so immediate. Unconsciousness isn't instant, the brain needs time to get hypoxic and low on glucose in the area that the carotid feeds.

Direct carotid massage more frequently causes vaso-vagal syncope, or a fainting response due to reflex drop in blood pressure. But one must massage the carotid sinus rather vigorously for a few seconds, and it doesn't work in all people, or all the time. I've only made a handful of patients even a bit light-headed by massaging their carotid sinuses (usually to break a heart arrhythmia) in my years of patient care.

Ignore what you see in movies about rendering someone unconscious with a quick blow. While a precise blow to the occiput (back of the head) is most likely to succeed, I'd say that over 50% of the time you're just going to annoy the person, maybe 10% of the time you'll succeed, and perhaps 2% of the time you'll kill 'em.

Just my 2 cents.

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Cite? You're far more likely to crush the larynx and cause LOC by asphyxiation as to cause significant blockage in the carotid by transient compression.

Well, you're not causing any significant blockage. The strike to the carotid sinus causes the body to believe that there's been a sudden rise in blood pressure, and drops it dramatically resulting in unconsciousness, as you say. Pehaps a vigorous massage takes a couple of seconds, but punching someone there as hard as you can is pretty dramatic and immediate. You can see a knife-hand carotid strike knock a guy out on video here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...c/38046-1.html

Originally Posted by qadgop the Mercotan

Ignore what you see in movies about rendering someone unconscious with a quick blow. While a precise blow to the occiput (back of the head) is most likely to succeed, I'd say that over 50% of the time you're just going to annoy the person, maybe 10% of the time you'll succeed, and perhaps 2% of the time you'll kill 'em.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it your opinion that a one punch knockout is baloney? I rung a guy's bell while sparring when he leaned into a right cross to the chin literally just yesterday.

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Ignore what you see in movies about rendering someone unconscious with a quick blow. While a precise blow to the occiput (back of the head) is most likely to succeed, I'd say that over 50% of the time you're just going to annoy the person, maybe 10% of the time you'll succeed, and perhaps 2% of the time you'll kill 'em.

While we're on it, what happens the other 38% of the time?

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by pravnik

You can see a knife-hand carotid strike knock a guy out on video here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...c/38046-1.html

Actually, that particular strike may be a brachial stun, but you get the idea.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Interesting video link. But it's certainly less than clear whether he was unconscious or not. Stunned, certainly but from a blow to the throat, or the carotid sinus? He also was up rather quickly, by all appearances. So I'm not sold on that clip as evidence that the carotid sinus is all that surefire in terms of turning someone off easily.

Note that I'm not denying that such things are possible. I know it's possible to knock someone out, with a variety of different blows to different places. It's just damn hard, takes a bit of luck along with skill, runs the risk of either doing inadequate damage or too much damage, and shouldn't be the goal of self-defense arts, anyway. The last bit is IMHO, of course.

As for the other 38% of the time, the victim is stunned and disabled, but not rendered unconscious.

[pravnik]

Point conceded that it certainly isn't as fast and sure fire as James Bond sneaking up on a guard and nonchalantly dropping him with the old judo chop, and I suppose you do have to distinguish between being stunned and completely unconscious. Even professional fighters have to work to knock a guy out cold, and it certainly isn't easy; it takes skill and a good bit of luck.

[alterego]

While it is inaccurate that you can knock someone out with a karate chop to the neck, there is a nerve halfway between your neck and shoulder that when pressed correctly can convince someone that they want to be going in the downward direction. I'm not sure what it's called but we use it in Ki-Aikido. So i'd say it's just a convenient exaggeration.

[Cartooniverse]

While I am hesitant to link in, I just viewed a video link of a cameraman running onto the field with a team. His Steadicam harness pulled him over and he hit the ground face first at high speed.

Videotape and witnesses put his unconscious time at 15-20 seconds. He was fortunate. The camera gear flew to one side. It would have crushed his face had he landed on it.

A blow to the forehead. Out like a light, though not for very long.

Cartooniverse

[Askance]

Originally Posted by CookingWithGas

Spock could do it with just a squeeze.

I didn't think he had any girlfriends.

[Cartooniverse]

Oh, I dunno about that. Once every seven years the man was an animal.

[slaphead]

Hitting people hard in the neck or jaw can indeed render someone unconcious, but the law of unintended consequences applies with respect to:

• They might become annoyed instead of unconscious
• You might kill them
• Rendering someone unconcious through trauma will leave them with after-effects that may be long-lasting or permanent
• Duration of knock-out is pretty much random
• You may just damage your hand or whatever you hit them with

Also, the following people have magic unconscious-making hands:

• Dr Spock
• James Bond
• The A-Team

I've never tried it, but suspect that like many (most?) things you see in the movies, it's neither as easy, certain or consequence-free as it looks and you would be well advised not to try it yourself unless you are in extremis or have expert assistance and a very good lawyer.

[gytalf2000]

I watched a special about TV violence in the late 1970s -- a doctor who was a "head-blow specialist" mentioned that seeing this scenario portrayed on TV disturbed him greatly, since it gave viewers the impression that a knockout blow to the head was really nothing to worry about. He knew the reality of the debilitating and detrimental effects a knock on the noggin can have in real life, and did not like to see it trivialized.

By the way -- recently Eva Longoria of "Desperate Housewives" was KOed while filming the upcoming season. I think a pole fell on her head, knocking her unconscious ( do not know how long she was unconscious, however!).She did suffer from debilitating headaches for days afterward.

Blows to the head certainly can have disastrous consequences sometimes!

[whiterabbit]

Originally Posted by slaphead

[*]Dr Spock

So would Dr. Spock have recommended knocking a kid out to shut them up for awhile? Lord knows it's tempting sometimes...

(You meant Mr. Spock. Dr. Spock was a real guy.)

[critter42]

There was an episode of "Maximum Exposure" (an "extreme" funniest home video-type show) that showed martial artist Jason Lee (not skater-turned-actor Jason Lee) taking out a guy that was trying to work over his (the guy's) girlfriend. The guy squares off against Jason. Jason steps to the side and as the guy goes by chops him on the back of the neck. The guy may not have been completely unconscious, but he sure as heck had no idea where or who he was for a few seconds.

[slaphead]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

So would Dr. Spock have recommended knocking a kid out to shut them up for awhile? Lord knows it's tempting sometimes...

(You meant Mr. Spock. Dr. Spock was a real guy.)

I blame it on the various blows to the head I have accumulated over the years.

Oh no! I just gave myself another one a moment ago!

Aaargh! I've done it again! (... continues indefinitely..)

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by critter42

There was an episode of "Maximum Exposure" (an "extreme" funniest home video-type show) that showed martial artist Jason Lee (not skater-turned-actor Jason Lee) taking out a guy that was trying to work over his (the guy's) girlfriend. The guy squares off against Jason. Jason steps to the side and as the guy goes by chops him on the back of the neck. The guy may not have been completely unconscious, but he sure as heck had no idea where or who he was for a few seconds.

His name was Jay Lee, and the video is linked in post #10. I've watched that video so many times, and it's still funny.

[AskNott]

Originally Posted by gytalf2000

By the way -- recently Eva Longoria of "Desperate Housewives" was KOed while filming the upcoming season. I think a pole fell on her head, knocking her unconscious ( do not know how long she was unconscious, however!).She did suffer from debilitating headaches for days afterward.

Heavens! Days of headaches for Eva's character would mean drastic script changes!

[Martin Hyde]

From my extensive anectdotal observations it is both quite difficult, and quite easy to knock someone out. I've watched lots of amateur boxing, participated in many boxing matches, watched many professional boxers both in person and on TV. It seems with professional boxing, given the strict nature of the sport and the strict rules for what type of blows you can deliver, a true "knockout" is damn difficult. Most KOs in boxing, in fact virtually *all* KOs in boxing the KOed person is still actually conscious. They are just in bad shape, unable to move correctly, have impaired motor function etc. People that get put in that shape and can somehow get up and avoid the KO almost always lose the match shortly later, because they are in such bad shape they can barely defend themselves after that.

However playing football I've seen many people knocked cold out with accidental collision of helmets. I've seen players be completely unresponsive but be perfectly fine 30 minutes later in the locker room. I've also seen guys get knocked out on the field and have to spend the night in the hospital. One time in HS wrestling practice a guy got slammed to the ground so hard he was out like a light. The coach couldn't get *any* response from him. However within 5 minutes he was conscious and *very* alert, that was the closest to the "holywood" knockout that I've seen.

[NinjaChick]

In case anyone's looking for ideas: If you've got to hit someone in the jaw, try not to do it with a bare fist. It's going to [i]hurt[i].

[anecdotal stuff]
I've gotten knocked out once (no idea how, exactly - car accident). I'm not quite sure how long I was out for, nor how long I was incredibly disoriented for, because I was extremely disoriented. (Apparently, one of the effects is it screws with your short-term memory, and so I kept asking the same questions over and over, right after each other). I also got nearly KO'd by a blow to the back of the head: it was entirely accidental when I was sparring in a MA class. Both times, I had an immense headache for at least a day afterwards. My opinion: it's an experience best avoided.
[/anecdotal]

[Chairman Pow]

Originally Posted by pravnik

Point conceded that it certainly isn't as fast and sure fire as James Bond sneaking up on a guard and nonchalantly dropping him with the old judo chop, and I suppose you do have to distinguish between being stunned and completely unconscious. Even professional fighters have to work to knock a guy out cold, and it certainly isn't easy; it takes skill and a good bit of luck.

Keep in mind that they're wearing mouthpieces which help.

[Bookkeeper]

Originally Posted by NinjaChick

In case anyone's looking for ideas: If you've got to hit someone in the jaw, try not to do it with a bare fist. It's going to [i]hurt[i].

Yep. Remember that boxing gloves were invented to protect your hands so you could hit harder without hurting them, not to protect the guy you were hitting.

[astorian]

There was a hilarious scene in a low-budget, low-quality action movie "High Risk," starring James Brolin that comes to mind whenever I see a standard scene where someone knocks out a sentry with a quick blow to the back of the head from a gun butt.

Brolin sneaks up on a Mexican villain's security guard, delivers the standard blow to the head, but instead of falling unconscious, the guard yells, "OWWWW!" Brolin repeats the blow again and again, and each time, the guard just yells "OWWW!" louder, bringing the attention of all the other guards.

That struck me as a far more realistic reaction!

[Sleel]

If you ring someone's bell, that means you gave them low-grade brain trauma. If you knock them out, you've done significantly more damage. Like several people said earlier, you might kill them, and you definitely will have caused some kind of problem. Even minor brain injuries often cause a change in personality, insomnia, mood swings, paranoia, all sorts of fun things. Usually, it goes away, but occasionally the problems are permanent.

A few small brain injuries can add up to a lot more serious of a problem than you'd think. I worked as a clerk for a medical research program that was investigating brain injuries. One of the things they turned up was that repeated brain trauma can have unpredictable effects. Some people are fine with a couple knocks to the head, others can fall into a coma and die.

One case I remember processing was where a soldier spent a couple of hours in observation due to a boxing injury. A few months later, on a training exercise, he bonked his head disembarking from a troop carrier. He was told to sit the exercise out and a corpsman checked him to see if he was okay. He had no visible symptoms of serious head injury and his Glasgow response was normal. Fifteen minutes later, the corpsman came back to check on the guy and he was in respiratory arrest. Resuscitation attempts failed and he died. The autopsy report showed that his brain had swollen due to a closed head injury.

It's not that often that you'll have such a dramatic response to relatively minor head injuries like that, but every once in a while, it happens. The research they were doing was attempting to find out why and what factors specifically were involved in the serious cases. One of the recommendations that came out of that was to prohibit kids from "heading" soccer balls; children are more susceptible to complications from brain injury and even relatively minor repeated impacts had a clinically measurable effect on many neurological tests. Football was considered by the researchers to be stupidly dangerous for anyone under 16 because of this.