The recent WW2 Anti-Japanese Chinese video game

[Netbrian]

An article recently came up to me here about a video game being developed by the Chinese where the player works to help Chinese troops defeat the Japanese invaders (more information at http://news.com.com/2061-10797_3-5861327.html ). It is noted that this game is designed with the express hope of spurring patriotism and national pride in the Chinese people.

Now, on a gut level, I find myself slapping my forehead at the sort of provocation to the Japanese this game will almost certainly be, especially given that relations between the two countries are at rock bottom these days. China seems to be intent on making it as clear as possible that they have no desire to discuss the issue in good faith, and I suspect that's part of the reason behind Japan's own indefensible behavior with regards to the issue.

On the other hand, rationally, I cannot put my finger on why this disturbs me so much. We've seen countless games depicting the same period, some of which probably put one in control of the Chinese-side (especially strategy games). We've seen games about Iraq, a conflict who's wounds haven't even begun to heal in the eyes of many. We've even seen games developed expressly by the American government to portray the military. So how is this game tangibly different than any of these? The only answer I can come up with is context of some sort, a remarkably slipper word.

So, I ask the members of the SDMB -- Is this game, in comparison to all the games mentioned above, palpably "worse" or different, in a way that makes it more deserving of condemnation?

[The Hamster King]

I once pitched a shooter concept to a Korean publisher that revolved around war between North and South Korea. They said absolutely not ... not only would it not sell but it would be censored by the government.

However, they added, if we would turn it into a game about defending Korea against an invasion by the Japanese ... they'd sell millions.

(We ultimately passed because we didn't think there would be a U.S. market for such a game.)

As long as there was nothing overtly racist about the game, I don't see anything wrong, particularly since it takes place during WWII. How is this any different than the numerous American WWII shooters that let you kill Nazis?

[clairobscur]

I honestly can't see why there would any problem with this game. As you mentionned yourself, there are thousands of WWII related games. How is this one different?

[FlyingRamenMonster]

I'm Chinese and this gives me a sinking feeling.

Context, I think, is definitely important. America may be fighting Iraq but there aren't a lot of Americans who actively hate Iraqis. There are plenty of Chinese who hate the Japanese, including young people like my cousins who were born decades after the fighting stopped. Argh.

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Um, I want to add that my point is, this won't be just another game about WWII. The publishers won't see it as such, and neither will the gamers, and that's what matters.

[ElectricZ]

Originally Posted by clairobscur

I honestly can't see why there would any problem with this game. As you mentionned yourself, there are thousands of WWII related games. How is this one different?

American WWII themed games tend to show war against an ideology -- Nazis and Japanese soldiers fighting for their emperor, not against a particular ethnic group. In addition, Germany and Japan were defeated and in the Western view maybe paid enough for the war. There's distance from the past. It's history now. Japan, Germany and the US for all practical purposes are friends.

As far as the Chinese are concerned, there's still a score to settle with Japan... So this may not come across as simple entertainment.

EZ

[rjung]

While I agree that the game is somewhat creepy in that it seems to be stirring up antagonism, I also have to ask how is it any different from stuff like America's Army or the Rainbow Six series?

[Little Nemo]

I think the main factor is that in America such a game (and they certainly exist) would just be done for commercial purposes. In China, a game like this wouldn't get published unless there is a political agenda.

[rjung]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

I think the main factor is that in America such a game (and they certainly exist) would just be done for commercial purposes.

Uh, you do know who backed America's Army, don't you?

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by ElectricZ

American WWII themed games tend to show war against an ideology -- Nazis and Japanese soldiers fighting for their emperor, not against a particular ethnic group. In addition, Germany and Japan were defeated and in the Western view maybe paid enough for the war. There's distance from the past. It's history now. Japan, Germany and the US for all practical purposes are friends.

I can assure you that many Europeans think of Germany exactly the same way the Chinese think of Japan. Should these American WW2II games not be sold in these countries?

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I can assure you that many Europeans think of Germany exactly the same way the Chinese think of Japan. Should these American WW2II games not be sold in these countries?

You underestimate the Chinese feelings towards Japan.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I can assure you that many Europeans think of Germany exactly the same way the Chinese think of Japan. Should these American WW2II games not be sold in these countries?

Well, I allways play as the Germans..

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by csharpmajor

You underestimate the Chinese feelings towards Japan.

And you underestimate Slavic feelings toward Germany.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

China has money, troops, deep-rooted cultural xenophobia/contempt for other cultures (dating back thousands of years), and a grudge against Japan.

This cannot be good.

[Sailboat]

I think the reason it makes us uncomfortable is that China is a rising power feeling its oats and looking for something to focus on.

No one thinks Belgium might actually attack Germany these days, no matter how much lingering bitterness there might be. China's growing military might, coupled with the bad judgment shown by its ruling gerontocracy, just MIGHT be used against Japan some day. So we see this video game and are worried about possibilities.

Sailboat

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

It should also be mentioned, 'boat, that China has been asserting territorial claims in Indonesia, the Philippines, and even islands controlled by Australia, merely because Chinese-speaking people live there.

"Territorial claims" is an ugly, often sinister, term in Internation Affairs.

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Alessan

And you underestimate Slavic feelings toward Germany.

[hijack]Honest questions here: do Slavic governments whip up anti-German rallies? Do politicians demagogue anti-German sentiment to gain political advantage? Is there anti-German propaganda that is commonly issued in Slavic countries? is the anti-German sentiment shared across all generations, not just the older ones that may remember WW2? Can you give examples?

I have been to China, and found the sentiment against Japan, shared by virtually all average people and readily evident in government policy, to be a use of history to justify a long-held racist notion. Yes, Japan did horrible things to China, but I strongly doubt that the Chinese state controlled media have ever mentioned Japan's various apologies over the years, lest the government lose a way to stir passons against something other than the Chinese Communist Party.

I have not been to Eastern Europe, and I can certainly understand that there is remaining hatred for what happened in WW2, but I'd be surprised if there is such a mainstream, organized campaign of hatred against another country (putting aside, of course, extremist groups who are always looking for someone to hate). Since you said the level of hatred is the same, I'm very curious to hear more.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

[hijack]

I have not been to Eastern Europe, and I can certainly understand that there is remaining hatred for what happened in WW2, but I'd be surprised if there is such a mainstream, organized campaign of hatred against another country (putting aside, of course, extremist groups who are always looking for someone to hate). Since you said the level of hatred is the same, I'm very curious to hear more.

You're pretty much right. I was referring mainly to a grass-roots level attitude towards Germany, not any organized political propeganda. From that point of view, the Chinese attitude towards Japan is far more worriying than the Eastern European attitude towards Germany.

However, my impression is that Slavic - especially Russian - fear and hatred towards Germany and the Germans is (with one exception) as strong as any in the world . Furthermore, it predates WW2 by centuries, and it shows no sign of abating.

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by Netbrian

Now, on a gut level, I find myself slapping my forehead at the sort of provocation to the Japanese this game will almost certainly be, especially given that relations between the two countries are at rock bottom these days.

Rock bottom? I thought that took place around 1942.

[Netbrian]

Sorry, you're right. I meant "rock-bottom relative to the last few decades or so".

[China Guy]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

I think the main factor is that in America such a game (and they certainly exist) would just be done for commercial purposes. In China, a game like this wouldn't get published unless there is a political agenda.

You do realize of course that the china of 2005 has a majority % of their economy driven by unbridled capitalism. Whilst some of the comments and sentiments expressed here were probably true in the past, and may even still be true, I'd be willing to put money on the table that the makers of this game are driven primarily to make a quick buck. Whether its from government support, tapping into a segment of public interest or what, dollars to steamed buns the makers are hoping this sells like hotcakes so they can get their piece of the pie

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally Posted by China Guy

You do realize of course that the china of 2005 has a majority % of their economy driven by unbridled capitalism. Whilst some of the comments and sentiments expressed here were probably true in the past, and may even still be true, I'd be willing to put money on the table that the makers of this game are driven primarily to make a quick buck. Whether its from government support, tapping into a segment of public interest or what, dollars to steamed buns the makers are hoping this sells like hotcakes so they can get their piece of the pie

the two can be combined, in unholy fashion.

This is an important & scary link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/stor...8622%2C00.html


Human remains, taken from executed political prisoners, used in export consumer goods.

[Malacandra]

This sorta reminds me of a RPG called "The Price Of Freedom". I never played it, only saw it advertised, in the mid to late 1980s. The premise was this:

1) Star Wars had been voted down.
2) The USSR had developed their own version.
3) The USA was defenceless against Soviet nukes.
4) The Reds embarked on an unresisted invasion.
5) The players are brave American resistance fighters.

Clearly it wasn't Government-sponsored but privately produced to make a fast buck or six, but I suspect it may have been tapping into a particular Reaganite political mentality at the time.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by Netbrian

On the other hand, rationally, I cannot put my finger on why this disturbs me so much.

Maybe you are being overly sensitive? During the Cold War, how many virtual Russians did you kill? I wonder how many virtual Vietnamese or Middle Easterners have been killed on PCs here in the US.

[Jenga]

Originally Posted by dropzone

Rock bottom? I thought that took place around 1942.

I wonder why you chose this year, or thereabouts, as Rock bottom?

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Jenga

I wonder why you chose this year, or thereabouts, as Rock bottom?

Oh, maybe because tens of thousands of Chinese were being massacred by invading Japanese forces, starting around 1936. That's my guess, anyway.

[Jenga]

The Japanese invaded Manchuria in 1931 and the Second Sino-Japanese War started in 1937 and ended in 1945. The most notorious Japanese atrocity, the Nanking Massacre, also happened in 1937. What was notable about 1942 other than America entering the conflict a few weeks beforehand?

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I can assure you that many Europeans think of Germany exactly the same way the Chinese think of Japan. Should these American WW2II games not be sold in these countries?

Your citizenship made me think about a wargame I own : "Divided ground", which is a tactical wargame about the arab-israeli wars (excellent game that I highly recommand, by the way, but probably difficult to find now as it's rather old).

Given the extreme tension between Israelis and Palestinians, would selling this game in Israel or in an arab country be an issue too?

[rjung]

Originally Posted by Malacandra

This sorta reminds me of a RPG called "The Price Of Freedom". I never played it, only saw it advertised, in the mid to late 1980s.

Ah, yes. The box had a bald, mustached Soviet-looking general looking to one side, while a bunch of bandana-wearing flag-waving American teens charged from the bottom, IIRC. I thought it was an attempt to do an RPG version of Red Dawn, myself.

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