Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-05-2005, 10:22 PM
Johanna's Avatar
Johanna is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Altered States of America
Posts: 13,278

Getting that lesbian toaster oven


This subject was an autohijack in the femme/butch thread so I thought it would be neater to spin off a new thread rather than continuing the hijack.

Getting the "toaster oven" as a proverbial reward for recruiting a new lesbian came from an episode of Ellen, IIRC.

There was a bit of controversy resulting from my quote of Jeanne Adleman:

"It took me five years of uncertainty to believe that I could be good enough to be a lesbian, could equal the qualities I saw in others. I was helped by recognizing that the particular group of lesbians and nonlesbians I worked with shared progressive political commitments around, for example, race and class."

Emphasis in the original.

Just because someone announces to the world that she's now lesbian by her own fiat — and I believe she certainly has the right to determine that for herself — to be able to participate in lesbian group cohesion, it isn't necessarily that simple. I think the underlying issue is "Can we count on you to stick with us when the going gets rough, or are you just a fair weather friend?" Because it isn't always easy to belong to a minority group that many feel citizens free to despise openly. That's why Adleman feels it goes along with progressive political commitments. "We want to know if you'll stick with us in the struggle."

As for my lesbian bona fides, you've seen the posts I've made on Sappho, quoting her poems in the original Greek along with translation. That's what you get when a bookish linguistic/literary geek is also lesbian.

The lesbian coming out process is a matter of establishing a relationship first with oneself and then with others. It's an ongoing process as the self is explored further and further. I hate to use such a trite cliché as "a journey of self-discovery," but that's what it is for me. To exist with a lesbian identity in society, I needed to build relationships with other dykes based on mutual acceptance and respect. (OK, mutual sexual hots would be just as good too.)

Violet: We're not that different, Corky.
Corky: Ah, let's see. This is the part where you tell me what matters is on the inside, and that inside of you there's a little dyke just like me.
Violet: No, she's nothing like you. She's a whole lot smarter than you are.
(Bound)
  #2  
Old 10-05-2005, 10:30 PM
CynicalGabe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,760
Are you asking a question here?

What is the point of your post?
  #3  
Old 10-05-2005, 11:05 PM
Johanna's Avatar
Johanna is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Altered States of America
Posts: 13,278
Well, that was rude. If you don't like my thread, then don't fucking post in it, OK?
  #4  
Old 10-05-2005, 11:35 PM
lorinada is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Greater Fort Worth
Posts: 1,116
What is the debate?
  #5  
Old 10-05-2005, 11:50 PM
mks57 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Seabrook, Maryland
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Well, that was rude. If you don't like my thread, then don't fucking post in it, OK?
I think you are looking for Great Monologues, not Great Debates.
  #6  
Old 10-05-2005, 11:53 PM
Beware of Doug is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: My Own Private Iowa
Posts: 15,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Just because someone announces to the world that she's now lesbian by her own fiat
How many recruits do you have to sign up to get a Fiat?
  #7  
Old 10-05-2005, 11:54 PM
Odesio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 11,443
Yeah, where's the beef? Ultimately all of us go through a process of self-discovery to figure out who we are and how we relate to the rest of society. It's called life though most of us have to open a new checking account to get that nifty toaster oven. Really, what's the debate here? Does it have anything to do with how we choose to define ourselves and how that relates to the rest of humanity?

Marc
  #8  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:00 AM
Johanna's Avatar
Johanna is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Altered States of America
Posts: 13,278
You guys don't know how to read? The OP clearly said there was a controversy that hijacked another thread, I linked to the other thread to show that there was an argument about it, and I said it should be continued here instead of hijacking the other thread any more. It was already obviously a debate. Any other questions?
  #9  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:01 AM
asterion is offline
Just Some Guy
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware of Doug
How many recruits do you have to sign up to get a Fiat?
A new Fiat or an old Fiat? I'd have to say three, since a toaster oven is still more useful and reliable than a Fiat.
  #10  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:16 AM
Odesio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 11,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
It was already obviously a debate. Any other questions?
Yeah, tell us what the debate is without making us read the link.

Marc
  #11  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:28 AM
CynicalGabe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Well, that was rude. If you don't like my thread, then don't fucking post in it, OK?
Excuse me, if you want a debate, why don't you mention what it is we are supposed to be talking about.

Otherwise, its a link plus a monologue.
  #12  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:28 AM
TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,111
It would be so awesome if we had a smiley saying "Put it in your livejournal!"
  #13  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:58 AM
John Mace's Avatar
John Mace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 85,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
You guys don't know how to read?
When multiple people ask you the same question, you might consider that it's your writing that is the problem, not their reading. I don't see what the debate is either.
  #14  
Old 10-06-2005, 04:24 AM
Malacandra is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England, Britain, UK
Posts: 18,480
I don't know about a toaster oven, but what do you have to do to be awarded that hammer that makes everything look like a nail?
  #15  
Old 10-06-2005, 04:42 AM
ambushed is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,710
Okay, I don't know where the debate is either, but I'll be happy to begin by mocking your hateful quotation by Adleman!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
There was a bit of controversy resulting from my quote of Jeanne Adleman:

"It took me five years of uncertainty to believe that I could be [/i]good enough[i] to be a lesbian, could equal the qualities I saw in others. I was helped by recognizing that the particular group of lesbians and nonlesbians I worked with shared progressive political commitments around, for example, race and class."

Emphasis in the original.
What, a woman who just likes pussy is not "good enough" to be a lesbian?? Nothing I have ever read could make me despise lesbians more! (that's just one extraordinarily sanctimonious lesbian, right? None of my lesbian friends are that obnoxious!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Just because someone announces to the world that she's now lesbian by her own fiat — and I believe she certainly has the right to determine that for herself — to be able to participate in lesbian group cohesion, it isn't necessarily that simple. I think the underlying issue is "Can we count on you to stick with us when the going gets rough, or are you just a fair weather friend?" Because it isn't always easy to belong to a minority group that many feel citizens free to despise openly. That's why Adleman feels it goes along with progressive political commitments. "We want to know if you'll stick with us in the struggle."
Gah! There's at least two of you extraordinarily sanctimonious lesbians! There isn't a great deal more you could say outside of your admission of burning live babies that would make me despise your attitude more. How dare anyone require political fealty and political correctness out of people before you'll accept them as equals! Adleman's -- and apparently your -- position is despotic in the extreme, and utterly reprehensible.

Your saving grace is that you admitted: "(OK, mutual sexual hots would be just as good too.)" Welcome to the human race. But if you honestly believe such adherence to a lesbian faith is required for being considered a lesbian, then I withdraw my welcome.
  #16  
Old 10-06-2005, 04:57 AM
TokyoBayer's Avatar
TokyoBayer is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGibson
Yeah, tell us what the debate is without making us read the link.
Especially one with 67 posts in it.

If this were in IMHO, I'd go for the Fiat. Not that my old 128 (mine isn't posted) did me much good.
  #17  
Old 10-06-2005, 05:11 AM
Rune is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,731
Lesbian is a sexual orientation not a political ideology. You are lesbians if you are a woman who eat pussy, it doesn’t require you to be a firebrand communist.
  #18  
Old 10-06-2005, 06:53 AM
E-Sabbath is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Up The River
Posts: 13,944
I think this counts as witnessing, honestly. Calm down, Johanna. You're cool with yourself and the process you're going through, and that's all that matters.

But I still think this might belong in IMHO or MPIMS.
Or it might not. But... can you watch the F-bombs?
  #19  
Old 10-06-2005, 07:45 AM
norinew is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wilds of WV
Posts: 10,652
Who do I have to pray to/vote for/read novels by in order to get admitted into the heterosexual club? And if I'm not committed enough to be a homosexual or a heterosexual, do I have to be celibate? What if I'm not militant enough for the celibates either?

Yeesh, new worries to keep me awake at night!





or not.
  #20  
Old 10-06-2005, 07:50 AM
Rune is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by norinew
Who do I have to pray to/vote for/read novels by in order to get admitted into the heterosexual club? And if I'm not committed enough to be a homosexual or a heterosexual, do I have to be celibate? What if I'm not militant enough for the celibates either?

Yeesh, new worries to keep me awake at night!
Don't worry love. I'll do you.

We're all omnisexuals in here.
  #21  
Old 10-06-2005, 07:58 AM
norinew is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wilds of WV
Posts: 10,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
Don't worry love. I'll do you.

We're all omnisexuals in here.
A very sweet offer, Rune! However, lucky for me, I am exactly militant enough for my husband.

As to the OP (in case my first post wasn't quite clear enough), the very idea that one must be good enough to identify with a particular group of sexual orientation strikes me as obnoxious, pompous, and silly.
  #22  
Old 10-06-2005, 08:36 AM
tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,767
Johanna, you'll have to count me among the posters who do not recognize a debate in your OP. It might be a matter of personal exposition that would fit in MPSIMS or (if I could figure out what was being questioned) a poll in IMHO, but I do not see the issue that is being presented for actual debate.

Please explain the point for discussion or this thread will be moved out of GD. (You also need to calm down, a bit. Cussing because someone asks the purpose of your thread is pretty much an overreaction)

[ /Moderating ]
  #23  
Old 10-06-2005, 08:39 AM
tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambushed
There's at least two of you extraordinarily sanctimonious lesbians!
You also need to reconsider your posting style. This is the second time in two days that you have overreacted to another's post with statements that stood right on the line of personal insults and you are on your way toward a formal warning.

Calm down.

[ /Moderator Mode ]
  #24  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:30 AM
Evil Captor is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lair
Posts: 20,890
I think the debate here is, "Is there something besides being a woman who likes to have sex with women that makes one a lesbian?"
  #25  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:32 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,599
A suggested debate: is it intellectually coherent to discuss someone being "good enough to be a lesbian"? Or is that roughly equivalent to asking whether someone is "good enough to be Asian," or "good enough to be atheist"?

I think the quote betrays a dogmatic, anti-intellectual worldview that places ideological rigidity as a value greater than mutual respect, compassion, and tolerance.

Debate that, suckas!

Daniel
  #26  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:35 AM
hajario's Avatar
hajario is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 15,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Captor
I think the debate here is, "Is there something besides being a woman who likes to have sex with women that makes one a lesbian?"
In that case, the answer is no. Lesbians are under no obligation to belong to the hyper-political, butch looking subgroup. Those guys are mostly zealous newbies, like the recently converted Christian who annoys all of their friends.
  #27  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:38 AM
Scott Plaid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Baltimore, Spaceland
Posts: 5,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Captor
I think the debate here is, "Is there something besides being a woman who likes to have sex with women that makes one a lesbian?"
No, nothing.

However, I think what the OP is trying to ask is, "How much respect should she pay to a "lesbian" co-ed who will abandon all romantic ties to women when she graduates college?"
  #28  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:58 AM
Love Rhombus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The suburbs of Innsmouth
Posts: 4,438
Interesting point, Scott. How are "lipstick lesbians" (if that is a derogatory name I apoligize) treated by "regular" lesbians, assuming they're known to be such by the general lesbian community?
  #29  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:00 AM
Eonwe's Avatar
Eonwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Burlington VT
Posts: 8,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
No, nothing.

However, I think what the OP is trying to ask is, "How much respect should she pay to a "lesbian" co-ed who will abandon all romantic ties to women when she graduates college?"
To which I would answer, "if it's ok to sleep with who one wants, why the heck should it matter if one chooses to sleep with women for some years, and then not after?" As has been pointed out, this boils down to some sense of 'solidarity' or something, where those who have some degree of power try to dictate who they will share power with.

This isn't just about college lesbians either. There are many different 'groups' who don't always mesh with the "right" way to be lesbian. Johanna herself had an interesting OP about power dynamics that she linked to at the top of this thread. Frankly, I find it kind of interesting that on the one hand you can lament having your lesbian-ism called into question for being too femme on the one hand, and then turn around and question the lesbian-ism of others at the same time.

Either being a lesbian is about being attracted to women, or it's just an affectation or cultural choice. I'd think that at this point it's pretty well established that it's the former, so why are so many lesbians unable to affirm that in others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
To exist with a lesbian identity in society, I needed to build relationships with other dykes based on mutual acceptance and respect.
Maybe for you. But does this mean that people need to stay in the closet until the rest of the lesbian 'community' approves their outward projection of their lesbianism?




As for my lesbian bona fides, you've seen the posts I've made on Sappho, quoting her poems in the original Greek along with translation. That's what you get when a bookish linguistic/literary geek is also lesbian.
  #30  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:03 AM
Malacandra is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England, Britain, UK
Posts: 18,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
No, nothing.

However, I think what the OP is trying to ask is, "How much respect should she pay to a "lesbian" co-ed who will abandon all romantic ties to women when she graduates college?"
No, I think the OP was, at least ostensibly, asking "What ought I to do in order to earn respect from 'established' lesbians?".
  #31  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:08 AM
Scott Plaid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Baltimore, Spaceland
Posts: 5,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Hell
Interesting point, Scott. How are "lipstick lesbians" (if that is a derogatory name I apologize) treated by "regular" lesbians, assuming they're known to be such by the general lesbian community?
They are known to be lesbians. Period.

You are not using a derogatory name, however, but simply the wrong one. A lipstick lesbian is someone who dresses in a perfectly "normal" female mode of dress. However, she does not deny that she is a lesbian. I think the term we are both looking for is a LUG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
To which I would answer, "if it's ok to sleep with who one wants, why the heck should it matter if one chooses to sleep with women for some years, and then not after?" As has been pointed out, this boils down to some sense of 'solidarity' or something, where those who have some degree of power try to dictate who they will share power with.
Not so much solidarity, as hurting others because they are denying the validity of their feelings , and the feelings of their girlfriends. Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left.
  #32  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:12 AM
Frank is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 20,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
Not so much solidarity, as hurting others because they are denying the validity of their feelings , and the feelings of their girlfriends. Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left.
Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight?
  #33  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:16 AM
Malacandra is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England, Britain, UK
Posts: 18,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by This Year's Model
Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight?
I think part of the problem is that they are assumed never to have believed they were gay in the first place, but chose to have supportive relationships, recreational sex, or whatever, with women while they were at college. Why? Maybe so as not to prejudice their future marriages. It probably deserves yet another thread so as not to hijack.

But if I'm not off the rails so far, pretending to be gay for the fun aspects thereof, and not committing to the downsides, or else offering substantive evidence that, why yes, it can be nothing more than a choice, is seen as selling out the committed lesbians.
  #34  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:17 AM
Eonwe's Avatar
Eonwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Burlington VT
Posts: 8,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
Not so much solidarity, as hurting others because they are denying the validity of their feelings , and the feelings of their girlfriends. Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left.
So that I'm clear, you're saying that a "LUG" is hurting others? Because... they're not dating women anymore? Where are they by definition denying the validity of anyone's feelings? I don't deny the validity of my ex's feelings when I date other people, regardless of gender. Nor do I deny the validity of my own feelings in the past when I date new people. I think I'm missing something in your argument.
  #35  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:19 AM
Malacandra is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England, Britain, UK
Posts: 18,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left.
...Because...?
  #36  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:26 AM
Scott Plaid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Baltimore, Spaceland
Posts: 5,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
So that I'm clear, you're saying that a "LUG" is hurting others? Because... they're not dating women anymore?
Most accounts I have read contain the LUG breaking up with their girlfriend, not because of any good reason, but because of self denial. "OH, I am a girl, and girls can't really be that way,." "I was just experimenting", etc. meets "How could you lead me on like that? ", "How dare you put down my love for you? ", "Are you saying the times we shared weren’t real?"

Also, it feeds the myth that all a lesbian needs is an experience with a man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malacandra
...Because...?
Because they are lesbians, they just hid that part from themselves in order to rejoin straight society, have a stereotypical wedding, etc.

A few years down the road they find themselves having an affair with the girl's gym teacher, move out, get divorced, and screw up the feelings of their children.

True, it is a big part of them discovering their true identity, but in the meantime the whole family suffers.
  #37  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:31 AM
Frank is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 20,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malacandra
But if I'm not off the rails so far, pretending to be gay for the fun aspects thereof, and not committing to the downsides, or else offering substantive evidence that, why yes, it can be nothing more than a choice, is seen as selling out the committed lesbians.
OK, I can understand that, but there also seems to be a strong current of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
Because they are lesbians, they just hid that part from themselves in order to rejoin straight society, have a stereotypical wedding, etc.
to whom I repeat my question:

Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight?
  #38  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:35 AM
Shodan is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 38,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by This Year's Model
Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight?
Because then the girlfriend has to give back the toaster.

Regards,
Shodan
  #39  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:36 AM
Scott Plaid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Baltimore, Spaceland
Posts: 5,883
It is completely acceptable. However, it is claimed to happen more then it does. When the false claims of straightness start, then the trouble begins
  #40  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:37 AM
hawthorne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malacandra
No, I think the OP was, at least ostensibly, asking "What ought I to do in order to earn respect from 'established' lesbians?".
More bluntly, how much can the 'established' extort from vulnerable people whilst still feeling smug?

They just want to wet their beaks, after all.
  #41  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:40 AM
Malacandra is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England, Britain, UK
Posts: 18,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawthorne
More bluntly, how much can the 'established' extort from vulnerable people whilst still feeling smug?

They just want to wet their beaks, after all.
Perish the thought.
  #42  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:48 AM
norinew is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wilds of WV
Posts: 10,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
It is completely acceptable. However, it is claimed to happen more then it does. When the false claims of straightness start, then the trouble begins
I understand that, but it's not a matter of sexual identity that's causing the problem. It's a matter of honesty. I think we can all agree that dishonesty isn't desirable in anyone.
  #43  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:56 AM
Eonwe's Avatar
Eonwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Burlington VT
Posts: 8,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
It is completely acceptable. However, it is claimed to happen more then it does. When the false claims of straightness start, then the trouble begins
Right, but being GD, I'm gonna ask, "cite!"

It's one thing to rant about a specific situation where some girl treated another like shit by denying a relationship had any validity, "oh, well, I was just, you know, experimenting. I don't really like women, so, um, have a nice life." It's another to assert that this is generally the case with people who experiment sexually/romanticaly across gender lines without more hard and fast evidence. It just ends up sounding like, well, a rant based on experience or percieved wrongdoing and persecution, as opposed to a rational, debatable point (which, incidentally, is how intra-sexuality infighting and power struggles often seem to me).
  #44  
Old 10-06-2005, 11:05 AM
Scott Plaid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Baltimore, Spaceland
Posts: 5,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
It's another to assert that this is generally the case with people who experiment sexually/romantically across gender lines without more hard and fast evidence.
I have come across one story of heartbreak after another. Is this evidence that all LUGS are liars and heartbreakers, or just proof that the other cases simply do not get written down?

I don't know. However, I don't see any national poll asking about claimed straightness v. real straightness, denial of feelings, and the results decades down the line.

Until such a poll exists, I am willing to go with the consensus found in other message boards/lesbian stereotypes that the cases I propose are the vast majority.
  #45  
Old 10-06-2005, 11:10 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,735
Putting sexuality completely aside, a person who asks themselves if they're "good enough" to join a group is a wuss, and ridiculing wusses is practically a blood sport in this day and age.
  #46  
Old 10-06-2005, 11:38 AM
Beware of Doug is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: My Own Private Iowa
Posts: 15,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
[...]it feeds the myth that all a lesbian needs is an experience with a man.Because they are lesbians, they just hid that part from themselves in order to rejoin straight society, have a stereotypical wedding, etc.

A few years down the road they find themselves having an affair with the girl's gym teacher [...]
First a stereotypical wedding, then a stereotypical lesbian. I guess they're just confused what stereotype they want to live up to...
  #47  
Old 10-06-2005, 11:52 AM
Guinastasia's Avatar
Guinastasia is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 52,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
Most accounts I have read contain the LUG breaking up with their girlfriend, not because of any good reason, but because of self denial. "OH, I am a girl, and girls can't really be that way,." "I was just experimenting", etc. meets "How could you lead me on like that? ", "How dare you put down my love for you? ", "Are you saying the times we shared weren’t real?"

Also, it feeds the myth that all a lesbian needs is an experience with a man.Because they are lesbians, they just hid that part from themselves in order to rejoin straight society, have a stereotypical wedding, etc.

A few years down the road they find themselves having an affair with the girl's gym teacher, move out, get divorced, and screw up the feelings of their children.

True, it is a big part of them discovering their true identity, but in the meantime the whole family suffers.

Or else, they were bisexual in the first place, perhaps?
  #48  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:07 PM
toadspittle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Toadspittle Hill
Posts: 6,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
I have come across one story of heartbreak after another. Is this evidence that all LUGS are liars and heartbreakers, or just proof that the other cases simply do not get written down?

I don't know. However, I don't see any national poll asking about claimed straightness v. real straightness, denial of feelings, and the results decades down the line.

Until such a poll exists, I am willing to go with the consensus found in other message boards/lesbian stereotypes that the cases I propose are the vast majority.
So, Bisexuals don't exist any more?

Personally, I don't get the whole problem with LUGs. So what? Maybe they aren't sleeping with women anymore. Maybe one day, they'll do it again. What's wrong with that? Have you considered that people sometimes need different things at different points in their lives? I think it's perfectly reasonable that a girl can find both men and women attractive. There are points in her life when she needs to date a certain kind of person (archetypes--someone stronger than her who can take charge, a confidante, a comforter, someone who needs her, etc.). Sometimes that person is a man, sometimes a woman. And yes, perhaps it could screw up a marriage. But heterosexual people screw up their marriages by marrying the wrong type of person all the time.
  #49  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:14 PM
RTFirefly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 38,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Plaid
"I was just experimenting", etc. meets "How could you lead me on like that? ", "How dare you put down my love for you? ", "Are you saying the times we shared weren’t real?"
If someone's sufficiently superficial and self-involved that they'd walk out of an otherwise healthy, satisfying relationship simply because some sort of inner clock said it was time to stop dallying with women, score a husband, and become a soccer mom - who'd want to be involved with that sort anyway??

The problem with such a person isn't that she's a LUG; her problem is that she's got her head up her ass.
  #50  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:18 PM
DocCathode's Avatar
DocCathode is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Philladelphia-Mummer city
Posts: 11,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
There was a bit of controversy resulting from my quote of Jeanne Adleman:

"It took me five years of uncertainty to believe that I could be good enough to be a lesbian, could equal the qualities I saw in others. I was helped by recognizing that the particular group of lesbians and nonlesbians I worked with shared progressive political commitments around, for example, race and class."

Emphasis in the original.

Just because someone announces to the world that she's now lesbian by her own fiat — and I believe she certainly has the right to determine that for herself — to be able to participate in lesbian group cohesion, it isn't necessarily that simple. I think the underlying issue is "Can we count on you to stick with us when the going gets rough, or are you just a fair weather friend?"
If that's what Adleman meant, then the underlying issue is either- her poor writing skills, or her defining "lesbian" to mean something that it doesn't.

Quote:
Because it isn't always easy to belong to a minority group that many feel citizens free to despise openly. That's why Adleman feels it goes along with progressive political commitments. "We want to know if you'll stick with us in the struggle."
But that is not part of the definition of lesbian.

OTTOMH- Lesbian- noun a woman who is exclusively romantically/sexually interested in other women.

A woman does not have to belong to any lesbian organizations in order to be a lesbian. She does not have to participate in any struggle for rights, recognition etc in order to be a lesbian.

Quote:
To exist with a lesbian identity in society, I needed to build relationships with other dykes based on mutual acceptance and respect.
No you don't. Finding acceptance in a group is not necessary to be a lesbian. It certainly makes life easier, but it isn't necessary.
__________________
Nothing is impossible if you can imagine it. That's the wonder of being a scientist!
Prof Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017