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  #1  
Old 08-15-2000, 12:17 PM
Needs2know Needs2know is offline
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I just had to share this...yesterday I did a silly thing. I asked my mother what she thought of Leiberman. I knew the answer but just had to ask. She said that sealed it for her she was voting Bush. She wasn't going to vote for a jew. (The only thing that keeps her Democrat is that she likes abortion.) So naturally I said something to the effect that what difference did it make where he went to church. Guess what she says to me...I'm still amazed although I don't know why...She says....David Duke says that the Jews are responsible for blah, blah, blah in this country. Oh yeah I know what it was... promoting the cause of the blacks!....He says they want the blacks to "take over". (Blacks isn't exactly the name she used but you get the point.)

My brain went into shut down. I actually couldn't even hear what she was saying by then. I said; "Ma did you say David Duke said?" The answer was yes. She's gotten worse. She was just not this bad when we were kids growing up. You'd think that something serious would have happened to her in order for her to become this way. Well it didn't. She wasn't passed over for a job or admission to college or anything because of racial quotas. She's never been the victim of a violent crime by a minority. I just don't get it.

It drives me crazy, but then I asked didn't I.

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Old 08-15-2000, 12:23 PM
Demo Demo is offline
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Old 08-15-2000, 12:26 PM
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I'm sorry to hear that...

Does she realize that she's a bigot? Does it even matter to her?

As for the election, point out to her that Dubya's foreign policy advisor is black...mebbe she'll vote Reform.
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Old 08-15-2000, 12:34 PM
Ukulele Ike Ukulele Ike is offline
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Sorry. Buchanan picked out a black lady teacher to run with him.

Shit-fire...it's getting harder and harder to be openly bigoted these days...
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  #5  
Old 08-15-2000, 12:43 PM
soulsling soulsling is offline
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I hear ya Needs2know, my mom is the reverse. If the persons NOT Jewish, they're no good, and she doesn't think so highly of them. Maybe our moms should do lunch...

I don't think it's worth your time to wonder why she's like the way she is. As a mother, that's what I concern myself with when it comes to my mother. I understand her prejudice is within her, and I can't change her, so I don't. Doesn't make her right, but it's just the way the older generations seem to be. I see less youth being so bigoted these days, even where I live, though it's still not gone for good, it's definitely not as bad IMO as it was in our parents day.
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Old 08-15-2000, 12:44 PM
Biggirl Biggirl is offline
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Imagine my surprise when I found out the father that I love is also a racist. He would never use the hateful language your mother used, knowing how damaging it can be to people who never did harm to anyone. He has come by his racism honestly.

He doesn't trust white people. He believes a white person would just as soon stab him in the back as talk to him. He was born in 1946 in South Carolina and he remembers. He remembers getting spit at and being treated as a sub-human. He remembers when it was perfectly alright to call him "nigger boy".

He hates white people. All of them. He has spread this hatred to his step-children. They hate white people too, but they don't really know why. To my step-sisters, it's white people's fault they can't get a good job. It's white people's fault a large portion of the young men they know are in jail. To them, everything is white people's fault.

Me, I happen to be lucky. My mother was hispanic. My grandmother raised me since I was 5. She was originally from Spain. She has blonde hair and hazel eyes. I can see that "white" people are not some monochromic blight upon the landscape of colored people (although sometimes it seems like they try hard to be).

Your mother and my father would probably be great friends, if only. . .
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Old 08-15-2000, 12:47 PM
Needs2know Needs2know is offline
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Hey Ike...she mentioned the black woman...I was so stunned by the David Duke comment by then that I wasn't registering much else of what she said by then.

What amazes me is how vehemently she believes that she is right.

Funny too, I had this conversation with her yesterday morning. I played hooky from work and decided yesterday afternoon to watch "American History X" on video. I had rented it having not seen it yet. My 16 year old daughter asked me if she could watch. I knew it would be violent, perhaps graphically so, but I also knew it was about a skin head that changes his views after a stay in prison. I let her watch with me. She isn't a baby after all and at least the violence comes with a message. She's seen enough "I Saw What You Did Last Summer" type movies anyway. When it was over I said; "Honey, this is why I do not want you listen to some of the things Grandma says. You must not ever be rude to her just don't take any of that stuff seriously." She said; "I know Mama. You've been trying to teach us right." Between the end of that movie and my own kid I got a little misty.

What's a parent to do? I'm not that bright or politically astute but I know hatred and resentment will get us nowhere. Is it me or are we becoming even more polarized than ever in our society? It worries me that my children will one day get caught up in something nasty and serious. All I can hope is that they do what is right no matter how intense the pressure becomes to do what is easiest.

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Old 08-15-2000, 12:51 PM
Eve Eve is offline
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Well, Pinky, to be fair, I DID personally keep all your stepsisters from getting good jobs . . .

Needs, I'm just surprised it took this long for you to find out what a jerk your Mom is . . . My father was a jerk from Day One, and there was never any question in my mind. I was surprised by a fellow at work this week. He and I had been pals for about two years, and then he refers to Nathan Lane as a "fucking faggot!" OK, Nathan Lane grates on my nerves, too, but all of a sudden this office fellow has dropped into the "bigoted jerk" file in my interior hard drive. Shame, too, I can use all the friend I can find here.
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  #9  
Old 08-15-2000, 12:52 PM
SaxFace SaxFace is offline
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My father and his mother are racist pigs, too. It's so horrible and I'm so ashamed. However, I have made it VERY clear to both of them that if they're going to spout hateful crap, I'd better not hear it. For several years now, they've respected my wishes.
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Old 08-15-2000, 01:00 PM
SaxFace SaxFace is offline
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Needs, I just read your last post. It's cool that you're talking to your daughter about it (I'm sure she's wondered) but I have to take the "don't be rude to grandma" comment and throw it out the window.

In the case of my father and his mother, when I heard the kind of shit they were saying, I was very rude to them, mostly because I was confident they were ruder. I would say things like, "well, too bad I'm going to donate all of the money I inherit from you to minority charities" or "gee, I suppose you haven't met my [insert race or religion] boyfriend yet?"

For several years I dropped out of Latvian society - I told my grandmother it was because a lot of Latvians were racist pigs (which is true of the older generations). It broke her heart and she no longer feels it's necessary to discuss race issues with me.

As for my father, I publicly berate him and point out what a loser he is - he has no reason to downtrod others. And he knows I'm right.

I'm not sure these tactics are right for you, but it would be really hard for me to just sit there and politely smile and not say anything.
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Old 08-15-2000, 01:04 PM
CrankyAsAnOldMan CrankyAsAnOldMan is offline
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My husband's nana said a really, really racially offensive word last time we saw her, then laughed. I was beside myself. I didn't think it was a appropriate to argue with a 93-year old woman with a depression problem, but I also felt like a heel just "letting it go."

I just cannot imagine anyone--even a slime-hearted bigot--thinking it's OKAY to say that stuff in front of other people. I don't get it.
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Old 08-15-2000, 01:08 PM
Miss Creant Miss Creant is offline
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Um...your mom is aware that Jesus was Jewish, isn't she?
Because if she hates Jews, she better be careful if He comes back.;j
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Old 08-15-2000, 01:12 PM
pluto pluto is offline
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My maternal grandmother thought the PC term for black people was "darkies". I know my dad's views on race aren't particularly liberal, but he keeps them to himself to avoid offending people. His grandmother was deathly afraid of Indians -- she wasn't old enough herself, but her parents and grandparents were of a generation where Indian wars occurred. My father is, by today's standards, extremely chauvinistic but compared to his dad he's a spokesman for equality.

It's this sort of thing that gives me hope for the future. My wife and I are less bigoted, racist, chauvinistic, etc, than our parents and, hopefully, our kids are less so than we are. The unfortunate thing is that it takes a whole generation for acceptance to become the norm, rather than something you have to work at.
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2000, 01:26 PM
Needs2know Needs2know is offline
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Don't worry I don't sit by and politely smile. But I'm an adult and my reasoning behind having my daughter be polite to her grandmother is sound. When she is a grown woman I do hope that she will stand by her convictions for better or worse. For right now I'd prefer that she not get into any kind of debate with her grandmother. She is her elder and it isn't seemly. I also don't hold to the notion that my mother is a racist "pig". My mother is not a pig. Misguided, flat out wrong, but she is not evil and would not condone physical violence or hurting anyone. She's just a little stupid about some things. And oh so willing to see things in black and white, blaming what she sees as injustice on the nearest thing. She's impressionable. Naive in a way. Selfish to the core. Because I do see racisim as an ultimate form of selfishness. And people like David Duke and Dr. Laura count on this very human trait in order to promote their agendas.

How easy it is to take our own failures and blame others. How simple it is say that someone else is beneath us rather than do what is necessary to lift our own selves higher. As I've stated often enough in other threads here white bigotry toward other races is based on bullshit. There is no basis what-so-ever for a white man's resentment toward a black in this country other than pure selfishness. A pathological desire to stay "king of the hill" and not let anyone else share in the privledges we have maintained for so long.

As for black bigotry, I can understand how a hatred towards whites could exsist. Historically African Americans do indeed have a basis for their hatred. But it will do them no good. And it nullifies the contributions of white men and women who have fought and at times given their lives for the conviction that all men should be given an equal chance in this country. I've wondered from time to time how swiftly the civil rights movement would have progressed without the support of white men and women of conscience. This is exactly what I mean about hate. I don't want my children to ever think it is the right. And that means that along with teaching them that hate is wrong I must try to instill in them a sense of personal responsibility. Then they will not be thinking that their "fate" is governed by anything or anyone but their own successes and failures.

Needs2know
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Old 08-15-2000, 01:31 PM
SwimmingRiddles SwimmingRiddles is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Needs2know
What's a parent to do? I'm not that bright or politically astute but I know hatred and resentment will get us nowhere. Is it me or are we becoming even more polarized than ever in our society? It worries me that my children will one day get caught up in something nasty and serious. All I can hope is that they do what is right no matter how intense the pressure becomes to do what is easiest.
We are definately becoming more and more polarized. I'm all for political correctness, no skin off my pink nose to use phrases that don't offend. But somehow that has swung WAY too far, where it isn't the language that's taboo anymore, the very CONCEPT of racial differences is taboo. And that's the most ridiculous thing in the world. Differences shouldn't be taboo, they should be talked about, and celebrated.

I voluneer at a preschool. At said preschool is a 4 year old who is black. She's growing up in the whitest state in the union, and has DEFINATE questions about skin color. She's said things to me on numerous occations, asking if being different was bad, why my skin got pink when I was in the sun too long, and how much "tanner" she was than I was. She was feeling the waters, seeing if I'd deal with her questions or give her some softball answer. I told her that no, being different sometimes was not fun, but it was ALWAYS better to be different and special than the same and boring. I told her that my skin got pink if I didn't wear sunscreen, and that some people's skin burns easier than others. I told her that she WAS tanner than I was, and that I was jealous, as I was all pasty-white. To which she grinned, and said "Yea, I'm chocolate brown. Kahlil (her brother) is Spanish brown." She wanted to talk about it, and talking made her feel better. So why the hell shouldn't she talk about it? Because some white preschool teacher from Vermont isn't comfortable talking about differences? The kid has questions, and not answering them will just teach her that white people like to ignore racial issues. The sad part is that I'm sure the majority of teachers she'll encounter in this state will. [/endrant]

We have people killing and torturing each other in this country over friggen skin pigmentation. Give me a break. There are SO many better things to fight over. Like country music. And Steven Segal movies.
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2000, 02:33 PM
wolfman wolfman is offline
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It gets even wierder when it is a non-hateful bigotry. My grandmother was always kind of wierd to talk to about race issues. She was the kindest person in the world who never hated a soul. She would never do anything to hurt anyone, but she had some bigoted ideas. Because of the way things were when she was raised she just thought it was a simple fact that other races were different. She thought that "blacks were just not as smart" and "Mexicans are lazy". There was no malice whatsoever just a long time, deep-rooted ignorance. She would let whichever neigborhood kid who asked to mow her lawn first do it, no matter what race they were, paid them the same and fed them(of course she always made sure she had watermellon in case one of the black kids asked, sigh). But if the kid was black, she would take extra time to point out what were flowers and what were weeds.If the kid was hispanic, she would watch out the window so he had a reminder that he had to finish the whole job.

That was why it so uncomfortable to deal with. To her it was a simple science, "those people are a litle different, so you have to treat them a little differently, but never be rude or unfair". Finally as a family we gave up on trying to change her views, she was a 90 year old strong-willed lady, who was good at heart anyway,(and who wants to fight with grandma) but I always wished there were some way to just reprogram her.
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Old 08-15-2000, 03:15 PM
Miss Creant Miss Creant is offline
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I have a question. Why does it seem that the Black community hates the Jews? We didn't have plantations. Besides Whoopi, I have yet to meet an Black American (this is to clarify; Ethiopian Jews can be and are Black) with a Jewish last name.

Here we are, two of the most put upon, oppressed people,
I don't get why we can't get it together and support each other. It boggles the mind.

By the way, for Mom: a clarification on Orthodox Jews
Most Orthodox Jews are people who keep kosher, go to temple regularly, keep the sabbath...much like you regular going church folk. I myself am Reform,and I would almost bet the really religious Jews would consider me just shy of a Christian.;j
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2000, 03:43 PM
zut zut is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfman
It gets even wierder when it is a non-hateful bigotry. My grandmother was always kind of wierd to talk to about race issues....
Yeah, my grandfather is the same way. He's not vituperative at all, but, in his mind, whenever anything bad happens with an African-American, it's because they're black; whenever anything good happens, it's despite that they're black. What's weird is that he's always nice and polite to Blacks he meets, and even makes an effort to use "African-American" rather than "Negro" when speaking. And, of course, pretty much all his personal experiences with African-Americans have been positive: the hard-working guys he used to work with, the polite, on-time kid that delivers his newspaper, the helpful checkout clerks. But none of those experiences changes his basic beliefs about race. I love my grandfather dearly, but he does have this mile-wide flaw that's hard to overlook.
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Old 08-15-2000, 04:36 PM
LouisB LouisB is offline
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My father is an equal opportunity hater. Blacks, Jews, Latins of any nation, all Orientals, any "foreigner" and most WASPs. If you are a WASP, he will consider that you might be okay but he knows in his heart that you are not.

I grew up in Texas. I remember "colored only" restrooms, waiting rooms, and water fountains. I remember blacks having to sit in the back of the bus and give up their seats to any white that demanded it. I remember segregation and all its injustices. Dallas did not begin to integrate its schools until I was a senior.

My parents hired a black woman to babysit me, starting when I was about four years old. She was a woman that my mother and father had known for most of their lives. Aunt Frances taught me to read before I started school. She taught me good manners. She taught me tolerance. She kissed my scraped knees and made them well, she sang to me, she made treats for me and she basically treated me like her own child until I was about ten. Then she died and my parents would not allow me to attend her funeral because there would be nothing but "niggers" there. It had never occurred to me that she was anything less than a member of our family, even if she didn't live with us.

From that time on, I have never understood prejudice or racism. I have never been able to understand how anyone can be hated and mistreated based solely on their color or national orign. I refuse to listen when people use ethnic slurs. I ask them to refrain and if they do not, I leave.

I am a big disappointment to my parents.
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Old 08-15-2000, 05:04 PM
tatertot tatertot is offline
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My mother is prejudiced against black people. She's never thought highly of them, but when a black man got my sister pregnant and didn't take any responsibility for the baby, it got worse. Now she's taking care of her half-black granddaugher, yet still she talks about how black people are lazy and lack morals. Thank goodness she has enough sense not to say these things in front of my niece.

Thing is, she really loves her granddaughter. My mom isn't a bad person and I know in my heart that she would do anything she could to help any person of any race. It's hard to explain, but it hurts me that such a good person has this terrible flaw.

We're all pretty uncomfortable about this, but at this point all we can say is "Mom" in that tone of voice that tells her we don't approve. It's good to know that my son and niece are being raised differently and this cycle will end. (We've also got KKK members on Hubby's side, and my niece's other grandparents won't have anything to do with her because of her race).
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Old 08-15-2000, 05:07 PM
tatertot tatertot is offline
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I forgot to say that Louis's story reminded me of my father. He also had a black nanny/housekeeper when he was growing up. When he graduated from high school it was a very big deal that she was invited and his friends were shocked when my father gave her a big, public hug afterwards.

Isn't it wonderful how people can rise above their upbringing?
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Old 08-15-2000, 05:49 PM
iampunha iampunha is offline
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My great-grandmother was bigoted in that she hated anyone who wasn't her exact race . . .which was Irish. So she married someone I think was German or Prussian . . .

Her son-in-law had an affair with a black woman that (that being the affair) produced a boy . . . she loathed both of them. Wouldn't tolerate them being in the same house with her. She pretty much hated anyone who wasn't purely white, and from what I hear didn't think too highly of my grandfather.

But she evidently also hated children . . . I shudder to think what she'd be like if she knew some of my relatives. Two cousins, in particular, who have a black wife and black gf between them.
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Old 08-15-2000, 05:51 PM
eyor eyor is offline
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I read your thread this morning, and was glad that my mother wasn't prejudiced against any groups of people, as she is deeply religious and very open minded and everything.
But this afternoon my grandma invited me over for tea. Then I remembered that she was *very* prejudiced. But it seems kind of odd to me, as she doesn't exactly hate certain groups of people, but overgeneralizes what she hears about individuals.
She started telling stories about how she used to work at a hotel. Then she said that the chef there was greek, and how he seemed kind of tempermental. So then she says, 'Oh but you know who those Greeks are, they'd just as soon cut your head off as talk to you', or something nutty like that.
Then, later on, I think she was talking about another person that was Greek, and was intelligent. So she says, 'Those Greeks, they're intelligent people. Y'know?'.
Sometimes its kind of funny, like when she was telling me about the time she worked at a candy store:
'And sometimes people would come in and talk to me. There was this one woman who would come in every week. She looked like she might be a school teacher. She was always saying something to me. I suspect she must have always been drunk, you know, the kind of person who would go out to a pub on the weekends, y'know? No doubt she was always out hittin the bars, having something to drink. I suspect she was a school teacher.'
And she went on like that, seemingly creating random ideas, as all she could deduce was that the woman was talkative and liked candy. Yet obviously, according to my gramma, she was an alcoholic school teacher who enjoyed visiting pubs on saturdays.
maybe grammas just senile. anyhow, you really need to meet my gramma to know what I mean. and when she starts talking about those squirrels...'BOLD as BRASS they are! unbelievable the way they just go up and eat that bird seed, uh? Bold as brass!!!'
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Old 08-15-2000, 06:00 PM
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This seems to be part of human nature - classify everyone, and create a list of priorities from best to worst. Everyone does this, some based on race or skin color, religion, sexual prientation, etc.

People who have themselves been oppressed are quite capable amd willing to turn around and do the same to others. Family members close to me are always talking about this race or that, using names I can't mention here. Yet they have had to leave the land where they were born (partly) to get away from similar racism. Incredible. They feel superiority based on their race. Well, if the race is so great, why didn't you stick it out in the other place and take over? Hmmm? What stopped you?

I can't do the number described by some previous posters though, and get rude and crude with them. I prefer instead the gentle tug in the right direction, and the clear message that I disagree. The generation that most expresses this view will pass on, and the kids are definately not getting those values.

Oh, to let some of you know who may not have been out of the US much - there are many countries in the world where racial differences and stereo types are openly professed. I'll name a few countries I've been to where I've seen this: Israel, Russia/Ukraine, Germany, Mexico. No hesitation on the part of various people to slam various others when they think they are among those with similar views.

Fighting Ignorance will take longer that anyone thought, maybe forever.


PS - I don't think we are more polarized that in previous times. Rather, it's become more acceptable to recognize this as a problem for our society and talk about it. Also, there are a fwe in the public spotlight who make this more of an issue.
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Old 08-15-2000, 06:19 PM
pepperlandgirl pepperlandgirl is offline
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I thank God everyday my parents are not racist in anyway (At least not that I know of). My BF is black, hispanic, and Paiute Indian. But my grandparents....that's another story. When my dad's parents found out that me and my BF sleep in the same bed, they FREAKED OUT. And grandma said "I don't want you to be around that nigger." Do you realize what that did to me? I was floored. I left their house, drove home, crying. We never brought it up again, and they have grown a bit more accepting of him. But one time, my grandfather, right in front of BF, referred to the Indians in the casino in Mammoth CA "Those damn thieving Indians." I almost died. All of my BF's family lives up there. But we didn't say anything about it then.
My mom's mother is like other examples. She's not racist, she just doesn't know any better. She once said to my BF "Why is your name Jaime? After your dad's people?" That's just the tip of the iceburg, but he quickly learned that my grandmother didn't mean anything offensive by comments like that.
Though my uncle once said "Well, once you forget Jaime is black, he's a pretty decent guy."

I don't talk to my family much anymore. I don't want to. And when we get married, all of them are going to shit. That's why I am eloping and I don't plan on inviting any of them.
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Old 08-15-2000, 09:29 PM
Miss Creant Miss Creant is offline
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Originally posted by LouisB


From that time on, I have never understood prejudice or racism. I have never been able to understand how anyone can be hated and mistreated based solely on their color or national orign. I refuse to listen when people use ethnic slurs. I ask them to refrain and if they do not, I leave.

I am a big disappointment to my parents.
[/B]
Well Louis, I'm proud of you! And so are my parents. You are what we call a mensch!;j
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Old 08-15-2000, 09:57 PM
Powerful B O Powerful B O is offline
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My parents are also bigots of the more benign strain. They get along just famously with an African-American friend of my uncle -- they practically consider him part of the family. And for years they passed our hand-me-down clothes on to a not-so-well-off black family, the late father of which used to be a maintenance man at at apartment complex we lived at years ago. However, they are also the type who pretty much openly state that they don't mind black people, it's the n*****s that they can't stand (yeah, I know, Chris Rock was funny as hell when he said that, but I think that when he did so, he validated the feelings of a lot of borderline racists). It's that kind of doublethink that I find so perplexing. And my sister -- Holy Christ, she thinks it's a real insult to call me the N-word. And she thinks it's hilarious to refer to black children as "niglets", which always makes me want to disavow any shared genetic material between us.

But they're amateur racists compared to my wife's aunt and uncle, whose son knocked up a black woman, and who have since then refused to acknowledge his or their mixed-race grandson's very existence, solely because of the race thing. <sigh>
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Old 08-15-2000, 09:59 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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My parents are pretty cool: they don't judge off hand.
HOWEVER...occassionally, my dad will talk about a man who is Jewish, and he says, typical Jew, or something like that.
But like my mom always says, she'd rather me be with a black guy who treated me like a princess than a white guy who beat me.
(and vice versa.)
My grandparents can be racist, although not to people's faces...
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Old 08-15-2000, 10:12 PM
Persephone Persephone is offline
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Quote:
I have never been able to understand how anyone can be hated and mistreated based solely on their color or national orign
Neither do I. I just do not get it.

I remember once when I was about eight years old, the girl who lived next door to me at the time used the "N" word. I asked her what that was, and she said "Oh, it's just another word for a black person." I used it at home a little while later. The result was the longest, toughest lecture I've ever received that was NOT followed by a spanking or grounding. My parents understood that I was simply ignorant, so they couldn't really punish me. But I was not allowed to hang around that girl anymore.

I was raised in a "content of the character" household. Race is the last thing I see, and when I do see it, it's just another physical identifier, like hair & eye color.

My husband is a blues musician, and we live in Flint, MI, which is (when last I heard, anyway) 66% African-American. My kids will grow up surrounded by the African-American culture. It is in their lives every single day. I will do my best to explain to them what I know of it, and encourage them to ask others the questions that I cannot answer. They will be educated with and by people of many other cultures. This is good. On top of that, I'm a pagan, my husband is Christian, and my mom's SO is Jewish. Her religious experience will be rich as well. My kids are going to be either really, really well-rounded, or really, really confused! I hope I can do a good job of making them the former.
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Old 08-15-2000, 10:19 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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When I was young, I never thought about it. IN fact, calling people black and white seemed silly to me, I always said, "No, Mummy, we're peach and brown."
But now that I am older, I do notice it...I keep worrying that I'll say the wrong thing...society puts the racism into you.
I will say that I think EVERYONE is racist...to a degree, not that we think anyone is inferior, more just that we seem to notice race more. The question is: what do we DO about it?
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  #31  
Old 08-15-2000, 11:10 PM
APB9999 APB9999 is offline
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My grandmother has never said anything overtly racist; I guess I'm lucky. Poor Roman Catholic grandma! Of her first three daughters, one married a Palestinian Moslem, one married an Iraqi moslem, and one married a Jew from California. I guess she learned to be open minded. She's 93 now, so I guess it's pretty impressive to have grown up in her generation and avoided the usual bigotry of the society of her day.
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  #32  
Old 08-15-2000, 11:56 PM
LilCutie LilCutie is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by shay519
I have a question. Why does it seem that the Black community hates the Jews? We didn't have plantations. Besides Whoopi, I have yet to meet an Black American (this is to clarify; Ethiopian Jews can be and are Black) with a Jewish last name.

The Black community is a big one. I'm black, and I've never heard of Black hating Jews. So really, you can't say "the black community" that's including alot of people, who may not know what you're talking about. Now I know personally, I can't quite tell sometimes, but I have Jewish friends. I have ALLL types of friends, because I love everyone. But my grandmother once said, "the Jewish people went through hell just like we did, and yet they act like they are above us." I don't know where she got that from. But.... must have been somewhere.

My family is from Bermuda. And according to them, racism wasn't a big problem when they were young. But when they came to the States, and were treated so horribly, and hated even more for their British accents, a dislike for the white race overcame them. But.... they got over it. They are just more cautious to the intentions of some whitre people. But it's all love for me


Jenny*
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  #33  
Old 08-16-2000, 07:16 AM
zut zut is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by shay519
I have a question. Why does it seem that the Black community hates the Jews?...
Actually, I listened to a story on NPR on the way home yesterday about this very same issue (download it here). Part of the answer is the old generalization thing: Some particularly prominent Afican-Americans have made anti-Semitic remarks, and that gets generalized to the notion that the Black community as a whole dislikes Jews. Untrue, of course. Another part is that some early civil rights leaders felt that their Jewish counterparts were being paternalistic. Another part, I'm sure, stems from the same illogical reasons that whites have for being anti-Semitic.
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  #34  
Old 08-16-2000, 07:23 AM
LouisB LouisB is offline
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But they're amateur racists compared to my wife's aunt and uncle, whose son knocked up a black woman, and who have since then refused to acknowledge his or their mixed-race grandson's very existence, solely because of the race thing.
One of my nieces married a divorced man. The guy had a couple of daughters from his first marriage, one of whom has a black child. She also has had some serious drug problems. Her child is as cute as a button and is as sweet as she can be. The woman herself seems to have overcome her drug addiction and is trying very hard to provide a decent life for her child.

My father will not allow the woman in his house, with or without the child, because she is a "n****r loving junkie whore" and the child is a "mongrel." He will not attend any family function which includes this woman, for the reasons given before.

My father is ninety years old, a professed Christian who truly expects to find himself in an all-white, racially pure heaven in the near future. The saddest thing, to me, is that he cannot see the contradictions between Christianity and racism.
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  #35  
Old 08-16-2000, 07:52 AM
Amthystre Amthystre is offline
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Oh man. Well (some of) my family still uses the N word even though I have one niece who is African American and a nephew who is Egyptian (they also use the term Sand N). When I call em on it they have no shame and they love my niece and nephew. I just so don't get it.
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  #36  
Old 08-16-2000, 11:26 AM
JimmyNipples JimmyNipples is offline
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Originally posted by LouisB
Then she died and my parents would not allow me to attend her funeral because there would be nothing but "niggers" there.



I am a big disappointment to my parents.

Good...I'm glad you disappoint them.


My heart sank when I read that you weren't allowed to go to the funeral.
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  #37  
Old 08-16-2000, 01:29 PM
Feynn Feynn is offline
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I was playing with a couple of my friends when I was about seven years old, Merv was caucasian and the other (Ben) was East Indian. Merv's mother told he and I later that she didn't want us bringing that "black boy" over anymore...

I was really confused since my friend Ben wasn't black so I went home and asked my mom what the heck Merv's mom was talking about. She explained what racism and prejudice were to me and simplified it by saying "some people are just ignorant". I didn't like Merv's mother after that and still think that my mother is one of the wisest people I know.

I told Merv what my mom told me because he was equally confused by his mother, we kept playing with Ben although never at Merv's house.

Merv has turned out to be about as non-racist as they come and I often joke that I am the only white person in my house as Lola is Metis and our kids are a bunch of beautiful little "mongrels".
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  #38  
Old 08-16-2000, 01:48 PM
Miss Creant Miss Creant is offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LilCutie
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by shay519
I have a question. Why does it seem that the Black community hates the Jews? We didn't have plantations. Besides Whoopi, I have yet to meet an Black American (this is to clarify; Ethiopian Jews can be and are Black) with a Jewish last name.

The Black community is a big one. I'm black, and I've never heard of Black hating Jews. So really, you can't say "the black community" that's including alot of people, who may not know what you're talking about. Now I know personally, I can't quite tell sometimes, but I have Jewish friends. I have ALLL types of friends, because I love everyone. But my grandmother once said, "the Jewish people went through hell just like we did, and yet they act like they are above us." I don't know where she got that from. But.... must have been somewhere.

I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement which is why I wrote "why does it SEEM" but that's still to general
Sorry. I need to be more specific.
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  #39  
Old 08-16-2000, 01:52 PM
Miss Creant Miss Creant is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by zut
Quote:
Originally posted by shay519
I have a question. Why does it seem that the Black community hates the Jews?...
Actually, I listened to a story on NPR on the way home yesterday about this very same issue (download it here). Part of the answer is the old generalization thing: Some particularly prominent Afican-Americans have made anti-Semitic remarks, and that gets generalized to the notion that the Black community as a whole dislikes Jews. Untrue, of course. Another part is that some early civil rights leaders felt that their Jewish counterparts were being paternalistic. Another part, I'm sure, stems from the same illogical reasons that whites have for being anti-Semitic.
I still don't get it. Logic would seem to dictate that the two most oppressed peoples on the planet would join forces. Course we're talking human nature, not logic
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  #40  
Old 08-16-2000, 03:02 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Actually, logic would dictate that we're ALL human, I would hope, and could accept people as they are.
Funny...
You know where I learned about the N word?
From a teacher, only this was NOT a bad way.
See, we were talking about how we should know what a word means before we use it-because we could end up REALLY saying something nasty. Apparently, a student had told her about Mexican "wetbacks" that morning, and the student thought it just meant a regular Mexican person. So then, she explained about how Blacks used to be called Negros. Then, she said, "And then SOME people started calling them N****s, which wasn't very nice. And I don't want ANY of you using that term!"
Funny, she was from the backwood mountains, and this was an almost ALL white Catholic school.
Like, I said, when my mom said blacks when I was little, I'd be like, "But they're not BLACK, Mummy, they're BROWN."
To me, it wasn't being nasty. I just thought, well, they just have darker skin, that's all. And I'm not WHITE, I'm peachish....
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  #41  
Old 08-16-2000, 03:54 PM
Stuffy Stuffy is offline
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My stepdad was a racist. He hated all white people, which was really odd cause his mother was white (well jewish anyway, but looked white to me). I remember him picking me up from school when I was around 8 or so. He pulled into a gas station ans sat waiting while other custoemrs pulled in and out. This was in the early 70s, a self serve pupmshad just started coming to the motor city.

He didn't realize we were sitting in the only self serve island. He yelling how all these this and thats are being racist for not helping him. When another black guy came over and pointed out to him where we were, he just went on cursing. I was trying my hardest to become invisible.

I have brothers that are homophobic and racist too. I don't spend a whole lot of time around my family anymore.
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  #42  
Old 08-16-2000, 04:14 PM
Ceejaytee Ceejaytee is offline
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My parents were (are?) racists of the "oh but <insert name here> is an exception" school. You know, blacks are lazy, stupid criminals except for my friends, whom they just loved. I was told that if I hung out with my black female friends I would wind up marrying a black guy. Well, I wound up engaged to a black man but I married a Jew.

I'm not sure if they are still racist, although I have heard them both say some intolerant things. Their daughters are really making it difficult for them--one of my sisters married a Puerto Rican and now lives in PR and my other sister married a Hawaiian/Filipino.

When I got married, I had a non-traditional wedding with lots of prayers in Hebrew. My mom was convinced that my dad would make nasty comments (they're divorced) because he doesn't like Jews. My mom is Jewish and he doesn't like Jews and he married her. Weird family.

My maternal grandmother really liked my paternal grandfather, even though he was from Germany and she hated Germans. I gave her that one--she lost family in the Holocaust and I wasn't about to lecture an Eastern-Eurpean Jew who hated Germans about tolerance. But she had a lot of intolerant attitudes about blacks, hispanics, name another minority here. But I loved her anyway.
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  #43  
Old 08-16-2000, 06:35 PM
Ike Witt Ike Witt is offline
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First I must say that I was in a decent mood until I read this thread. It causes a pain in my soul to know that there is still so much hatred in this world. My guess is that if you confront a biggot and ask why they hate any group, they will most likely spout stereotypes that are decades, if not centuries old.

There is somethings in this thread that make me feel a little better. Since hate is usually learned from the parents, it is nice to see that some posters have broken that chain.

Needs2know, I am glad that you took time to be with your daughter and point out that your own mother has this one serious flaw. For what it is worth, you seem to doing the right thing with your kids.
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  #44  
Old 08-16-2000, 07:02 PM
Cervaise Cervaise is offline
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My family isn't racist, exactly; we've got a pretty diverse racial background. My father's father is half Cherokee, my father's mother is Mexican. On my mother's side, they're pretty white-bread, but my uncle married a Vietnamese woman, so we've got a whole branch of Asian descent. I remember when I was very young, and unthinkingly used the "N-word," my mother firmly corrected me.

There are, however, two places where what she said didn't match with her behavior, and I notice its effect in my own worldview.

First, although my mom verbally expresses racial views that are firmly in the progressive mainstream, neither she nor anyone in my family actually has any black friends. She certainly meant well in what she tried to teach me, but there were never any African-Americans around, whether it was from her job, or my school (the Pacific Northwest is fairly white, and the smaller town I grew up in is more so), or her social circle (she's a square dancer; if there's a whiter activity I don't know what it is). It's the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing; she was saying the right words, but wasn't fully backing them up.

Second, she could be casually patronizing about other minorities. Back when I was in my early teens, she spent a fair amount of time going clubbing, i.e. drinking and dancing and socializing and basically trying to have a "normal" life after she divorced my father. I have a clear memory of one conversation, where she was talking about how much fun she was having; she described going to one place (Lee's, now long closed), sitting in a corner booth, and watching "the gay guys" kissing each other. I was thrown for a loop: The way she talked, it was like she was going to the zoo or something. I called her on it, too, because it rubbed me wrong. Being a dumb kid, I probably wasn't very clear; I couldn't express why her description seemed off to me. She got defensive, and I dropped it, and that was the end of it. The topic has never come up again.

Put these two together, and you get a subtle "they" and "them" attitude that subconsciously undercut all the well-meaning lessons she had attempted to impart. Although on the surface she was trying to teach me what she knew was right, there was still, deep down, a separatist lifestyle that I picked up on. When I moved to Seattle, I noticed some race-based judgements creeping into my own world, primarily because my upbringing had never given me any alternatives, and I had to work really hard to identify them and root them out. Even now, if I'm walking downtown late at night, and a couple of young black urban-outfitted guys turn the corner a ways off and come walking toward me, I still get an instantaneous flash of "uh-oh, them" before I'm able to grab a hold of the feeling and toss it away. It embarrasses me to admit it, as much to myself as on the board, but I have to be totally honest if I want any hope of positive evolution.

I knew I had made progress when someone a couple of years ago challenged me on this, and asked me if I had any minority friends. I blinked, and said, in all honesty, "I don't know." After I thought about it, I recalled that a good friend in my college graduating class, with whom I still exchange e-mail occasionally (he's moved away from Seattle), is black, and my best friend in Seattle, my regular moviegoing companion, is a black Puerto Rican. I felt justifiably pleased with myself at not having remembered them as being black right away, because it meant I'd made progress from the unfortunate place where I had started. Then I remembered that I myself am a quarter Hispanic and an eighth Cherokee, and I realized I should have answered, "Yeah, I know a minority -- me." Then I felt stupid for getting trapped into a stupid line of conversation, and not realizing it.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and although I would hardly claim to be perfect, I do know this -- When I get to raise kids of my own, the lesson will be very simple: "There is no them."
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  #45  
Old 08-16-2000, 07:52 PM
Nicki Nicki is offline
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My mother is terribly homophobic. She is voting for Bush for chrissakes <retch> anyway, when i was 16 i had a friend, a guy, who was gay whom i loved very dearly. well, she found out about him, and went off, in a restaurant, about how she didn't want me hanging out with any (insert long list of stereotypes and disparaging remarks here). when i stood up for him, she kicked me out of the house. she eventually let me back in, and we still occassionally talk about gay rights without any hurt feelings, but i mostly avoid mentioning any gay friends (i really love the look on her face though). the funny thing is that she chose a lesbian for my godmother. ?
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  #46  
Old 08-16-2000, 08:05 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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There was a girl I worked with who was Jewish, but her mom was CAtholic...technically.
Her father was Jewish. Her mother's mother was originally Jewish, but married a CAtholic man and converted. Their children were raised Catholic, and my friend's mom married a Jewish man.
They celebrated BOTH the Jewish and Christian holidays. And they're the nicest people. It's very interesting to see, that cultures and religion CAN blend.
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  #47  
Old 08-16-2000, 08:42 PM
Miss Creant Miss Creant is offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by stuffinb
[B]My stepdad was a racist. He hated all white people, which was really odd cause his mother was white (well jewish anyway, but looked white to me).


um...Judaism is a religion, not a race.
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  #48  
Old 08-16-2000, 09:56 PM
chique chique is offline
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I've thought long and hard about posting this because I'm a little worried about what's going to come back to me, but here goes.......

I grew up in a small, very white town in central Minnesota. The year I graduated high school an African-American family moved into our school district, the first and, as far as I know, only. That was the second time I had ever interacted with blacks.

The first time requires a little background.

While growing up I do not recall anyone in my family being overtly racist. I do recall a few racist jokes and the "N" word spoken once or twice during TV sporting events; most of the time my mother put a stop to it if we kids were around.

When I was about 16, shortly after my gramma became housebound and could no longer make it to church, a couple from her church came to visit. They happened to be black, at that time the only blacks I had ever met. I had spent that afternoon at the farm, like I usually did. My father came up to start chores and, seeing an unfamiliar car in the yard, came in the house to see who was there. He took a few steps into the house, saw that couple, and turned around and left without a word. Gramma was obviously embarrassed, and so I was, as well. That night after milking I asked Mom what the hell that was all about.

In 1969 - about 25 years earlier - my father took a bus trip from Jacksonville, FL home to Minnesota, with a stop in Chicago. The only thing he's ever said about that trip is that from Jax to Chi he was the only white boy on the bus.

A good excuse? Probably not, but a reason, and perhaps even a valid one.

FWIW, I later joined the Navy, went to bootcamp, have been stationed in places where minorities are the majority, have been to some colleges, had non-white co-workers and friends and drinking buddies and sleeping partners and roommates and ...etc etc etc.

The only conclusion I've come to is that ANYONE who is too much of anything (too Repulican, too Liberal, too religious, too hard-core drinking, too nutty about animal rights, too racist) drives me up the wall.
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  #49  
Old 08-17-2000, 08:24 AM
IzzyR IzzyR is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by zut
Quote:
Originally posted by shay519
I have a question. Why does it seem that the Black community hates the Jews?...
Actually, I listened to a story on NPR on the way home yesterday about this very same issue (download it here). Part of the answer is the old generalization thing: Some particularly prominent Afican-Americans have made anti-Semitic remarks, and that gets generalized to the notion that the Black community as a whole dislikes Jews. Untrue, of course.
Actualy there is, unfortunately, an enormous amount of truth in this generalization.
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