I saw a US soldier carrying what appeared to be a 12 ga shotgun in Iraq on the news. I know that there used to be a military version of the Winchester 1897 pump with a bayonet lug. Are shotguns issued to US troops now?
They always have been, for special situations. These days, they use them primarily for entry: blowing off hinges and doorlocks, for instance.
I imagine a shotgun could be considered of somewhat limited use as an anti-personel weapon in modern urban warfare as well. Very limited use against someone in body armor should you encounter one, limited range against someone shooting at you from down the street, and limited accuracy (plus the spread if you’s using shot instead of slugs) increases the chance of collateral damage. OTOH, a shotgun would also make an excellent skeleton key, blowing large holes through the space previously occupied by a door’s hinges and locks as mentioned by silenus. ISTR that one of the add-ons available for the M4 Carbine (and maybe the M-16, I’m not sure) is a 12 guage breaching shotgun, designed in a fashion similar to that of the 40mm grenade launcher they also sometimes carry (one shell in the chamber, no magazine, reload after every shot).
I’ve heard (from a Scoutmaster who loved pulling my leg, mind you) that they also have belt-fed fully-auto shotguns for perimeter defense purposes.
Here’s the US military’s new 12ga semiauto combat shotgun, the Benelli M4 S90:
http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/m4.tpl
It was on “Mail Call” a few months ago.
Raguleader, I’d bet that your scoutmaster was indeed yanking your leg. Here’s an automatic shotgun:
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm
But for point defense I don’t see why something like a .50 M2 machinegun wouldn’t be better - longer range, punches through armor and cover, been around for 60+ years and they’ve got tons of 'em. I’m not a gun expert but I’ve never heard of an actual belt-fed shotgun (IIRC there are belt-fed grenade launchers, and there are cannister rounds for them, that’s close I guess).
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- The US military does issue shotguns but I couldn’t find any current info online that I’d consider accurate right off. In the past two types used were the Winchester 1300-series and the Mossberg 590 series; these have been very popular with US police departments as well. These are pump-action shotguns; I don’t know what the general thought is now but a Vietnam-era vet told me that pumps were much preferred back then, as the gas-operated semi-auto shotguns did not work well when dirty, and keeping them clean was not always easily possible.
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- The US military does issue shotguns but I couldn’t find any current info online that I’d consider accurate right off. In the past two types used were the Winchester 1300-series and the Mossberg 590 series; these have been very popular with US police departments as well. These are pump-action shotguns; I don’t know what the general thought is now but a Vietnam-era vet told me that pumps were much preferred back then, as the gas-operated semi-auto shotguns did not work well when dirty, and keeping them clean was not always easily possible.
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- I never heard of a belt-fed shotgun being produced. A couple companies do make belt-fed grenade launchers, but I don’t recall seeing any such shotgun.
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I have two brothers on active duty with the USMC, and both have described a fully automatic shotgun that’s primarily used with non lethal rounds for crowd control. However, I just called my brother who’s home on leave and he said that it has been successfully utilized as an anti-personnel weapon when loaded with buckshot as well. I should also mention he says that these are not exactly standard issue, but they are available.
I swear Ive seen pictures of a beltfed shotgun… but it seemed to me that the belt was very small/short and only held 10 or so rounds… Maybe I am thinking of a grenade launcher.
Something like this?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19a3-2.jpg
That’s a Mark 19 automatic grenade launcher. Fires 40mm grenades. I know that there was a “buckshot” round for the M79, I think that the old-style 40mm rounds will work in the Mk19, but it is designed for a newer type of round and I didn’t see an antipersonnel round like that for it.
However the high explosive rounds will evidently kill people 5m away and injure to 15m.
Tunnel rats in 'Nam liked shotguns, since you didn’t have to worry about trying to aim the thing in a dark, confined space. No doubt they’re proving just as usefull in any tunnels that might be in Iraq. Soldiers are allowed to suppliment their standard gear, provided it doesn’t violate things like the various Conventions and will prove effective at helping them doing. IIRC, they even get compensation from the government for those items.
That is a great link.
Wow.
I was in construction in VN (Seabees). Many guys preferred a 12 GA. pump when working in indian country, primarily for the intimidation factor. My choice was an M-1 Carbine, small, light and more firepower. There was a “fleshette” antipersonnel round for the M-79, it contained a number of tiny metal “arrows”. The problem w/ the 79 was that the rounds required several meters to arm themselves, so that, in close combat, it was more like an oversized shotgun slug.
Not very effective since it was a single round breechloader.
I went to college with a guy who did a tour in the USMC in Beirut? Hmmm…can’t remember - late 80’s. He showed me his shotgun that he carried- wow. Nasty looking thing. It was 12ga., semi-auto, but had a little switch that I remember being for a 2 or 3 round burst (but I could be remembering this wrong). He had the coolest stock I’ve ever seen- a fold-out arm with a under-hook on the end. the under-hook would rest just in front of the elbow from below. It made it easy to hold the thing in one hand. In fact, it was amazingly easy to hold it and move it around, and I’m not the world’s strongest guy. I stood in front of a mirror and had visions of Terminator going. Neat thing. I suspect that if it did have aburst function it would blown itself upwards in only one hand- 1st shot level, 2nd pointing a foot up, 3rd striaght up.
-Tcat
So are these just the 2 3/4" ? I would think they would go for the 3" mag.
Gotcha ya. Thanks.
It is sad to hear that the first link has this to say:
Bolding mine.
And the second link tells me that this [Benelli M1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun] is the weapon we are giving our guys to carry. I hope this is something the military does not take too long to correct.
The one I saw looked like my Mossberg save it was black including the forearm, had a military sling and a short barrel.
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- There have been a number of companies that have made box-magazine-fed defense/military shotguns through the years, the most recent on the US civilian market was the Saiga shotguns that EAA used to import–these were AK-47-style rifles chambered in shotgun calibers, complete with detachable box magazines. Their importation was stopped as a matter of business circumstances–the guns are not illegal and didn’t cost much.
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- The practical problem with such guns is always the same–a box-fed shotgun is by nature a heavy and bulky arm that despite its box-magazine, really doesn’t store very many shots–10 or 12 is the practical maximum. So most police/soldiers find that it is better overall so use a conventional tube-magazine shotgun with a lower magazine capacity for special circumstances, but also to carry a regular rifle for the rest of the time. In a SWAT team for example, one or two people may be armed with shotguns but the rest will have rifles or submachineguns. If they are entering a situation where the shotguns have an advantage, then the shotgun-carrying members lead that part.
- Interesting, as I mentioined earlier–the Vietnam vet fellow told me that semi-auto shotguns don’t work when they’re dirty. And that was ~40 years ago…
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