I live in an area outside Atlanta with a very large Korean immigrant population (I am of northern european derivation). I’ve developed a fondness for Korean food and there are a couple of large Korean supermarkets at which I like to shop. My observations of the Korean customers leads me to think that Koreans have a different standard of public courtesy than do most westerners. I’ve had Koreans run into me with shopping carts and elbow me out of the way without an “excuse me” or any other sort of aknowledgement. They treat each other the same way so I don’t think they’re rude to me for any racial reason. I had a flight attendant friend who regularly worked Asian routes and she disliked flying into Seoul because the people there were so rude to her.
What’s the deal with all that? Is discourtesy a part of Korean culture?
I ask this because it’s widely believed that a culture’s accepted “personal space” diminishes as population density increases. Americans like a lot, Australians and Canadians expect a freakin’ huge amount, and many Asians expect little or none. In Hong Kong, the first thing you learn is that if you look offended when somebody bumps into you, they’ll think you’re weird.
I remember in the early 80s when large scale SE Asian migration to Australia was in its early stages, I was standing alone at a huge, deserted bus station. A Vietnamese girl came up the escalator from the railway and walked up to me. I was expecting her to ask me something, but when she got to me, she came well inside my personal space and just stood there. I was a bit creeped out by this. Then I looked at her and saw she wasn’t paying the slightest attention to me. In her view, she was just waiting for a bus.
I’ve seen a similar thing with traffic in Ho Chi Minh City and Bangkok. There is an incredible amount of pushing other cars out of the way, cutting people off, dangerous lane changing, and of course everyone just leans on the horn the whole time, Italian-style. But nobody gets upset. There is no offence given or received by any of this driving style, any lone example of which, in the West, would get the bird flipped at you.
I saw much the same thing when I was in Japan last summer. While absolutely gracious in one-on-one situations, the behavior in public places completely astounded me.
If you fall down on a sidewalk in Tokyo, 10,000 people will carefully step over you, but otherwise ignore you. In New York City, some would try to help, some would yell at you to get up and move and some would try to take your wallet, but you wouldn’t be ignored.
There is an incredible amount of pushing other cars out of the way, cutting people off, dangerous lane changing, and of course everyone just leans on the horn the whole time, Italian-style.
[/QUOTE]
That would be the standard mode of driving in Seoul. A number of foreigners refer to the horn as “Korean brakes.” What’s scary is the way bus drivers drive.
Let’s try that again. (Can’t believe I missed that on preview, :wally.)
Very.
That would be the standard mode of driving in Seoul. A number of foreigners refer to the horn as “Korean brakes.” What’s scary is the way bus drivers drive.
That reminds me of the last time I was in Korea. My Uncle drove down the street for about two blocks, straddling the two lanes the entire way. Red lights meant you slowed down, looked both ways, and then gunned it.
That said, I’ve never noticed any of the behaviors cited by others. I’ve been to Korea many times, Seoul and other places, and never have I been pushed or elbowed out of the way. It is crowded, however, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if it did happen.
We adopted our son from Korea, and at age two he DEFINITELY has a different standard for public courtesy.
As it was explained to us, age rules in Korea. I’d guess that most of the people shoving you out of the way were older than you–even just a little. I found the people in Seoul to be incredibly courteous and warm, often going far out of the way to be helpful with a clueless westerner. It’s easy to take the “I’m old/outta my way” thing as rudeness–especially when you’re 35 and being shoved aside by a 40 year old–but it’s just a different way of doing things. For instance, Koreans see it as rude when you hand them something with one hand.
Yeah, Seoul is pretty crowded, and what’s considered rude is a bit different here. Some people are so kind and helpful it’s kind of sad, and others are, at least by my standards, very rude. There’s a Korean saying that identifies Koreans as “the courteous people in the East,” and I’ve sometimes wondered where that saying came from–especially since it apparently dates from the Hermit Kingdom period, when no one knew much about Korea.
Age can have something to do with it too. Ajummas (middle-aged Korean women) are notoriously pushy when fighting for a seat on the subway and such. Truly old people are naturally given a little slack–last weekend I saw an old man totter up to the front of a line of people waiting for the subway, and no one said anything. Then a school-aged kid tried to do likewise, and a man in the line told him to bugger off, which he did without complaint.
I use the subways here quite a bit, and through most of this year I was on either crutches or a cane, recovering from a broken knee. I’m 48 and completely gray. During that time, not once did a teenager offer me a seat on a subway, but old people did constantly. Not people my age, but really old people. I never accepted, of course, but I almost had to fight to decline. I don’t judge the teenagers too hard, though. They’re mostly half asleep from spending all their time in school.
Try not to take it personally when they push you aside. I think it means they like you.
Korean culture is very different from that of the West. As already mentioned, there is a strong respect for age, and for tradition. I suppose that is Confucianism.
Also consider the case of the Korean boxer at the Olympics. He objected to a ruling and simply sat in the ring until … well for a long time, forcing other bouts to be postponed. What about the Korean scientist who recently faked data. Did he think nobody would ever notice?
Consider the number of cults and strongmen in Korean history.
I am an English teacher. People like me are much in demand in Korea. Everyone who has been there remarks how very different it is from the West.
Yep, in Korea there is very little space. You bump into people all the time. Getting elbowed, or someone stepping on your toes is common. They don’t do it on purpose, it is just so crowded that it happens. Also they find you wierd if you try to appologize for bumping into them.
I will second the driving thing. I am glad I am not high enough rank to get a car. Scarry enough being a passenger.
