I sold an SD card on eBay. I did not offer shipping insurance (which I regret). I did offer “Free shipping via USPS First Class mail.” I sold the memory card for $95. The buyer (I’ll call him Joe) PayPal’ed me the money, and selected First Class Mail, paying around $4 that eBay calculated as shipping costs. I immediately refunded the ~$4, as I had offered free shipping via 1st Class Mail. I wrapped the memory card (in it’s hard plastic case) in the PayPal packing slip I printed, put them into a letter envelope, and mailed the same day.
A week later, I got an e-mail from Joe saying:
There is more to this story, but before I post it I’d like to know what you would do in this situation if you were in my shoes.
I think you’re pretty much stuffed, unless you happen to have evidence that the buyer actually received the item (such as him listing it for sale on ebay). Paypal will most likely find in his favour when he does a chargeback.
Personally, I think the packaging you’re describing was inadequate.
Interesting. He admitted to receiving a damaged package, for which he did not purchase insurance. How am I liable for damage caused by the US Postal Service? Is not the buyer responsible for the item once it safely passes from my hands to the agreed upon shipping company?
Well, I don’t see that the packaging was necessarily insufficient, but as a seller it is your duty to do what the customer wants, and IMO that includes shipping preference. If the buyer paid 4 extra dollars so that you can send it to him a certain way with insurance or something, then you should have done so without refunding the money. By refunding the money and shipping it your way, you were non-vocally and maybe not even conciously, saying: I deny your request and take full responsibility for the shipping.
My opinion is that you owe him the money, ethically, because you denied his extra money to help ensure the safety of the shipping. Legally, probably not so, ethically I feel you are in the wrong.
Personally, If I bought something that I knew the seller was going to put in an envelope, I would send extra money and request they send it a more secure route with insurance. His only fault is that he sent the money without a request.
I agree 100%. He requested First Class Mail, and made no inquiries about insurance. The reason he overpaid me was because eBay automatically calculated a cost for First Class Mail even though I offered it for free.
No problem – You made a perfectly reasonable assumption.
Ok, I will post some more details now.
I sent Joe back this e-mail:
Joe didn’t want a partial refund, he wanted a full refund. He explained that he felt that as the seller it is my job to get the item safely to his hands. I don’t agree. I think it is the seller’s job to get the item safely to the agreed upon shipping company. If I was supposed to hand deliver the item, then he is correct.
We’ve had a rash of similar threads in the past few weeks…take a look, you may find them.
If I were dealing with a company, I would scream bloody murder if I paid them good money for an item which, through whoever’s fault, did not get to me in good condition. I ordered some films once through Amazon which, for unknown reasons, never came; I complained, and they sent the films again, which this time did end up getting to me. As a consumer, I would expect no less from an individual eBay seller; if I were an eBay seller, I would expect to do no less.
Yes, it’s probably the postal service’s fault (either that, or Joe is defrauding you, which is always a possibility). But as a seller, it is your responsibilty to make sure items you sell get safely to your customer. My advice is to give Joe a refund, chalk this one up as an expensive mistake, and insist on insurance in the future.
La llorona’s example is a little bit different, because Amazon is a big company and has probably budgeted a certain amount for losses attributable to damage or theft. In your case, it’s a transaction between individuals, and it comes down to a “he said, she said.” Joe doesn’t know if you tried to rip him off, you don’t know if Joe tried to rip you off, and neither of you knows whether someone in the USPS tried to rip the both of you off. I think your offer to split the loss halfway is the fairest resolution that can be offered. The seller’s insistence that you get the product into his hands may be understandable, but it’s a little unreasonable, because he’s making you accountable for the behavior of the USPS.
By the way, don’t look to insurance as a panacea. At least with the USPS, their insurance deal is pretty lousy. They take an item’s value to be what you paid for it, assuming you have the receipt. So if you buy a $10,000 Ming vase at a yard sale for $2, and it’s broken in transit, you get reimbursed $2. Even if you can document that somebody on eBay was willing to pay ten grand, the USPS doesn’t care. Other shippers may have a more generous insurance policy.
By they way, if, as seems likely, you’re forced to eat the cost, I would leave the guy a neutral feedback like, “Said he never received item; refunded his money.” I’ts not unfair to him, but if he is a ripoff artist, it may raise a bit of a red flag about him. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you can afford another negative on your feedback at this point, which would likely happen if you don’t refund him fully, or if you give him a negative.
Last week he opened disputes with both Paypal and eBay. I am fairly confident that they will find in my favor, as it is clearly a case of the item getting damaged in the mail.
I’m not too concerned about getting another negative feedback, which I’m sure will happen. After Joe opened the disputes, I told him that I would adhere to the decision(s) made by PayPal/eBay. I’m just waiting for the resolution at this point.
Again, I don’t agree with this. I have a responsibility to get the item safely to the agreed upon shipping company. This is because the buyer is responsible for choosing the shipping company, and the buyer is responsible for insuring the package. Therefore, the responsibility of the item passes to the buyer once the item is in the hands of the shipping company. There’s a term for this… I believe it’s called FOB shipping point.
I’m not saying he is a scam artist. I’m saying he got screwed by the postal service, and I’m not willing to lose $100 over it. I am willing to lose $50, because that’s what I believe to be fair.
Here’s his dispute, word for word:
He admits that he received a damaged package. He didn’t insure the package. That’s why I’m confident they’ll find for me.
IMO, insurance is for the benefit of the seller/sender, whose responsibility ends when the item is delivered in good order. The way ebay deals with insurance as a buyer option, plus the many and often strenuous disclaimers made by sellers tend to obfuscate this, but the bottom line is, you took his money in return for a promise to supply him with an SD card.
He doesn’t have the SD card, therefore, you failed - perhaps through no fault of your own, although as I said, I do think the packaging you have described is inadequate and the loss is due to your negligence, rather than just your bad luck.
I would refund his money and pursue a claim with the postal service, and in case you’re wondering about bias on my part, I am in fact primarily a seller on ebay (fb360 - 100% positive).
Nowhere in your listing did you specify FOB shipping terms; I don’t believe it is a default position, but rather, an arrangement where the buyer contractually (and explicitly) releases the seller from his responsibilities.
Here’s one of the other related threads that La Llorona talked about. I’d love to know how this one turns out.
For what it’s worth, I think refunding 50% is already doing more than you’re responsible for. Others disagree, but I haven’t yet found definitive evidence that eBay sellers – especially individuals who don’t really operate a business – are responsible for the package once it reaches a shipping company.
Personally, from a practical perspective, I always ship my packages with insurance and delivery confirmation (I pay for it if they don’t) but not because I OWE my buyers anything or because I’m ethically bound to, but just because I don’t want to risk negative feedback. If you don’t care about negative feedback, well, I hope Paypal somehow finds a fair solution for both of you. I think 50% is a good compromise but I dunno if Paypal goes halfway like that.
Unfortunately, eBay is rather unclear about the “default position”. If it just laid out – clearly and unambiguosly, with examples and such – who is responsible for what in different scenarios, we wouldn’t have this issue to start with. But it doesn’t. For the most part, it just says “work it out with each other”. The one thing it says about sending packages is that the seller must not “Fail to deliver”, but it doesn’t specify whether that means to the shipping company or all the way; it also doesn’t say what to do about lost or damaged shipments. Unless explicity stated somewhere, I just don’t think it’s reasonable to expect the same level of performance from individual eBay sellers as big commercial businesses.
By ‘default position’, I meant more in terms of the law than ebay guidelines/rules (which will not override the law) IANAL though, so maybe I’m talking out of my arse.
My understanding (from my experience as a corporate buyer, importing from the USA) is that FOB shipping is by explicit arrangement.
I think it’s actually very clear who has the responsibility - the buyer enters into a contract with the seller to exchange the goods for the money; the seller enters into an entirely separate contract with the courier, to perform delivery; if the goods are not received safely, two contracts have been broken; that between the seller and the buyer (for which refund or replacement is appropriate reparation) and that between the seller and the carrier (for which compensation to the seller is in order). As I said though, IANAL.
Mangetout, people keep saying the sellers are legally bound by so-and-so, but I’ve been hoping for an actual cite for a while. I’d look for one myself, but not being a lawyer either, I have no idea how our legal system works and where to even start looking for a cite.