What would happen if it was discovered that a president rigged an election?

Great Debates
1

What would happen if, seven years into his two terms, it was discovered that the current US president had rigged the previous two presidential elections in his favor, and that it could be determined that the real winner of both elections was someone else.

I assume that Congress could impeach the “president”, but what would happen legally to all his appointees: Supreme Court (and lesser court) justices, directors of various agencies, and so forth? What about laws that he signed?

I guess the question is: legally, what determines whether a person really holds the office of President of the United States? Is it being elected, or being sworn in? If the former, then this man never really was president, and all his appointments and laws should be invalidated. If the latter, then they’re still valid.

Also, would the vice president then become president, or would he be impeached as well? I would think that the most sensible thing to do would be to pass the presidency on to the first person untainted by this conspiracy in the chain of succession, which would be the speaker of the house.

But, what would happen if the election-rigging affected not only the presidential race, but seats in Congress as well? If the majority of the senators were unfairly elected, what would happen if they refused to impeach the president, refused to impeach themselves, and refused to resign?

Could the justice system intervene, and remove these people from office? What if the president, in the past seven years, had the opportunity to appoint five justices to the Supreme Court, and these justices refused to take the necessary action?

2

The President becomes the President when the Electoral College votes for him.

Assuming by “rigged” you mean he rigged the results of the state-wide votes, not the Electoral College, then his appointments nd all the bills he signed into law are legitimate. Certainly the Congress might impeach him, but that act would not undo any official act the president had accomplished.

Except for the Chief Justice, the Supreme Court has no involvement in the impeachment process.

The rest of your questions are so far-fteched as to be meaningless. What if a majority of Congress was involved in the vote fixing? Then I guess they’d stay in office; Congress has the sole authority to remove its own members. Presumably the states would act to ensure that the vote fixing didn’t recur, and the guilty parties would be kicked out in the next election by righteous angry voters. At some level, you’re discussing the massive failure of government at all levels. This could create a constitutional crisis. Perhaps the states will convene a constitutional convention, as described in Article V, and re-write the whole bloody thing. Perhaps the military will seize control and we’ll be ruled by a junta. Who knows?

3

Do you have any particular President in mind? :wink:

That’s a hell of a hypothetical.

We’d be on legal terra incognita, so what happens would be anyone’s guess. If the President had any self-respect or sense of shame at all, he’d resign at once, and so would the Vice President. If they didn’t, yes, I think impeachment would be the proper route.

Amendment XII provides that after the Electoral College ballots are opened before a joint session of Congress, “the person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed…” Congress, having acknowledged the Electoral College tally in (presumably) good faith, would have properly recognized who they believed to be the President- and Vice President-elect at the time. If it later came out that the vote was a fraud, and that Congress refused to take the necessary steps to rectify the situation, those members of Congress and senators would eventually have to face the voters at the expiration of their terms. Members of Congress and senators cannot be impeached or recalled, IIRC.

A bit of rough justice might be for the Vice President to resign first, the President to appoint as VP the person who had actually won the last election, and then resign after he or she was confirmed by Congress pursuant to Amendment XXV, Sec. 2, thereby letting that individual serve as President for the balance of the term. That person would then have a leg up in the next campaign when, presumably, the nation would - perhaps out of embarrassment and an eagerness to make amends - elect him or her to a full term.

I suspect the courts would stay out of all this if at all possible, considering most of it to present “political questions” best handled by the other branches.

4

Historically, people who fixed elections remained in office until either their term ended or they were impeached or arrested on other charges*. I doubt this would change – it’s opening an enormous can of worms.

Any actions performed by the official until he leaves office would be legal.

*Consider “Landslide Lyndon” Johnson, who probably fixed his first election to the Senate, after losing a few years before due to a fixed election. Or the history of Tammany Hall.

5

<not a mod>

Some people just can’t let things alone. “W” will be out of office in two years, but they still can’t get past the last two elections. If you’re that upset with the fact that a Republican has been in office for the last six years, volunteer at your local Democratic headquarters and try to change things within the system. Don’t make up hypotheticals that could never happen.

</not a mod>

<mod>

Thank you for keeping this civil. However, I think this could have some better answers and discussion in Great Debates.

Moved.

</mod>

6

Judging by the history of John Quincy Adams, Henry Clay, and the “Corrupt Bargain” of 1824, nothing at all would happen.

7

My post was not about Bush. I did not intend this to be anything more than a legal/constitutional question about a purely hypothetical situation. I don’t believe the situation has any basis in reality, and I didn’t imply that it did in my post.

You’re the one who brought up Bush here, not me. For the record, if I had been eligible to vote in the last election (I was 17 at the time), I would’ve voted for Bush.

And I don’t agree that this situation “could never happen”. It’s unlikely, but not implausible. As we move further and further down the path of badly-implemented, insecure electronic voting systems, it only gets more likely. It would take a lot of effort to engineer, but the payoff would be huge. I don’t think it’s that far-fetched to imagine a hostile foreign government attempting something like this in the next few decades.

8

But it could happen, Rico.

9

From what we’ve seen historically, once you’re officially in the office, the election certified, the EV’s cast, and sworn in, you’re the man. It doesn’t matter if you cheated or not. It’s sort of like an NFL game. If a ref cheats, makes an incredibly biased call, or if a player cheats and gets away with it, the game stands as decided on the field. Even if “in fairness” it should have gone the other way.

It really, sadly, has to be that way. Because the societal meltdown that would ensue if every law passed under a fraudulently elected Administration was instantly thrown out we’d see the greatest crisis in the history of this country aside from the Civil War. We’d have grave economic collapse as thousands of court cases, corporate regulations and etc were suddenly retroactively changed.

10

My guess, if it’s a Democrat he’d be impeached, his laws erased and appointments tossed out. If he’s a Republican, nothing.

11

Well, it would probably depend on who’s in charge of Congress. :slight_smile: But seriously, while the president might be impeached, there’s really no way the laws could be erased and appointments tossed out. That would cause total chaos, and if you think about it, you can probably see that.

12

The really amazing thing is…s/he really believes this. Even more amazing…s/he is not alone. The level of ignorance as to how our nation actually works BY OUR OWN CITIZENS is appalling sometimes.

Sometimes I think that tin foil will one day be standard issue…

-XT

13

That’s because we’ve had the last ten years of conservative skulldruggery to affirm that the American right will use every trick possible to get their way, laws be damned.

14

Skulldruggery? What does Bush’s past drug use history have to do with this??

15

What do you mean “if”?
(couldn’t resist)
What is the statute of limitation time for federal election fraud prosecutions.
His (or theoretical her) power as president begins at the swearing in ceremony. His actions while president would remain in place because voiding all of it would create more chaos than is necessary.
After being removed from office (impeachement would probably not be the right procedure as the crime was committed before taking office), there would probably be enough political backlash to change much of what was done soon after.

16

But the Constitution provides no other procedure.

17

Ooooh, or what if this president rigged the first election but did a bang up job and got voted in by a landslide for term #2? Like say 65/35. Maybe it would be in the best interest of the people to leave him or her at that point.

18

If it was proven that the president became president via a rigged election I do not think Congress would be able to get away with not impeaching him (even if the president was actually innocent of being a part of the rigging). That said I definitely agree if it was today (with Bush and our current Congress) nothing short of smoking gun proof would prompt Congress to impeach and they’d Texas-two-step around anything less than smoking gun proof.

I assume if the hypothetical is taken that the VP would have to be impeached along with the president (which I would assume would have to be an entirely separate proceeding). Not sure but just guessing.

19

As mentioned there really is no other procedure and of course Congress can impeach for any reason. There need not be a crime committed in office to impeach.

20

OK, you’re right. However, I think there would be Federal court proceedings possibly reaching SCOTUS first. Why? Inevitably underlings and other fall-guys would be prosecuted first, and this wouldn’t be by congress. Only after this would the fakey president be removed, and that would be by congress.