AHunter3-SHUT THE FUCK UP about psychiatry!

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Go You Big Red Fire Engine

Well, had you read the links I posted, you would know it's not just that (from the thread):

Well true, and to be fair, in the one you quoted her on, I initially called her on it. And yeah, I agree I think sometimes Siege tends to be a bit self-centered. I'm just saying I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing it out HERE, in THIS thread, that she tried to go it alone and failed.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted by Go You Big Red Fire Engine

Because she's a broken record with her "catatonia", it seems she manages to bring in how she was "close to catatonic" into mostly unrelated topics.

Maybe she brings it up too often, maybe she doesn't. I can't say I've particularly noticed, nor do I much care if she wants to mention it whenever the mood strikes her. However, it seems to me you people who have made it a hobby to jump on her shit about it are taking the phrase "almost catatonic" just a bit too literally. I read it as descriptive way to get across the idea that she was out of it to the point of being unable to move, care, feel or do anything. I don't think she means it as a literal claim that she was almost in an actual clinical catatonic state. Sheesh, haven't you people heard of metaphors? I've been known to say of someone I was very angry with that "I nearly strangled him!" If I'd told you that, would you think I meant that I literally wrestled him to the floor and began to squeeze the life out of him with my bare hands around his throat? I would hope not.

[jackelope]

I have only fleeting, superficial experience with depression. But I've read probably a couple thousand Pittings, and this one sucks.

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

But since we're talking about depression and mental illness, maybe, just MAYBE talking about one's experience with it is relevant?

Isn't that what AHunter3 was doing?

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by Go You Big Red Fire Engine

Because she's a broken record with her "catatonia", it seems she manages to bring in how she was "close to catatonic" into mostly unrelated topics. She got called on it in this thread and this thread, but she's back at it again.

So, if you introduce the same thing into this thread that was covered in that thread and that thread, are you a broken record?

Her experiences are relevant to this thread. Bitching that someone is bringing up a relevant experience is dumb. Bitching that they are bringing up an irrelevant experience would make sense, but that's not the issue here.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by jackelope

I have only fleeting, superficial experience with depression. But I've read probably a couple thousand Pittings, and this one sucks.
Isn't that what AHunter3 was doing?

No. He's taking his experience, assuming it's exactly the same, and stating basically that mental illness doesn't exist, and that people shouldn't seek therapy, because they'll just get screwed. Or people are saying, "Don't talk to a doctor-they'll put you on the EEEEVILLLL meds!"

I don't mind hearing about his experience. I DO mind the whole, "psychology/psychiatry is a crock and they're an evil conspiracy to lock us up and mental illness is just a trait of your personality."

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by jackelope

Isn't that what AHunter3 was doing?

That's a good point. He's obviously talking about his own experiences, though he does occasionally couch them in language that implies the same is or could be true of everyone.

But so do I. So do all Dopers, in one way or another.

Perhaps the best way is simply to say, "This is my experience. Take what you can use and disregard the rest." But it can be very difficult, at least for me, not to interject advice, even when it's not my place.

[Go You Big Red Fire Engine]

Originally Posted by Q.E.D.

However, it seems to me you people who have made it a hobby to jump on her shit about it are taking the phrase "almost catatonic" just a bit too literally.

Then why is it the only metaphor she uses? I believe that she believes she was actually catatonic, that's the way it comes across to me.

Guin, this thread was about AHunter3, and she mentions him in the first sentence, then it's all about HER. She says "I" 25 times, and AHunter3 once, which is strange since the thread is about AHunter3, not her.

And with that, I believe I've hijacked enough.

[AHunter3]

Originally Posted by Rubystreak

Originally Posted by AHunter3

Do they? I'm not being sarcastic here. How do they have any more power over you than any other health care professional? If you tell a doctor you are homicidal or suicidal or thinking seriously of harming someone or are a danger to yourself, he has to act on that, very possibly against your will. In what other circumstances can they throw your ass in a mental hospital?

"Can"? Any damn circumstances under which, for any conceivable reason, they wish to, as long as they have a colleague who will issue a concurring opinion. And in many venues that's pretty damn pro forma. As I recently posted in some other thread, the concurring shrink doesn't need to evaluate you in person. They don't have to give you any particular test or assessment. They can view you for 3 minutes through the plexiglass barrier, read the first shrink's notes, and cosign the commitment.

Does that mean the halls are teeming with shrinks who incarcerate people willy-nilly for nefarious reasons or for no reason at all? No. I would say that upwards of 20% of the people they have locked up involuntarily are not a serious & legitimate danger to themselves or other people, but it's not like they often tend to lock folks up for voting the wrong way, for belonging to a different religion or being of a different race, etc. (Not that that absolutely doesn't happen, mind you — it does — but it's rare). The most common abuse of authority is in the grey area where the shrink feels that you need psychiatric treatment and that, in the absence of it, you will make poorly considered choices and ruin your life, or will fail to make therapeutic progress. Believing you to need the treatment, and believing that your disagreement on that (or on the specifics of that) is due to your being too sick to understand what you need, many shrinks will stretch the definition of "danger to self" to include this making of decisions that the shrink thinks are inadvisable.

With rare exceptions, if you do not see a shrink, and don't do something that precipitates involuntary commitment on the basis of a single act considered crazy in and of itself (attempt suicide, go walking through subway tunnels, dive off an 80-story building with a parachute on your back, climb into the lion's cage to pet the lions in the zoo, etc), it's not likely that some psychiatrist is going to come along and have you, a total stranger, committed.

If, on the other hand, you get into an emotional state 5-6 times a year and when you do so you go to the nearest hospital emergency room and ask to see a mental health worker on an emergency basis because you need help Right Now, it's considerably more likely that on one such occasion the MH doctor will commit you even if you aren't dangerous.

If you have a regular psychiatrist and you have a good rapport, and your shrink has no problem with you deciding against recommended treatment, it's only likely to happen if the doctor sincerely misinterprets something you say or recount having done as an attempt to kill or maim yourself (or, far less often, someone else).

If, on the other hand, you're looking for that good-rapport psychiatrist, and to that end you are seeing one, and this doctor wants to put you on a regimen that you don't want to be on, well, that could be an unfortunate time to discover that this doctor that you're trying out does have a problem with you not taking advice, and it is in such a circumstance that many of us in the psych patients' rights movement got our first taste of involuntary psychiatry.

Another situation where it's more of a risk is if someone who knows you consulted the psychiatrist first, spoke to the psychiatrist about your problems as they perceived them, and then informed you that they had a doctor friend who would like to help you. Sometimes it is a family member (parent, spouse, child, etc), sometimes it is an employer or an administrator at a school that you attend, something like that. You go in and sometimes find that the psychiatrist is starting off from "This person is disruptive and upsetting to the people around them, I know because they spoke to me about it", and if the shrink is unable to get your cooperation in changing you to end your disruptiveness, your treatment could become less voluntary rather quickly. This is more common with psychiatrists working in private hospitals. State-run bins have their own problems, but netting people in this fashion is generally not one of them.

OK, I'm blathering on again and I feel the box under my feet.

[Q.E.D.]

[quote=Go You Big Red Fire Engine]Then why is it the only metaphor she uses?/QUOTE]
Why not? If, indeed, her point is as I read it, it's a good metaphor--if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I use the "I nearly strangled him/her" metaphor quite a lot, too, because it gets across the intensity of my anger with that person quite well. I've never actually tried to strangle anyone, however. Of course, I can't speak for her, but just based on the links you posted it doesn't parse as if she meant it literally.

YMMV.

[jackelope]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

No. He's taking his experience, assuming it's exactly the same, and stating basically that mental illness doesn't exist, and that people shouldn't seek therapy, because they'll just get screwed. Or people are saying, "Don't talk to a doctor-they'll put you on the EEEEVILLLL meds!"

I really just don't see what you're talking about:

Originally Posted by AHunter3

Keep your eyes open and do your research. Try things if you are so inclined, but keep your options open and be wary of attempts to take away from you the right to make the meaningful decisions. (Even people who have had good results from psych meds will generally say that you need to window-shop and find a therapist with whom you have a good affinity and who respects your opinion on your own situation etc)

Even the more strongly-worded sections still don't sound to me like the rantings you seem to be perceiving:

Originally Posted by AHunter3

Don't ever, even for a moment, kid yourself. You voluntarily play with psychiatry, you surrender a significant portion of your self-determination.

Which is completely true: One goes to a doctor (of any type) because one doesn't know how to fix one's problem oneself, so a trained professional is needed. The entire point of going to an expert is to get treatment that you can't do for yourself. In other words, the point is to put your well-being in someone else's hands and trust them to act knowledgeably and in your best interest. If there are widespread doubts about the effectiveness of certain treatments, or about the reliability of measures that are in place to protect vulnerable patients, then people should absolutely know that before they go to such professionals. It doesn't mean "Don't do it"; it means "arm yourself with as much information as possible before you do it."

Is this somehow NOT excellent advice?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Oy. I just remembered the two sessions I had with a pair of military psychiatrists who lived up to the old joke about military intelligence. Those guys must have gotten their diplomas out of a Cracker Jack box!

[Zoe]

Maybe a reasonable question to ask would be if there is anyone here who voluntarily sought help for depression and was involuntarily confined for depression. If so, was it for more than three days? Were you forced to take medications? Which ones? How long did you have to stay? Did you have to take the medications when you were released? Did this happen in the last twenty years?

Although AHunter3's idea of careful research and study of the options is a good idea, in reality it is often just not practical for the severely depressed. The first time that I was taken to the hospital for depression, I had withdrawn so far into myself that I had quit talking. I couldn't think past the end of my nose. Another time, I forgot what was going on in my life. Still another time, I didn't know that I was depressed; I just couldn't stop crying at a regular checkup.

Maybe the reason that some of us talk about ourselves so much in these threads is that we are drawing upon our own experiences. AHunter3 does that too, but he has never had depression. I know what it is like to have the wrong treatment and the wrong meds and I know what it is like to have a good shrink and the right meds. He's wrong to lump all of it in together.

AHunter3, I suppose that you might have someone acting out violently, but usually depressed people are more likely to withdraw rather than disrupt.

No one diagnosed Kytheria. We did what we're supposed to do right off the bat. We suggested that she see a professional. Some suggested that she watch her diet and get exercise and fresh air. They are right. That didn't need to be mentioned with each new post.

I do not understand the hostility toward people who ask for professional help. It is a glaring ignorance on the part of those who criticize and undermine.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Zoe

Maybe a reasonable question to ask would be if there is anyone here who voluntarily sought help for depression and was involuntarily confined for depression. If so, was it for more than three days? Were you forced to take medications? Which ones? How long did you have to stay? Did you have to take the medications when you were released? Did this happen in the last twenty years?

Although AHunter3's idea of careful research and study of the options is a good idea, in reality it is often just not practical for the severely depressed. The first time that I was taken to the hospital for depression, I had withdrawn so far into myself that I had quit talking. I couldn't think past the end of my nose. Another time, I forgot what was going on in my life. Still another time, I didn't know that I was depressed; I just couldn't stop crying at a regular checkup.

Maybe the reason that some of us talk about ourselves so much in these threads is that we are drawing upon our own experiences. AHunter3 does that too, but he has never had depression. I know what it is like to have the wrong treatment and the wrong meds and I know what it is like to have a good shrink and the right meds. He's wrong to lump all of it in together.

AHunter3, I suppose that you might have someone acting out violently, but usually depressed people are more likely to withdraw rather than disrupt.

No one diagnosed Kytheria. We did what we're supposed to do right off the bat. We suggested that she see a professional. Some suggested that she watch her diet and get exercise and fresh air. They are right. That didn't need to be mentioned with each new post.

I do not understand the hostility toward people who ask for professional help. It is a glaring ignorance on the part of those who criticize and undermine.

Actually yes, one of my best friends was put away for 22 days for "depression". The Psych ward made him "Hostile" instead. They tried to put him on meds against his will and if not for many friends visiting him a lot and asking to review his records and pushing that we were talking to a lawyer about the case, the 22 day evaluation may have turned into a transfer to a longer institution. The guy had some problems but nothing that these idiots were helping with. It was an Aunt who hadn’t seen him in 6 years that got him caught up in the clutches of the Psyches.
Today he is doing very well and somehow he accomplished all this without their stupid meds.
The hostility BTW is not against people asking for help, it is against people like you who push people toward Pysch too quickly and expound upon the wonders of drugs. But I guess you refused to read what everyone else on the other side of the issue have been saying.

Jim {now I have to calm down, I am sorry}

[AHunter3]

Maybe a reasonable question to ask would be if there is anyone here who voluntarily sought help for depression and was involuntarily confined for depression. If so, was it for more than three days? Were you forced to take medications? Which ones? How long did you have to stay? Did you have to take the medications when you were released? Did this happen in the last twenty years

I would very much like to see folks respond to this. Also, please add some info about whether the practitioner was private-practice or not, whether you had insurance coverage that would cover psych treatment at the time or not, and, if you know, whether the psychiatrist in question was affiliated with a hospital, and, if so, public or private.

Oh, and year would be highly useful, wouldn't it?

[Guinastasia]

What Exit, again, the problem I had was with some people saying, "Don't go to a doctor-they'll just overmedicate you and make it worse!" That's like telling someone who has a lump in her breast, "Do NOT go to the doctor! He'll immediately say you have cancer and give you a double masectomy!"


I don't think anyone was pushing Kythereia towards psychiatric meds or not. Most people were suggesting she ask her own physician for a referral or some advice.

That's all.

Worry about overzealous prescription happy doctors when and IF it happens. That was part of what I learned in therapy-if you start worrying "What if?" all the time, that only feeds into it. One step at a time.

[OtakuLoki]

I think year, and state, would be interesting to hear, too. Certainly the situation described in What Exit?'s post would have been illegal in NY in 1997 when I was inpatient.

My inpatient time was NY 1997, for about three weeks. (I don't have exact dates.) I'd been committed at my own request, with strong suggestions from family. I was admitted from the ER, and had private insurance that should have covered my inpatient stay. (Outpatient would have been different, but inpatient was supposed to be covered.) I was receptive to medication, so I don't know if I'd have been given drugs against my will. The only people I recall from my stay who were fighting medication were in the ward after being transferred from a local prison. Certainly the doctors I had were always willing to answer questions about new medications, and took all reports about side-effects very seriously, no matter how silly they might have sounded to the patient.

An aside: Lute Skywatcher, one of my major regrets about my military service is that I didn't take my ship's doctor up on his offer to get me psychiatric treatment while I was in. I have no idea how the psychaitrists would have been - but I did trust my ship's doctor.

[OtakuLoki]

I think year, and state, would be interesting to hear, too. Certainly the situation described in What Exit?'s post would have been illegal in NY in 1997 when I was inpatient.

My inpatient time was NY 1997, for about three weeks. (I don't have exact dates.) I'd been committed at my own request, with strong suggestions from family. I was admitted from the ER, and had private insurance that should have covered my inpatient stay. (Outpatient would have been different, but inpatient was supposed to be covered.) I was receptive to medication, so I don't know if I'd have been given drugs against my will. The only people I recall from my stay who were fighting medication were in the ward after being transferred from a local prison. Certainly the doctors I had were always willing to answer questions about new medications, and took all reports about side-effects very seriously, no matter how silly they might have sounded to the patient.

An aside: Lute Skywatcher, one of my major regrets about my military service is that I didn't take my ship's doctor up on his offer to get me psychiatric treatment while I was in. I have no idea how the psychaitrists would have been - but I did trust my ship's doctor.

[AHunter3]

Certainly the situation described in What Exit?'s post would have been illegal in NY in 1997 when I was inpatient.

Really?

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

I think year, and state, would be interesting to hear, too. Certainly the situation described in What Exit?'s post would have been illegal in NY in 1997 when I was inpatient.
...snip...

My friend was caught up in 2002 just after his Grandmother died who he had taken care of for 20+ years. He was in a bad funk, but putting him away on his Aunt's word and the fact he was belligerent to the Social Worker that visited him was total Crap. It happen in NJ BTW.
Why would it have been illegal?
We didn't really talk to a lawyer, we just made noises that we were to try and get him out. They were seriously talking about transferring to a county center for an indefinite period. Did we really have recourse?

Jim

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

What Exit, again, the problem I had was with some people saying, "Don't go to a doctor-they'll just overmedicate you and make it worse!" That's like telling someone who has a lump in her breast, "Do NOT go to the doctor! He'll immediately say you have cancer and give you a double masectomy!"


I don't think anyone was pushing Kythereia towards psychiatric meds or not. Most people were suggesting she ask her own physician for a referral or some advice.

That's all.

Worry about overzealous prescription happy doctors when and IF it happens. That was part of what I learned in therapy-if you start worrying "What if?" all the time, that only feeds into it. One step at a time.

Guin, I understand, I thought we were resolved and then Zoe started posting her crap above. It actually pissed me off, because I don't think she read most of the thread and kind of took us all back to the beginning again.
I really do think meds have their use and place but I also think to many doctors in the HMO world prescribe drugs too easily. For me it was with Kidney Stones. The not good Doctor I hooked up with via the ER was going to put me on pills I would be taking for the rest of my life. I was only 25. I did not accept such a diagnosis on one man's word and went to an expert that my Sister the RN recommended. Sure enough, he recommended diet, avoiding dehydration and drinking lots of water. So if a confused person goes to a Doctor and they are an overworked pill of the month club Doctor I do think more harm than good could be accomplished.

I guess the biggest point that we are all working towards in this thread is if pills are prescribed, get a second opinion. Pills can really mess you up or really help you.

Jim {damn, I think I borrowed that soapbox, sorry}

[Garfield226]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

What Exit, again, the problem I had was with some people saying, "Don't go to a doctor-they'll just overmedicate you and make it worse!" That's like telling someone who has a lump in her breast, "Do NOT go to the doctor! He'll immediately say you have cancer and give you a double masectomy!"


I don't think anyone was pushing Kythereia towards psychiatric meds or not. Most people were suggesting she ask her own physician for a referral or some advice.

That's all.

Let's take a look at the thread, shall we?

Nine posts (more than half) before AHunter3's mentioned drugs in a non-negative context (obviously, not all of these were "pushing Kythereia towards psychiatric meds"). AHunter3's initial post included this disclaimer before anything else about medications:

Some people do benefit from psychiatric antidepressant meds. Some people do not.

and this advice at the end:

Keep your eyes open and do your research. Try things if you are so inclined, but keep your options open and be wary of attempts to take away from you the right to make the meaningful decisions. (Even people who have had good results from psych meds will generally say that you need to window-shop and find a therapist with whom you have a good affinity and who respects your opinion on your own situation etc)

In short, quite a few posts mentioned drugs straight away, with at least one or two glossing over the other treatments available (in my opinion, of course). Also, AHunter3's initial post said nothing anywhere near "Don't go to a doctor. . .they'll just make it worse!" I think the extremes of the viewpoints presented in that thread are nowhere near the way you rephrased them here, and I fear your personal feelings about this issue are coloring your perceptions so much as to make them imperceptible to many of the rest of us. Just trying to help you see what I'm seeing, make of it what you will.

[Rubystreak]

Originally Posted by AHunter3

They can view you for 3 minutes through the plexiglass barrier, read the first shrink's notes, and cosign the commitment.

Again, not being sarcastic, but unless one is on the wrong side of the plexiglass, is one at risk of being involuntarily committed when is not a danger to self or others? What kind of thing would get a not dangerous person in a situation like this? An acquaintance of mine was committed a couple of times when he was deeply into a schizophrenic episode, and he was definitely guilty of self-neglect and complete disorientation, so I could understand why he was hospitalized and think it was the right thing to do. He, of course, strenuously disagrees.

There was a situation in my life where I considered voluntary commitment. My psychologist gently talked me out of it. I have insurance, so it wasn't that. I have never had a psychiatrist suggest anything of the kind. Maybe that's why I have trouble with the very hostile attitude sometimes displayed towards the mental health industry. Maybe I've just been lucky, I don't know. My doctor changed a diagnosis for me that was made by a different psychologist that I was thought was totally wrong and could have led to trouble for me in the future. I feel lucky to have him, but maybe he's not the norm.

The most common abuse of authority is in the grey area where the shrink feels that you need psychiatric treatment and that, in the absence of it, you will make poorly considered choices and ruin your life, or will fail to make therapeutic progress.

How poorly considered a choice would one have to be seen to be making in order to warrant involuntary commitment? Again, this could just be my experience, but the only people I know who were involuntarily committed were a danger to at least themselves, though massive and egregious self-neglect if not actual suicidal intent.

If, on the other hand, you get into an emotional state 5-6 times a year and when you do so you go to the nearest hospital emergency room and ask to see a mental health worker on an emergency basis because you need help Right Now, it's considerably more likely that on one such occasion the MH doctor will commit you even if you aren't dangerous.

What kind of help can one expect to get for a situation like that at the ER that would not involve some time in the hospital and/or drugs? I mean, if you're so bad off you go to the hospital, shouldn't you expect to maybe be admitted or given medicine when you go? This is true for other illnesses and injuries for which one goes to the ER, why not psychological/emotional ones?

If you have a regular psychiatrist and you have a good rapport, and your shrink has no problem with you deciding against recommended treatment, it's only likely to happen if the doctor sincerely misinterprets something you say or recount having done as an attempt to kill or maim yourself (or, far less often, someone else).

This is basically what I figured.

If, on the other hand, you're looking for that good-rapport psychiatrist, and to that end you are seeing one, and this doctor wants to put you on a regimen that you don't want to be on, well, that could be an unfortunate time to discover that this doctor that you're trying out does have a problem with you not taking advice, and it is in such a circumstance that many of us in the psych patients' rights movement got our first taste of involuntary psychiatry.

Could this really happen if you were a functional but quite depressed person? Could you give me an example of someone who was not remotely dangerous/harmful to himself but was bad enough for a shrink to involuntarily commit you?

Another situation where it's more of a risk is if someone who knows you consulted the psychiatrist first, spoke to the psychiatrist about your problems as they perceived them, and then informed you that they had a doctor friend who would like to help you.

This sounds really creepy to me, pimping someone out to a doctor like this. What behavior would provoke this kind of thing?

Thanks for discussing this issue and explaining it to me, AHunter3. Most of the people who are virulently anti-psychiatry aren't nearly as articulate as you are and I can never quite see it their way. I am interested in seeing and understanding your POV

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

An aside: Lute Skywatcher, one of my major regrets about my military service is that I didn't take my ship's doctor up on his offer to get me psychiatric treatment while I was in. I have no idea how the psychaitrists would have been - but I did trust my ship's doctor.

An example of the idiots I had to deal with: I was about 15 pounds over the Navy's ideal weight. The drawing they asked me to do was of a normal-sized person, which they deduced to mean that there was a thin guy in me wanting to get out! Uh, you sure that I didn't draw a fat person because I don't fucking know how?! What would you have said if I had drawn a stick figure?

[furt]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

I'm sick and tired of you horning in on threads about mental illness where people are seeking support ...

Personally, I'm just sick of the threads about mental illness where people are seeking support.

If people put their personal lives on a billboard, you can't act surprised when someone draws a moustache on the picture.

[AHunter3]

Replying to Rubystreak's questions:

unless one is on the wrong side of the plexiglass, is one at risk of being involuntarily committed when is not a danger to self or others?

Yes, sometimes. Paul Henri Thomas, whose story is available in the link above (linked to the reply "Really?" in response to OtakuLoki's comment), was not dangerous. You could argue that he was kind of nutty, but that's about it. Not only was he involuntarily committed, he was involuntarily electroshocked over and over.

What kind of thing would get a not dangerous person in a situation like this?

I went into some of that. I'm not sure what kind of details or elaborations you want here. Would you like some anecdotes? A 70-some-odd year old widow, inheritor of the fortunes of an industrial equipment manufacturer that wasn't Delta, who liked to drink but wasn't a self-destructive alcoholic, wasn't suicidal, and certainly wasn't violent, was incarcerated by a doctor to whom her nephew and nephew's wife spoke extensively before they talked her into seeing him. A friend of mine in the movement was referred for an evaluation by her school, she argued with the psychiatrist who didn't like the plain dress and no makeup and no shaved armpits, and he had her detained and it took her 5 months to get out. A grad student at NYU who was doing a public interview of random passersby on campus regarding unionizing grad students was locked up for 5 days at NYU Medical Center. Lots of my better, more spectacular stories are old enough that some folks would say "Yeah, but things have changed" (although I don't think that's entirely true), but I could solicit for newer accounts if you'd like.

An acquaintance of mine was committed a couple of times when he was deeply into a schizophrenic episode, and he was definitely guilty of self-neglect and complete disorientation, so I could understand why he was hospitalized and think it was the right thing to do. He, of course, strenuously disagrees.

Was he genuinely dangerous? Was he at genuine risk of perishing, or just weird as batshit and disturbing to people and you figured if you extrapolated his behavior forward several years he'd end up in a bad situation?

There was a situation in my life where I considered voluntary commitment. My psychologist gently talked me out of it. I have insurance, so it wasn't that.

You're more at risk when you do have insurance. No insurance means it isn't lucrative for them to lock you up. (This is especially true of private bins, which depend much more on insurance as a revenue stream. State bins can be underfunded snakepits with sadistic personnel and random acts of cruelty and coercion as the organizing principle, but they only involuntarily incarcerate crazyfolk brought in by the police or who have upset lots of folks in a public setting. In fact, if you're poor and decompensating and want in and the only thing available to you is a state-run facility, you may have trouble getting admitted as an inpatient.)

How poorly considered a choice would one have to be seen to be making in order to warrant involuntary commitment?

Your doctor wants you to take Depakote; you tried Depakote a couple years ago and didn't like the way it made you feel; you want to stay on Paxil, but the doctor thinks your current med is not doing the job and wants you on Depakote. You say flat-out that you aren't going to take it. Doctor writes down: "treatment resistant; pt exhibits anosognosia regarding need for recommented txmt". Tells you one more time why you should take Depakote, you say no, doc says "Would you mind waiting here, I have some samples of Paxil I can give you for free if that's what you want to be on". You wait, it seems to be taking rather long, and then Doctor enters with two ambulance folks and a stretcher and says an evaluation period is necessary in light of his concerns, and he will meet you up there once they've got you settled in. (Hi, Grace!)

OR

You lose your job. You are depressed, it has proven intractable and won't lift. Doctor nags you to submit your resume to 7 companies per week. One day you come in and say you have taken an unrelated, lower-paying job and also that you're going to give up your apartment and move in with a shared-house situation with some other mental patients you met at the day center. Doctor says you are giving up, you say you need to have some kind of job to have something to do, Doctor doesn't like you living with other mental patients, you like the people. Four days later your doc, who is tangentially affiliated with the day center, asks you into a back room with two other staff members. They don't let you leave until ambulance pulls up.

In both cases, these were egotistical arrogant assholes who had a reputation for heavy-handedness. (Frighteningly enough, one of them really likes the electroshock machine). Problem is, how would you know you had that kind of doctor until you had gotten to know your doctor?

What kind of help can one expect to get for a situation like that at the ER that would not involve some time in the hospital and/or drugs? I mean, if you're so bad off you go to the hospital, shouldn't you expect to maybe be admitted or given medicine when you go? This is true for other illnesses and injuries for which one goes to the ER, why not psychological/emotional ones?

They might be expecting a new pill but not expecting to be detained. Or they might not be thinking in "pill" terms at all but instead want to be made popular, outgoing, courageous; or they want their inhibitions and hangups to be erases so they can enjoy life instead of being haunted by old imperatives. (And think, for some reason, that psychiatrists do these things, as if they were personal growth gurus). In our culture, "I've had it with my life as it is, I'm going to shut down everything and change it now", which is in many ways a courageous coming-out burst of honest self-appraisal, is peculiarly associated with "I need to be fixed, I'm ready, let's get this over with, I wanna see the Doctor". I bet some of the doctors on the board can testify to this!

Could this really happen if you were a functional but quite depressed person?

Afraid so.

Could you give me an example of someone who was not remotely dangerous/harmful to himself but was bad enough for a shrink to involuntarily commit you?

See above.

This sounds really creepy to me, pimping someone out to a doctor like this. What behavior would provoke this kind of thing?

That's how it happened to me. Our dormitory had an RA who was quite concerned about me, and then I freaked out the person running the Rape Crisis Center on our campus. Both of them forwarded material to the mental health department of the university medical center, and then the RA pressured me to "go talk to the psychiatrist just to make sure nothing's wrong". I figured it would get them off my back. Technically, I was a voluntary patient, because I signed a "consent to be treated by the doctor". I thought it was just a meaningless paperwork thingie, and it certainly made no mention of not being allowed to leave. Psychiatrists talk, right? They're head doctors! So even though I'm just meeting with him to dispell notions that I'm nutso, I have to consent to be "treated", right? Wrong. Committed. Well, then, I change my mind. Oh no, now that you're in you can't leave until the doctor says so. Of course, that was a couple decades ago, but it still happens. And parents worried about their kids will speak with a shrink and then tell the kid that there's a doctor who they want them to meet.

Thanks for discussing this issue and explaining it to me, AHunter3. Most of the people who are virulently anti-psychiatry aren't nearly as articulate as you are and I can never quite see it their way. I am interested in seeing and understanding your POV

Hope you found this useful

[Green Bean]

Count me as another who generally disagrees with AHunter3's extremely negative view of psychiatry, but values his input. Hell, I like psychiatry. It makes my brain work right. But he sure does have a good point about the involuntary treatment thing. Here's my own anecdote. (I've told it before here on the boards, but it's certainly relevant.)

I have clinical depression. This one night, I realized I was having a major depressive episode. The next morning, I went to see my shrink. As we talked about what I was feeling, I mentioned that the night before, I had a feeling like "stop the world--I wanna get off." She immediately assumed that I was suicidal, and insisted that I go to the mental hospital. I tried to explain that I wasn't suicidal, and have never been suicidal. I was just really stressed out and unhappy and I wanted to run off to Tahiti or something. But, no. She decided I was suicidal, and that was that.

Fortunately my husband was with me, and got me out of it by promising that he would take leave from work and keep me on "suicide watch" 24 hours a day. He usually would feel bad about lying, but the whole thing was so ridiculous that he would have said anything to get us out of there.

Of course, my trust in my shrink was completely broken, and so I found myself shrinkless right at a time when I really needed care. I was a mess. So my husband and I talked it over for a couple of days, and decided that some inpatient care might be a good solution.

So off we went to the mental hospital. We went through the intake interview...and they wouldn't accept me! They basically said, "you don't need to be here. You're not the slightest bit suicidal." Well, duh.

So we went back home. I found a new shrink, and we all lived happily ever after.

[Kythereia]

OP of the other thread chiming in.

[QUOTE-Guinastasia]As for the online survey, that's for Kythereia to decide. Maybe she is having a bad time and decided not to go into details. Maybe it was just some bullshit survey. The point is, if she THINKS she may be suffering from depression, what the fuck is so gung-ho about asking one's doctor, "Gee, I've been feeling such and such, what does this mean?"[/quote]

I really don't want to go into details--for everyone's sanity as well as mine, I think--but it wasn't meant to be a survey. It was meant as a "guys, I'm in a bad spot right now, any advice / tips / thoughts?" (I still really appreciate everyone's help. Thanks, you guys.)

I'm keeping everyone's advice in mind--AHunter3's along with the rest. All I've got is a appointment to make a referral to a psychologist (I think), and so far that's that.

[Alan Smithee]

I agree with those who say that what Guinastasia says AHunter3 says and what he actually says bear no discernible resemblance to one another.

Where, Guin, has AH3 said that people should not go see doctors or that psychiatrists or medicines are "EEEVILLL"? Where has he said people should "just get over it"? He hasn't.

On the contrary, in every thread I've seen him post in, he's been incredibly scrupulous about NOT saying or implying those things even while pointing out very important facts that tend to get glossed over: that psychiatric medicine does not work for everybody, that there are undisputed (but often unacknowledged) severe limitations to what psychiatric medicine knows, and that there are very serious (if very rare) risks involved in pursuing treatment.

I also want to echo what some others have said: AHunter3, I greatly appreciate your contributions to the SDMB.

I was diagnosed with depression when I was five years old. Since then, my diagnoses have included major depression, dysthymia, major depression comorbid with dysthymia, bipolar disorder (type II), borderline personality disorder, and generalized anxiety disorder comorbid with BPD and/or major depression. I haven't seen any medical basis for the variety of diagnoses, just that I happen to have changed practitioners, and that whatever treatment I received before wasn't successful, so maybe renaming it will help (even if the new treatment is the same as the old treatment).

I've been on a variety of antidepressants and other psychoactive medications, none of which has resulted in long-term relief, and the short-term success of which has been questionable (due to placebo effect, the cyclic nature of the symptoms, etc.) I've been happiest and least depressed at times when I was on no medication whatsoever, including a period of about three years when I believed I was completely asymptomatic and thought I was "cured". The causative nature of this correlation is completely indeterminate, however. I have recently (with the consent of my medical practitioners) stopped taking medication, and I think I've improved overall following a minor downswing.

If my symptoms worsen severely, and my medical practitioners convince me that a new medical treatment may prove more successful than previous medications, I will hardly hesitate to try it. I also continue to undergo talk therapy, and I have a therapist (a PhD candidate in Psychology) I am very pleased with. In short, I'm not at all opposed to psychiatric/psychological treatment.

Nevertheless, I am severely aware of the limitations of the mental health field, both in diagnosis and treatment. They are serious and need to be recognized.

AHunter3, throughout much of my experience, I have found your posts about the limitations of psychiatric medicine empowering and insightful. It helps to know that I'm not alone in my frustrations and that my evaluations of the mental health field are not crazy (even if I am!) You have given me language and a conceptual framework for thinking about these things I may not have otherwise had.

You've also given me some degree of inspiration in informing that even without successful treatment, it is possible to live a...well, if not a normal life, a life nonetheless.

Finally, you've given me a lot to think about. My experiences have been different than yours. I've never been involuntarily treated or incarcerated--on the contrary, I had to threaten to hang myself from the hospital light fixtures once, because my insurance wouldn't pay and the hospital wouldn't admit me unless I was a clear and immediate danger to myself (or others). I've also worked for a homeless shelter where we struggled to get treatment for those who (in our opinion) needed it, but didn't want it. Seeing things from the other perspective, through your eyes, has been challenging and rewarding.

We've had lots of posters here with valuable and unique perspectives who were unable (in their own minds at least) to be heard above the masses of opposing voices, and who flamed out in frustration. I'm glad (and impressed) that you've remained so calm, reasoned, and articulate. Please don't stop posting however many times you're flamed.

[Siege]

OK, I'll give myself one reply to this thread before I go on to more pleasant things. I nearly didn't reply for fear of being jumped on and I have posted less since my behaviour was pointed out, but I thought it was relevant.

When I say I was "nearly catatonic", it's because I don't know the correct term for the state I was in and I'm going for as meaningful a definition as I could get. I was capable of doing some things voluntarily. I didn't soil myself, so I assume I went to the bathroom voluntarily. I signed my own name to the committment papers, so technically I signed them voluntarily. However, for about 48 hours or so in 1992, I did not move unless told to or attempting suicide; I didn't speak unless spoken to, and, if I did, it was barely a whisper. My fiance gave me a shower because I appeared incapable of washing myself. I was madly in love and in lust with him, but I didn't respond to him in any way. I gather it was like washing a manniguin in some ways. That same fiance said later he saw no soul or spark of life in my eyes. I remember very little of that time except pain and fear. I was convinced I was dead and I just wanted my body to stop functioning. I don't say I was completely catatonic in the sense society uses the word because I signed my committment papers at the hospital. I think, even my worst detractors would agree I was in a very bad way, though.

If anyone has a better term for the state I was in, preferably one or two words, I'd be delighted to read it. For now, I'm working with the best I've got.

One reason I talk so damn much about depression is because, regardless of what anyone chooses to think, I really do want to help other people who have it. On the other hand, Kytheria, one reason I didn't post in your thread in MPSIMS is because I've been told I've been bringing it up too much.

I've watched my words and my posting habits since the incident Guinastasia mentioned, and I now post less and am more conscious of what I post. I stand by my post in this thread because I believe it was relevant. I've written what I've written in an effort to help people because I'm that sort of altruistic fool. I admit I've fallen into my own cliches and I've told the same story over-and-over again at times and I apologize to those I've offended. Perhaps I should stop trying and let someone else take over.

CJ

[betenoir]

Is there a word for talking to yourself?

(Obviously i need it for my next solo conversation....I'm very harsh on my poor use of vocabulary)

While I'm here...is they're really much of a corralarion between talking to yourself and insanity or....well, being a bit off?

Obviously if you think someone is talking back, or if you can't stop in situations that are inappropriate. Or if you talk to yourself more than other people. That's kind of a problem.

But sometimes I talk to my self, when I'm by myself, because sometimes you have to hear your thoughts to see if they really make sense....so am I a bit off? Or a total nutter?

Anyway though my real question reamins is there a word for this?

[betenoir]

Originally Posted by betenoir

Is there a word for talking to yourself?

(Obviously i need it for my next solo conversation....I'm very harsh on my poor use of vocabulary)

While I'm here...is they're really much of a corralarion between talking to yourself and insanity or....well, being a bit off?

Obviously if you think someone is talking back, or if you can't stop in situations that are inappropriate. Or if you talk to yourself more than other people. That's kind of a problem.

But sometimes I talk to my self, when I'm by myself, because sometimes you have to hear your thoughts to see if they really make sense....so am I a bit off? Or a total nutter?

Anyway though my real question reamins is there a word for this?

Arrrrggghhhh...

This was meant to be a new thread. In GQ. Sorry. Could someone move it? Thanks.

[AHunter3]

Originally Posted by betenoir

Is there a word for talking to yourself?

(Obviously i need it for my next solo conversation....I'm very harsh on my poor use of vocabulary)

While I'm here...is they're really much of a corralarion between talking to yourself and insanity or....well, being a bit off?

Obviously if you think someone is talking back, or if you can't stop in situations that are inappropriate. Or if you talk to yourself more than other people. That's kind of a problem.

But sometimes I talk to my self, when I'm by myself, because sometimes you have to hear your thoughts to see if they really make sense....so am I a bit off? Or a total nutter?

Anyway though my real question reamins is there a word for this?

Ever since the introduction to the world of the cell phone, no one notices it any more. If they don't see you holding one, they assume you've got earbuds on.

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

An aside: Lute Skywatcher, one of my major regrets about my military service is that I didn't take my ship's doctor up on his offer to get me psychiatric treatment while I was in. I have no idea how the psychaitrists would have been - but I did trust my ship's doctor.

My experience with military and VA psychiatrists was iffy. The Navy shrink I saw was more interested in talking at me and making notes than he was in talking to me and listening to what I had to say. IOW, he was more concerned about my fitness for duty than he was in getting me any kind of real help. The other Navy shrink I saw was OK; he admitted me to a day-hospital program where I played BS games all day and drank at night, then shipped me back to the States where I got to deal with the aforementioned bozo.

The VA shrinks, IM(limited)E, are used to dealing with patients who have been traumatized in some way. So if you don't have PTSD, there's not much they can do for you.

Robin

[furt]

Originally Posted by Siege

OK, I'll give myself one reply to this thread before I go on to more pleasant things. I nearly didn't reply for fear of being jumped on and I have posted less since my behaviour was pointed out, but I thought it was relevant.

When I say I was "nearly catatonic", it's because I don't know the correct term for the state I was in and I'm going for as meaningful a definition as I could get. I was capable of doing some things voluntarily. I didn't soil myself, so I assume I went to the bathroom voluntarily. I signed my own name to the committment papers, so technically I signed them voluntarily. However, for about 48 hours or so in 1992, I did not move unless told to or attempting suicide; I didn't speak unless spoken to, and, if I did, it was barely a whisper. My fiance gave me a shower because I appeared incapable of washing myself. I was madly in love and in lust with him, but I didn't respond to him in any way. I gather it was like washing a manniguin in some ways. That same fiance said later he saw no soul or spark of life in my eyes. I remember very little of that time except pain and fear. I was convinced I was dead and I just wanted my body to stop functioning. I don't say I was completely catatonic in the sense society uses the word because I signed my committment papers at the hospital. I think, even my worst detractors would agree I was in a very bad way, though.

If anyone has a better term for the state I was in, preferably one or two words, I'd be delighted to read it. For now, I'm working with the best I've got.

One reason I talk so damn much about depression is because, regardless of what anyone chooses to think, I really do want to help other people who have it. On the other hand, Kytheria, one reason I didn't post in your thread in MPSIMS is because I've been told I've been bringing it up too much.

I've watched my words and my posting habits since the incident Guinastasia mentioned, and I now post less and am more conscious of what I post. I stand by my post in this thread because I believe it was relevant. I've written what I've written in an effort to help people because I'm that sort of altruistic fool.

Oh, get off the cross. People were not complaining because you posted too much in general. The problem is that nearly everything you had to say was not really about depression, but about you and your depression. Believe it or not, there are ways to address the issue -- any issue -- that do not start with "this one time, at depression camp, I ..."

I admit I've fallen into my own cliches and I've told the same story over-and-over again at times and I apologize to those I've offended. Perhaps I should stop trying and let someone else take over.

Bullshit. If you really thought this, you wouldn't have posted. Instead you're making like one of those people who say "I'm never speaking to you again" and then proceed argue with you for an hour. Actually, come to think of it, its far more akin to a four-year-old who is told that the picture might be prettier if he didn't keep using just the one crayon and instead tried some other colors, and whose response is to throw it across the room, make a face and say "I'll never draw another picture again."

If you can honestly read that post of yours and not see that passive aggression, as well as the epic amounts of self-involvement that cause it, well... I'd suggest getting professional help, but that hasn't seemed to work. Score another one for Ahunter3, I suppose.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by furt

If you can honestly read that post of yours and not see that passive aggression, as well as the epic amounts of self-involvement that cause it, well... I'd suggest getting professional help, but that hasn't seemed to work. Score another one for Ahunter3, I suppose.

Her contributions to this thread are so much more valuable than yours that it's not even funny. You have already bitched about people talking about their depression. Why in holy fuck do you read the threads?

Jesus, some of you people are stupider than a pig wallow.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Siege

I've watched my words and my posting habits since the incident Guinastasia mentioned, and I now post less and am more conscious of what I post.

As a guy who has called you out in the past, you should know that it wasn't because of hijacking. It's because you're amazingly narcissistic. This post, which I've altered in the quote below, is just chock full of references to yourself. While there's nothing wrong with sharing personal anecdotes, you are in desperate need of a new writing style. A simple copy & paste to Word with a search & replace yielded an amazing "me, myself & I" ratio of 71 instances in 453 words. That means you specifically refer to yourself once every 6.4 words!

OK, _'ll give _ one reply to this thread before _ go on to more pleasant things. _ nearly didn't reply for fear of being jumped on and _ have posted less since _ behaviour was pointed out, but _ thought it was relevant.

When _ say _ was "nearly catatonic", it's because _ don't know the correct term for the state _ was in and _'m going for as meaningful a definition as _ could get. _ was capable of doing some things voluntarily. _ didn't soil _, so _ assume _ went to the bathroom voluntarily. _ signed _ own name to the committment papers, so technically _ signed them voluntarily. However, for about 48 hours or so in 1992, _ did not move unless told to or attempting suicide; _ didn't speak unless spoken to, and, if _ did, it was barely a whisper. _ fiance gave _ a shower because _ appeared incapable of washing _. _ was madly in love and in lust with him, but _ didn't respond to him in any way. _ gather it was like washing a manniguin in some ways. That same fiance said later he saw no soul or spark of life in _ eyes. _ remember very little of that time except pain and fear. _ was convinced _ was dead and _ just wanted _ body to stop functioning. _ don't say _ was completely catatonic in the sense society uses the word because _ signed _ committment papers at the hospital. _ think, even _ worst detractors would agree _ was in a very bad way, though.

If anyone has a better term for the state _ was in, preferably one or two words, _'d be delighted to read it. For now, _'m working with the best _'ve got.

One reason _ talk so damn much about depression is because, regardless of what anyone chooses to think, _ really do want to help other people who have it. On the other hand, Kytheria, one reason _ didn't post in your thread in MPSIMS is because _'ve been told _'ve been bringing it up too much.

_'ve watched _ words and _ posting habits since the incident Guinastasia mentioned, and _ now post less and am more conscious of what _ post. _ stand by _ post in this thread because _ believe it was relevant. _'ve written what _'ve written in an effort to help people because _'m that sort of altruistic fool. _ admit _'ve fallen into _ own cliches and _'ve told the same story over-and-over again at times and _ apologize to those _'ve offended. Perhaps _ should stop trying and let someone else take over.

It's hard to address the content when the style is so painfully annoying. Granted, this post was in direct response to people goofing on you, so it's no big surprise that your "me-ness" was on overdrive, but it wasn't far removed from your norm. Let's look at how your first post in this thread rates:

_ agree with Zoe. Much as _ respect AHunter3, which is quite a lot, _ was raised to have contempt for the psychiatric profession and consider them charlatans. _ tried to cope with severe clinical depression on _ own. It landed _ flat on _ back in a mental hospital and close to catatonic. _ got treatment for the depression just as _ would for diabetes or heart disease.

Like anything else, psychiatry can be abused. _'ve met a few couselors who _ felt were clueless; _'ve also been treated by a couple of dead good ones. When _ was attending a weekly group therapy session, _ met people who'd been in group therapy for years and would continue to do so, in _ non-medical opinion, because they were waiting for someone to come along and hand them the answers. _ may have wanted that, but _ didn't expect that and _ didn't want to spend _ life the way _ was. It's been three years now since _'ve seen a therapist. _ won't tempt fate and say "_'m cured" but _ will say it's been some time since _ last had a nasty depressive episode (2 years, nearly, as a guess?) and _'ve weathered a few storms which would have triggered one in between. _ couldn't have done that without what _ learned from two good therapists..

The "me, myself & I" ratio here was a not as shocking but still notably annoying once every 8.1 words. One sign of hope is that unlike the much longer post above, this one actually contains one whole sentence without a single reference to yourself. Kudos.

[askeptic]

You better watch out Ellis, jsgoddes is gonna go all ballistic on your ass....


not a single reference to me....well except that one, but other than that, none.

[AHunter3]

Incidentally, I am quite touched by the number of people (including those who disagree with me about psychiatry) who came into the thread & expressed appreciation for my posting about psychiatry.

[Rubystreak]

Originally Posted by AHunter3

I went into some of that. I'm not sure what kind of details or elaborations you want here. Would you like some anecdotes?

Your anecdotes were suitably horrifying, but aren't they the exception rather than the rule?

Was he genuinely dangerous? Was he at genuine risk of perishing, or just weird as batshit and disturbing to people and you figured if you extrapolated his behavior forward several years he'd end up in a bad situation?

He was wondering around the Commons almost naked and pooping on people's lawns. When you tried to speak to him, he could not respond with anything resembling an answer. I think he needed to be in the hospital. While not homicidal or suicidal, he was manifestly not able to care for himself at all.

You're more at risk when you do have insurance. No insurance means it isn't lucrative for them to lock you up.

Right. I have insurance but they still didn't want to lock me up. I was talked out of it, and obviously not because I couldn't pay. They didn't think I needed to be hospitalized. This just goes to the point that not all mental health professionals are eager to commit people, even people who might be open to the idea of being committed.

Problem is, how would you know you had that kind of doctor until you had gotten to know your doctor?

I guess I've been lucky wrt shrinks, then.

They might be expecting a new pill but not expecting to be detained. Or they might not be thinking in "pill" terms at all but instead want to be made popular, outgoing, courageous;

People go to the ER hoping to be made popular, outgoing, and courageous? Talk about decompensated.

Our dormitory had an RA who was quite concerned about me, and then I freaked out the person running the Rape Crisis Center on our campus.

Why? Did they have reason to worry? I understand if you don't want to go into it. I guess I'm wondering how much of a problem involuntary commitment really is. It doesn't seem like it happens all that often.

[even sven]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

Any overuse of these drugs is still, in my opinion, less of a problem in society than defining depression as"...feeling crappy about the rough spots in life, and medicating so you don't feel them". No on who has ever suffered from moderate to major depression (or tried to help someone in that circumstance) would ever make such a statement.

I will!

When I was in my last years of college, I suddenly found myself without purpose. I've always been an overachiever- but I was suddenly left with nothing to achieve except a few extra tips for doing a good job at my hostess job at Denny's. Growing up I always wanted great things, but after 17 years of schooling I found myself no closer to making something of myself than when I cheerfully pronounced I wanted to be an astronaut in first grade. The weight of all the sheer work I'd have to do to make my dreams come true felt like a million pounds. Living is, after all, a tremendous responsibility. Each day felt like years, and I kept counting my regrets (why didn't I major in something else? Why didn't I look for a job during school?) And so I gave up. I gave in. I decided I was no longer up with the challenge of living. I decided to become despair.

And it was some dark times. I spent two years in deep mourning for my own life.

I tried medication at one point, but it didn't work. I didn't want to get better, I wanted to get worse. I tried because the ghost of the overachiever in me didn't want me to fail my classes- and I was at the point that I was leaving early every day because I was making a scene crying in my chair while trying to write notes about Russian Cinema. But the side-effects were too much for me to be able to concentrate anyway and I couldn't afford those side effects on finals week, so I grit my teeth and made it through. I graduated (weighing 90lbs, sores on my cheeks from sleeping on tear-soaked pillows, and drinking tumblers of vodka far too often) with honors.

Drugs couldn't have saved me. I have the will of steel.

Then one day about two years ago, I woke up and felt okay. It was a different okay than the semi-manic euphoria I was used to, or the false hope I'd occasionally try to conjure up just to make my failures seem more romantic. It was the feeling of a a sunny day after a rainstorm. I walked to work, put in my day, came home, cooked dinner, and went to sleep. And I kept doing that. Every day. It wasn't easy. I felt like I was reborn- like I'd had all my bones broken and they'd been put back together. Not quite as strong, and a little unsteady, but workable. Soon I was doing positive things again- moving to a better town, finding a better job, writing applications, traveling....and I haven't looked back. I know I can't say this for sure, but I can say as sure as I can that I will never go there again. I have conquered that demon.

I can't say for sure what changed. But I think the the biggest part was me starting to re-invest in living. To take on the challenge. To look the next 80 years straight in the eye and say "I will live those". And to finally let go of all the depressive thoughts that had become my world. It was an act of bravery to give up my entire philosophy of life. A leap of faith. The world of being 'okay' had become an unknown, and I had to invest in it without even a hit of reservation to get better. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, and I had to go through every bit of that agony to figure out that nothing less than wholesale living was going to work. Ultimately it came down to trust. Trusting myself. Trusting the world. Putting myself out there where things could hurt me again, and trusting I could make it through.

And no drugs could have done that work for me. A good councilor might have been able to help me recognize my false starts, crutches and excuses. Love certainly helped me feel not as alone. But the most drugs could have done was delay that final battle.

[monstro]

I wish people would lay off Siege.

[kimera]

Count me in as another former mental patient who was hurt by doctors. I come from a family with a strong history of mental illness. My maternal Grandmother died in a mental hospital (my mother is convinced the treatments made her worse), my mother takes a variety of medications, my younger brother Mark was treated for ADD and major depression the same as I. I first went to a shrink in grade school. The third one we tried was very helpful. She put me on Ritalin and my grades soared. When I was in high school I was hit by a major bout of depression and was hospitalized at one point. There were a variety of doctors that came to see me and a lot of them didn’t know what the hell they were doing. One of them became convinced that I had Multiple Personality Disorder and since I believed authorities back then, I became convinced I had it too. If I hadn’t insisted on my long-term doc being in charge of me for other reasons, I could’ve been treated for a bunch of conditions I didn’t have.

I am my happiest and healthiest now that I am no longer seeing any shrinks or taking any drugs. I found that I was relying on the drugs and docs to make me happier rather than making positive changes in my own life. When the random bouts of depression strike me, I no longer run for pills or docs but sit and think about it logically until it goes away. A few weeks ago I learned that when a depressive disorder strikes, the right hemisphere of the brain is far more active with alpha waves than the left hemisphere. There has been some evidence (although no controlled studies) that individuals with depression can cure their illness by consciously increasing the alpha activity in their left hemisphere. (cites: 1 2 3) I think this is what I managed to figure out on my own. I was discussing this with a friend two nights ago and he said that he found meditation helped him far more than any medicines did.

Furthermore, one of the scientists who is working in this field also found that hormonal changes in women during their menstral cycle can change the pattern of these waves. This would explain why women tend to be more prone to depression than men.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by even sven

I will!

How is your experience "...feeling crappy about the rough spots in life, and medicating so you don't feel them"?

You specifically say that medication didn't work for you, so how can you use your experience as an example of "medicating so you don't feel them"?

You got better without help. That's great. I experienced something similar a couple of years ago, though without even a rough spot for excuse. Neither of us is an example of medicating so we don't feel the rough spots, you because the meds didn't work and me because I didn't take any.

[AHunter3]

Originally Posted by Rubystreak

Your anecdotes were suitably horrifying, but aren't they the exception rather than the rule?

Yes. Most shrinks aren't going to incarcerate anyone for some cavalier reason. Most heroin dealers aren't going to shoot uninvolved bystanders, either, but it happens often enough to generate concern.

They didn't think I needed to be hospitalized. This just goes to the point that not all mental health professionals are eager to commit people, even people who might be open to the idea of being committed.

Why? Did they have reason to worry? I understand if you don't want to go into it. I guess I'm wondering how much of a problem involuntary commitment really is. It doesn't seem like it happens all that often.

My story, including upsetting the woman heading up the Rape Crisis Center.



It happens often enough that when we have regional meetings, large conference rooms are filled with people who define themselves as "psychiatric ex-inmates", "survivors of the psychiatric system", "mental patients liberation front", etc., and aobut 70% of us have experienced involuntary psychiatric treatment. It happens often enough, in other words, for there to be a movement of people pissed off because it was done to them. Often enough to fill conference rooms despite the absence of the ones who aren't together enough to attend conferences, don't have the resources to get to them, don't know of the movement or its conferences to begin with, or are too "in the closet" about having ever been a psychiatric inpatient to even consider appearing at such an event.

Too often, in other words.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by monstro

I wish people would lay off Siege.

Me too. The things that raise hostility in people here never ceases to confound me. I just don't get it.

I skip over posts I don't like. Unless something is directed at me personally, I see no reason whatsoever to let it bother me emotionally. Pitting someone because of their posting style strikes me as about as petty as pitting someone because of how they dress--it just isn't something that affects me.

I'm not talking about trolls, or people who consistantly and successfully hijack and derail conversations, or people who make insulting or offensive statements. Pit them all you want. But pitting someone because, basically, you don't like their personality?

Even in real life, where I don't have the luxury of skimming over people's words, I don't do that. If I don't like someone, I either avoid them or tollerate them. I would never dream of insulting someone just because they have different interests than I do, or come across as self-interested, or even obnoxious. Unless someone is personally insulting to me, cruel, or malicious, I just ignore them.

Why the rules should be any different on-line, I just don't understand.

The fact that all this hostility is directed at Seige, who, AFAIR, has never been rude or insulting to anyone on the boards (and please, if you do recall a moment of rudeness on her part, don't be so petty as to bring it up just to correct me) just baffles me completely.

[jlzania]

I'm with Alan Smithee and monstro.
I find is really baffling that Ellis Dee would struggle so hard to come up with something to beat B] Siege [/b] about.
He can't accuse her of being a jerk or rude so he flays her for using "I" too much.
Oh please.
Although it's trite and overused, this really does call for the phrase, 'Get a life, Ellis Dee "

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by jlzania

I'm with Alan Smithee and monstro.
I find is really baffling that Ellis Dee would struggle so hard to come up with something to beat B] Siege [/b] about.
He can't accuse her of being a jerk or rude so he flays her for using "I" too much.
Oh please.
Although it's trite and overused, this really does call for the phrase, 'Get a life, Ellis Dee "

It's not the first time I've noticed. Kinda stuck with me, somebody so amazingly self-involved that her reaction to the disaster in New Orleans was that she wished she didn't have to see it on her local news. This was, of course, just after the clusterfuck of a thread wherein we learn that she was "harmed" by somebody taking a photo of her at a convention.

I admit that those two threads were my introduction to Siege, never having come across any posts of hers that stood out before. That certainly colored my impression of her negatively. Since then I've only seen her rarely, almost always in the pit, and it's always with the "me me me" posts. If I had called her out every time, the recommendation to get a life would be more reasonable than trite. But twice a year? She's plenty capable of handling herself. It's not like she's a stranger to the pit.

Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

I skip over posts I don't like. Unless something is directed at me personally, I see no reason whatsoever to let it bother me emotionally.

I call bullshit. You didn't skip over my post, which wasn't directed at you personally. So why did you let it bother you?

Unlike Siege, you are a stranger to the Pit, which you avoid with 97% of your posts. (That's an actual stat; not hyperbole.) You clearly find all pittings to be petty. Since you don't like the meanies over here, maybe you'd feel better back in GQ. Be sure to stop by MPSIMS on the way to load up on enough {{huggles}} to make you feel all better.

I'd just assume let this hijack die. I'm not really motivated to pit Siege proper, but if you guys really want to get into it, I suppose I could. Just don't whine that I struggled mightily to find some obscure thing to attack her with; this isn't from out of left field.

[Guinastasia]

Uh, there's this little invention called the "Ignore List". I suggest you use it if it gets your blood pressure so out of wack.

Look, for those that were able to sort things out with out "running to the doctor for a new pill", good for you. Must you look down on those who found that medication works for them? Do you honestly think I LIKE taking meds everyday? In my case, I have OCD, and behavior modification techniques combined with meds is what worked. If you have a problem with that, that's just too goddamned bad. It ain't your life, it ain't your body, so you do not have a say.

As for reacting to negative situations, I wasn't in one. I had just graduated high school and started college. And I actually liked school, but I was miserable. I think it was the change in my life that triggered things, but I wasn't in a period where one would expect me to be upset. Depression will often strike when NOTHING is apparently wrong. And again, in my situation, it wasn't depression itself, but depression was a symptom of anxiety, and unreasonable, irrational fears. And knowing they're unreasonable and irrational doesn't make them go away. In fact, trying to reason with yourself as to WHY they're unreasonable only makes it worse. That's where the obsession comes in-trying to analyze to death what's going on and you end up obsessing even more.

I am NOT saying everyone needs to take meds. Not at all. I am saying, whatever works FOR YOU, but do not look down on those who decided that meds worked for them. Why does that bother you so much? Maybe, just MAYBE they tried things YOUR way, and it didn't fucking work. So fuck off.

There's no one perfect method for anyone. Everyone is different. Don't knock someone for having a different experience than your's. And don't assume that I just pop a pill and everything is hunky-dory. There's a lot more to it than just that, but I'll be damned if I'm going to further elaborate. You seem to assume that I just down some drugs and that's all I do. It's not-but I'll be goddamned if I'm going to tell anyone HERE anything else.

AHunter3, quite honestly, some of what you wrote in your anecdotes does sound pretty off to me. BUT, as long as you weren't a danger to yourself or others, there was no reason to lock you up. On the other hand, if you were running around throwing your feces at people and screaming incoherantly, then we'd have to talk.

[Metacom]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Uh, there's this little invention called the "Ignore List". I suggest you use it if it gets your blood pressure so out of wack.

She says in the thread she started called "AHunter3-SHUT THE FUCK UP about psychiatry!".

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Metacom

She says in the thread she started called "AHunter3-SHUT THE FUCK UP about psychiatry!".

Touche.