AHunter3-SHUT THE FUCK UP about psychiatry!

[Excalibre]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

It's not the first time I've noticed.

It's convenient to have the friendly folks at the Sooper-Sekrit-Place-That-Must-Not-Be-Named to help you notice things. Can't we leave the Siege-bashing where it started - off-board?

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Excalibre

It's convenient to have the friendly folks at the Sooper-Sekrit-Place-That-Must-Not-Be-Named to help you notice things. Can't we leave the Siege-bashing where it started - off-board?

WTF? I need help noticing my own post?

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

...snip...
Look, for those that were able to sort things out with out "running to the doctor for a new pill", good for you. Must you look down on those who found that medication works for them? Do you honestly think I LIKE taking meds everyday? In my case, I have OCD, and behavior modification techniques combined with meds is what worked. If you have a problem with that, that's just too goddamned bad. It ain't your life, it ain't your body, so you do not have a say.
...snip...

For what it is worth & I am only one of the posters. I don't look down on people who have had success with Meds and therapy, I only object to people pushing it as a quick choice. IMO pills get handed out like candy. A lot do good and a lot don't and a few screw people up worse. You started this thread and apparently not too many people agreed with your reason so you have to put up with some negativity.

Jim

[Green Bean]

Originally Posted by Rubystreak

It doesn't seem like it happens all that often.

Well, "not that often" is too often--especially if you're one of the unlucky ones. While random people aren't getting thrown in loony bins willy nilly or anything like that, it does, as AHunter3 said, "happen often enough to generate concern."

I never would have thought that it would (almost) happen to me. I'm not a raving lunatic or anything. And I'm genuinely not suicidal. So why would I think that my shrink would suddenly try to have me committed?

I'd like to think that if I did go directly to the mental hospital like my shrink wanted me to, they wouldn't have accepted me, just like they didn't accept me 3 days later. But maybe they looked at me differently because I walked in there on my own rather than being brought in by a shrink claiming an emergency need for a suicide watch.

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by Excalibre

It's convenient to have the friendly folks at the Sooper-Sekrit-Place-That-Must-Not-Be-Named to help you notice things. Can't we leave the Siege-bashing where it started - off-board?

Way to go you junior mod wannabe you.

[Rubystreak]

Originally Posted by Green Bean

Well, "not that often" is too often--especially if you're one of the unlucky ones. While random people aren't getting thrown in loony bins willy nilly or anything like that, it does, as AHunter3 said, "happen often enough to generate concern."

I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but... cite? How often does this really happen? Fight my ignorance.

I never would have thought that it would (almost) happen to me. I'm not a raving lunatic or anything. And I'm genuinely not suicidal. So why would I think that my shrink would suddenly try to have me committed?

I don't know, why would he? It just doesn't make sense to me that there was absolutely no reason for a doctor to try to stick a person in a mental hospital who didn't need to be there. I'm not doubting there are doctors on power trips who make bad decisions. It happens in areas other than psychiatry. It's just that, in my experience (and this is only my experience), doctors have not been so gung-ho about drugs, hospitalization, any of it. FTR, I have had several doctors and therapists, ranging from awesome to horrendous, but still, never felt coerced by any of them into treatment I didn't want.

I have zero doubt that being involuntarily hospitalized sucks enormously, which is exactly the reason my psychologist gave for talking me out of it. She said it was a last resort.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Since we're giving anecdotal information now, I've told two seperate psychiatrists that I was suicidal (at different points in my life) and neither even prescribed me medication, much less committed me.

[RyJae]

Originally Posted by Rubystreak

I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but... cite? How often does this really happen? Fight my ignorance.



I don't know, why would he? It just doesn't make sense to me that there was absolutely no reason for a doctor to try to stick a person in a mental hospital who didn't need to be there. I'm not doubting there are doctors on power trips who make bad decisions. It happens in areas other than psychiatry. It's just that, in my experience (and this is only my experience), doctors have not been so gung-ho about drugs, hospitalization, any of it. FTR, I have had several doctors and therapists, ranging from awesome to horrendous, but still, never felt coerced by any of them into treatment I didn't want.

I have zero doubt that being involuntarily hospitalized sucks enormously, which is exactly the reason my psychologist gave for talking me out of it. She said it was a last resort.

My aunt, swears there is water running under her house, going to suck her and her grandchildren under. She swears, people are watching and know about the water and is willing to do anything to protect herself and her grandchildren.
My mother and other aunt as well as my aunts husband tried to get her to therapy, she refused. Because my cousins knew she was obviously in need of help, and wouldn't get any refused to allow her anywhere near there kids.
Many, vague threats of self harm, and harming "the watchers" later, the family decided to try to commit her, basically tricking her to go.
Didn't work, she wouldn't sign the paperwork. The only therapist they where able to get her to go see, told my uncle flat out, unless he could prove she was a danger he couldn't commit her.
Needless to say, I still have a, well aunt that is quite a different aunt than she was just 4 years ago.
So unless something is very different elsewhere, I would assume it's harder to get committed than some may believe.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted by Excalibre

It's convenient to have the friendly folks at the Sooper-Sekrit-Place-That-Must-Not-Be-Named to help you notice things. Can't we leave the Siege-bashing where it started - off-board?

The only people bringing up offboard crap is you, idiot. Jesus Christ on a cracker, you sure love to bring up that place anytime you get a bug up your ass about something.

[Alan Smithee]

I call bullshit. You didn't skip over my post, which wasn't directed at you personally. So why did you let it bother you?

Sorry, you're right. I should have made it clear that those who piss on people who don't deserve it are also fair game, even if they don't direct their insults and bulling at me personally. But the fact is that I did like reading your post. Maybe it's the mood I was in. I don't like the sentiments it expressed, and I don't find it to have expressed them terribly artfully, but I do find I have a perverse fascination with how little it take some people to get their dander up here. It makes me wonder if I'm missing something--and based on Excalibre's post it would seem that I am.

But the fact is, I have a short attention span, and I'm barely inclined to follow all the silly infighting that goes on on this board without following to to other boards. I'm not Siege's personal defender, and if I see you throwing shit in her direction again, I may very well skim over it. As you point out, it's not like she can't hold her own, and I (sometimes) have better things to do than play kindergarten cop.

Unlike Siege, you are a stranger to the Pit, which you avoid with 97% of your posts. (That's an actual stat; not hyperbole.)

You know, maybe you do need to get a life!

You clearly find all pittings to be petty.

Most of them. Many are funny, and a few address genuine problems on the boards. I do lurk there sometimes, even if I rarely have anything to add. But yeah, it's not usually Pulitzer material there.

[Since you don't like the meanies over here, maybe you'd feel better back in GQ. Be sure to stop by MPSIMS on the way to load up on enough {{huggles}} to make you feel all better.

You seem to be suggesting that if I find pointless bickering, juvenile whining, and petty bullying (not to mention righteously indignant chastisements, blisteringly hilarious and obscene rants, and silly snarkfests, all of which I enjoy on occasion) not to my general liking, that I must be weak, immature, or otherwise unable to deal with harsher realities and worthy of contempt. If this is, in fact, what you mean to imply, I think it may say quite a bit about your own worldview and personality. "Petty" wouldn't begin to describe it. Or maybe you're just an ignorant chauvinist, who thinks that anyone who doesn't enjoy Nascar and boxing isn't a "real" man.

In any event, I'm forced to concede that you may have a point. This has been rather fun, even if I don't feel like I've accomplished anything worthwhile. Maybe next time, I'll try a more challenging target.

[askeptic]

Wow Alan you think quite a bit of yourself don't you. That was the smarmiest, snidest, most pathetic post I have seen in quite a long time.

[Alan Smithee]

Hey, I'm just trying to fit in here!

[Alan Smithee]

For the record, of course I was being smarmy and self-righteous. That was rather the point, wasn't it? I was being attacked for keeping out of the pit and above the fray. For once, I thought that the appropriate response was to eschew the high road and give into the temptation to be as whiney and arrogant as my attacker. If I overshot the mark, or if I failed to convey the irony--Eh, well...I'm not perfect.















Just better than the rest of you.

[AHunter3]

Green Bean:

I'd like to think that if I did go directly to the mental hospital like my shrink wanted me to, they wouldn't have accepted me, just like they didn't accept me 3 days later. But maybe they looked at me differently because I walked in there on my own rather than being brought in by a shrink claiming an emergency need for a suicide watch.

Check. In most states, the involuntary commitment takes the form of a "2-PC", or "two psychiatrists in accord to commit". If your own shrink thinks you need to be committed, that's one down, one to go. You are escorted involuntarily to a facility and the shrink on the floor sees you as you are brought in, in whatever emotional and cognitive state you are in when you are being brought to a psychiatric facility against your will. (Everyone who thinks they'd be unfazed, unfrazzled, not angry, not scared, and clearheaded under those circumstances, please raise your hands). Different hospitals and different localities handle things differently — you may be immediately seen by a psychiatrist who asks you things like who the President of the United States is (if you've ever seen Miracle on 34th Street, you've seen a decently accurate portrayal of a mental-status eval). Or you may be put on a locked ward until such time as the psychiatrist has an opportunity to see you, and while you wait you can make the acquaintance of the nurses, orderlies, and other mental patients, including of course the other emergency arrivals.

Where you generally aren't going to be is out in the same waiting area you'd be in if you'd walked in on your own. Usually, that waiting area is a place people can walk back out of. The people who are out there — which would include you if you come in of your own accord — do not have one shrink's opinion that they should be held as an inpatient, or at least not the opinion that they should be held as an involuntary inpatient. What they do have, most likely, since they are there and haven't left despite being able to walk out of there, is the belief that they need psychiatric help, or might need psychiatric help.

Now, think about this for a moment from the perspective of a psychiatrist. Why do you need to be on a locked ward if you already understand you need psychiatric help and are wiling to accept it? Outpatient therapy will do, won't it?

Oh, but you say you're suicidal! You say you think you need to be locked up!

Play along with me, thinking like a psychiatrist —who are you going to be more concerned about, a patient who brings themself to the hospital and says "help me, I think I'm gonna kill myself", or a patient whose private psychiatrist had them escorted here involuntarily because of a professional opinion, as the patient's regular treating pyschiatrist, that you're likely to try to kill yourself? So, OK, maybe the patient in the first example really is suicidal. As the doctor, you ask the patient questions: Patient, are you actually planning it, or do you just feel like you would if you could not get help? If I send you home with instructions to come into the outpatient clinic tomorrow at 9:30, can you tell me that you'll refrain from taking your life until then? I see which meds you are on, have you been taking them? You haven't run out or anything? MM-kay, look, you'll feel better once your regular doc gets your meds right, or I'll start working with you in the morning and we'll get your meds right, and in the mean time as long as you aren't determined to do yourself in, you're better off at home. Locked wards are gloomy and unpleasant. Etc. If you were really bent on your own destruction, you would not be here, you would be somewhere else making yourself dead. You just want to issue an ultimatum, "I am not going to continue to feel this awful, so fix me or I'm doing Final Exit". So we're gonna fix you. Go home and get some rest.

[SNARKY]: I will also add that for many psychiatrists I've encountered, the fact that you think you might need to be locked up means you don't, just as if you didn't think you need to be locked up that would mean you probably do. [/SNARKY] But as you can perhaps see, there are some legitimate reasons for thinking that way, as snarky as it sounds when you put it like that.



Rubystreak:

cite? How often does this really happen? Fight my ignorance...

I don't know, why would he? It just doesn't make sense to me that there was absolutely no reason for a doctor to try to stick a person in a mental hospital who didn't need to be there

You keep asking for cites w/regards to "how often, isn't this rare?", and we keep giving you anecdotes, sorry!

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A22221ACC

http://www.antipsychiatry.org/unjustif.htm

(The latter source — being on a domain "antipsychiatry.org" that's run by one of us schizzy-libbers — is one you might consider superficially impeachable & far from unbiased, but it names names, and articles, and so on, which you can follow through on)

I'll dig you out some more / better figures if you want.

Meanwhile re: her particular close-call event —Green Bean told you the reason: her shrink probably sincerely, if quite erroneously, thought that she was suicidal from a comment she had made. My colleague Grace's shrink had a reason, too — I don't know for sure what it was and I doubt it was even remotely within the purview intended by involuntary-psychiatry statutes, because Grace wasn't dangerous or even particularly nutty, but it wasn't for no reason. (Her shrink found her refusal to acknowledge his expertise to be so illogical as to constitute a symptom of her "disease"; and he found her stubborn insubordination towards him to be a psychotic rejection of social structure so severe that, well hell, if she was going to backtalk her psychiatrist, she would probably disobey the police, too. Loose cannon. Is never going to get her life fixed until this willful "acting-out" rebelliousness is conquered. And that, in turn, is not going to happen until we get her on the right meds. And some non-nonsense institutional structure would do her a world of good. Etc. These aren't reasons I find at all defensible, mind you, but they are reasons, nonetheless.

[OtakuLoki]

Sorry, I've missed some of the commentary here in this thread, esp in response to my last post.

First, What Exit? and AHunter3, the reason why I'd said that Jim's anecdote didn't sound right to me was that for an involuntary inpatient stay, in NY, it takes an actual court order to hold a person beyond 72 hours after they've made the request to be released. (96 hours if that happens on a weekend.) I'm assuming, since Jim didn't mention it, that his friend's case was never put before a judge. This is still something that can be abused by the system, no question. First off - the request has to go up the chain, and when one is inpatient it's damned easy to keep someone away from other people. When I was inpatient the hospital made a point of giving me an introduction to the social worker who'd handle that if I felt it was necessary, and I never saw anything to indicate that the nursing staff would interfere with anyone's attempt to get that message out.

That doesn't mean, AHunter3, that I disbelieve your account, nor the history of that person you linked me to. What's legal is alas, not always what happens.

To Lute Skywatcher, and MsRobyn, I don't doubt that there are yahoos in the military's psych services. And many of them will be on the same "keep people in" rather than "treat them" mentality that is common in other military fields such as recruiting and training. The reasons I feel differently is, when I told my ship's doctor that I sometimes felt that the chain of command was out to make blue shirts hang for anything that goes wrong, he told me that it wasn't a sign of unreasonable paranoia on my part, but a reasonable conclusion from events aboard ship. Oddly enough I trust him, still. And, well, given his relationship with the then CNO*, I don't think his opinion would be swept under a rug. So, I don't think I'd have been pigeonholed as someone looking for an "I love me" shirt. And, given how my mental illness has gotten worse since I got out, there would be a good deal of benefit to me if I'd had that on my service medical record.

*They were related. I can't say how close, but the CNO did make one "unofficial" visit to the command to see him.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

Sorry, I've missed some of the commentary here in this thread, esp in response to my last post.

First, What Exit? and AHunter3, the reason why I'd said that Jim's anecdote didn't sound right to me was that for an involuntary inpatient stay, in NY, it takes an actual court order to hold a person beyond 72 hours after they've made the request to be released. (96 hours if that happens on a weekend.) I'm assuming, since Jim didn't mention it, that his friend's case was never put before a judge. This is still something that can be abused by the system, no question. ...snip...

Well as I said, different state and it did happen only a few years back and the wonderful free Psych people went from a diagnosis of suicidal to extremely hostile and didn't see what assholes they were. I had to keep reminding myself to hold my anger from fear they would try to lock me up. Really shitty what happened to my friend and it did him no good and actually set him back in job hunting quite a bit.
I guess what pisses me off the most is how easily they got him in for observation and then decided he had a big problem because he was angry they wouldn't let him out. If I ever found myself in for observation and not allowed out, I know I would be extremely hostile.

Jim

[OtakuLoki]

That's why I'd asked about when and where it happened. I'm glad I didn't seek help in NJ, when I thought about it.

[devilsknew]

I think Guinistasia's ranting is just the polar opposite of AH3's view. It's similarly jaded and worse than Hunter's in arrogance.

It is the arrogance of human certainty. It is an argument backing an Institution that has a God-Complex and worse yet, a financial interest.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

That's why I'd asked about when and where it happened. I'm glad I didn't seek help in NJ, when I thought about it.

Yep, NJ, I kind of love it but it has more than its fair share of problems. In NYC children were being left with blatantly abusive parents in the 80’s and in NJ kids would be taken into protective custody due to anonymous complaints. Our level of political corruption seems abnormally high also.

Jim

[Zoe]

What Exit: The hostility BTW is not against people asking for help, it is against people like you who push people toward Pysch too quickly and expound upon the wonders of drugs. But I guess you refused to read what everyone else on the other side of the issue have been saying.

What Exit: I thought we were resolved and then Zoe started posting her crap above.

Would you have the courtesy please to post exactly what I said either in this thread or the other that "pushed" people too quickly toward "Pysch" (sic) and expounds upond the wonders of drugs? What is it that I said that you consider "crap"?

The only references that I've found to medication were regarding prozac in which I cautioned that it is not a "happy pill," but went on to say that

The medication allows some people who take it to feel normal again.

And I had this to say about my own experience:

I know what it is like to have the wrong treatment and the wrong meds and I know what it is like to have a good shrink and the right meds. He's wrong to lump all of it in together.

Here's a summary of my "pushing":

No one diagnosed Kytheria. We did what we're supposed to do right off the bat. We suggested that she see a professional. Some suggested that she watch her diet and get exercise and fresh air. They are right.

You might want to reexamine the question that I asked:

Maybe a reasonable question to ask would be if there is anyone here who voluntarily sought help for depression and was involuntarily confined for depression.(underlining added for emphasis)

Your friend is not a participant here and apparently it was his aunt who sought help from a social worker. What I was asking for was personal experiences from people who understand clinical depression from the inside.

And as I said at the beginning of this thread and as AHunter3 knows from many previous discussions, I am in his corner on involuntary committment issues.

Siege, mental illnes is personal! Good for you!

[AHunter3]

OtakuLoki —

If you do not sign a consent form (commit yourself), they've got 72 hours to file to hold you on an involuntary basis. You're entitled to a hearing before a judge if they do in fact file to hold you. In most venues they don't have to actually get you up in front of the judge before the 72 hours runs out, they just have to file the notice of intent to seek an involuntary order on you within that time. And if they can get you to sign a consent form (which they won't necessarily explain the implications of, as I recounted in my own tale), the 72 hour clock stops, and then you have to formally sign a 72-hour-notice of intent to leave in order to start it again (with a fresh 72 hours marked on it). Also, in most venues, they can hold you for just short of 72 hours, transfer you to another facility, and then that facility starts a 72 hour countdown. (I don't know how legal that really is, I just know they do that).

They use pushy sales techniques and overt threats to get you to sign, or to refrain from issuing a 72-hour notice, or to rescind one once you've done so: "Oh, come on and sign, you have all kinds of privileges as a voluntary patient but we have to keep you locked in here with no shoelaces and no belt if you don't sign". "Well, I'm sorry but you need to be in treatment, and while I can't keep you from insisting on wasting the time of my good buddy Judge Howard, it's not going to do you any good, he's never refused a request for an involuntary hold order when I've requested it." "The way you said 'no' so forcefully and practically flung that pen down, I think maybe you're having a crisis, hey Marie do you think he's maybe having a bit of a crisis, do we need to call for an emergency depo of Prolixin? I know you won't like being strapped down and injected, but we have to protect our patients and staff from dangerous residents who are losing control. You know, most people just go ahead and sign."

But yeah, they can't just lock you in with no due procedure.

I'll describe what the court hearings can be like if anyone's interested (it ain't pretty)

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Zoe

...snip...Here's a summary of my "pushing":

No one diagnosed Kytheria. We did what we're supposed to do right off the bat. We suggested that she see a professional. Some suggested that she watch her diet and get exercise and fresh air. They are right.
...snip...!

You know Zoe the first 4 replies in Ky’s thread said see a doctor.
Why is that the correct response? She posted a few sentences and people where sending her to the doctor.
I feel like I been over this too many times in this thread.
People jumped on the go see a doctor a little too quickly in my opinion and then Guin got bent out of shape by AHunter3 reasonable post.
You still insist that “We did what we're supposed to do right off the bat. We suggested that she see a professional.”
Why is that what we’re suppose to do?

Jim {I've got Deja Vu all over again maybe I should see a doctor?}

[Guinastasia]

FWIW, you'll get no argument from that involuntary commitments can often be unnecessary and that hospitals can be brutal. The only person I know of though who was committed was there because he threatened his parents with a knife.

What Exit, what is so inappropriate about saying, "Well, we don't know if you're really suffering from depression-so ask a doctor who can diagnose it properly?" What is wrong with seeing a doctor? I don't get it. Not a psychiatrist, simply a physician.

[Rubystreak]

Originally Posted by devilsknew

I think Guinistasia's ranting is just the polar opposite of AH3's view. It's similarly jaded and worse than Hunter's in arrogance.

It is the arrogance of human certainty. It is an argument backing an Institution that has a God-Complex and worse yet, a financial interest.

Where did Guinastasia posit anything as a certainty?

I am not treated by "an Institution that has a God-Complex" that just wants my money. I am treated by a doctor who is a human being, and who has helped me. To say he helped save my life is not an overstatement. Are you going to tell me I'm just jaded or worse yet, delusional, because my POV is in direct contradition with yours?

devilsknew, I am more than willing to accept that there are other views on the mental health field than mine, but your post is just flat-out intolerant and condescending. You're entitled to your opinion, but that does not invalidate mine, Guin's, or anyone else's who has benefitted from psychiatry. It's ironic as fuck that you're calling out arrogance when you've dismissed Guin's and others' experiences in three sentences. Pot, meet kettle.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

FWIW, you'll get no argument from that involuntary commitments can often be unnecessary and that hospitals can be brutal. The only person I know of though who was committed was there because he threatened his parents with a knife.

What Exit, what is so inappropriate about saying, "Well, we don't know if you're really suffering from depression-so ask a doctor who can diagnose it properly?" What is wrong with seeing a doctor? I don't get it. Not a psychiatrist, simply a physician.

It gets you on the treadmill. You see a doctor, they are not a very good Doctor and he prescribes the Pills that the Drug companies are pushing that month. This now throws you even further out of whack as he prescribed a drug for depression when you were really just in a long funk as Kalhoun so well put it.
Now the drugs really throw you off and you end up on others drugs and seeing a mental health specialist and the treadmill is moving quicker.

Will this happen to everyone, no of course not. Will it happen to 1 out of 10 people, I don't know but I think that is a reasonable estimate, it might be higher.
There are steps you should take before the Doctor if you are not suicidal or otherwise a danger to oneself. This is where the Exercise, diet change, Happy Projects, Treating yourself is worth a try first.

Do you come out of it okay or do you get to experience the Joys of an Institution like Ahunter3 described?

I hope I finally manage to make myself clear, I know I am not a very writer.

Jim

[xbuckeye]

The most important thing to always remember about AHunter3's experience is that he did commit himself. He admits he signed a consent without reading/understanding it. What I want to know (and has been asked before) is the percentage of psych inpatients who were involuntarily committed with the additional question of were they really involuntarily committed or did they sign themselves in and not realize it, or did a parent or guardian sign them in, did they sign themselves in and not remember it, were they tricked into signing themselves in? I admit that there is no way to compile this data without access to hospital admission records. While I have never felt like launching a pitting, I find AHunter3's habit of seeking out all mental health threads and crapping all over the entire profession due to a bad personal experience and some other people's mostly outdated anecdotes extremely annoying. There's a pretty good chance that Kytheria may go talk to a doctor or a counselor or a psychiatrist/psycologist who says there is nothing really wrong with her and she is worrying herself unnecessarily. Or she gets the help that she needs, whether that be medical intervention, counseling, or a get over it speech that prevents her from getting worse. If she really has a problem, ignoring it won't make it go away. And I guess that is my biggest problem, AHunter3, you are more than happy to tell people what not to do...when do you ever help them out with what you think they should do? How does your post in the original thread help someone make a very difficult decision when they need to do something and you tell them whatever you do don't do anything that will get you imprisioned and electroshocked.

[OtakuLoki]

Originally Posted by AHunter3

<snip>

But yeah, they can't just lock you in with no due procedure.

I'll describe what the court hearings can be like if anyone's interested (it ain't pretty)

I'm not going to claim that it's all that easy to avoid involuntary committments even with the reforms in the laws since the 60's. And when I think about it without thinking of myself or someone I know as a potential victim of such tactics, I'm not sure that I want it changed all that much more. (Not to imply support for some of the shadier things that you mentioned happening - esp. the transfer between facilities to restart the clock.) Just saying that there are still some people who are kept, and treated, involuntarily who are both hazards to themselves and/or others, and who won't (and in many cases can't) offer consent to treatment.

As you pointed out above there is a snarky way to look at people who come in looking for inpatient treatment: Those who really need it never ask for it. I know you said it's not really a fact, but that snarky view of things does hold a certain amount of truth for all that it is an exaggeration.

My personal strategy for getting out sooner, if I felt that I was being held against my will, would have been to appear as cooperative as possible. I want to say that would appear to me the most reasonable way to get out - but I have to admit that after serving in the Navy onboard a ship, even limited freedoms in a hospital wing are generally more freedom than I'd had while at sea. (I got huge respect from the nurses and other patients for having the foresight to ask for a script for tobasco. Apparantly not many people considered that aspect to being committed, prior to their first meal.) As much as it seems intuitive to me to use the strategy I'd outlined, I have to admit that considering your experience, and that of What Exit?'s friend, it seems I'm the one with the minority view on this issue.

Either way, as I said before in this thread - your warnings, while my experience suggests such incidents are more limited than you imply, are a good way to make sure that patients going in for treatment are aware of their rights and responsibilities. Which can only be a good thing. The more people take the time and effort to research their health the better off they are.

While I'd like to hear your view of the court procedings, I can make some guesses. Frankly, I've been involved on the periphery of some other court room drama (including a child custody case, where the one parent accused me of being a borderline pedophile for watching anime) and I know that appearing other than calm, focused and reasoned in court is a mistake. Alas, I can see how someone thinking their liberty is being taken away without due concern for their rights would have a hard time being calm, focused and reasoned. Desperate, emotional, and barely restrained would seem more likely to me for most people. Which will predispose the judge against such persons being reasonable.

[Zoe]

What Exit?: It gets you on the treadmill.

That "treadmill" that you speak of has literally saved the lives of some of the people who post here. I am one of them.

There is a reason why clinical depression is recognized as a disabling and sometimes terminal illness. One member of my family did not survive depression.

If people are just feeling "depressed" and they mean that they have a case of the funky blues, then exercise, getting new hobbies and fresh air and waiting may be enough. But if they may be clinically depressed -- even though exercise and fresh air are still good for them -- they need to see a physician just as they would with any other illness that may relate to brain chemistry.

It is inappropriate to diagnose anyone over the internet. That's why it is appropriate to encourage Dopers with medical symptoms to seeks professional opinions. (That is the way that some of us understood what Kytheria posted.)

BTW, you write well enough. You could easily have pointed out my own errors.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Zoe

That "treadmill" that you speak of has literally saved the lives of some of the people who post here. I am one of them.

There is a reason why clinical depression is recognized as a disabling and sometimes terminal illness. One member of my family did not survive depression.

If people are just feeling "depressed" and they mean that they have a case of the funky blues, then exercise, getting new hobbies and fresh air and waiting may be enough. But if they may be clinically depressed -- even though exercise and fresh air are still good for them -- they need to see a physician just as they would with any other illness that may relate to brain chemistry.

It is inappropriate to diagnose anyone over the internet. That's why it is appropriate to encourage Dopers with medical symptoms to seeks professional opinions. (That is the way that some of us understood what Kytheria posted.)

BTW, you write well enough. You could easily have pointed out my own errors.

Zoe, I am sorry, I have to go to sleep. I never said a lot of people don't get a lot of good help from Mental Health Providers. I just keep desperately trying to say that I thought the quick leaps to Go see a doctor was premature from the very brief post Kytheria made. You disagree with me fine, I get it, I choose to disagee.
Have a very good night.

Jim

[Zoe]

Then we agree to disagree. I have no problem with that. I wish you a restful night and a pleasant day.

[kimera]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Do you honestly think I LIKE taking meds everyday? In my case, I have OCD, and behavior modification techniques combined with meds is what worked.

The post I made wasn't even directed at you (nor against people who take meds/see docs), but since you took it as such : Has it worked? I'm not trying to be snarky here, it's just that the last I heard of you, your life wasn't exactly going the way it should be at this point.

I'm not saying that docs and meds can't help you, just that they can only take you so far. Of all the people I know who've managed to successfully break away from their depression, they all first began with regular drugs and docs but eventually moved away from that. Some of them still have to take pills and talk to their therapists but most of them don't and none of them rely on it.

When you think you are crazy, when everyone tells you that you are crazy, then it is easy to stay there. I learned how powerful the mind can be when I hallucinated while going through a very bad spell of depression. If my mind can convince me that my skin is wearing away, then it can also convince me that I am happy. You can change your brain waves you know. It's not hard to stimulate the left side of your brain. Try it sometime, it just might work.

Depression will often strike when NOTHING is apparently wrong.

I know, I have it. I originally went down this path not because I wanted to but because I had no insurance so I couldn't get the drugs or docs even if I wanted to.

[Rubystreak]

Originally Posted by kimera

The post I made wasn't even directed at you (nor against people who take meds/see docs), but since you took it as such : Has it worked? I'm not trying to be snarky here, it's just that the last I heard of you, your life wasn't exactly going the way it should be at this point.

So are drugs supposed to make your life go exactly the way it should go? I don't know of any pill that can do that, and I'd venture a guess that's not the reason most people take them.

If a person has a chemical imbalance that responds to medication, the drugs just make the troughs shallower. In the past, they have gotten me out of the depths of despair. Once I'm dealing with a more level playing field, then I have to do the work. I have felt victimized by the way my brain worked, and medication helps me keep those out of control feelings and thought processes in control. Believe me, I've tried the modifying those cycles by sheer will alone, and it just does not always work when things get really bad.

As for the "treadmill effect," I don't buy it. Most people I know who have taken meds for depression are only on them cyclically.

I'm not saying that docs and meds can't help you, just that they can only take you so far.

Who said otherwise?

If my mind can convince me that my skin is wearing away, then it can also convince me that I am happy. You can change your brain waves you know. It's not hard to stimulate the left side of your brain. Try it sometime, it just might work.

Riiiight. And diabetics should use their brain waves to fix their insulin problem. Some people do need to be medicated. Can you accept that and not tell people they should just cure themselves? It belittles the fact that depression is, for a lot of people, a physiological problem, not just something they could "snap out of" if only the would make the effort.

I know, I have it. I originally went down this path not because I wanted to but because I had no insurance so I couldn't get the drugs or docs even if I wanted to.

Most not-for-profit mental health clinics have fees on sliding scales for people who don't have insurance.

[davenportavenger]

Hi, I just found this thread and haven't read through it all yet (though I did read the link in the OP) but I wanted to show support for AHunter3. While he does hijack sometimes (I know because he has hijacked at least one of my threads), I don't believe the linked thread was a hijack. When you consider an issue it is important to take all sides, especially those sides that are based on personal experience. AH3's experience is no less (and no more) relevant than Guin's experience, or Zoe's, or anyone in this thread that has experience, and I think it is incredibly counterproductive and yeah, arrogant, to say "oh, don't listen to him" (as Guin said to Kyth in the linked thread). AH3 never said anything like that to the people who were recommending that Kyth go to a doctor; he just set out his experience so she could take it as she wanted to. I guess I just really don't like the idea of someone saying "don't listen to him" on a board where we are ostensibly all adults capable of sorting wheat from chaff. It feels like shutting down dialogue. Especially when AH3 is so not a troll who lambasts psychiatry for the hell of it or because Xenu told him to; he has real reasons for thinking the way he does even if one does not agree with his conclusions (I don't agree with him all the time).

I do sometimes think people on this board are way too eager to diagnose people based on a one-paragraph OP. Those types of Internet surveys are designed to get people to seek help, especially if they are hosted by the drug companies (most of the "about depression" pages on the Internet are hosted by drug companies, especially the flashy ones with their own domain). I don't think that psychiatry is evil, however, I do think that being a new discipline it has more of a "possibility of fuck-up" than other areas of medicine, so one shouldn't just put their lives into the hands of the doctors, one has to be more pro-active about one's recovery. (This assumes that Kyth does have depression, which she may not.) The important thing is to be informed and look at all sides of the issue, and I think that means reading AH3's posts in addition to those posts by people who were helped by psychiatry.

But to throw another data point on the "all doctors just want to drug you and lock you up" graph, the only time I ever went to see a doctor (a GP) about my anxiety he spent half the visit talking about my sexual history and what I'm using for contraception, chastising me for using the calendar method, and throwing off my talk about my anxiety with a "do you feel you have more stress than other people?" sort of verbal hand-waving gesture (he did not even look at the "health complaint" sheet that I had to fill out in the waiting room). It really pissed me off because I did not have insurance at the time and was paying for the visit out of my own money and he didn't even address my primary complaint. I've said it before, whether GPs, psychiatrists, dentists, or whatever, all doctors are quacks. Okay, more like 92%. And that includes all the ones I've ever seen!

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by davenportavenger

...snip...
. I've said it before, whether GPs, psychiatrists, dentists, or whatever, all doctors are quacks. Okay, more like 92%. And that includes all the ones I've ever seen!

Well I liked the fact you basically supported my position with your post until I got to the last Paragraph. I just can't accept the quacks line and the 92%. I hope you were joking and I am being obtuse. There are Doctors that do little more than act as HMO 'Script' writers but as I said earlier I think this would be closer to 10-20%, nowhere near 92%.
I do agree with the bulk of what you said in the first two paragraphs.

Jim

[davenportavenger]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

I just can't accept the quacks line and the 92%. I hope you were joking and I am being obtuse.

Yeah, I was being facetious. It does seem like I have had exceptionally bad luck with doctors, though. Like the woman I went to last week (my celebratory physical I arranged just because I have insurance and can do that now) to whom I also brought up my anxiety who also talked about my reproductive system for most of the session (she was not as dismissive as the first doctor, though she wouldn't talk about it either). Shit, I must really look promiscuous, and also, like an idiot.

[irishgirl]

In about 18 months (providing I pass my finals) I'll be working as a junior doctor in a psychiatric hospital for 4 months. It is not a specialty I am particulalry interested in, nor is it something I'm particularly looking forward to, but Og dammit I'm absolutely going to do my best for my patients.

And you know what, I'm going to be looking after people like Ahunter3, Siege and Guin and I'm probably going to look after them all differently.

[AHunter3]

Good luck with your rotation!

[ENugent]

Originally Posted by davenportavenger

Like the woman I went to last week (my celebratory physical I arranged just because I have insurance and can do that now) to whom I also brought up my anxiety who also talked about my reproductive system for most of the session (she was not as dismissive as the first doctor, though she wouldn't talk about it either). Shit, I must really look promiscuous, and also, like an idiot.

Nah, some doctors just seem to be hardwired that the only things that can go wrong with a woman are with the reproductive system. I was hospitalized for a week with a high, cycling fever (up to 105F) a couple of years ago. The only pain I had when I was admitted was in my neck, but I had complained about cramps to my GYN the day before. They decided that I had a uterine infection despite the fact that I was now totally pain-free in that area, and I had to pretty much throw a fit to get them to consider that I had body parts other than a uterus (oh, and breasts - I was nursing at the time, and I displayed my breasts to show that I had no signs of mastitis roughly twice a day the whole time I was there). Even when I did manage to talk to someone who wasn't a GYN, he ended up ordering an MRI on my uterus, and when it came up totally clean, he told me that it must be a silent uterine infection. Once I got out and talked to my regular internist, she said that it sounded like classic viral meningitis.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by irishgirl

In about 18 months (providing I pass my finals) I'll be working as a junior doctor in a psychiatric hospital for 4 months. It is not a specialty I am particulalry interested in, nor is it something I'm particularly looking forward to, but Og dammit I'm absolutely going to do my best for my patients.

And you know what, I'm going to be looking after people like Ahunter3, Siege and Guin and I'm probably going to look after them all differently.

Good Luck, do good, heal thy patients and don't get jaded.

Jim

[kimera]

Originally Posted by Rubystreak

So are drugs supposed to make your life go exactly the way it should go?

I did not say that. I am in agreement with you on this first part. Drugs can help you get out of the lows, but you need more than just drugs to get you to where you are close to being a functional member of society.

Who said otherwise?

It was implied that that's what I was saying. I'm not. I'm not saying that drugs and docs don't work for a lot of people, I'm just saying that they can make it worse and I've found that you can't rely on them alone.

Riiiight. And diabetics should use their brain waves to fix their insulin problem. Some people do need to be medicated. Can you accept that and not tell people they should just cure themselves? It belittles the fact that depression is, for a lot of people, a physiological problem, not just something they could "snap out of" if only the would make the effort.

Did you read the links I posted? It's not just "snapping out of it," it is stimulating the under stimulated part of your brain which causes depression in the first place. It's not just happy thoughts but a concentrated effort to change the patterns of your brain waves which naturally increases the levels of serotonin. I didn't mean to imply that this is the case in all states of depression. I have no idea what it's like for those with clincal depression, my depression is entirely biological. I don't know if this treatment would work on those with clinical depression as well.

The people who helped me out of my crazy/depressed state were not those that coddled me. I've seen people who've been on various drugs and to various doctors for their entire lives and haven't managed to accomplish shit. They are in their 30s and still live with their parents and manage to blame everyone and everything else for their situation but themselves. For these people, drugs and docs did nothing for them. They use their depression as a crutch and blame everything on their condition.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by kimera

I did not say that. I am in agreement with you on this first part. Drugs can help you get out of the lows, but you need more than just drugs to get you to where you are close to being a functional member of society.



It was implied that that's what I was saying. I'm not. I'm not saying that drugs and docs don't work for a lot of people, I'm just saying that they can make it worse and I've found that you can't rely on them alone.




Did you read the links I posted? It's not just "snapping out of it," it is stimulating the under stimulated part of your brain which causes depression in the first place. It's not just happy thoughts but a concentrated effort to change the patterns of your brain waves which naturally increases the levels of serotonin. I didn't mean to imply that this is the case in all states of depression. I have no idea what it's like for those with clincal depression, my depression is entirely biological. I don't know if this treatment would work on those with clinical depression as well.

The people who helped me out of my crazy/depressed state were not those that coddled me. I've seen people who've been on various drugs and to various doctors for their entire lives and haven't managed to accomplish shit. They are in their 30s and still live with their parents and manage to blame everyone and everything else for their situation but themselves. For these people, drugs and docs did nothing for them. They use their depression as a crutch and blame everything on their condition.

(Just a nitpick...clinical depression is any depression that requires a doctor's intervention...biological or otherwise -- though I think most/all true depressions are biological to some degree).

I agree with you. I think some people get so wrapped up in the "me! me! me!" of depression that they don't realize they're their own worst enemy. Getting your mind off of yourself can do wonders for your general well-being. You can get a feeling of accomplishment and self-worth by focusing on someone/something that isn't YOU or your ILLNESS. I realize this is hard for deeply depressed people, but many people can benefit from pushing themselves (or having a family member help with the pushing) into motion.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

...
I agree with you. I think some people get so wrapped up in the "me! me! me!" of depression that they don't realize they're their own worst enemy. Getting your mind off of yourself can do wonders for your general well-being. You can get a feeling of accomplishment and self-worth by focusing on someone/something that isn't YOU or your ILLNESS. I realize this is hard for deeply depressed people, but many people can benefit from pushing themselves (or having a family member help with the pushing) into motion.

This has been so true for me; from age 15 to 22 I use to swing from very High to very low like a classic Manic Depressive or what they now seem to call Bi-polar.
I learned to recognize both swings and I learned to decrease them. I guess I was just lucky but I was able to learn to catch myself before the peaks happened and eventually the cycle became very mild. Now after a day of feeling low, I notice and I head down to my workshop and build something for my kids. It knocks me out of the downhill slide so well.

I do miss the highs, but I know that the highs were always followed by lows.
So I guess I hit upon what Kimera was saying without reading into it or really knowing what I was doing.

Jim

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

It gets you on the treadmill. You see a doctor, they are not a very good Doctor and he prescribes the Pills that the Drug companies are pushing that month. This now throws you even further out of whack as he prescribed a drug for depression when you were really just in a long funk as Kalhoun so well put it.
Now the drugs really throw you off and you end up on others drugs and seeing a mental health specialist and the treadmill is moving quicker.

I get what you're saying, but not going to a doctor because of a fear that he MIGHT be a quack and he MIGHT do something wrong isn't very good logic. I believe I already said it would be like avoiding have a lump in your breast checked out on the off chance the doctor would immediately call for a masectomy.

IF one goes to a crappy doctor, and IF he immediately starts pushing pills and making you feel uncomfortable, like he's not listening, you get a second opinion. The first shrink I visited was terrible. Then I found my therapist-who, btw, wasn't a psychiatrist or even a psychologist. She was a licensed counselor. I saw a psychiatrist she reccomended (REALLY nice and wonderful doctor, btw), but I mostly talked to her.

Part of what I learned was-don't start worrying "what if". Take it one step at a time. Yes, change things in your life. But don't be afraid to talk to your own physician.



kimera-indeed it has worked. And actually, my life has taken a turn for the better lately. Things aren't perfect, but they're definitely improving and getting better and better. It may not be where it quite should be, but it's getting there.

As for the meds, like I said, it's not so much depression as an anxiety disorder. The depression was caused by my untreated anxiety disorder. I had had bad episodes previously, but this was a full on breakdown.

For an example of how bad it can get-and this was years before I was diagnosed-when I was about ten years old, I caught a bad case of stomach flu, and threw up nine times within about 8 hours. After that, for months, every time I felt the slightest bit of pain in my stomach, I'd panic and think I was going to vomit. I started drinking glass after glass after glass of water at night, thinking that if I did so, I'd belch and then I'd feel better. Makes no sense, right? Well, that didn't matter. I'd wake up every night at 1 am and I thought if I could just make it until oh, 4:30 (when I first got sick the last time), I'd be okay. If I heard someone had stomach flu, I'd freak out. It was awful. And of course, my stomach would be upset-from NERVES.

Eventually, I got over it (strangely enough, after I got stomach flu a SECOND time and realized I was making myself feel even worse by obsessing.)

OCD cannot be reasoned away by telling oneself that your fears are ridiculous. In fact, trying to do so only feeds the obsessing, so you make it even worse. Trying to reason with it is the last thing you want to do. In my case, what worked best was total distraction. I started buying tons of Star Wars novels and reading them. Yes, it sounds hopelessly lame, but that was a HUGE help-I could get lost in a novel, and forget everything. Another was breathing exercises to help myself calm down.

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

OCD cannot be reasoned away by telling oneself that your fears are ridiculous. In fact, trying to do so only feeds the obsessing, so you make it even worse. Trying to reason with it is the last thing you want to do. In my case, what worked best was total distraction.

The thing about OCD, as Guin said, is that knowing you have it isn't enough. With many mental disorders, once people accept that they have those problems (often difficult in itself), they're able to consciously "fight" those impulses or behaviours. A person with OCD can't do this - we know we have OCD, we know we're acting illogically, and yet the compulsion for whatever behaviour remains. The mental "fight" against that compulsion leaves us stressed even if we are able to temporarily beat that urge.

Distraction is my method of dealing with it as well - if i'm on autopilot, then new, obsessive thoughts don't tend to enter as frequently.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold

The thing about OCD, as Guin said, is that knowing you have it isn't enough. With many mental disorders, once people accept that they have those problems (often difficult in itself), they're able to consciously "fight" those impulses or behaviours. A person with OCD can't do this - we know we have OCD, we know we're acting illogically, and yet the compulsion for whatever behaviour remains. The mental "fight" against that compulsion leaves us stressed even if we are able to temporarily beat that urge.

Distraction is my method of dealing with it as well - if i'm on autopilot, then new, obsessive thoughts don't tend to enter as frequently.

Look, I don't know anything about OCD beyond the little I can glean from a few epsiodes of Monk. I thought we were talking about Depression. I think Kimera, Kalhoun, myself and others were all talking about depression. Kytheria was posting about depression. Where did OCD suddnely come from, did I miss something?

Jim

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

Look, I don't know anything about OCD beyond the little I can glean from a few epsiodes of Monk. I thought we were talking about Depression. I think Kimera, Kalhoun, myself and others were all talking about depression. Kytheria was posting about depression. Where did OCD suddnely come from, did I miss something?

Sorry, just thought i'd back up Guin on a couple of points. I apologise for the hijacking.

Re: Depression, I sort of agree with kimera. Drugs can make you worse, but at their very best effect only help with the symptoms of depression - they don't have any effect on the actual cause, whatever that may be. A better, more permanent solution would be to change whatever the cause of your depression is - and if it's source is, as kimera says, that a region of the brain is relatively unstimulated, then therapy or forced mental training/forced distraction could indeed be of benefit. If that's not the source, it won't be as helpful. Drugs are effective no matter what the cause of depression is.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold

Sorry, just thought i'd back up Guin on a couple of points. I apologise for the hijacking.

Re: Depression, I sort of agree with kimera. Drugs can make you worse, but at their very best effect only help with the symptoms of depression - they don't have any effect on the actual cause, whatever that may be. A better, more permanent solution would be to change whatever the cause of your depression is - and if it's source is, as kimera says, that a region of the brain is relatively unstimulated, then therapy or forced mental training/forced distraction could indeed be of benefit. If that's not the source, it won't be as helpful. Drugs are effective no matter what the cause of depression is.

Hey that fine, I just have to admit total ignorance about OCD. If that's where this thread heads next I will gladly bow out. Depression I understand. Thankfully I did get over it with just a little help from my friends.

Jim

[Guinastasia]

Sorry, I was just explaining why I, personally, am still on meds, even after the depression is gone.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Another point on depression and OCD: certain drugs prescribed for depression will also relieve the symptoms of OCD, as I discovered with Zoloft. Maintaining myself on the smallest therapeutic dose has made a significant change in my moods and functioning, with no apparent side effects. Worked for me. May or may not work as well for anyone else.

As Guin pointed out, OCD is one form of diseased thinking that benefits from not thinking about it.

[Rubystreak]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

Hey that fine, I just have to admit total ignorance about OCD. If that's where this thread heads next I will gladly bow out. Depression I understand. Thankfully I did get over it with just a little help from my friends.

After a while, there's nothing your friends can do, and I for one feel guilty for burdening them with it when things get bad. For some of us, going to the doctor and getting on meds IS helping ourselves. Don't you think we'd "modify our brain waves" if we could? It would certainly save me some money.

Suffice it to say, everyone handles depression differently. I'm not going to subscribe to an anti-psychiatry stance and I wouldn't try to convince anyone to go on meds. I also don't think it's wrong to suggest someone go to a doctor, so sorry.