What methods did the Germans use to determine who was Jewish?

[Voluble]

I remember in my childhood I would wonder how the Protestants would tell who was a Catholic and vice versa in Northern Ireland. Living in the US that type of conflict is unfathomable. How do you know who your enemies are if you can't tell by looking? Do you wear uniforms or only live in certain areas? Do you only bomb churches? How do you know the person you killed didn't agree with you politically even if they were of another religion? With gang "wars" in the US each side picks a color and style of dress (a uniform) so they know who their enemies are. It would be infinitely more difficult to sort out civilians by religion, especially if they didn't want to be sorted out.

I imagine the same thing applied to Jews during the Nazi pogroms. Did the Nazis only want to exterminate the Jewish race or did they round up anyone who practiced the religion? What methods did they use to find out who was trying to pass as German? What percentage of your lineage had to be Jewish? Who made the determination and was there any means for appeal? I know in many cases they just rounded up whole neighborhoods and there was summary judgment but I seem to recall hearing of people who appealed the decision in one way or another.

BTW this whole thing is particularly topical since there are reports today that the Iranians (or at least the whack jobs in charge) may make non-muslims wear patches or other forms of identification that will be color coded by religion. It remains to be seen if the reports are true or just rumors in the expatriate community but it is certainly in line with the ruling mullah's rhetoric of late.

[alphaboi867]

As part of the German tax system Germans register what religion they are with the civil registrar. If you list a major religion (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish) you pay a Church Tax that helps fund that religious group. If you list no religion or list a minor one you don't pay tax.

[Paul in Qatar]

Under the Nazi (Proto Nazi) philosophy being Jewish was a biological, not a religious thing. If were a Jew you could not change that. (Conversely, I would suppose you could be an observant Jew who was biologically something else. This however would be a difficult argument to make with the nice man in the jackboots.)

Many ideas as to how to determine race were kicked around. Perhaps most bizarre was to measure the front-to-rear and the port-to-starboard of your head and express those measurements as a ratio.

But, in any case, the Nazis had (and used) all the devices of a modern nation to identify Jews. They had years to do it. Tax records, census stuff, school forms all helped. Of course your neighbors could be relied upon to report any sort of clue.

Then one day a man came around with box of index cards.

Of course now we have computers.

[BrainGlutton]

It wasn't always easy. The Master speaks: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html

But in most cases it was simply known. Even in the cases of secular, non-practicing, or even atheistic ethnic Jews (of which Karl Marx was one, likewise Leo Trotsky, and every Nazi knew it).

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Originally Posted by Paul in Saudi

Of course now we have computers.

They did then, too.

See http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/060...lance&n=283155

"A new book and lawsuit claim that the German wing of IBM used its tabulating machinery to help Adolf Hitler identify and persecute victims of the Holocaust.

In writing the book, "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation," author Edwin Black enlisted a team of 100 researchers to investigate the Nazi regime's use of Hollerith tabulators, the mainframe computer of the time.

Black, a noted Holocaust investigator, wrote the book to shed light on IBM's business dealings during the World War II era and the alleged extent of the company's involvement with Nazi Germany." (From Newsfactor magazine.)

[Mops]

Also when challenged you'd better be in a position to supply proof of your ancestors being baptised (if your four grandparents were you were off the hook for the major modes of persecution, but e.g. to own a farm you needed documentation for the preceding 200 years' ancestors)

[Mops]

Originally Posted by tschild

...for the preceding 200 years' ancestors)

I must correct myself - on looking up the law's text the period covered was only from January 1, 1800.

[Fish Cheer]

Originally Posted by tschild

I must correct myself - on looking up the law's text the period covered was only from January 1, 1800.

.. or 1750 for higher echelons in the SS.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

I remember in my childhood I would wonder how the Protestants would tell who was a Catholic and vice versa in Northern Ireland. Living in the US that type of conflict is unfathomable. How do you know who your enemies are if you can't tell by looking? Do you wear uniforms or only live in certain areas? Do you only bomb churches?

With respect to Northern Ireland, yes, this is exactly how it is. Certain areas are Catholic areas and others are Protestant. It's the same, to a lesser extent, in Glasgow, Scotland.

[Kevlaur]

I imagine the same thing applied to Jews during the Nazi pogroms. Did the Nazis only want to exterminate the Jewish race or did they round up anyone who practiced the religion? What methods did they use to find out who was trying to pass as German? What percentage of your lineage had to be Jewish? Who made the determination and was there any means for appeal? I know in many cases they just rounded up whole neighborhoods and there was summary judgment but I seem to recall hearing of people who appealed the decision in one way or another.

A section in Richard L. Rubenstein's 'The Cunning of History';
talks of the Reich bureacracy coming up with a definition of
'Jewish,' from there the churches would
show who was 'Aryan.' Chilling stuff. He references Raul Hilberg's
'The destruction of the European Jews.'

Kevlaur

[Paul in Qatar]

I have always thought IBM gets a bum rap on this. First off, certainly the history is correct. IBM's German subsidiary did help the Nazis in their persecution of the Jews.

But so did Ford, GM/Opel and every other US or all-German company in Germany at the time. Everyone and every company did.

It seems to be wrong to pick out one company to be singled out.

[elmwood]

Quite easily possible now in the US and Canada, too, without raiding the records of synagogues and Jewish organizations, or performing DNA tests. Just some easy data mining, and a little bit of field work.

* Supermarket discount card records: find out who buys a lot of Manichewitz products, or even a little.

* Credit card records: any recent purchases of Judaica?

* USPS and Canada Post: find out who recives local Jewish newspapers, synagogue newsletters, fundraising appeals from Jewish charities, and the like.

* Field survey: look for mezuzot on front doorposts.

* Just to be sure, look for a corrolary with addresses in neighborhoods that have a larger-than-normal Jewish population. In most US communities, the majority of Jews will be concentrated on one side of town; not so much a ghetto, but rather in middle to uupepr middle class neighborhoods in the general direction of Jewish migration from the central city.

With a high level of intermarriage in the US and Canada, looking for Jewish-sounding names alone is much less accurate. I've met Catholics named Goldstein, and Jews named Anderson. Converts to Judaism adopt a Hebrew name, but don't change their legal birth names.

[Fish Cheer]

Originally Posted by elmwood

Just some easy data mining, and a little bit of field work.

Interesting link on data mining.