I sentence you to insanity!

[Ludovic]

For several years I have avoided this subject in the interests of respecting privacy, but I can't pass this up.

Some may say insanity is a fate worse than death. So be it. Don't give her (or him, if it should come up,) any mind-affecting medication. Our tax dollars are not worth helping those who decided to live outside society.

I revel in the thought that both perpetrators might spend decades chased by unshakable pain, unable to form coherent thoughts and bearing an almost unbearable burden of demons from within. Even if they don't reflect on what they did they won't be safe.

I'm sick.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

I'm sick.

You should be medicated, then....

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Our tax dollars are not worth helping those who decided to live outside society.

Even if that would expose prison guards to unnecessary danger from psychotic inmates? Some sense of righteous retribution you have there.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Even if that would expose prison guards to unnecessary danger from psychotic inmates? Some sense of righteous retribution you have there.

On the contrary, guard don't have to be exposed at all.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

On the contrary, guard don't have to be exposed at all.

Elucidate.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Elucidate.

Yes, please do.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Even if that would expose prison guards to unnecessary danger from psychotic inmates? Some sense of righteous retribution you have there.

There's nothing in the article to indicate that the patient is dangerous to guards or to herself. "Psychotic" doesn't always mean dangerous. She could be catatonic, for all I know.

I'd separate the issue into two categories: aggressive towards others and not. The first, I'd support forced medication (or alternatively, solitary confinment with no medical care, though that's a bit harsh even for a person with no grasp of reality). The second - let them stay unmedicated if they wish.

[Earthworm Jim]

I'm not certain I understand...Isn't it more important that the defendant was mentally competent at the time the crime was committed, rather than during the trial? I have to assume this enforced medication doesn't preclude an "insanity" plea.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Earthworm Jim

I'm not certain I understand...Isn't it more important that the defendant was mentally competent at the time the crime was committed, rather than during the trial? I have to assume this enforced medication doesn't preclude an "insanity" plea.

It's important that the defendant be competent during the trial so that she may participate in her defense. If the defendant's hallucinating, hearing voices, so paranoid that she thinks her own defense lawyers are out to get her, and so forth, she cannot assist in her defense and is deprived of a fair trial. In America we consider that a bad thing.

[Excalibre]

Originally Posted by Earthworm Jim

I'm not certain I understand...Isn't it more important that the defendant was mentally competent at the time the crime was committed, rather than during the trial? I have to assume this enforced medication doesn't preclude an "insanity" plea.

No, but if you're sufficiently crazy at the time of trial, it makes you unable to assist in your own defense, which - at least according to the l33t criminal law education I've gotten from Law & Order - is sufficient to avoid a trial. I mean, if the person is nutso enough that they can't even communicate with their lawyer, then there's no way to give them a real trial.

[Ike Witt]

Of course, there is also the issue of a state (I think it is Texas -sigh) who wants to medicate a man so he is competent enough to be executed.

How close are we to the point of being able to change a persons brain chemistry to achieve whatever goal we desire?

[Kalhoun]

I'm torn on this subject. I don't believe in forced medication but I also think that a fair trial is impossible without it. It won't change the state of mind she was in when she committed the crime, and I'm confident the medication would have a positive effect on the quality of her defense. But forcing medication? Hmmm...that really doesn't sit right with me.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Yes, please do.

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.

So all inmates with treatable mental illnesses should be put in solitary confinement? Jeez, you must like raising taxes more than I do.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.

Feel the love...

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.

Guards, nurses, and doctors will still have to interact with them periodically. And people are sent to prisons as a punishment, not to be punished.

Would you like to have a career where the expectation is that you torment people? Or even one where you must witness their continual torment? Even if society decides that such torment is justified, such a job will take a terrible, terrible toll on the person doing it.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally Posted by Excalibre

No, but if you're sufficiently crazy at the time of trial, it makes you unable to assist in your own defense, which - at least according to the l33t criminal law education I've gotten from Law & Order - is sufficient to avoid a trial. I mean, if the person is nutso enough that they can't even communicate with their lawyer, then there's no way to give them a real trial.

Speaking of L&O, I think I just saw a rerun the other day that used this. A crazy guy raped and killed his girlfriend, and when he was about to go on trial he stopped taking his meds and went catatonic. The judge ruled that he could be forcibly medicated so that he could participate in his own defense.

I wonder if there will be a disclaimer at the start of this trial that says, "The events of this trial were based on a Law & Order script."

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Would you like to have a career where the expectation is that you torment people?

Naw, it's more of an avocation. If you look at my previous posting history I am normally the first person to advocate for humane conditions and against punishments including the death penalty, but that it only because some of those affected aren't guilty. While I acknowledge the intellectual possibility in this case I just can't be objective about it, which is another reason I have avoided this topic.

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty.

Say Ludovic, what's it like to live in the 17th century?

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Naw, it's more of an avocation. If you look at my previous posting history I am normally the first person to advocate for humane conditions and against punishments including the death penalty, but that it only because some of those affected aren't guilty. While I acknowledge the intellectual possibility in this case I just can't be objective about it, which is another reason I have avoided this topic.

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

That's not the only problem. One other would be why would a person want to be a heartless sadist?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

::blinking in surprise::

I thought I was the evil one hereabouts.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Say Ludovic, what's it like to live in the 17th century?

Well, they also had the Inquisition, not known for its enlightened stance on the possibility of innocence. But other than that, I feel fine.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty.

Good to know. I'll make a note of it.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

So you'd punish 10 innocents in order to punish the one guilty, basically?

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

So you'd punish 10 innocents in order to punish the one guilty, basically?

How did that calculus come about?

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

[woodstockbirdybird]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

How did that calculus come about?

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

You're a cunt.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by woodstockbirdybird

You're a cunt.

A dumb one.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

How did that calculus come about?

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

It wasn't an exact calculation-I just pulled numbers out of my ass. My point is-how many innocents suffering is worth it to punish one guilty person?

[Daithi Lacha]

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move? That must have meant they knew the difference between right and wrong, and were able to communicate cohererently with each other, to be able to plan and implement those plans. What are the chances that both would now suddenly be incompetent?

to the 9th power

[Kalhoun]

As I remember it (and I don't particularly trust my aging memory) I think the woman was pretty wigged-out when they picked them up. I don't recall the man's condition too much, but you can be pretty mental and still appear to be functioning normally.

[Indygrrl]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

I'd be concerned that anyone who is willing to do that job is just as violent and mentally ill as the prisoners they are "punishing." And then there's that whole cruel and unusual part of the constitution, but I guess you aren't factoring that into your little scenario.

[Ludovic]

There'd be a lot of other stuff I'd be willing to change given the dramatic revisions in epistemology necessary to pursue my scenario. So yes, in that case I wouldn't mind cruel and unusual punishment. OTOH:

-- I'd only support this for just laws, and
-- There is always the argument that other people could turn this punishment against myself or political enemies,

So that's 3 reasons not to implement it in actuality.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty.

Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.

You, OTOH are much more eager to assert certainty than I. Who's being careless now?

[zagloba]

Originally Posted by Daithi Lacha

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move?

Without commenting on their sanity, for most of that time she wasn't all that well hidden. Take a listen to Scott Carrier's radio piece "Invisible Girl", linked at the bottom of this page :

For weeks after teenager Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped from her Salt Lake City bedroom, she walked the streets with her captors, sometimes just blocks from her home. Yet no one ever recognized her. Not a soul, even though her picture was in every paper the entire time.

This story was first broadcast on "This American Life," and is a fascinating listen. Carrier lived in Smart's neighborhood. IIRC, Carrier's son describes seeing Smart and her captors around town. Many people just assumed the guy had taken a plural wife.

[Ghanima]

Originally Posted by Daithi Lacha

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move? That must have meant they knew the difference between right and wrong, and were able to communicate cohererently with each other, to be able to plan and implement those plans. What are the chances that both would now suddenly be incompetent?

to the 9th power

With all due respect, I disagree. If I believed that I was the messiah and that policemen were instruments of the devil to be avoided at all costs, and that my many underaged husbands (as commanded by God) would be taken from me by these devil-worshipping villains, and therefore I was very careful to avoid detection, would that mean that I really knew the difference between right and wrong?

[Excalibre]

Originally Posted by Ghanima

With all due respect, I disagree. If I believed that I was the messiah and that policemen were instruments of the devil to be avoided at all costs, and that my many underaged husbands (as commanded by God) would be taken from me by these devil-worshipping villains, and therefore I was very careful to avoid detection, would that mean that I really knew the difference between right and wrong?

Ghanima, is there something you're not telling us?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally Posted by Excalibre

Ghanima, is there something you're not telling us?

It means she has interesting hobbies.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.

Ahem...that's dumb. Dumb cunt. Sheesh.

[Daithi Lacha]

Originally Posted by zagloba

Without commenting on their sanity, for most of that time she wasn't all that well hidden. Take a listen to Scott Carrier's radio piece "Invisible Girl", linked at the bottom of this page :This story was first broadcast on "This American Life," and is a fascinating listen. Carrier lived in Smart's neighborhood. IIRC, Carrier's son describes seeing Smart and her captors around town. Many people just assumed the guy had taken a plural wife.

Thank you very much for that link. And Ghanima, a good point, and well made. I retract my opinion, without prejudice. Seems like there's no counting the screw-ups walking around out there!

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

Speak for yourself, pal.

I'm always amused (amused? that's not right. appalled! that's it) I'm always appalled at those who believe the solution to punishing criminals includes the agents of society being more inhumane than the criminals themselves.

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

Ahem...that's dumb. Dumb cunt. Sheesh.

Around here, one can't keep track of the epithets without a scorecard.

[Stealth Potato]

Ludovic, I can't help but get this vibe that you advocate inflicting horrible torment on criminals who also happen to be mentally ill. That's not justice; that's sadistic, bloodthirsty revenge, and no civilized person would ever consider it. Seriously, what the hell are you smoking? "Decided to live outside society"? Are you honestly saying that these people just up and decided one day to go crazy? Maybe gave themselves a little icepick lobotomy to speed up the process? And you say you would "revel" in their pain and suffering? It sounds like you have some seriously deep insecurity issues, pal.

If you just forgot to take your meds today and you're feeling cranky and a little bit sociopathic, I forgive you.

Otherwise, fuck you, you fucking sick sack of... crap. Yeah, I'm not too good at this swearing thing.

[Ludovic]

I'm not saying I don't deserve these epithets, yet I can't help but feel this way. Normally, even if guilt is %100 assured, the intellectual side of me wishes to impose a punishment that minimizes the suffering of those not guilty, whether it be death, imprisonment, torture, fluffy bunny huggies, or what have you. But there's something about this that makes me feel differently, and I don't like it, which is a reason I have avoided this topic for so long.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

I'm not saying I don't deserve these epithets, yet I can't help but feel this way.

Were you subjected to abuse as a child, or did your parents inflict painful physical punishment on you? I have noticed a correlation between posters who share your need for strict retribution, and a history of child abuse. Care to share?

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Frank

Speak for yourself, pal.

I'm always amused (amused? that's not right. appalled! that's it) I'm always appalled at those who believe the solution to punishing criminals includes the agents of society being more inhumane than the criminals themselves.


Around here, one can't keep track of the epithets without a scorecard.

That's ok. I really just wanted to call him a cunt again.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

You, OTOH are much more eager to assert certainty than I. Who's being careless now?

Translation, please.

Or not. I'm sure something will always be lost when going to English from Clueless-and/or-evil-dumb-(yes, thank you, Kalhoun)-cunt-ese.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

That's ok. I really just wanted to call him a cunt again.

Now now, cunts actually have their uses. Perhaps we should call him a Kevin Federline, or Pauly Shore.

[The Great Sun Jester]

You know, it was just the night before last as I was heading to my car after a fine day at work. Really it had been a good day. Just as I reached the car I was barely able to resist a sudden urge to just drop to the ground and cry my eyes out as if God Himself had come to me personally and told me that I wouldn't be joining Him in heaven. A massive wave of depression you might call it. Lasted about 5 or 6 hours and eventually faded into a mild general malaise (and yeah--I'm drugged so it used to be worse). It was then that I had a mental illness epiphany, one that might be of interest to our Ludovic.

I feel safe in saying that almost everyone has used an excess of a drug at least once in their lives. Most commonly abused would be alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. Now you know that these drugs can affect the way you think, the way your senses react to their environment, and how you intepret your world. Someone who's really drunk might become consumed by one emotion--anger, sadness, happiness--and still be able to think to himself, "woah...I'm a bit out of control here" and not be able to overpower that emotion and so the extreme behavior associated with the emotion--fighting, bawling, lovin&laughin'--continues. In my experience with a sometimes debilitating emotional disorder, it's a very similar sensation. Only the "drug" comes from within and is applied without warning and without control. The result is, from my perspective, an unsettling and violent change in mood and perception that comes out of nowhere. What others see as moody or "wacky" is really a nightmare of uncertain reality, unpredictable moods, and often hallucinations.

My point is, I live my life in MY world, and my world changes in hundreds of tiny ways every day depending on what my brains are up to. And quite frankly, in the midst of a psychotic episode, I will do what I KNOW to be right...but "normal" folks will view those actions as less than appropriate. Can you punish, even torture, someone who thought that the actions they took were appropriate when they took them? How about if those actions included a solid paranoia-based belief that brain candy drugs like Prozac, lithium, M&Ms, etc...are really mind-control drugs? Ever taken them? It's CREEPY when you notice their effects. That creepiness alone is pretty convincing when you're entertaining the thought that maybe they're mind-control drugs. What SANE person would willingly take mind-control drugs that would allow them to be manipulated by some potentially nefarious entity?

This is a tough problem for most people, not just Ludovic. Because it means that they must make the decision between relaxing their grip on their own reality long enough to understand where the "criminal" is coming from, or admitting to themselves that they really care nothing for anyone's thoughts but their own. Really. because the person that cries out for horrible retribution to avenge a third party is doing so ONLY because it makes HIM feel better about the whole event.

So in this particular case, the only difference between the punished and the punisher is which side of the bars each one is on.

[Ludovic]

However, the C-word is more hurting, because not only does the user call you what they consider a low-down epithet, they also assert their belief in a system where that organ is shameful. So even if they don't consider you equivalent to one, that's still one more person you're up against if you want to fight against that sort of polarizing, negative thought.

[Excalibre]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

Now now, cunts actually have their uses.

What, like to keep a pen in or something?