What is the value of Fuck you Money?

[Scylla]

I was thinking today about the concept of "Fuck You Money." This is the value of dollars that you need as a minimum to be able to say "Fuck you" to anybody, or any situation and not sweat it.

It means you can live where you want, and do what you want without counting pennies.

Necessarily, the value of "fuck you money" will depend upon your apirations. A single man whose biggest desire is to be a beach bum, surfing, drinking beer, and eating chicken wings down in some secluded epat locale like Costa Rica will have a lower value of FYM than someone who wants to be a first class world traveller.

When I was young I simply desired a deep ocean yacht to sail around the world or whatever (though I don't know how to sail) I did a back of the envelope calculation and decided arbitrarily I'd need 250k for the boat and another 250k for sundry expenses for the rest of my life.

This was naive.

So, clearly we need a median value for reasonable FYM. Single? Married? Want kids? Have kids want a divorce and an 18 year old Ukrainian model? Our Median value must encompass all of these things.

I've decided that a minimum value for FYM that encompasses all of these possibilities and anything else within reason is a sum of money which reasonably invested can provide 250k cash in hand per year after taxes with an annual adjustment for inflation.

We will need a secure investment. Somewhat arbitrarily I have chosen the American Balanced Fund:

http://www.americanfunds.com/funds/d...dClassNumber=0

I see that it has been around since 1929 or so, has multiple managers for continuity, and averaged about 11% over its lifetime with a diversified portfolio.

Since I need certainty for FYM not probability I'm going to reduce that return to 8% for my expected performance. I am going to decide that taxes will reduce that return to 5%. I am going to decide that inflation will reduce that return to 2%, which is what I will be able to withdraw per annum in perpetuity.

But nobody lives forever! Fuck you. Maybe I will. If it runs out, than it's not "Fuck You" money. It's "Fuck me" money.

Of course, I won't actually put all the money in one fund. I will use highly sophisticated arbitrage techiques, modern portfolio, and other economic tools to build an efficient portfolio on the capital market line and generally display due diligence and prudence. It's just an example of the kind of return I can hopefully get.


This puts the value of "Fuck You Money" at precisely $5,000,000 in today's dollars.

That's how much you need to cover all your bases and relax, because you're gonna be just fine and everybody else can just fuck off.


Anybody disagree?

[Lissa]

If all goes well with our investments and current employment, Hubby and I will have our FYM at age 55. Our standard is relatively comfortable: we want to be able to travel whenever and wherever we please, have a paid-off house and be able to keep me in books. (Which is no small sum in of itself!)

Hubby's very eager for that day. If you asked him right now, he could tell you how many years, months and weeks until retirement. Me? I'll probably keep doing what I'm doing, job wise, because I enjoy it, but I'll be taking a lot of time off.

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by Lissa

If all goes well with our investments and current employment, Hubby and I will have our FYM at age 55. Our standard is relatively comfortable: we want to be able to travel whenever and wherever we please, have a paid-off house and be able to keep me in books. (Which is no small sum in of itself!)

What sum do you calculate you will need?

[Larry Borgia]

One of the computer geniuses in Neal Stephenson's novel Cryptonomicon discovers that fuck-you money is "not a fixed constant, but rather a cell in a spreadsheet linked to any number of continually fluctuating economic indicators." Make of that what you will.

A bit of coincidence here since I just read that passage today.

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by Scylla

What sum do you calculate you will need?

It's in the general vicinity of what you mentioned.

[Rysto]

I can't help but point out that in James Clavell's Noble House, it's said many times that "drop dead" money always costs more than it's worth.

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by Lissa

It's in the general vicinity of what you mentioned.

Great minds think alike.

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by Larry Borgia

One of the computer geniuses in Neal Stephenson's novel Cryptonomicon discovers that fuck-you money is "not a fixed constant, but rather a cell in a spreadsheet linked to any number of continually fluctuating economic indicators." Make of that what you will.

It kind of inspired this thread. I read that too, and it got me thinking about what the value would be and what would go into it.

[Bobotheoptimist]

Wow! Scylla has independently come up with the same figure that I did via a completely arbitrary unscientific process that involved pulling numbers out of my rear.
Married with two kids - $5 million (after taxes).

[XT]

Myself, I'm looking at a figure of between $4-5 million in diversified investments to retire. I'm HOPING I can sell my business in about 10 years for about that much again, but I have 401K, stocks and mutual funds that ought to get me there as well if the business thing falls through or doesn't make what I hope.

I am basing that on an estimated anual return of between 6-8% (this is probably conservative as most of my investments are currently doing better than that...averaged over the last decade, which wasn't the best). The sale of the business will give me enough liquid capital (in theory) to be able to purchase the various things my wife and I would like for our retirement (you know, well stocked bunker up in the mountains for when the world goes tits up, a few tanks, plenty of guns and ammo, self sufficient power supply, minions to do my bidding...stuff like that ), with a bit left over to plow back into our current portfolio of investments.

Our investments SHOULD be able to provide us with a nice anual 'salary' of between $350-500k depending on how they do. I probably won't take all that but plow 1/3 back into the portfolio...it will be our buffer for the possibility of inflation. If my wife and I can't live on, say, $250k/year then we are doing something wrong.

And at that point it will be time to do some travel (for fun instead of what I currently do), see the world and have some fun.

-XT

[Staggerlee]

Isn't this talk of 'Fuck You' money just a little undignified? I see the appeal of being thoroughly financially independent, but a part of me wants anyone whose ambition is to be able to tell everybody else to Fuck You, to retire/die lonely.

I forecast a two word riposte to my comments...

[Nancarrow]

I did this exercise a coupla months ago. Being 27 and thinking about attempting to buy a house, and wondering where my career's going and so forth, I do this every few months.

FWIW I came up with a figure of £1 million (~ $1.7m) , where I'd be living off the returns from any half-way decent share index-tracking fund. (Yeah I've done a little stock market analysis, and maybe I could beat the market a little if I really worked it out carefully, but the tracker would be my first port of call.)

This figure is lower than the others people have come up with, because I am a modest-living antisocial quasi-hermit with no intention of getting married, having kids, or buying a yacht or even a car. Of course at only 27 it's entirely possible I change my mind next week. But 1 mill is nice and round.

[Khadaji]

I have not run the figures lately, but the last time I did I was looking at 3.5 mill in US.

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by Scylla

I've decided that a minimum value for FYM that encompasses all of these possibilities and anything else within reason is a sum of money which reasonably invested can provide 250k cash in hand per year after taxes with an annual adjustment for inflation.
<snip>
I'm going to reduce that return to 8% for my expected performance. I am going to decide that taxes will reduce that return to 5%. I am going to decide that inflation will reduce that return to 2%, which is what I will be able to withdraw per annum in perpetuity.
<snip>
This puts the value of "Fuck You Money" at precisely $5,000,000 in today's dollars.


Anybody disagree?

Did I read this wrong? If you withdraw 2% per year against $5mil, you get $100k. $250k is 5% per year.

That said, I would be happy with $250k/yr before taxes. I'm not the ostentatious type, that kind of money would do me just fine. My dream lottery win is the $5,000/week for life. No worries about investments or savings or any of that crap, cause the money just keeps a comin'.

[RedFury]

Dunno. Varies a lot depending on the number of people butchered in oil-producing countries.

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by Staggerlee

{A} part of me wants anyone whose ambition is to be able to tell everybody else to Fuck You, to retire/die lonely.

I'm looking forward to it, actually. Never been a "people person."

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Scylla

I've decided that a minimum value for FYM that encompasses all of these possibilities and anything else within reason is a sum of money which reasonably invested can provide 250k cash in hand per year after taxes with an annual adjustment for inflation..

I am going to decide that inflation will reduce that return to 2%, which is what I will be able to withdraw per annum in perpetuity.

This puts the value of "Fuck You Money" at precisely $5,000,000 in today's dollars.

Do you currently earn 250K after taxes? Look, what "fuck you" money is= how much you need to live on, which hopefully is a little less than what you are earning now (there are always job related expeses you won't have) after blowing a bit to pay off the Credit cards. Thus, you can tell your boss to 'fuck you" and just sit home in your jammies playing video games, sucking Mountain Dew.

2% of $5,000,000.= $100,000 not $250,000.

And, of course, withdrawing money from an investment fund is a silly way for a long term income. What you need is an Annuity. With an Annuity, you get a fixed check every month for the rest of your life. In fact, if you have a 401K plan, and you're NOT yet 59+, one of the best ways of taking money out is to roll the 401K over into an Annuity. No penalties if done right.

Generally an Annuity (at around 50yo) will pay 5% monthly. In other words, a $100,000 annuity will pay $500/month. It's usually taxable, but not FICA, just FIT. So, let's say you now earn $60,000 a year or $5000 a month (which is more or less Cheesesteak's desired "$5000 a month for life"). To replace that, you'd need a fixed income of around $4000/mo (no FICA or FUTA, less expenses). That's $800,000. So, "FUM" = $800K + whatever you currently owe on credit cards. You needn't worry about payng off the Mortgage, as I assume you can currently pay that.

Your equity in a house can be converted to a reverse mort, also, but you have to be older. However, for couples without kids, it's something to think about.

But wait! There's also the value of your tradition pensions and Social Security. Let's skip SS for now, with all the arguments that entails. But you'd need to see how much you could collect now from your pension, or how much you will be able to collect, assuming your "FUM" is really your retirement savings goal. If we are being reasonably optimistic, and assuming even minimal Soc Sec and Pension, that "Retirement savings goal" might now be as little as $400K.

My point is that "FUM" isn't having enough cash to spend a dream life sailing the Carribean in a 50' yacht, it is having enough income to quit your job and/or stop worrying about losing your job. Many of us live in fear of losing their job. With FUM, you no longer have that fear. If the boss calls you in, you no longer have a feeling of dread. Sure, maybe getting fired means that the yacht is no longer a possibilty- but maybe also you'll find a bigger better job and buy that damn boat. FUM = "freedom from worry and care".

[Triskadecamus]

Ah, fuck you.

I don't want to stop doing the thing I do for money.

Yeah, a whole lot more money would be nice, but I still want to keep doing what I am doing. I took a fifty percent pay cut when I originally got the job I have now.

Fuck you is an attitude, not a price tag. If you can't leave it all in a pile, then it's a pile of chains and bars, and you are fettered. If you need to own stuff, then stuff owns you, and you will never in your life be free of the need for stuff.

The beach bum was right, all along. Useless to mankind, but right.

Tris

[StuffLikeThatThere]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

So, let's say you now earn $60,000 a year or $5000 a month (which is more or less Cheesesteak's desired "$5000 a month for life").

Actually what Cheesesteak said was $5000 a week. (I can't speak to what he meant, but that's what he said. Cheesesteak, if you are female, I apologize in advance.) That would be $260,000 a year, which is a bit different.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by Triskadecamus

Ah, fuck you.

I don't want to stop doing the thing I do for money.

Yeah, a whole lot more money would be nice, but I still want to keep doing what I am doing. I took a fifty percent pay cut when I originally got the job I have now.

Fuck you is an attitude, not a price tag. If you can't leave it all in a pile, then it's a pile of chains and bars, and you are fettered. If you need to own stuff, then stuff owns you, and you will never in your life be free of the need for stuff.

The beach bum was right, all along. Useless to mankind, but right.

This is a story we learned in business school just to keep things in perspective (try to ignore the obvious cultural stereotyping) :

An American businessman was standing at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

"How long it took you to catch them?" The American asked.

"Only a little while." The Mexican replied.

"Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" The American then asked.

"I have enough to support my family's immediate needs." The Mexican said.

"But," The American then asked, "What do you do with the rest of your time?"

The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life, senor."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats."

"Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own can factory. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But senor, how long will this all take?"

To which the American replied, "15-20 years."

"But what then, senor?"

The American laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO (Initial Public Offering) and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions, senor? Then what?"

The American said slowly, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos..."

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by msmith537

The American said slowly, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos..."

I'll have to share this story with Hubby. He's an "onward and upward" sort of guy, always thinking of ways to make things better. We have a friend I'll call "Mike." Mike has a landscaping business. He is the sole employee and works pretty much when he feels like it. He gets his clients through word-of-mouth and makes enough to support himself in the simple lifestyle he prefers.

Every time we go to visit him, Hubby can hardly contain himself from giving suggestions on how he could increase his business. Mike just recently put in a greenhouse in which he sells his excess stock. Last time we were there, Hubby chatted about how much Mike could make if he'd hire someone to staff the greenhouse while he did landscaping, and really, if he hired some other landscapers, he could triple the number of jobs he could do . . .

Mike just listens and smiles. He doesn't want to own a big company, and he doesn't want to be rich. He just wants to putter around working when he needs money and spending the rest of his time in whatever leisure activities suit him. Mike already has his Fuck You money, even though his sofa is the same one he had back in college.

Hubby frets for him. On the drive home, he started wondering about what Mike would do for retirement, or if he got sick, or if any number of bad things happened. Hubby has insurance plans out the wazoo and can tell you exactly how much money is in our investments, what interest rate he's getting. He has three scenario plans: one for if the market is good, one for average returns, and one for what to do if the market goes south. He's got everything planned out down to minor details. (I once teased him by asking when he had us scheduled to die.)

I'm extremely fortunate to have him, because I don't have the fiscal sense that God gave a goat. My parents taught me a strong work ethic, but they were "comfortable" and I never got the life lessons in budgeting, saving and planning that most people get. Without Hubby, I'd blithely spend myself into bankruptcy and spend my elder years eating dog food.

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by StuffLikeThatThere

Actually what Cheesesteak said was $5000 a week. (I can't speak to what he meant, but that's what he said. Cheesesteak, if you are female, I apologize in advance.) That would be $260,000 a year, which is a bit different.

You got it exactly right, even the gender. While $60k is great for some parts of the country, if that was my whole income, I'd be foreclosed on within the year, and I'd have to give up luxuries like heat.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by msmith537

This is a story we learned in business school just to keep things in perspective (try to ignore the obvious cultural stereotyping) :

The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life, senor."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats."

"Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own can factory. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But senor, how long will this all take?"

To which the American replied, "15-20 years."

"But what then, senor?"

The American laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO (Initial Public Offering) and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions, senor? Then what?"

The American said slowly, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos..."

But here's the point- once the Fisherman get's too old to go out and fish, he won;t have any money at all, thus he won;t be able to "would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos"

[ITR champion]

That's how much you need to cover all your bases and relax, because you're gonna be just fine and everybody else can just fuck off.

Suppose we have an individual who wants to tell everybody to "fuck off". It follows logically that this individual dislikes people. It follows logically that this individual dislikes himself or herself. A person who dislikes themself will never be able to relax, kick back, enjoy themself. They will never be "just fine", they will never be happy, they will never be content. Consequently, this entire concept of "fuck you money" is invalid. The individual should instead figure out what their problem is, get that problem fixed, and learn to get along with their fellow members of the human race. Then they'll be capable of relaxing, finding happiness, achieving inner peace, etc... regardless of how much money they have.

But here's the point- once the Fisherman get's too old to go out and fish, he won;t have any money at all, thus he won;t be able to "would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos"

Firstly, the fisherman may never get to old to go out and fish. Secondly, should he somehow be crippled by disease or injury, he'll probably be able to rely on his children, other family members, or amigos for finanical support, and maintain a lifestyle fairly similar to what he was used to.

[Rysto]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

Suppose we have an individual who wants to tell everybody to "fuck off". It follows logically that this individual dislikes people.

You're missing the point. Just because you have the ability to say "fuck off" to anybody doesn't mean that you will actually say "fuck off" to everybody. It means that you don't have to put up with asshole bosses, or neighbours, etc. The goal is to be able to be rude to those that deserve it, because you don't need anything from them.

[5que]

Me, I'm putting my $5000 a week into Lotto tickets.

Ha, ha! Fuck Y'all, everybody!

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

Suppose we have an individual who wants to tell everybody to "fuck off". It follows logically that this individual dislikes people. It follows logically that this individual dislikes himself or herself. A person who dislikes themself will never be able to relax, kick back, enjoy themself.

I dislike people in general, but I like myself just fine. I'm pretty happy with life, actually.

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Do you currently earn 250K after taxes?

If I did, I could tell you to fuck off now, couldn't I?

Look, what "fuck you" money is= how much you need to live on, which hopefully is a little less than what you are earning now (there are always job related expeses you won't have) after blowing a bit to pay off the Credit cards. Thus, you can tell your boss to 'fuck you" and just sit home in your jammies playing video games, sucking Mountain Dew.

Well, I suppose I could go into the woods and eat berries for free right now, but that's hardly fucking anybody else.

2% of $5,000,000.= $100,000 not $250,000.

Uummmmm. Huh. Wow. Ummm. Yeah. Ummm, congratulations, you pass the test by finding my ummm, deliberate mistake.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by RedFury

Dunno. Varies a lot depending on the number of people butchered in oil-producing countries.

That's so untrue. You make a higher rate of return butchering people in truly impoverished nations than you do in oil producing ones. Since the people are sick and poverty stricken and have no medicine, your costs are much lower and you make it up in volume.

It's why the Pimco Third World Global Genocide Fund has consistently outperformed th S&P Global Oppression Index for 40 consecutive quarters.

[Only Mostly Dead]

I saw the thread title, and knew right away that Scylla was reading Cryptonomicon. I've read the book twice now, and gotten a good laugh out of the "Fuck You Money" section both times.

I get a better laugh though out of the combination of the Van Eck Phreak/Gomer Bulstrood furniture fetish punchline in Cryptonommicon and the knowledge that an uptight Puritan character in The Baroque Cycle is the selfsame Gomer.

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by Rysto

You're missing the point. Just because you have the ability to say "fuck off" to anybody doesn't mean that you will actually say "fuck off" to everybody. It means that you don't have to put up with asshole bosses, or neighbours, etc. The goal is to be able to be rude to those that deserve it, because you don't need anything from them.

Damn Straight. "Fuck You Money" means you can tell all the scumbags to fuck off and set about cleaning up your soul. It means you can devote your life to whatever you want and whatever you value.

[Scylla]

Hmmm. Clearly I need to recalculate due to last night's error. Under the same assumptions, I need what? $12,500,000?

Fuck me.

Time to rework some assumptions.

[spingears]

Two reitered friends of mine, both of whom have a modest income, were talking. One said to the other:

"What would you do if you received a payment of septine zillion dollars as the result of a lottery ticket someone bought in your name."

The second replied: "Exactly what I'm doing today, having lunch with you and hanging out for the afternoon!"

It is not what or how much you have as it is how you use it and what you do with it.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

But here's the point- once the Fisherman get's too old to go out and fish, he won;t have any money at all, thus he won;t be able to "would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos"

Yeah but those years at the end of your life suck anyway.

I think the point is that people spend their entire lives working to make enough money to be free and end up enslaved to maintaining that lifestyle of "freedom". It's called "golden handcuffs".

Originally Posted by Scylla

Originally Posted by DrDeth
Do you currently earn 250K after taxes?

If I did, I could tell you to fuck off now, couldn't I?

Only if I wasn't the one who was paying you

The show Entourage has some great examples. Vince and Ari make tons of money as an actor and an agent respectively. It's not "fuck you" money though because they have people they answer to - studio execs, ect, and people dependent on them. The more they get sucked into the lifestyle the more it becomes a necessity.

To have true "fuck you" money you can't be dependent on anyone or anything for your income otherwise the only people you can tell to fuck off are little people.

[ultrafilter]

Originally Posted by msmith537

To have true "fuck you" money you can't be dependent on anyone or anything for your income otherwise the only people you can tell to fuck off are little people.

Bingo. Dick Parsons pulls down about $12,000,000 a year as CEO of Time Warner, but there's no way in hell that he could've told Carl Icahn to fuck off.

[Triskadecamus]

You guys might as well be saying, Fuck you, please, if no one minds.

Tris

[Scylla]

Originally Posted by Triskadecamus

You guys might as well be saying, Fuck you, please, if no one minds.

Tris

It's just a whimsical term for financial independance, not a moral concept.

[Renee]

Originally Posted by ultrafilter

Bingo. Dick Parsons pulls down about $12,000,000 a year as CEO of Time Warner, but there's no way in hell that he could've told Carl Icahn to fuck off.

Well, by most people's standards, he certainly could after working there for a year. If I made 12 mil in one year, I could make that last the rest of my life, no problem.

[Wallenstein]

A private bank in the UK - Coutts & Co - have estimated that £3m is required to live a "millionaire lifestyle".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4351880.stm

I'm not sure whether this counts as "fuck you" money, but it might be a good starting point.

[Moirai]

Originally Posted by Rysto

I can't help but point out that in James Clavell's Noble House, it's said many times that "drop dead" money always costs more than it's worth.

I don't think so- I think it was more along the lines of drop dead money always costing more than you were willing to pay (not necessarily all in a monetary way...).

[smile4me2222]

If you have your own business, and a reasonably broad customer base, you can say "fuck you" (metaphorically speaking) to just about anyone.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by smile4me2222

If you have your own business, and a reasonably broad customer base, you can say "fuck you" (metaphorically speaking) to just about anyone.

NO! Having owned my own business, the whole "become self employed and be your own boss" is a complete falsehood. If you want to survive in business, you have to treat every real customer as you boss. You exchange one boss for hundreds. And the result is the same- piss your "boss" (customers) off and you get "fired" (go out of business.)

This is why you get so many failed small businesses and also so many disgruntled sellers on eBay.

Every customer is your boss- be prepared to kiss even more ass.

[smile4me2222]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

NO! Having owned my own business, the whole "become self employed and be your own boss" is a complete falsehood. If you want to survive in business, you have to treat every real customer as you boss. You exchange one boss for hundreds. And the result is the same- piss your "boss" (customers) off and you get "fired" (go out of business.)

This is why you get so many failed small businesses and also so many disgruntled sellers on eBay.

Every customer is your boss- be prepared to kiss even more ass.

The difference is that if you get fired by 5-10% of your customers, you don't lose your job. So each customer doesn't have the kind of power over you that your boss does at work. So if you have a broad customer base, you can say "fuck you" to the worst ones.

[Common Tater]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

Suppose we have an individual who wants to tell everybody to "fuck off". It follows logically that this individual dislikes people.

Probably.

Originally Posted by ITR champion

It follows logically that this individual dislikes himself or herself.

No.

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by smile4me2222

The difference is that if you get fired by 5-10% of your customers, you don't lose your job. So each customer doesn't have the kind of power over you that your boss does at work. So if you have a broad customer base, you can say "fuck you" to the worst ones.

I've seen this in practice. I once worked in a hotel, and to call my boss a bitch would be generous. She was over-the-top nasty to about 10% of the customers (which she seems to have picked at random for her verbal cruelty and pranks). She was also the kind who would respond to "I'm never staying here again!" with "Good! And, please, tell all of your little friends so they won't come either." In the few years I worked there, I know she had to righetously piss off at least a hundred people, but we never suffered for business.

[ITR champion]

Originally Posted by Common Tater

No.

Yes. Human beings are social beings. Any individual spends most of his or her mental effort thinking about other human beings: communicating with them; planning how to communicate with them; judging them; worrying about their judgements; criticizing their behavior; evaluating art, politics, business, and other topics that are merely agglomerations of human thought. No person spends much time thinking exclusively about themself, or about non-human topics like wood and rocks. For example, every minute that you spend on this message board, you're spending contemplating the material written by other members of this message board. If you're reading a book, your thoughts are about the author's message. If you're watching TV, your thoughts are about the decisions made by the writers and producers etc... But even when the books are shut, the newspaper is in the trash, the TV and computer are off and you're lying in bed without any direct input from such sources, you still devote most of your mental effort to thinking about other people.

Consequently, one's happiness tracks one's feelings about others. Hate everyone else and you'll spend 90% of your time thinking about stuff you hate. Love everyone else and you'll spend 90% of your time thinking about stuff you love. That's the theory, and in my (amittedly short) life I've never seen it violated in practice.

You're missing the point. Just because you have the ability to say "fuck off" to anybody doesn't mean that you will actually say "fuck off" to everybody. It means that you don't have to put up with asshole bosses, or neighbours, etc. The goal is to be able to be rude to those that deserve it, because you don't need anything from them.

In any encounter between two people, happiness is maximized if the two people are friendly, communicative, and pleasant, the encounter will end with both happier than at the beginning. If they're rude, then it ends with both unhappier. Consequently, it's always best to work for basic politeness in all cases, rather than saying "the goal is to be rude". (Even if that's not the goal in one hundred percent of the cases.)

The fundamental fact is that nasty encounters stick in our mind much more than nice encounters. If you and your neighbor exchange a few pleasant words on the way out the door, you'll forget about it before you reach the end of the driveway. If, on the other hand, the two of you have a fight, you'll spend the whole day brooding on it and make yourself miserable as a result. Consequently, better not to have the fight in the first place.

Originally Posted by Scylla

Anybody disagree?

Yup. If I may invoke a metaphor, it's like you started a thread to calculate how many shovels one would need to dig down to the top of the Sears Tower, and I'm politely pointing out that you're facing in the wrong direction.

[smile4me2222]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

Suppose we have an individual who wants to tell everybody to "fuck off". [/b]

I doubt that there are many people like this in the world. However, wanting to tell everyone to "fuck off" is different from wanting to have the option of saying "fuck off."

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

Consequently, one's happiness tracks one's feelings about others. Hate everyone else and you'll spend 90% of your time thinking about stuff you hate. Love everyone else and you'll spend 90% of your time thinking about stuff you love. That's the theory, and in my (amittedly short) life I've never seen it violated in practice.

What if you spend 90% of your time singing "Kumbaya" around campfires?


Anyhoo, if "fuck you money" is too raw a term, "financial independence" may serve. They pretty much mean the same thing.

[HMS Irruncible]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

Suppose we have an individual who wants to tell everybody to "fuck off".

But that's not what we're supposing. It's more abstract than telling someone to "fuck off". We're talking about the ability to say "fuck off" whatever entity requires us to do things we don't like in order to put food on our table. Mastering your own fate does not necessarily require telling everyone to fuck off; only those people who seek to use your needs to control you.

[HMS Irruncible]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Every customer is your boss- be prepared to kiss even more ass.

That's not necessarily true. If you're sole proprietor, you have the ability to decide when a customer's request is unreasonable, and you can refuse it without being forced to quit the business.

On the other hand, if you work for somebody else, you have no power to refuse if a customer asks for something stupid. And if the person making that decision isn't the one who has to do the work, all the more likely you'll end up doing it.

Owning your own business isn't a silver bullet for life's problems or financial independence. It's just a different approach to making a livelihood that holds an appeal for some people.