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  #1  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:02 AM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Why is the movie "The Wizard of Oz" stereotypically associated with gay male culture?

(I realize that this might end up in IMHO. We'll cross that rainbow when we come to it.)

"The Wizard of Oz" is the single movie most associated with the gay male culture in this country. Movies (viz. My Fellow Americans) make jokes based on that fact. Being a straight guy myself, this has always made me wonder. There is a stereotype that gay males like Judy Garland*, but that doesn't make much sense to me, either. What is the history behind these associations?

*(Uh, not in That Way, obviously.)
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:34 AM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Apparently there's plenty of metaphors in the movie and the musical and the sequel to the book. In the sequel, the main character "Tip" IIRC transforms back and forth from being male to female and back again. The musical speaks for itself... just watch it. Then there's the rainbow which is associated with the coalition or whatever. Of course Judy goes without saying and then the three amigos when they get to Oz make claim to be FOD "Friends of Dorothy". Another phrase among the gay community from what I understand. I am not gay myself but there seems to be some things a little queer about the movie, aside from the cast, the set, the characters and I forget, wasn't the director gay as well?

and let's not forget about the Lion.


I'm not sure where the flying monkeys come into play. :O
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:39 AM
Wallenstein Wallenstein is offline
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Quote:
Of course Judy goes without saying...
Can you expand?

Is it Judy Garland in general, or specifically her role as Dorothy that's associated with gay culture?

(In fact, a "friend of Dorothy" is used in the UK as another term for gay)
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:42 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
then the three amigos when they get to Oz make claim to be FOD "Friends of Dorothy". Another phrase among the gay community from what I understand.
AFAIK, the usage of the phrase derives specifically from the association with the movie, so mentioning it like this merely documents it, but does little to explain why the association arose.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:48 AM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Judy's association with the gay community goes back to the fifties and her father to the 40's IIRC. They stood up for the gay community and were respected by the gay community for doing so.
As friends of Dorothy, three misfits, social outcasts that just want to be loved, respected and heard. They found that by sticking with Dorothy through the bleakest of times. They found what they were looking for was already in themselves and Dorothy's love helped them to get there. Three fellows who weren't exactly what you'd call manly but heroes nonetheless.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:03 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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Well, Judy's father's "association with the gay community" goes back quite a bit farther than that... (he was gay)

Consider "Over the Rainbow." An isolated adolescent from the middle of nowhere who doesn't fit in where she is dreams of a place where everything is bright and colorful and fabulous. It's not just a metaphor for the idea of gay migration to large urban centers, it's practically a road map.
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:20 AM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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I just breezed through the book. You realize this movie was based on a series of short stories. The original fans of the movie were probably familiar with the children's books before the movie was ever made. In the book there are several reference to the queer people and queer this and that. The lion really is a daisy in the book and talks about feeling gay. The tin man cries at the drop of a hat and Dorothy is at first kissed by the good witch of the north. Then later practically falls in love with a princess she meets and later is kissed by the good witch of the south. There are lots of other examples in the book that lead me to believe the gay community then was probably familiar with the Wizard of Oz even before the film. The film just really clinched it, especially with the Over the Rainbow themesong, and Judy as the lead.
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  #8  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:38 AM
Johnny L.A. Johnny L.A. is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
In the book there are several reference to the queer people and queer this and that. The lion really is a daisy in the book and talks about feeling gay.
So why not The Flinstones as a gay icon? After all, they had a Gay Old Time!

Seriously, 'queer' and 'gay' had different meanings when the book was written.
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:48 AM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.
So why not The Flinstones as a gay icon? After all, they had a Gay Old Time!

Seriously, 'queer' and 'gay' had different meanings when the book was written.
I realize that gay then didn't mean homosexual. But the passage was about the cowardly lion skipping through the flowers talking about how happy and gay he was feeling. Not too macho, especially for a lion.

I could be wrong but IIRC queer usually meant odd or strange but was still used when referring to homosexuals.

As far as the Flintstones go... it did start out with Fred sucking on a bone.
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:01 AM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
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In addition to the movie's metaphors and the Gumm/Minnelli connection, discussed above by Otto and jimbeam, there's one key connection that nailed the association in place permanently, over and above being an association.

Judy Garland's strained life and the pain she expressed in her songs continued to make her a gay icon, until her death, from an accidental overdose of barbiturates, on June 22, 1969. Her funeral was held on June 27, and many NYC gay men attended as grievers. That evening, angry with a sense of loss, many of them gathered at the Stonewall Inn, targeted for a raid by the NYC Vice Squad.

The rest, as they are wont to say, is history.

Last edited by xash; 08-08-2006 at 01:05 AM.. Reason: fixed coding.
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  #11  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:07 AM
FriarTed FriarTed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
But the passage was about the cowardly lion skipping through the flowers talking about how happy and gay he was feeling. Not too macho, especially for a lion.
*air boxing at you*

Put 'em up! Put 'em uh-up!

Last edited by Rico; 08-07-2006 at 02:45 PM.. Reason: fixed coding
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  #12  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:22 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polycarp
Judy Garland's strained life and the pain she expressed in her songs continued to make her a gay icon, until her death, from an accidental overdose of barbiturates, on June 22, 1969. Her funeral was held on June 27, and many NYC gay men attended as grievers. That evening, angry with a sense of loss, many of them gathered at the Stonewall Inn, targeted for a raid by the NYC Vice Squad.
The Judy/Stonewall story is an interesting myth but primary sources (e.g. many of the people who were verifiably there) say that it ain't so.
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:52 AM
Terminus Est Terminus Est is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
I just breezed through the book. You realize this movie was based on a series of short stories.
The movie was based on the children's novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz by L. Frank Baum. While episodic in nature, I believe it was written and published as a single novel rather than a serial.
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  #14  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:07 AM
Beware of Doug Beware of Doug is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Consider "Over the Rainbow." An isolated adolescent from the middle of nowhere who doesn't fit in where she is dreams of a place where everything is bright and colorful and fabulous.
Now, IANAFOD, but as a youngster, I understood the song as just about a peaceful land of milk and honey. As I look back, it's a metaphor for why people went to the movies in 1939: escapism.

This song, this movie, is the pure sappy concentrated form of that escapism. A 1939 Kansas kid's dream of California. Or a 1939 American's dream of a world where there wouldn't be any more poverty or another war.

Quote:
It's not just a metaphor for the idea of gay migration to large urban centers, it's practically a road map.
Surely not a road map? Wouldn't it have magical buildings and streets and men, instead of just clouds and sky and birds?

What it's really got are universals. Unbearably gooey and sentimental universals with the drama meter pegged to eleven. But universals nonetheless.
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  #15  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:19 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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I'm not suggesting that OTR has no resonance with straight people. But that's not the topic of the thread.
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  #16  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:33 AM
baronsabato baronsabato is offline
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I'm really appreciative for this thread. As a gay man who has never felt any affinity for Judy Garland and hasn't even seen all of "Wizard of Oz" (and I absolutely HATE "Over the Rainbow"), I never understood the connection (stereotype?). Now it makes a little more sense- I knew that Judy Garland was supportive of her gay fans, but I didn't realize she actively spoke out for gay rights, or that her father was gay.

I love the Straight Dope. :-)
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  #17  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Eve Eve is offline
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There's also the theme that when your family rejects you, you can find another "family" through the friends who love you for what you are.
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  #18  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:38 AM
panache45 panache45 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Consider "Over the Rainbow." An isolated adolescent from the middle of nowhere who doesn't fit in where she is dreams of a place where everything is bright and colorful and fabulous. It's not just a metaphor for the idea of gay migration to large urban centers, it's practically a road map.
This is a totally accurate explanation; the rest of you are being way too literal. I don't remember, as a queer kid, watching the movie and cataloging all the gay references, all of which would have been over my head at the time. But I do remember the utterly magical sense of wonder and of longing, and the empathy I felt toward the four characters. Especially their status of "strangers in a strange land."

It has absolutely nothing to do with the multitude of gay-related footnotes associated with the movie. As a kid, I knew nothing whatsoever about gay culture, but I was drawn to that movie on a level that I wouldn't understand till decades later.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:40 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polycarp
Judy Garland's strained life and the pain she expressed in her songs continued to make her a gay icon, until her death, from an accidental overdose of barbiturates, on June 22, 1969. Her funeral was held on June 27, and many NYC gay men attended as grievers.
I've never really understood this "Gay men loved Judy Garland because she had a tough life" argument. Many, many Hollywood stars have struggled with personal problems every bit as bad as Garland's but did not become gay icons, and in any event Garland's problems were largely of her own creation. There must be something else that attaches Garland to gay. The evidence presented thus far suggests she became a gay icon due to her being in The Wizard of Oz, which definitely has favourable themes to a gay audience - whether deliberately so or not.
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  #20  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:41 AM
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
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The ruby slippers from the movie were stolen from a Grand Rapids, Mich., museum last year.

David Letterman said the thief was described as "armed and fabulous."

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  #21  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:42 AM
Beware of Doug Beware of Doug is offline
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Originally Posted by panache45
This is a totally accurate explanation; the rest of you are being way too literal.
<sigh> Yeah, you're right.

I realize now why the Village People had a construction worker, and not a deconstruction worker.
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  #22  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:58 AM
panache45 panache45 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay
I've never really understood this "Gay men loved Judy Garland because she had a tough life" argument. Many, many Hollywood stars have struggled with personal problems every bit as bad as Garland's but did not become gay icons, and in any event Garland's problems were largely of her own creation. There must be something else that attaches Garland to gay. The evidence presented thus far suggests she became a gay icon due to her being in The Wizard of Oz, which definitely has favourable themes to a gay audience - whether deliberately so or not.
The reason is that she was Judy, and the others weren't.
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  #23  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay
I've never really understood this "Gay men loved Judy Garland because she had a tough life" argument. Many, many Hollywood stars have struggled with personal problems every bit as bad as Garland's but did not become gay icons, and in any event Garland's problems were largely of her own creation. There must be something else that attaches Garland to gay.
It's (among other things) her talent, her style, her sense of humor (especially in later years), her public tragedies, the sense that she was knocked down repeatedly by life and persevered, the fact that we all love a comeback story and she had more comebacks than pretty much anyone, and of course we all love drama. Trying to explain gays and Garland isn't something easily done on a message board. Volumes have been written. I'm an unabashed Judy queen and for me it's simply that I believe she's the single most talented performer that's ever lived.
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  #24  
Old 08-07-2006, 11:18 AM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
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Originally Posted by Eve
There's also the theme that when your family rejects you, you can find another "family" through the friends who love you for what you are.
There is? I'm not saying I disagree, I just don't remember who was rejected by their family.
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  #25  
Old 08-07-2006, 11:40 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is online now
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jimbeam writes:

> I just breezed through the book. You realize this movie was based on a series
> of short stories. The original fans of the movie were probably familiar with the
> children's books before the movie was ever made. In the book there are
> several reference to the queer people and queer this and that. The lion really
> is a daisy in the book and talks about feeling gay. The tin man cries at the drop
> of a hat and Dorothy is at first kissed by the good witch of the north. Then
> later practically falls in love with a princess she meets and later is kissed by the
> good witch of the south. There are lots of other examples in the book that lead
> me to believe the gay community then was probably familiar with the Wizard of
> Oz even before the film. The film just really clinched it, especially with the Over
> the Rainbow themesong, and Judy as the lead.

Almost every bit of this post is wrong. The movie is based on the first book in a series by L. Frank Baum. Baum wrote 14 books in the series. After he died, several other people wrote more books in the series for a total of 40 canonical books of the series. There are also some unauthorized sequels to the books. There are no references to homosexuality in the books. Baum often had a lot of weird things happen to his characters, including having characters who were male most of the book but eventually were discovered to be females under a curse which was broken at the end, but nobody at the time they were published thought of the books as being about homosexuality. Lots of weird things happened to characters in Baum's books, most of which can't be made to be symbolic of homosexuality even by the most crazed Freudian. The lion is not a daisy and does not talk about being gay. The tin man does not act homosexual in the book except under some bizarre interpretation that a crazed Freudian could put on his actions. I'm pretty sure that there was no homosexual cult around the Oz books before the film came out. They were thought of as a fairly standard children's book series with lots of strange things in them. Incidentally the books are excellent, and I would recommend them to anyone. There's much in the first book that's not included in the film. Indeed, some of the fans of the books don't like the movie much.
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  #26  
Old 08-07-2006, 12:04 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot
There is? I'm not saying I disagree, I just don't remember who was rejected by their family.
Dorothy felt rejection and alienation which led into her singing OTR. She also felt some rejection because Aunt Em and Uncle Henry allowed Miss Gulch to take Toto. Each of the three Oz companions believes himself to be deficient in some fundamental way and most pronounced the Lion is completely unable to fulfil his rightful role in the forest "family."

It's not IMHO an overarching theme of the movie (I've only read wo of the books and didn't care much one way or the other about them) but there is a thread of it there.
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  #27  
Old 08-07-2006, 07:42 PM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner



Almost every bit of this post is wrong. The movie is based on the first book in a series by L. Frank Baum. Baum wrote 14 books in the series. After he died, several other people wrote more books in the series for a total of 40 canonical books of the series. There are also some unauthorized sequels to the books. There are no references to homosexuality in the books. Baum often had a lot of weird things happen to his characters, including having characters who were male most of the book but eventually were discovered to be females under a curse which was broken at the end, but nobody at the time they were published thought of the books as being about homosexuality. Lots of weird things happened to characters in Baum's books, most of which can't be made to be symbolic of homosexuality even by the most crazed Freudian. The lion is not a daisy and does not talk about being gay. The tin man does not act homosexual in the book except under some bizarre interpretation that a crazed Freudian could put on his actions. I'm pretty sure that there was no homosexual cult around the Oz books before the film came out. They were thought of as a fairly standard children's book series with lots of strange things in them. Incidentally the books are excellent, and I would recommend them to anyone. There's much in the first book that's not included in the film. Indeed, some of the fans of the books don't like the movie much.
Actually the only thing wrong about my post was referring to it as "short stories". Episodic would be more accurate. Calling it a novel seems to be an exaggeration also. Children's novel? Okay I'll go with that even though an adult could read it in less than an hour.
The movie misses a lot that is in the book. Whether the homosexual references were intentional or not. I'd say probably not. Can they be interpreted that way? Well, obviously they can or we would not be having this discussion. Have they been interpreted that way in the past? Absolutely. So don't say my post is wrong.
If you question the scenes I described read the book. I'll even try to find you a cite if I can.
Is the tin man gay? I dunno, he had a fiance but broke up with her. He is highly emotional despite his lack of a heart. He cries at practically every little thing and is somewhat embarrased by this. Doesn't mean he's homosexual but it may be a trait some folks can appreciate.
The FACT is that Dorothy's companions have characteristics that considered by society then and now as less than manly.
Your absolute statement "but nobody at the time they were published thought of the books as being about homosexuality"
You know this.
Surely you don't think there was no gay culture then.

I too agree the books are excellent and recommended literature.
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  #28  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:09 PM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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I forgot to mention that when our heros arrived to the Emerald City the wizard saw each of them separately NOT all together. He was dressed as a woman at one meeting. Reference to tranvestite? Maybe. Not the only reference either.
BTW You might want ot check out the 1925 version of the movie w/ Oliver Hardy. Some kinky stuff in that movie. Here's a link although I can't say how good it is. There's plenty of other cites.
http://www.stomptokyo.com/badmoviere.../wizard25.html

I read somewhere? Can't find the cite right now but I'll try to find it.
L. Frank Baum may have been a cross dresser. I won't swear to it's authenticity but I read a newspaper article somewhere to that effect.

Yeah I know, CITE! okay... give me some time.
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  #29  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:25 PM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Oz's director Victor Fleming rec'd an Oscar for Gone With The Wind and also directed Red Dust where Clark Gable starred as well. The movie Red Dust is quite sexual in nature and homosexuality is addressed in the movie. During the filming of Oz, Clark Gable ran the director (Cuko?) off the set due to some issues regarding his and Gable's homo/bi-sexual past.
Gable got his way and friend Victor left the Oz set three weeks before it was completed to direct GWTW.
Victor Fleming directed several movies of a sexual nature.

coincidental huh?
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:46 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
coincidental huh?
Um...yes?

And it's "Cukor," as in George Cukor. And while the stories about his supposedly tricking with Gable while Gable was being gay for pay have been around for decades, I've never seen a reputable source for it.
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  #31  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:59 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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I always thought it had something to do with Glinda the Good Witch of the North telling the munchkins to "Come out, come out, wherever you are . . ."
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:00 PM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Um...yes?

And it's "Cukor," as in George Cukor. And while the stories about his supposedly tricking with Gable while Gable was being gay for pay have been around for decades, I've never seen a reputable source for it.
Cukor, sorry I dropped thr r.
So you are dismissing what part of my post? I didn't say anything about gay for pay, only that they had a past which seemed to be a point of controversy.

So, there were eight or nine movies made about Oz prior to the 1939 Fleming version, including a couple that L. Frank Baum directed and/or produced himself. They were also sexually explicit for the time.

My point is... I see ample evidence of the possibility that Oz had a fan base prior to the '39 version and sexuality was definitely part of its appeal.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:20 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Originally Posted by jimbeam
So you are dismissing what part of my post?
The part where you claim Cukor was fired from GWTW at Gable's insistence because of their "homo/bi-sexual past." Just because Kenneth Anger said it doesn't make it so. Hell, especially if Kenneth Anger said it, it doesn't make it so.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:26 PM
jimbeam jimbeam is offline
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Originally Posted by Otto
Um...yes?

And it's "Cukor," as in George Cukor. And while the stories about his supposedly tricking with Gable while Gable was being gay for pay have been around for decades, I've never seen a reputable source for it.
You questioned the coincidental. Sorry, I meant to address that. Cukor was the original director on "OZ" as well. He left to do GWTW when Fleming took over. It kinda goes round and round. Oz gay actors and directors combined with an author who in previous versions as creenwriter, director and producer shows his own slant towards sexuality in a "fairytale".

Deny it if you will but after researching Oz. I'd have to say there more to this than mere interpretation and/or coincidence. Oz had been around Hollywood for a long time before Judy Garland landed the role.

anyway, I gotta run see y'all later
~JB
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:37 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Everybody knows there's a lot of gay sex in Oz.
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  #36  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:37 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-logic
Can you expand?

Is it Judy Garland in general, or specifically her role as Dorothy that's associated with gay culture?

(In fact, a "friend of Dorothy" is used in the UK as another term for gay)
Doesn't that refer to Dorothy Parker, though?
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  #37  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:59 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace
Doesn't that refer to Dorothy Parker, though?
I've almost never heard it as a reference to Dorothy Parker.
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  #38  
Old 08-07-2006, 11:48 PM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by Otto
I've almost never heard it as a reference to Dorothy Parker.
Almost never, or never? I guess it depends on how far back the references go. Assuming that we're talking about the movie and not the book, is the first reference before or after the movie came out? Parker, IIRC, made a name for herself in the 20s NYC social scene.
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  #39  
Old 08-08-2006, 12:09 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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The only places I recall seeing it are on Wikipedia, and your post. As opposed to the Oz explanation, which I've read in dozens of books, has been referenced in multiple documentary and fiction films, etc.

Which of course doesn't prove anything, but besides that I've never heard of Parker's having any particularly strong association or resonance with the gay community (other than claiming that her second husband was gay).

So I tend to go with the Garland explanation.
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  #40  
Old 08-08-2006, 01:47 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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OK. I was more asking a question than trying to make a statement.
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  #41  
Old 08-08-2006, 08:01 AM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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jimbeam --

Do you also find sexual images in Winnie the Pooh, The Wind in the Willows, The Jungle Books, or any other classic children's works that you haven't really read closely but know from movies?

I only ask because you seem to be projecting a lot into The Wizard of Oz. It says much more about how your mind is working than about the objective content of the story.
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  #42  
Old 08-08-2006, 09:52 AM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner
characters who were male most of the book but eventually were discovered to be females under a curse which was broken at the end
Thank you, Wendell. Clearly what you've described, although it didn't have a name at the time Baum was writing, corresponds to what we now call transsexual, not gay.
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  #43  
Old 08-08-2006, 10:53 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is online now
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Johanna writes:

> Thank you, Wendell. Clearly what you've described, although it didn't have a
> name at the time Baum was writing, corresponds to what we now call
> transsexual, not gay.

I should note that the various interesting things that happen to characters in the Oz books are never described in a medical or a psychological manner. It's always a matter of magic. In the case I mentioned, it's a young princess who a witch was mad at, so the witch decided to put the princess under a curse which turned her into a boy of about the same age. The boy is a major character in one of the books, and at the end of that book the curse is broken allowing him/her to become the princess once again. (I think I've described this right, but I'd have to get out my Oz books to be sure.) In any case, this wasn't a transsexual character in the modern medical sense.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:13 AM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
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The "magic transsexual" item that comes to mind is Tip > Ozma; I believe Baum repeated the gimmick in a second story, with a variation, though I have no cite on that.

As for the Dorothy Parker item, the only place I've ever seen it is in the Wikipedia note and people quoting it. Perhaps our Wikipedia-admin. Dopers might want to take a look at that and either get a cite for it from the writer, or convert it to an unsubstantiated allegation?
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  #45  
Old 08-08-2006, 11:28 AM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner
In any case, this wasn't a transsexual character in the modern medical sense.
The medical procedures hadn't yet been invented. So full transition belonged to the realms of mythology and fantasy.
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  #46  
Old 08-08-2006, 11:32 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFidelius
Do you also find sexual images in Winnie the Pooh, The Wind in the Willows, The Jungle Books, or any other classic children's works
Lessee - Christopher Robin and Mowgli are both young boys who spend a lot of time with bears - they're practically NAMBLA infomercials!

And the less said about those "confirmed bachelors" Rat and Mole and their cosy riverside condo, the better - except to recall the time Rat nearly ran off with a sailor!

It's there if you know where to look
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  #47  
Old 08-08-2006, 11:44 AM
Walloon Walloon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
I forget, wasn't the director gay as well?
Far from it! The director was Victor Fleming. However, one of the movie's three screenwriters, Edgar Allan Woolf, was gay.
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  #48  
Old 08-08-2006, 11:58 AM
Walloon Walloon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
During the filming of Oz, Clark Gable ran the director (Cuko?) off the set due to some issues regarding his and Gable's homo/bi-sexual past.
Clark Gable had nothing to do with George Cukor being replaced as director of Gone With the Wind. No actor, not even Gable, had that power in the 1930s, when all actors were contract players. They simply had no such leverage, and Gable certainly didn't at Selznick International Pictures, where he was on loan from M-G-M.

From a private letter from journalist Susan Myrick to Margaret Mitchell in February 1939, within days of Cukor's announced departure from GWTW:
Quote:
George [Cukor] finally told me all about it. He hated [leaving the production] very much he said but he could not do otherwise. In effect he said he is an honest craftsman and he cannot do a job unless he knows it is a good job and he feels the present job is not right. For days, he told me he has looked at the rushes and felt he was failing... the thing did not click as it should. Gradually he became convinced that the script was the trouble... David [Selznick], himself, thinks HE is writing the script... And George has continually taken script from day to day, compared the [Oliver] Garrett-Selznick version with the [Sidney] Howard, groaned and tried to change some parts back to the Howard script. But he seldom could do much with the scene... So George just told David he would not work any longer if the script was not better and he wanted the Howard script back. David told George he was a director not an author and he (David) was the producer and the judge of what is a good script... George said he was a director and a damn good one and he would not let his name go out over a lousy picture... And bull-headed David said "OK get out!"
Selznick had already been unhappy with Cukor ("a very expensive luxury") for not being more receptive to directing other Selznick assignments, even though Cukor had remained on salary since early 1937; and in a confidential memo written in September 1938 (four months before principal photography began on GWTW), Selznick flirted with the idea of replacing him with Victor Fleming.
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  #49  
Old 08-08-2006, 01:06 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
The medical procedures hadn't yet been invented. So full transition belonged to the realms of mythology and fantasy.
Yes, but Tip never wanted to be a girl, or thought he was a girl, IIRC. His transformation into Ozma was as much a surprise to him as everyone else. It was a very good disguise (the Tip persona), no Gender or Sexual issues in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Dorothy felt rejection and alienation which led into her singing OTR. She also felt some rejection because Aunt Em and Uncle Henry allowed Miss Gulch to take Toto. Each of the three Oz companions believes himself to be deficient in some fundamental way and most pronounced the Lion is completely unable to fulfil his rightful role in the forest "family."

It's not IMHO an overarching theme of the movie (I've only read wo of the books and didn't care much one way or the other about them) but there is a thread of it there
Interesting. I can see that. Even more interesting (to me, if no one else) is that I've always seen Dorothy as a spoiled brat who rejected her loving family, not the other way 'round. Playing Aunt Em on stage only reinforced that. At the end, Dorothy learns her lesson and realizes how much her family loves her, and has always loved her, and that she didn't need to go anywhere at all to find family - she had it all along.
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  #50  
Old 08-08-2006, 01:38 PM
Walloon Walloon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbeam
Cukor was the original director on "OZ" as well. He left to do GWTW when Fleming took over.
Richard Thorpe (a native Kansan) was the original director of The Wizard of Oz, and directed it for two weeks. After he left, George Cukor, at producer Mervyn LeRoy's request, looked at the existing footage, and worked on it for three days, doing revamped makeup and costume tests of Judy Garland. Victor Fleming directed it for four months.
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