"Oh, fuck you!"

[Byzantine]

Got your attention? Good. Let's rock!

"You know, I'm so sick of your massive bullshit that I just throw my hands up in the air and fall back on the worst thing I can think of, the most foul, base word I can think of, to get your attention."

"Over what?"

"Over the bad typing I see and read out here! God damn it all to hell! There is a thing called spelling. Check it out, get a dictionary if you have problems. There's a thing called capitalization. Don't know when to use it? Again, check the dictionary!"

"Wow, you seem so upset, what else bothers you?"

"The fact that some people can't seem to put a break into their rambling. Give us a paragraph break here and there otherwise it's just a bunch of random thoughts."

Thank you so much for reading this. If nothing else my soul feels purged and I welcome, nay, WANT any and every slam you can think of. Let me have it, folks!

This message has been brought to you by the LEARN TO TYPE club.

------------------
The moon looks on many flowers, the flowers on but one moon.

[Czarcasm]

I know exactly what you mean.
I just love the "Ignorance is a form of expression" clique. They claim that any correction of their pre-school writing abilities is some sort of censorship from us elitists. Some even claim that such "style" of writing is a form of poetry, under the mistaken impression that poetry could mean that one could disconnect the brain from the mouth and be applauded for it.
Before any of you scream at me about First Amendment rights, I'll remind you that 1. The First Amendment concerns GOVERNMENT action against speech, and 2. I'm just expressing MY First Amendment rights by protesting illiteracy.

[kellibelli]

relax oh anal ones...some of this stuff you refer to are simple typos. I get going fast, and mis a key, or spell 'and as 'adn' its not illeteracy, its just that I have stuff to say, and limited time.

you want a fight dontcha???

You jerks probably correct peoples grammar when talking face to face too...you big grammer people....(?)
oh hell...that wasnt very forceful.

[NicePete]

Personally, I pity people who are not capable of using good grammar, especially on this board. To me, it indicates a lack of sophistication, education or interest in communicating clearly. It's hard for me to take your ideas seriously if you don't take them seriously enough to present them well.

I agree with Frank--I make as many typos as anyone. But I think that consistent poor spelling and grammer is a good clue to the kind of person you're dealing with. It's true, when someone makes a good arguement but coaches it like a third-grader, I tend to discount their opnions, at least a bit.

Oops, umm, "grammar." Is MY face red!

[bj0rn]

yeah, then im a person to pick on.
i dont use capital letters, i dont much fancy
paragraphs after every stop...hell, im not even an english speaking person. beat that you monsters!

[AuraSeer]

yeh i agree with yu

yu culd talk reely good ideas but if yu spel like loverock or B1FF peepl wil think yu r stupd

[middsy]

Yanks,

Use the Oxford English Dictionary for future spellings, you will then hopefully put S's where you normally put Z's and I will understand, oh and you're all a bunch of katchibawls.

[CatInHat]

This thread reminds me of a conversation that I had with a bookstore clerk a few years ago. I had called the bookstore to ask them if they carried a certain magazine. The clerk put me on hold to check their computer. When she came back, she told me that "We don't have no record of this magazine." !!??!?!

I guess literacy is optional for bookstore clerks at major national chains.

------------------
The Cat In The Hat

Umm, Middsy, "it is to be hoped," not "hopefully."

[mentally insert smiley face here at your discretion]

[ChrisCTP]

You jerks probably correct peoples grammar when talking face to face too

Yes, in fact, I do.

Here we go...

relax oh anal ones...some of this stuff you refer to are simple typos. I get going fast, and mis a key, or spell 'and as 'adn' its not illeteracy, its just that I have stuff to say, and limited time.
you want a fight dontcha???

You jerks probably correct peoples grammar when talking face to face too...you big grammer people....(?)
oh hell...that wasnt very forceful.

Chris' correction:
Relax, O Anal Ones, some of the things to which you're making reference are simply typographical errors. When I am rapidly typing, occasionally I miss a key, or misspell "and" as "adn". I don't believe my problem to be illiteracy, but simply a case of having much to say, and little time in which to say it.

You want a fight, don't you?

You jerks probably correct other people's grammar when conversing face-to-face, too. You big...grammar people...(?)
(Oh, hell, that wasn't very forceful, was it?)

(I just wanted to have a little fun with you, Kellibelli.)


------------------
Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[Stoid]

Add me to the list of people who skip posts without paragraphs. There is nothing more irritating to try and read than that. It is an instant tipoff to a bad writer.

However, I am a poor typist, I freely admit. I'm sorry, I try, but that's life. (I would say that 99.9% of the errors I make have to do with my fumbling fingers, not my fumbling brain.)



------------------
*************
I am #1. Everyone else is #2 or lower.

[ChiefScott]

I try to proofread every post before sending it out. What I search for are inadvertant mistakes which can be capitalized on for humor.

If particularly frustrated, I will resort to grammatical retorts.

Tough noogies.

[E1skeptic]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

For some of us is not easy to understand the meaning of a whole sentence when the words are mispelled, like "there" instead of "their".

Unfortunately not all of us have English as our first language, and it can be hard to properly grasp the ideas behind some posts, especially when there's sarcasm or a concealed meaning in them. (I should know, even Nicrz has "slashed" me for my lack of understanding. *I'm learning, Nick, I'm learning*)

I see nothing wrong with properly writing and thus, communicating, our ideas. We'd be saving a lot of energy by NOT misinterpreting someone else's posts.

Now, please, correct me if I'm wrong (which is very often, I know).

E1.

[NicePete]

Frankie:

I think grammar, capatalization, punctuation and paragraphing are marks of courtesy, intelligence and education. Theoretically, these are things that we value on this board.

When I see a post without caps or punctuation, I think one of two things:

1. How affected. The e.e. cummings, joe sensitive, encounter group no caps thing was really happenin' in about 1974. OR

2. Hey, there's a post from somebody who can't be bothered to use his shift key. Since this person can't take the time to use the rules of grammar that we all learned in sixth grade, I don't think I'll bother to take the time to read their post.

Clear, precise language presented legibly promotes credibility.

------------------
"Owls will deafen us with their incessant hooting!" W. Smithers

[NicePete]

Thank YOU E1.

If a non-native speaker of English can post grammatically correct prose, why can't everyone?

Who else has had that horrible sinking feeling when you've just hit "Submit Reply" and spot an appalling error just before your post vanishes into the void?

[CatInHat]

I don't know about anyone else, but I know that I've been spoiled by the spell checker in Word that automatically corrects "adn" and "teh" and other common typos. I can't type for shit, and thanks to Bill Gates, now I don't have to learn!

Actually, I do proofread my posts, and I think I pick up the most egregious errors.

Chris, I think that "some of the things to which you're making reference" should be "some of the things to which you refer". Just my bias in favor of short sentences.

------------------
The Cat In The Hat

[Satan]

As long as the point is made, I have no problem with typos. Everyone here is able to communicate well enough for me to follow for the most part.

I do wish this board would allow posters to edit their posts. This way we would be able to fix typos and whatnot. I believe this board is able to do that if the administrators allow that option...

Yes? No? Maybe?

------------------
Brian O'Neill
CMC International Records
rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html

ICQ 35294890
AIM Scrabble1
Yahoo Messenger Brian_ONeill

[Czarcasm]

I really don't mind typos either, but Do try to remember Rule #1 of communication:
If the other person doesn't understand you, your're not doing it right.

[AuntiePam]

I used to work for lawyers. <shudder>

One in particular allowed me (nay, encouraged me) to write first drafts for him. (And sometimes seconds and finals and birthday cards to his mom, grocery lists, whatever.)

I'll always remember one time -- I needed to respond to something written by the opposing attorney, and I needed to quote that attorney.

Well, the piece I was citing included a really petty typo, and I asked my lawyer, should I "sic" him?

Of course, you all know that [sic] is inserted to denote an error in what you're quoting, thereby drawing the reader's attention to the stupidity or carelessness of the other guy.

My lawyer's response?

"Live by the sword --- ."

I ain't gonna bitch about any of the missteps you guys take, and I hope you'll return the favor.

Like, don't point out how many times I mixed tenses in the preceding post, okay?

[EnigmaOne]

************MINI RANT ALERT!***************

Typos, as such, are pretty obvious from merely the reading of them. We all make them, and we all hate doing so...if for no other reason--as has been mentioned previously--they provide opportunity for humor at our own expense. Furthermore, we all generally make exceptions for them.

People are normally evaluated on the basis of their self-presentation, and the internet is no exception. The "limiting" factor is that a person's written constructs become the only factor determining their credibility and acceptance. Personally, I don't consider this to be a limitation at all. To the contrary, by its very nature, communication over the internet removes the externalities that often cloud issues with opportunities for illogical argument.

As a teacher, I deal daily with a wide variety of writing styles and have been amazed at my ability to derive intent from even the worst of spelling and grammar. It didn't start out that way--it developed over time.

If a student is defficient in their written communication, I point it out to them for two reasons:

1) To inform them that they have a problem with communication, and it's their responsibility to take corrective action.

2) To assist the student in remediating the problem.

I am further amazed at the number of functionally illiterate adults occupying space in today's post-secondary classrooms.

Illiteracy, not as a result of ESL issues, is easy to spot, and is indicative of laziness. Quite frankly, the ideas of a lazy person don't merit much consideration.

While I can derive meaning from the vast majority of writings found here, I do observe that some people sell themselves short in framing their ideas for presentation here. Sometimes it's just too much work to decipher a senseless point out of the mess in a particular post...In that case, like other folks here, I'm off to the next posting.

I'm getting used to the member names on the new boards, and am developing a feel for the kind of ideas that will generally follow a given poster's name.

Folks, this is the internet--the bastion of the informed and educated. It is The Territory of the Educated. If you sell yourself short, or you simply don't respect yourself enough to make a literate presentation of your ideas; don't expect others to respect you in greater measure or care enough to take you seriously. You aren't entitled to respect that you don't give to others first. S & G is one component of that respect, as has been mentioned before.

You can't force anyone to do your work for you, and ranting about the fact that people can spot your writing deficiencies (sometimes pointing them out to you) is absurdly defensive. Calling it elitist is even more ridiculous.

From what I can see, this is nothing compared to the good old days of the "S & G Police." You've got it easy, as most of the Regs really do have the "kid gloves" on with respect to S & G.

Are some people "anal" about S & G? You bet they are, but not to the degree that is being claimed here--it's more of an abberation rather than the norm.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"--Einstein


------------------

--Kalél
Common ¢ for all ages...
"Well, there was that thing with the Cheese-Wiz....but I'm feeling much better now!" -- John Astin, Night Court

[Lynn Bodoni]

{{I do wish this board would allow posters to edit their posts. This way we would be able to fix typos and whatnot. I believe this board is able to do that if the administrators allow that option...

Yes? No? Maybe?}}

As I understand it...we could allow it, but if you can modify your own post, you can modify other people's. I don't think that any REASONABLE person wants this. I'm sure that there are some people out there who would enjoy this...but I'm talking reasonable people here. There may be some way to allow posters to modify only their own messages, but I'm not the person to ask. Try asking in the "About This Message Board" forum.

If you find that you NEED to have your post removed or modified, LET ME KNOW! Send me an email or IM. I'm LynnBodoni@aol.com and lynnbodoni@earthlink.net. If I'm on Earthlink, I usually have AIM going. My AIM/IM name is LynnBodoni. I can remove or modify posts in any forum, but if your post is in another forum, let the other forum moderator know about this as well. This is a matter of courtesy as well as practicality. The other moderator might be able to get to the post before I can. Please note that I'm NOT online 24/7. Even if it's what I'd prefer.

I will remove or modify posts if you said something that you think you shouldn't have (in fact, I did that just a few days ago) or if you need a typo corrected, a word inserted, something like that. I won't do this without you asking me, as a general rule. I won't modify an old post where you assert one thing and then new evidence comes up to contradict you. Let me know if you want a post removed or modified, and I'll TRY to accommodate you. Particularly if you promise me chocolate.

Lynn/SDStaff Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[tomndebb]

Lynn, I believe the request is to have a function similar to the one on the The Other Teeming Millions Message Board that Opal has provided on fathom.org: as one posts, there is a pop-up that allows the poster to review the post in its "deliverable" form; the poster is then given the option to go back to the creation page and fix errors before they are placed on the board (at which time they are permanent).

Your answer, and that of the techies, may be the same for that sort of function, but I just wanted to point out that it is possible (possibly not in UBB) to have a last-chance review without opening all posts to re-working by other posters.

------------------
Tom~

Byz, keep in mind that I consider "fuck you" a pleasant invitation.

I don't consider posts on message boards to be the same as formal writing. Thus, I am not as careful about spelling, grammar, or style.

I reckon I orta be more keerful. Hit mite be better fer me to thank abowt whut I'm a-fixin' ta rite, soze ya'll don't figger Ize a plum fool. Reely ize jest a plain ol' run-o-the-mill dummass.

[Czarcasm]

How wrong you are, TennHippie. You are NEVER run-of-the-mill. .

[Frankie]

Grammar Police-
There is a point where the posters lack of ability to write impairs your ability to understand the post. But I think it is a bit much to consider improper usage to be a sign of ignorance. I am not a writer. I have never hoped to be a writer and probably more importantly i am not an editor. So relax and read for the thoughts not for the grammar.
If it gets to the point where you can't understand the post thats one thing. But please I know you are smart enough to realize that "adn" is "and" and that "i" is "I"
Thank you and lighten up!

[Lynn Bodoni]

Tom,

I don't know if it's possible. It might be, it might not be. But I always try to proofread my posts...and I advise others to do the same. Even if it is a pain.

A review window WOULD help, especially to check that the HTML is working. Again, this subject would be better discussed on the About This Message Board forum. I don't make any decisions about how the MB is set up, and I rarely even offer opinions on this subject.

Lynn/SDStaff Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[pldennison]

My biggest pet peeve: If you're going to write a really, really long post, put in paragraph breaks with a blank line between. When I see a 6-inch block of post with no paragraph or line breaks, I immediately skip it, regardless of who wrote it.

[VegForLife]

Frankie, I agree with your point. I have to ask, though: how often have you seen anyone correct or berate anyone for typing "adn" instead of "and"?

I think most of the people here who are vocal about grammar, syntax, spelling, etc., are only vocal when the post becomes difficult to understand (or when the poster does something stupid, like type, "I never mispell anything!").

Rich

[Frankie]

Veg-
That is the entire point of this thread. Byzantine starts off complaining about misspellings and capitalization. So yes I have heard someone complain about it!

[Doobieous]

If a non-native speaker of English can post grammatically correct prose, why can't everyone?

Well, often people who learn a second language learn more about the language than the native speakers do. However, that is no excuse for not knowing when to write "their", "there", "they're" (A far too common mistake, and something that can change the whole meaning of a sentence).

I admit, I often don't watch what I am doing. Like Auraseer said, I also don't consider this place to be a place for formal writing, so my writing is often unformal and full of some of the errors you all have mentioned (never really any spelling errors, just bad punctuation and capitalization).

When I am chatting with friends, my writing is very unformal, and would get me flamed by the grammar and spelling gods here .

[AuraSeer]

FTR, TennHippie (not I) wrote about not considering this MB formal writing.

[ellis555]

what's your beef about lack of capitalization? it's simply faster for me to not to have to hit the "shift" key all the time. and i do make an effort to capitalize proper names and such (God, especially) so as to avoid accidentally offending people.

ellis

by the way, i'm honestly curious here.

[pldennison]

Since when is "God" a proper name? It's a job title.

Anyway, it denotes a lack of respect for your reading audience. How much time can it possibly take you to hit the "Shift" key a few times? Is someone timing how quickly you can post? All you're really saying is, "My need convenience of shaving 2 seconds off my posting time outweighs my need to make myself understood."

Do you skip the caps when you write in cursive, also?

[ellis555]

pldennison-

i guess we'd have to ask GOD to find out if he/she considers it his/her name, now wouldn't we?

you said:
"'My need [for, of?] convenience of shaving 2 seconds off my posting time outweighs my need to make myself understood.'"

and also:
"Anyway, it denotes a lack of respect for your reading audience."

wouldn't typing "2" instead of "two" denote this same lack of respect? and, as i mentioned in my previous post, i attempt to alleviate any potential signs of a lack of respect by capitalizing names (and i do notice that your name contains no caps). i view not using the "shift" key constantly along the lines of using abbreviations such as "caps". i don't see anyone complaining about this, so why is my lack of caps a sign of disrespect?

regarding the first of your quotes contained in this post, how does a lack of caps interfere with comprehension on the part of my readers. maybe i've underestimated some of you, but i've been assuming everyone here can handle not having words capitalized without suffering any impairment to their comprehension skills. in fact, i'd think that the complete omission of words, maybe "for", would hinder understanding a little more.

ellis

[NicePete]

Ellis, think of it as a purely visual thing. Paragraphs of prose without capital letters are harder for me to see, and therefore read.

And gee whiz, the amount of effort it takes to press a shift key is pretty neglible, isn't it?

>And gee whiz, the amount of effort it takes to press a shift key is pretty neglible, isn't it?

Well, lets take pldennison's example of 2 seconds. According to his info, he's posted 852 times. That works out to about 28 minutes. so if you didn't use any capitalization you might have a spare half hour now. and if you didnt use punctuation either you might be able to add an extra 25 mins
andifyouelimnatedspacingandpostedenough
youmightcomeupwithawholeextraday
andyoucouldpostmanymoretimesinthat
extradaybut
thatsmootasnoonewouldreadanyofyourposts

(Bad Mojo. Write too many letters in one line. But Lynn fix.)

[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]


[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]

[Mojo]

And screw up the MB in the process. Apologies to all- that wasn't my intention

[pldennison]

OK, ellis, take a peek into the Bible and see if you can figure out whether it is a name or a job title. Here are a few clues to keep in mind: "Yahweh," "Jehovah," "Adonai," "I am the LORD your God." Anyway, that part of this discussion is inconsequential; suffice to say that within the constraints of the Judeo-Christian religion, his name is not "God."

In any case, to start with, "caps" may be an abbreviation, but it is perfectly acceptable in both spoken and written communication, particularly in the media/broadcasting/publishing worlds. Simply avoiding capitalizing any words, especially at the beginnings of sentences, is rarely considered a good communication skill anywhere. It's simply lazy. I can't imagine that it takes any serious effort or expenditure or energy to hit the "Shift" key. And, in fact, I nearly always skip posts by posters who don't use it.

[ellis555]

well, pldennison, i still fail to see why not pressing the "shift" key is any lazier than not taking the time to type out "two."

Now, if you'd simply taken the same tack as Frankd6, and answered my question civily, I might have taken the (admittedly minor) time to use capital letters in addressing your points. Instead, you were an asshole and tried to show off your "superior" intellect. I asked a simple question. I realize that this is the Pit, but it didn't seem to be a very flame-filled thread. Therefore, I don't think it was too far-fetched for me to expect a civil reply. Instead, you responded with a flame, and a poorly thought-out one at that. Next time, proof-read before you post if you're trying to look smarter than another member of the Teeming Millions.

ellis

[Byzantine]

"Byz, keep in mind that I consider "fuck you" a pleasant invitation," TennHippie said, his voice weak with longing.

"Again, fuck you," Byzantine whispered.



------------------
The moon looks on many flowers, the flowers on but one moon.

[NicePete]

Nyah, Nyah, Nyah Phil! I'm more civil than YOU!!! HA HA ha ha HA HA!

AND I'm a better writer! That's pretty high praise from a guy who won't capitalize.

------------------
"Owls will deafen us with their incessant hooting!" W. Smithers

[pldennison]

Yeah, Frank, but you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.

I, on the other hand, am merely ugly. Or, I shall be sober in the morning. Or something to that effect.

[pldennison]

ellis, I didn't flame you, and I'm not Frank, so don't frigging tell me to write like him. When you get flamed, you'll know it.

[VegForLife]

well, pldennison, i still fail to see
why not pressing the "shift" key is any
lazier than not taking the time to type
out"two."

Because "two" and "2" are visually equal,
while the absence of a capital letter at
the beginning of a sentence forces the
reader to do a double-take if they missed
the period in between. You are therefore
being lazy in that you are forcing your
reader to work harder at understanding you
than you worked in the first place.

Rich

(trembling with anticipation)
Byz, hope you don't mind that i don't always
use caps. i hear it's not the size of the "I"
that matters, anyway.
(he gasps eagerly)

[GOD]

Call me GOD, god, Goddess, Yahweh, Allah, Shiva H. Vishnu, I don't care! Just call me!

[Polycarp]

Veg, if someone is "missing a period" as a result of this board, it would be something for the record books!